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Just making reference to Treantmonk's guide:
The Spirit of the Beast
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-han dbook-part-2
First of all, I want to start off saying amazing guide! All of Treantmonks guides are amazing reference material, especially for druid since it has changed so much. I was reading it last night after my session of gaming last night when I hit 4th level and obtained wild shape , and now I want to try and figure out how is it best to use wild shape... I stumbled upon this
Shields: As of the current rules, Shield bonus to AC translates into Wildshape. As such, a large wooden shield seems like a pretty obvious starting item. As you progress, a magic shield should be of greater priority than magic armor, as the enhancement bonus to shield should also translate. Not needing a "wild" enchantment means you can open the door for other enchantments like Fortification, though you may just want the highest enhancement bonus possible instead.
I'm just wondering where exactly does it state that shield still applies in wild shape? First I thought I misread/misinterpreted that as it was 2:00 am when I was reading it, but I kept reading on;
How does it stack up?
Let's consider a 5th level fighter. He's probably sporting the 18 Strength, he's got BAB of 4, Full Plate +1, and a Greatsword +1. He's probably wearing a Ring of Protection +1 and has approximately 46 HP. His attack is +12 (+5 BAB, +4 Str, WF, +1 enhance, +1 Weap Tr) for 2d6+10 (+6 Str, +2 WS, +1 Enh, +1 Weap tr) Damage - that's 17 on an average hit. His AC is 23 (10+ 9 armor, +1 enh, +2 Dex, +1 deflection).So that's:
HP: 46
AC: 23
Attack: +12 2d6+10 (average 17)Let's compare a 5 level Spirit of the Beast.
He's got the attribute spread listed above for the 15 point attribute buy. He's Human as well. At level 4 he increased his Con to 14. He keeps a Greater Magic Fang up on himself and his Ape animal companion all the time, he also casts Barkskin twice before expected combats. He has a Ring of Protection +1, Wears a Large Shield +1, His feats are Toughness, Power attack, and Dodge.So when in combat, Wildshaped into a Deinonychus and flanking with his Ape companion we're looking at:
HP: 45 (Druid) 36 (Ape) (Druid HP assumes average HP rolls, toughness, Con 14, favored class bonus)
AC: 21 (Druid) 19 (Ape) (Druid AC 10+ 2 Nat, +2 Nat enh, +2 shield, +1 enh, +1 Def, +1 Dodge, +2 Dex)
Attack: +10/+10/+10+5 (Druid) +10/+10/+10 (ape) (Druid +3 BAB, +5 Str, +1 enh, +2 flank, -1 power attack)
Damage: 1d8+8/1d6+8/1d6+8/1d4+3 (Druid) average 41 1d6+9/1d6+9/1d6+9 (Ape) average 37. Total average 78
In the math above, you can see Treantmonk had added +2 from the shield and +1 from the shield's enchantment to the AC. I was reading over Transmutation and polymorph this morning the more I thought about it, and it says:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. ...
So I referenced the armor enchantment chart and re-read the wild enchant (LAST QUOTE I PROMISE!!!! LOL)
WILD
The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
So does that mean shields NEED to have the wild enchant? Treantmonk's guide seems to state otherwise.... believe me, I'd rather go with treantmonk's guide, but I need to justify it to my group as to why the bonuses apply. A lot of my party reads this forum as well so it would make great reference for next weeks session as well. Lastly, if the shield bonus does apply without requiring the WILD enchant, why in God's name would anybody put the WILD enchant on a shield?!
Sources cited:
Treantmonk's guide - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-han dbook-part-2
All material quoted: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
Shields don't grant an armor bonus; they grant a shield bonus. So when the rules say that "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function)", that means that a Ring of Protection or a shield both continue to work while wild shaped.
This does mean that there are several problems with the Wild description. Since a shield bonus does not cease to function when wild shaped, applying this to a shield is as useless, even though the text clearly expects it to be applied to shields.
Additionally, if you modify the transmutation rule to "(with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)", Wild is still not a useful enhancement for a shield, since it does not grant an armor bonus.
I can see two reasonable fixes, depending on whether you want druids to need Wild shields.
Shields need Wild in wild shape
Change the transmutation text to "(with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
Change the Wild text to "with this ability preserves his armor or shield bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape"
Shields do not need Wild in wild shape
Leave the transmutation text as is.
Change the Wild text to "Armor with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns."
Given that the Druid plus pet is averaging 78 damage compared with 17 for the fighter while only giving up +2 hit and 2 AC, requiring shields to have Wild option seem the more balanced option. The druid is now giving up 5 AC, and is more vulnerable when he goes into melee. (This is based on the comparison from the original post. At higher levels, this could easily change. It could also change at this level if the given fighter is notably suboptimal.)
Shields don't grant an armor bonus; they grant a shield bonus. So when the rules say that "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function)", that means that a Ring of Protection or a shield both continue to work while wild shaped.
This does mean that there are several problems with the Wild description. Since a shield bonus does not cease to function when wild shaped, applying this to a shield is as useless, even though the text clearly expects it to be applied to shields.
Additionally, if you modify the transmutation rule to "(with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)", Wild is still not a useful enhancement for a shield, since it does not grant an armor bonus.
I can see two reasonable fixes, depending on whether you want druids to need Wild shields.
Shields need Wild in wild shape
Change the transmutation text to "(with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
Change the Wild text to "with this ability preserves his armor or shield bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape"Shields do not need Wild in wild shape
Leave the transmutation text as is.
Change the Wild text to "Armor with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns."Given that the Druid plus pet is averaging 78 damage compared with 17 for the fighter while only giving up +2 hit and 2 AC, requiring shields to have Wild option seem the more balanced option. The druid is now giving up 5 AC, and is more vulnerable when he goes into melee. (This is based on the comparison from the original post. At higher levels, this could easily change. It could also change at this level if the given fighter is notably suboptimal.)
Personally, I do like Treantmonk's interpretation and I personally feel that the WILD enchant on armor should be for armor only. I know you're stating that "only giving up +2 hit and 2 AC" doesn't seem like much, but if you take away the shield, that gimps the druid down to 18 AC in Treantmonk's example. A rogue with a good dex and decent armor will have a higher AC... Heck, a wizard with Shield+Mage armor+ dex of 12 will have a higher AC...
I don't know about you, but the one thing that really deterred me from 4th edition was forcing people into roles. Why can't a druid/cleric be the "tank" ? Why does it need to be a paladin or fighter? In campaigns I run we all try and be as unique as possible... my party is compiled of:
A cavalier
A summoner
A wizard who is ONLY using utility spells
A ranger
and myself, the Druid... so I'm basically the tank with my animal companion since the cavalier does hit and run tactics most of the time (and does great damage!).
I guess I'll run it by my DM, but I figured that's where Treantmonk was getting the shield bonus from, is that it is considered a "shield" bonus, not an "armor" bonus.
@udalrich: or another option is making 100% clear that shield bonuses are a 'sub-type' of armor bonus, i.e. they count as armor bonus for everything except that they stack with non-shield armor bonus.
@udalrich: or another option is making 100% clear that shield bonuses are a 'sub-type' of armor bonus, i.e. they count as armor bonus for everything except that they stack with non-shield armor bonus.
So by that, you mean stack with Flat footed AC (obviously) & wildshape? Seems logical to me :)
So by that, you mean stack with Flat footed AC (obviously) & wildshape? Seems logical to me :)
no, those aren't bonus types to 'stack with', and armor bonus doesn't apply to either of those.
i'm not going to comment on whether or not they stack with your momma. :-)
So by that, you mean stack with Flat footed AC (obviously) & wildshape? Seems logical to me :)no, those aren't bonus types to 'stack with', and armor bonus doesn't apply to either of those.
i'm not going to comment on whether or not they stack with your momma. :-)
Let me rephrase
Shield + armor stack for flatfooted.
Shield still works in wildshape.
Correct?
Personally I think it's a minor mistake in game data.
What they wanted to happen was for rings of shielding or whatever
To function.
What they did not want was for a Shield itself to function.
But somewhere in the process they forgot to specifically mention a Shield itself.
Therefore, Shield does not function while wildshaped. Stop trying to O.P. the class again.
Second that.
It makes no sense for shields to function when you're wild shaped.
And since your referring to the wording (which should be more clear), then I believe you are mistaken in defining the Shield bonus from shields as a constant bonus. Shields provide a Shield bonus only while wielded, which it per se is not when wildshaped. No more than you don't get any bonus from a weapon held in your hand before wild shape.
EDIT: the wording should be more clear. It should state "bonusses from worn armor and shields cease to function". I can't image that the intend is for other items which grant a armor bonus, such as BoA, to cease functioning.
Well several magic items only provide their bonuses when worn in the appropriate slot and presumably one is not wearing the items any more then the shield. So using similar logic said magic items would also not grant their bonus when polymorphed.
I cannot agree. Your argument rests on the assumption that shield is worn exactly like magic items. Magic items that grants a constant bonus is passively filling a magic item slot. When wild shaping they meld into your new body, but the passive effect continues to work, since they're still a part of you.
Shields on the other hand, does require you to actively wield them in your hand, to give you a shield bonus. There don't happen to be a Shield slot like magic item slots from which you get the bonus, so the two things aren't really comparable. When wild shaping it seems quite clear that your no longer actively wielding the shield, thus the bonus subsides.I would like to hear arguments that explain why a shield should continue to function while polymorphed?
I really believe the intend of the rule to be undisputable, so I would enjoy to hear other perspectives (especially if they are not driven by a desire to abuse rule inconsistancies).
I see no reason why anything would or would not work when polymorphed. If you wish to make the argument that it seems unreasonable that shields work while polymorphed I find the use of some magic items similarly unreasonable (mostly eye ware). However I am not talking about that and am instead talking about if a shield constantly provides a bonus or if it needs to be activated. If you wish to argue intent then we are talking about different things. I would likely agree at least in part about the intent of the rules but again that I a diferent matter.If you can provide the rules that say that one needs do something to activate the shields bonus to AC besides having the shield properly equipped then that is a different story but barring that it would seem that a...
Well the basic description of armor and shield writes that you "use shields" compared to "wear armor". One being active the other passive.
You are asking me to provide a rule to prove that the bonus from shield is different from constant bonusses from magic items or armor, but such a rule is not necessary, since there is nothing that states that they are similar.I agree with your point on armor being a body slot just like magic item slots, but it seems to strenghten my point. You have a number of availiable slots which can grant you effects that are constant (armor, attribute increase and constant magic) or needs to be activated.
Since armor is similar to other kinds of constant bonusses, the exception is explicitly pointed out in the polymorp text.
Whatever you hold in your hands is not a slot like the others. Whether its a weapon or a shield, the uses depend on you wielding it and isn't just passively equipped.
Practically you might say that holding a shield and having gloves equipped is almost the same thing, but their definitions is different, so by the rules you conclude that the work similarly.
I personaly think the wild enchant to armor is too expencive anyway. Druids can't have wild armor until much higher levels. I would rather there be another enchant that could be given to armor that had the armor change shape with the druid so he was still wearing the armor and accured all the penelties and bonuses to go with it...it would be hard to fly or swim in full plate.
I think most people would agree that the shield bonus working while wildshaped makes no sence. But then every druid can get their Animated Large Wooden Shield and then it wouldn't matter. My Dwarven druid wanted to us a Great Axe anyway :P
Without something showing that a shield does not constantly provide a bonus then one must default to the text saying that shelds provide a bonus when used. The use of a shield is as far as I can tell strapping it to the forearm and holding. However as methods of wearing can obviously not be enforced as otherwise all things worn would not work.Also it seems that wearing a magic item counts as using said item for the purposes of activation so any worn magic items are used and activated by wearing them. This puts them in the same class as shields in that they must be used to provide a bonus.
I see no reason why a held item would be treated differently and no rules for treating a held item differently and so held items would be treated under the general rules for equipment.
Practically one might say that holding a shield and wearing gloves would be treated...
You reject my arguments with the point that I cannot refer to a specific rule stating a difference between shields and items.
But on the other hand you cannot refer to any rules other than 'generel rules'. Problem is that generel rules does not exist on this matter.It is nowhere said that equipment functions in this or that way. There are some rules concerning how magic items function, but as they are specific you can't just make a general rule of out them.
Furthermore there are no definition of 'constant bonusses' outside the abilities of magic items. So there is really no basis for applying the term to shields.
As there isn't any rules or definitions that can be applied to explain how the things work, there is no choice than to look at the intend of the rules.
I seems quite obvious to me that shields and armor work by covering parts of your body, thus making it more difficult to harm you. When you polymorph these disappear and no longer function. Magic items continue to function because.... well that they are magical and their use is not logically explained anyway.
The polymorph wording could surely be clearer, but I actually think that no use of shields is a given. Another interpretation really seems to be an attempt to exploit wholes in the wording of the rules. More prolematic would be players arguing that their armors special abilities still functions while polymorphed. The wording would allow this, but it would make no sense for a armor with the Shadow ability to provide a bonus to stealth while melded into the body.
Personally I think it's a minor mistake in game data.
What they wanted to happen was for rings of shielding or whatever
To function.
What they did not want was for a Shield itself to function.
But somewhere in the process they forgot to specifically mention a Shield itself.
Therefore, Shield does not function while wildshaped. Stop trying to O.P. the class again.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't want to make the class overpowered by any means - but I'll copy and paste what I put in Treantmonk's druid thread... i hate Hate HATE posting the same thing twice, but this thread is certainly getting more activity. So here it is:
I personally think that the whole shield aspect is a bit cheesy, but if you take it away, it really gimps the druids.
Lets take my level 4 druid for example. No magic items, some masterwork gear and that's about it. If I wildshape, this will be my armor:
Round one:
I wild shape to a medium creature...
10(base)+3(16 dex)+2(natural armor) = 15That is weak. My buddy who plays a wizard casts mage armor round 1 and has a 18 AC (he has a 18 dex, damn elves ;) ).
Round two:
I cast barkskin, I get a bonus of +2 so 17 AC totalMy wizard friend casts shield - he now has a AC of 22.
How is it a wizard is now a more viable tank than I am and I'm a melee class?
That being said a rogue with a decent amount of dex + studded leather will still beat me even after I buffed!
I'm even skeptical having the wild enchant even required for armor let alone shields. Lets say HYPOTHETICALLY That it's level 4, a fighter vs a druid with no magic gear square off and Wild isn't required on the armor.
Druid wild shape:
10(base) + 2 (natural armor) + 2 (shield) + 4 (hide armor) + 3 (16 dex) = 21
Fighter:
10(base) + 9 (full plate) + 2 (shield) + 1 (dex) + 1 (armor training if the warriors dex is 14 or higher) = 24
Soooooo how is it overpowered? Let alone the wild enchant is a +3 enchantment... that means if i wanted hide armor + the wild enchant I am paying MINIMUM 16,165 Gold for an additional +5 to his AC.
Bleh
As I mentioned, as a level 4 druid, if I wildshape right now, with Shield I would have a measly 17 AC. My wizard friend can pass that with a single casting of mage armor...
Insight folks?
edit: I just want to reiterate - I by no means am trying to find a way to break this class at all. It just seems that unless you are a spell casting druid, you are pretty much SOL since , as mentioned, the WILD enchant is so bloody expensive you won't be getting it till later levels so realistically you won't be an effective wild shaping druid till around level 10+. Maybe that was Paizo's intent? For now I'm using wild shape for scouting / shadowing allies when we try and spring ambushes on our enemies -we used our 13 yr old summoner(the character, not the actual player lol ;) ) as a bait for cloakers in our last session and I just circled around as an eagle.
Thanks again guys
As I mentioned, as a level 4 druid, if I wildshape right now, with Shield I would have a measly 17 AC. My wizard friend can pass that with a single casting of mage armor...Insight folks?
edit: I just want to reiterate - I by no means am trying to find a way to break this class at all. It just seems that unless you are a spell casting druid, you are pretty much SOL since , as mentioned, the WILD enchant is so bloody expensive you won't be getting it till later levels so realistically you won't be an effective wild shaping druid till around level 10+. Maybe that was Paizo's intent? For now I'm using wild shape for scouting / shadowing allies when we try and spring ambushes on our enemies -we used our 13 yr old summoner(the character, not the actual player lol ;) ) as a bait for cloakers in our last session and I just circled around as an eagle.
Thanks again guys
Well the level 4 druid can cast both Barkskin and Cat's Grace raising his AC to 19.
I definatly agree that the druids AC isn't very high at low levels.
Especially at levels 4 and 5 it isn't effective to wild shape for melee purposes. Your properly better of without it, and keeping your hide armor and using a quarterstaff with shillelagh cast on it. Or of course using your spells.
The melee druid is much more effective when he reaches level 6. With wildshape, getting three attacks with relatively high attack bonus on a charge gives you a rather good offensive potential. When you add your animal companion in the mix, my experience is that you go toe to toe with most melee characters.
I believe they make rather effective melee characters, but tanking is just not their thing.
If you want a good AC you'd have wait until you can afford a Wild Dragonsskin Full Plate. It might seem cheesy, but it will raise your AC to a point of decency. It properly won't happen until your level is quite high.
ahh so on the 3rd round of combat after all these spells are cast to buff himself (while at the same time would have been more effective cast on the fighter) he can finaly run into melee range and still get beat up with his sub par AC.
I guess anything else I say I would be just repeating myself from before.
ahh so on the 3rd round of combat after all these spells are cast to buff himself (while at the same time would have been more effective cast on the fighter) he can finaly run into melee range and still get beat up with his sub par AC.
I guess anything else I say I would be just repeating myself from before.
My primary point is that you are right: he is not a tank.
That being said, I still believe that he is a capable meleeist, especially after level 6.
It might seem wrong that the wizard can get a higher AC than the druid. But the wizard's AC isn't really going up much from this point.
Polymorphed characters do not retain shieldbonuses in their new form unless the new form is able to wield a shield.
Unlike armor shields are actively used items. They are not an extra armor that passively protects its user. Thus a druid does not retain a shield bonus to AC in wildshape (unless the new shape can wield the shield; such as an ape can).
You can't wield a shield while polymorphed into an animal any more than you can wield a sword.
You don't get the shield bonus to AC from the magic shield you're not wielding any more than you get the enhancement bonus to attack from the magic sword you're not wielding.
The shield is not intended to be used in wildshape. It is an uncorrected typo. As you can see even the Wild enhancement does not mention the shield bonus.
From the PrD
Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus(and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
You can't wield a shield while polymorphed into an animal any more than you can wield a sword.
You don't get the shield bonus to AC from the magic shield you're not wielding any more than you get the enhancement bonus to attack from the magic sword you're not wielding.
+1
The shield is not intended to be used in wildshape. It is an uncorrected typo. As you can see even the Wild enhancement does not mention the shield bonus.
From the PrD
Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus(and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
Wouldn't he be keeping it as it specifies armor and shields twice?
From the PrD
Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus(and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
The text clearly states both types of armor will provide their armor bonus.
The other interpretation I could see is that you would need to take a form that would be able to wield the shield or have limbs. ie an earth elemental has arms and therefor could have a shield equipped but a dog could not.
+1You can't wield a shield while polymorphed into an animal any more than you can wield a sword.
You don't get the shield bonus to AC from the magic shield you're not wielding any more than you get the enhancement bonus to attack from the magic sword you're not wielding.
+2
Shields do not generally provide an armor bonus.
True. They provide a bonus to armor class.
So if the shield can actually be wielded by the new wildshape form then you should be able to keep the benefits with the wild enchant.
Something to note is that it's a +3 enchant as well so definitely not cheap.
Normally armor and shields meld with the new shape a polymorphing character takes. This negates whatever defensive ability they might have. If the new form has limbs it can off course pick up a shield and benefit from it, just as a character in horse shape can benefit from being gitted with barding.
The +3 Wild ability causes armor or shields to change to fit the new form and remain equipped in stead of melding. Thus, armor still provides protection (just as a barding would). For shields it is different though. They do not meld either, but if the new form is incapable of using a shield the character cannot benefit from it. However if the new form is that of an ape the shield would still remain unmelded and useable.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your
forearm.
and
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to
your forearm and grip it with your hand.
and
BucklerShield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to
your forearm and grip it with your hand.
The new form must still meet the requirements of the equipment to be used and in this case must have hands and arms or another suitable replacement for such.
As far as druids and shields is concerned I would suggest investing in an animated shield in stead. It is more versatile and is even cheaper.
The new form must still meet the requirements of the equipment to be used and in this case must have hands and arms or another suitable replacement for such.
Not true. The rules specifically state otherwise.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function).
(emphasis mine)
So rings don't need fingers, amulets don't need necks, belts don't need waists, and shields don't need arms.
The best argument from a rules standpoint that shields do not work is that the wild enchantment can be applied to shields. However, there is no question that by the wording of the polymorph rules (as currently written - I would not be surprised if they were errated) only armor bonuses are excluded when wild shaped.
We can all guess what the rules as intended were, but only Jason can say for certain what was intended. Was the wording of Polymorph mistaken? Or the wording of "wild" enchantments? Fact is that currently we do not know, and currently the wording of the rules allows shields.
I would certainly understand a DM who houserules that shields do not work however. My guides do not guess at the intention of designers, but DMs are free to whenever they wish.
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Interesting. I never even noticed this tidbit before. I'd have to agree that RAW the shield would apply. That being said I could easily see the argument that shields are "armor" as well as they're in the same armor section of the Equipment chapter and Magic Items chapter. However as it stands in most places the rules seem to always mention "armor and shield," and in fact they are different feats to use.
I'd have to go with the RAW as it works, which is really interesting. However, like Treantmonk said earlier, I really don't think this is intended and might be errata-ed in the future.
The new form must still meet the requirements of the equipment to be used and in this case must have hands and arms or another suitable replacement for such.
Not true. The rules specifically state otherwise.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function).(emphasis mine)
So rings don't need fingers, amulets don't need necks, belts don't need waists, and shields don't need arms.
The best argument from a rules standpoint that shields do not work is that the wild enchantment can be applied to shields. However, there is no question that by the wording of the polymorph rules (as currently written - I would not be surprised if they were errated) only armor bonuses are excluded when wild shaped.
We can all guess what the rules as intended were, but only Jason can say for certain what was intended. Was the wording of Polymorph mistaken? Or the wording of "wild" enchantments? Fact is that currently we do not know, and currently the wording of the rules allows shields.
I would certainly understand a DM who houserules that shields do not work however. My guides do not guess at the intention of designers, but DMs are free to whenever they wish.
Thank you Treantmonk for putting into words that which I couldn't (and deleted a post over because i was banging my head). This is one of those wordings that have contradictions and appears to make an exception. The problem is that the exception is not explicitly clear. If it was worded that with the wild enchant the shield and armor continue to provide armor/shield bonuses while wild shaped I don't think there would be any confusion. Unfortunately the enchantment does not reference the shield bonus but rather only it's enhancement.
So I wonder if that means that if you have a +1 wild shield of Fortification (heavy) that you would not gain the shield bonus to ac or the enhancement bonus to ac (since you cannot actually wield the shield) but you would gain the benefits of Fortification (heavy).
The new form must still meet the requirements of the equipment to be used and in this case must have hands and arms or another suitable replacement for such.
Not true. The rules specifically state otherwise.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function).(emphasis mine)
So rings don't need fingers, amulets don't need necks, belts don't need waists, and shields don't need arms.
The best argument from a rules standpoint that shields do not work is that the wild enchantment can be applied to shields. However, there is no question that by the wording of the polymorph rules (as currently written - I would not be surprised if they were errated) only armor bonuses are excluded when wild shaped.
There is no need of errating. The discussion is founded on a fundamental oversigt. Shields do NOT provide a constant AC bonus and are thus, as you point out in the quote, not functional during polymorph.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in
order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing
a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look
through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat.
The rules state magic shields (thereby shields in general) are Use Activated items. By their very definition these cannot provide a constant bonus.
Since the rules already address the issue I do not think we can expect Jason spend his valuable time [no sarcasm intended] getting dragged into the discussion.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in
order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing
a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look
through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat.The rules state magic shields (thereby shields in general) are Use Activated items. By their very definition these cannot provide a constant bonus.
Since the rules already address the issue I do not think we can expect Jason spend his valuable time [no sarcasm intended] getting dragged into the discussion.
(2nd emphasis mine)
So your position is that a Ring of Protection ceases to function after wildshape because you have to wear the ring to activate it?
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in
order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing
a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look
through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat.The rules state magic shields (thereby shields in general) are Use Activated items. By their very definition these cannot provide a constant bonus.
Since the rules already address the issue I do not think we can expect Jason spend his valuable time [no sarcasm intended] getting dragged into the discussion.
(2nd emphasis mine)
So your position is that a Ring of Protection ceases to function after wildshape because you have to wear the ring to activate it?
Different items have different conditions of activation. To quote the rules again:
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in
order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing
a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look
through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat.
In order to provide protection a shield has to be used actively to block an attack. The rules actually state this. Specificly. When a shield is melded with your new form it does not have an actual physical presence and you can therefore not interpose it/block with it.
A ring or hat is activated once, i.e. when you put it on and from then on you are affected with a constant effect untill it somehow expires.
A shield is activated each time you direct it to counter an attack and therefore does not provide a constant bonus to AC.
Focusing your argumentation on hats and rings does not change the fact that the rules specificly state how and when a shield is activated. And the stated method of activation does not support shield bonuses applying when that item is melded in the creatures body
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Mmm... seems to me that you're taking more out of that than was put into it.
"Many use-activate items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. When "wear a ring" and "interpose a shield" are mentioned in the same sentence, don't use that sentence as evidence that you need to use a shield so it's not continually active.
Thus, use activated doesn't mean that it isn't a continually functioning item. Just because your shield has to be between you and the attack doesn't mean it's not still providing that magical and deflection bonus when no one's attacking you. Just that there's nothing for it to deflect.
A sentence of flavor text doth not a rule make. I don't see a line that says "A shield does not count as a continuously functioning item." All I see is a line that talks about how a shield is a use activated item, just like other continuously functioning magic items.
I understand what you're trying to say, but the flavor text about interposing a shield doesn't even address if it's constantly functioning or not. That's different from whether it's use activated or not.
As worded, you keep your shield bonus to ac.
Mmm... seems to me that you're taking more out of that than was put into it.
It seems to me you choosing to disregard logic as well as an actual rule.
"Many use-activate items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. When "wear a ring" and "interpose a shield" are mentioned in the same sentence, don't use that sentence as evidence that you need to use a shield so it's not continually active.
That is incorrect. You do not wear a shield. A shield is fastened to the arm and wielded - like a spiked gauntlet. You would never claim that a +1 holy spiked gauntlet is still active in animal form either.
Thus, use activated doesn't mean that it isn't a continually functioning item. Just because your shield has to be between you and the attack doesn't mean it's not still providing that magical and deflection bonus when no one's attacking you. Just that there's nothing for it to deflect.
Use activated can be a constant effect, but is not necesarily so. The item has to be "used" hence the name.
Shields do not provide a deflection bonus, neither when you are attacked nor when you are not.And yes, that is exactly what it means, otherwise attacks that pin a shield should not affact the shield bearer's AC, but only negate the ability to shield bash. (refference to 3.5 feats and abilities)
A sentence of flavor text doth not a rule make. I don't see a line that says "A shield does not count as a continuously functioning item." All I see is a line that talks about how a shield is a use activated item, just like other continuously functioning magic items.
How do you figure that as flavor text? It is a description of an in game term. THAT is a rule being exemplified, not flavor.
I understand what you're trying to say, but the flavor text about interposing a shield doesn't even address if it's constantly functioning or not. That's different from whether it's use activated or not.
The actual functionality of shields is decribed on PRPG p. 150, 151 and 152. They plaimly state that a shield is strapped to the arm and held in hand.
As worded, you keep your shield bonus to ac.
Obviously, I disagree.
In order to provide protection a shield has to be used actively to block an attack. The rules actually state this. Specificly. When a shield is melded with your new form it does not have an actual physical presence and you can therefore not interpose it/block with it.A ring or hat is activated once, i.e. when you put it on and from then on you are affected with a constant effect untill it somehow expires.
A shield is activated each time you direct it to counter an attack and therefore does not provide a constant bonus to AC.
Actually, shields don't require you to specifically counter an attack to provide an AC bonus. If they did, you wouldn't get your shield bonus when you were flat-footed.
Actually, shields don't require you to specifically counter an attack to provide an AC bonus. If they did, you wouldn't get your shield bonus when you were flat-footed.
In order to provide protection a shield has to be used actively to block an attack. The rules actually state this. Specificly. When a shield is melded with your new form it does not have an actual physical presence and you can therefore not interpose it/block with it.A ring or hat is activated once, i.e. when you put it on and from then on you are affected with a constant effect untill it somehow expires.
A shield is activated each time you direct it to counter an attack and therefore does not provide a constant bonus to AC.
The shield has to be available for use is what I think he means. A defending weapon as an example does not take an action in order for you to get the AC bonus from it, but I always thought of it as a weapon that guides your hand when parrying an attack.
I hope that explanation suffices. I know what I want to say, but I am having a hard time relaying the words like I want to.
Actually, shields don't require you to specifically counter an attack to provide an AC bonus. If they did, you wouldn't get your shield bonus when you were flat-footed.
Nonetheless that is what p. 458 says.
Both armor and shields represent physical obstacles for your attacker to overcome and when you polymorph, those obstacles meld=disappear, and so does their protection.
The inclusion of wild enchantments for shields should have been enough evidence.
The shield has to be available for use is what I think he means. A defending weapon as an example does not take an action in order for you to get the AC bonus from it, but I always thought of it as a weapon that guides your hand when parrying an attack.
I hope that explanation suffices. I know what I want to say, but I am having a hard time relaying the words like I want to.
Another good example. Defending weapons are, to my mind, completely in par with shields with concern to this.
Nonetheless that is what p. 458 says.
The rule you quoted has nothing to do with the "activated item" portion of polymorph however. It merely is pointing out that items must be used to be activated, whether it's putting the magic hat on your head, or putting the magic ring on your finger.
What it doesn't state is that a shield does not provide a constant bonus to AC. You said that, rules don't. Rules don't support that interpretation since the shield's bonus to AC protects automatically even when you can't take an action (ie flatfooted)
Both armor and shields represent physical obstacles for your attacker to overcome and when you polymorph, those obstacles meld=disappear, and so does their protection.
You are making an assumption. If this was in the rules anywhere, someone would have found it by now.
The inclusion of wild enchantments for shields should have been enough evidence.
It's evidence that a mistake has been made, your making an assumption that you know where that mistake is.
Wild enchantment on a shield provides a bonus when wildshaped that according to the rules, you already get.
You could create a houserule where the wild enchantment is required in order to get that bonus in the first place. I would understand such a houserule, I would get the logic behind the houserule. If my DM created that houserule I would agree it was a good houserule to make.
However, it would be a houserule.
If you are trying to convince me that it makes sense for shields to not work with wildshape because the protection they provide is similar to armor protection, then you are speaking to the choir.
However, errata would be required to add "and shield bonuses" to the polymorph rules that exempt armor bonuses from working when polymorphed in order to have the rules support that logic.
Of course, that's NOT the point you are trying to make. You are saying that shields unlike armor require actions to use, which isn't supported by the mechanics of the rules. If your character is paralyzed, you get your shield bonus. If your character is unconscious, you get your shield bonus. If your character is attacked from behind, you get your shield bonus. The rules are quite clear that the only time your shield bonus does not apply is with touch attacks.
If you are looking for the way shields work in Pathfinder, the closest analogy you could make is armor. Mechanically they work largely the same way (both work when flat-footed but not against touch, always active)
The shield has to be available for use is what I think he means. A defending weapon as an example does not take an action in order for you to get the AC bonus from it, but I always thought of it as a weapon that guides your hand when parrying an attack.
Defending weapons require a free action to use defensively. If shields required use of a free action to activate I would agree with the analogy.
However, unlike defending weapons, a shield provides a constant bonus to AC and requires no action in order to provide a shield bonus to your AC.
Can you use a free action when flat-footed? Nope. Do you get your shield bonus flat-footed? Yep.
Can you turn the defensive bonus from a defending weapon on and off? Yep. Can you turn the defensive bonus from a shield on and off? Nope.
Not the same.
Another good example. Defending weapons are, to my mind, completely in par with shields with concern to this.
Oh good. We're done then?
Of course, that's NOT the point you are trying to make. You are saying that shields unlike armor require actions to use,...
Not really. I said shields have to be "used" in order to provide protection. And the closest we come to a RAW definition of that is p. 150-152 and p. 458.
The inclusion of wild enchantments for shields should have been enough evidence.It's evidence that a mistake has been made, your making an assumption that you know where that mistake is.
Wild enchantment on a shield provides a bonus when wildshaped that according to the rules, you already get.
By that logic, you also keep your bonus from masterwork weapons, while wild shaping. The text just states: "Wielding it [masterwork weapon] provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls."
The text does nowhere point out that the bonus is only for attack rolls made with that weapon. And if shield are still wielded, so is the weapon.But just like shields, I have no problem assuming this was a mistake in the rules. If I didn't it would clearly be a deliberate attempt to abuse a hole in the rules.
Was the wording of Polymorph mistaken? Or the wording of "wild" enchantments? Fact is that currently we do not know, and currently the wording of the rules allows shields.
Your argument is based on the logic that shields do not provide a bonus type called "armor bonus". This is correct. But you're assuming the word "armor" always means the same thing in the rules. It does not.
Since shields are listed in the armor section, they're grouped with armor as a category. Thus, according to the rules, since shields and armor fall under the armor section (in both the equipment and magic item sections), they're both considered armor -- though the AC bonus they grant is different than their category type. A bonus from either type of armor might be different (armor bonus vs. shield bonus), but ultimately the bonus comes from armor.
So, in effect, the question is simply unresolved if we look only at the polymorph rules. This is called semantic dissonance -- armor bonus is a game term, but the term "armor" is used in multiple ways. So it is inappropriate to automatically assume that one particular interpretation of the semantic dissonance is correct.
Thankfully, we have a separate example that clarifies the situation:
Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
This clearly indicates that armor is a category, not just a specific type of bonus. In this case, they're referencing armor bonus as both suit of armor (e.g. breastplate) and a shield -- even though shields obviously provide a shield bonus. Rephrased a different way, the armor bonus a shield provides is a shield bonus.
Yes, it's confusing. I agree it would be easy to add "armor and shield" to the various places that reference the "armor" category. In many places (e.g. magic vestment, the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat) this is already done. But it's not done everywhere. See the Magic Items Creation section -- you have to read to the bottom of the second paragraph under "Creating Magic Armor" to see that it is referring to the armor category of items -- which includes shields. There is no "Creating Magic Shields" section.