On that note, will we import some variant of Skill Challenges? The idea of the group having to come up with 3 out of 5 successes to do something nifty is... well, nifty!
Well, Unearthed Arcana had rules for giving skills more spotlight time. They called it Complex Skill Checks (needing so many successes before too many failures, etc).
Personally, I've tried DMing something like that, and unless it's written properly it just feels like you are rolling a bunch of times back to back.
I rather like the idea of having to roll different skill checks, with the reasons for them.
A trap encounter is already kind of like a mini-skill challenge, since you need to roll a perception check to find it and then a disable device check to disarm it, however you could approach it like this:
Door Encounter
- Perception check to notice the poison gas trap in the handle.
- Disable Device to disarm the trap.
- Stealth to do this quietly.
- Disable Device to open the lock.
- Stealth to open the door quietly (without creaking).
- Perception to notice the vase that was put close to the door on purpose so that it would fall if anyone opened from this side.
- Sleight of hand to catch the vase before it hits the ground and shattering, unleashing who knows what kind of magic, or at the very least alerting the guards in the area of what's going on.
Technically, all you'd need to do is kick in the door to open it. However, those skill checks allow you to do so without alerting anyone's attention, without dealing with the fallout of the trap, and if you roll high enough, without even disturbing the trap so that you leave no trace.
.
Technically, that's all encounter design, and doesn't really need new game mechanics to pull it off.
It would be neat to have a book on making these kinds of encounters for non-standard (read: non-kick-in-the-door) games.
Well, Unearthed Arcana had rules for giving skills more spotlight time. They called it Complex Skill Checks (needing so many successes before too many failures, etc).
Personally, I've tried DMing something like that, and unless it's written properly it just feels like you are rolling a bunch of times back to back.
It ends up making a tighter bell curve, so that less skilled PC's can't realistically hope to get to it. Imagine a DC 25 series of skill checks, where 3/5 successes are needed. A PC with a +10 to that skill might hit it one in four tries, but a skill check at that level would be almost impossible.
I rather like the idea of having to roll different skill checks, with the reasons for them.
A trap encounter is already kind of like a mini-skill challenge, since you need to roll a perception check to find it and then a disable device check to disarm it, however you could approach it like this:
Door Encounter
- Perception check to notice the poison gas trap in the handle.
- Disable Device to disarm the trap.
- Stealth to do this quietly.
- Disable Device to open the lock.
- Stealth to open the door quietly (without creaking).
- Perception to notice the vase that was put close to the door on purpose so that it would fall if anyone opened from this side.
- Sleight of hand to catch the vase before it hits the ground and shattering, unleashing who knows what kind of magic, or at the very least alerting the guards in the area of what's going on.Technically, all you'd need to do is kick in the door to open it. However, those skill checks allow you to do so without alerting anyone's attention, without dealing with the fallout of the trap, and if you roll high enough, without even disturbing the trap so that you leave no trace.
.
Technically, that's all encounter design, and doesn't really need new game mechanics to pull it off.
It would be neat to have a book on making these kinds of encounters for non-standard (read: non-kick-in-the-door) games.
But unless you have two or more rogues in the party, most of that encounter would be done by one party member hunched over a mechanism and the others hovering over him telling him to watch out for that poison, etc. etc.
IMHO this is the one thing where 4E did well on to improve. Negotiations work really well when everyone in the party is rolling a skill check, one for history, one for diplomacy, one for intimdate, etc. etc. and at least 3/5 of the checks need to succeed, for example.
Except that the 4ed Skill Challenges, as written, are a very poor rule system.
That was the one that didn't have to make sense right? E.g. to get into the castle you can attempt knowledge checks to know about secret entrances, climb checks to get across the wall, bribe checks to get the guards to let you pass, and so on.... and you had to get X successes in any order before you got Y failures - but the successes only had to be the right number, they didn't have any casual connection (like "I bribe the guard on the battlement to to look the other way, jump over the moat and climb the wall with two checks" no need! You could have done it with 4 climb checks even though you would have been seen, and never got across the moat)
No, we can't have teamwork benefits. Now that D&D are outlawed in Wisconsin prisons, these cannot be included or else we can't get Pathfinder in there either. Think as a team, people!
/snark
For a example of how skill challenges can be run in Pathfinder, check out Crypt of the Everflame. Specifically, the section on getting to the bottom of the scree slope near the start of the adventure.
For those without the module, care to summarise it?
Teamwork benefits? I'm not sure what you mean... are you asking for actual tangible stat bonuses for using teamwork in encounters? That sounds like flanking to me. As far as teamwork goes, when a good group of players works well in tandem, you -will- see a teamwork benefit in the encounter going smoothly. When groups run chaotically with each player having their character doing their own thing, the encounter goes from smooth to potentially terrible. Teamwork is it's own reward already.
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Teamwork benefits? I'm not sure what you mean... are you asking for actual tangible stat bonuses for using teamwork in encounters? That sounds like flanking to me. As far as teamwork goes, when a good group of players works well in tandem, you -will- see a teamwork benefit in the encounter going smoothly. When groups run chaotically with each player having their character doing their own thing, the encounter goes from smooth to potentially terrible. Teamwork is it's own reward already.
Actually I was referring to the an actual Game Mechanic that was introduced in 3.5 that allowed a group with certain pre-requisites to purchase (though I can't remember what they actually gave up, whether it was a skill point or what) a "Teamwork Benefit" that gave them certain advantages. Usually, it was one "Leader" with certain Pre-reqs and everyone else in the group had to have a secondary pre-req. They were featured again in the Forge of War in the Eberron setting, but I can't, for the life of me remember what book they first appeared in...
Player's Handbook II
Except that the 4ed Skill Challenges, as written, are a very poor rule system.That was the one that didn't have to make sense right? E.g. to get into the castle you can attempt knowledge checks to know about secret entrances, climb checks to get across the wall, bribe checks to get the guards to let you pass, and so on.... and you had to get X successes in any order before you got Y failures - but the successes only had to be the right number, they didn't have any casual connection (like "I bribe the guard on the battlement to to look the other way, jump over the moat and climb the wall with two checks" no need! You could have done it with 4 climb checks even though you would have been seen, and never got across the moat)
Good lord do I remember that. We had to do it in a couple of the 4.0 modules I played in when my wife and I dropped by our FLGS for worldwide D&D Days/Free RPG Days. Brought back nightmares of Dogs in the Vineyard. Terrible, unappealing system.
I remember the Teamwork rules from the PHBII. Wasn't that impressed with them, but I also haven't tried using them. They might be fun in actual play...
For combat teamwork, the new feats at the end of the inquisitor playtest look very promising. Myself as a rogue, and one other player as an inquisitor are begging to take them together since we both like to flank the same targets :)
The 4e skill challenges was their attempt at giving xp for roleplaying, and it was a terrible job.