Heh, my RL Kingmaker group will be made using [4d6, re-roll ones, drop the lowest] for their stat array, it's what we always do. Max hit points and extra baddies works well.
We always use the same method. This time however will the first time we do a point buy (Standard 20).
Heh, my RL Kingmaker group will be made using [4d6, re-roll ones, drop the lowest] for their stat array, it's what we always do. Max hit points and extra baddies works well.We always use the same method. This time however will the first time we do a point buy (Standard 20).
Actually, standard point-buy is 15.
My Kingmaker group built their characters using the standard point-buy and are doing fine so far. I must say, however, that it should be interesting how well they can cope given that they don't have a cleric, nor rogue and no party member has a strength above 12. Though, the Gnome's bear animal companion is quite a beast in combat so far.
Human Ranger (archery)
Human Paladin
Half-Elf Sorcerer (Fey bloodline)
Gnome Druid
Actually, standard point-buy is 15.
My Kingmaker group built their characters using the standard point-buy and are doing fine so far. I must say, however, that it should be interesting how well they can cope given that they don't have a cleric, nor rogue and no party member has a strength above 12. Though, the Gnome's bear animal companion is quite a beast in combat so far.
Human Ranger (archery)
Human Paladin
Half-Elf Sorcerer (Fey bloodline)
Gnome Druid
I stand corrected. 15 is too low imho (ymmv). :)
Your group looks well balanced without the cleric, between heals from the Paladin and Druid along with Paladin Mercies to cure various ailments, you should be ok. Heavy armor on the Paladin and the bear should take care of any meat shield issues.
Did I miss something? Is there some guideline for which level of point buy to use for Adventure Paths in general or Kingmaker in particular?
I have time to fix it before my first game on Saturday but I was unaware of a guideline for character stat generation and just went with the Epic as that is always our fallback. I have 7 PCs though and I hate it when the adventure is a cakewalk and I don't have a lot of time to rewrite which is why I chose Kingmaker.
Well, I'm sure someone official will correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that the adventure paths are written for the standard point-buy system. 15 points forces the PCs into some tough choices, but giving even 20 points is like a free "headband of intellect" (or the equivalent) at first level which IMO is too much.
My party (described above) is having a pretty easy time so far and their characters are far from optimized. Of course the CR 6 capstone encounter might be another story if they're only 3rd level at the time. I guess we'll see.
If you have 7 PCs, you'll have all the bases covered anyway. If you play all the encounters as written, they'll be able to muscle their way through the entire AP without much thought - it'll be even easier if they have 20 or more points during character creation. I believe James suggested adding 50% more hp to creatures if you have a large party (6+ IIRC) to make it a bit more interesting.
Did I miss something? Is there some guideline for which level of point buy to use for Adventure Paths in general or Kingmaker in particular?
I have time to fix it before my first game on Saturday but I was unaware of a guideline for character stat generation and just went with the Epic as that is always our fallback. I have 7 PCs though and I hate it when the adventure is a cakewalk and I don't have a lot of time to rewrite which is why I chose Kingmaker.
I think the confusion comes from the point buy system being different between Pathfinder and 3.5. In 3.5 a standard 25 point buy might get you 16, 14, 13, 10, 10, 8. A standard 15 point PRPG point buy might get you 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8. "Epic" is definitely not "Standard", and the AP's are always geared toward "Standard" points with "Medium" advancement. It is probably a good idea to have a line in the Player's guide suggesting this for future APs.
I don't think the Point Buy system was in the SRD, just as the experience table was not, so they had to create a new, if similar, system for PRPG.
I would also note that with 7 players, you'll need to increase the number of enemies they face since the paths are always geared toward a 4 character party.
HA! Noober.
Good times.
Was the technicolor NPC who foreshadowed Neverwinter Nights actually named "Lord Foreshadow"?
Edit: Also love how Bioware dropped a Minsc/Boo reference into DragonAge's loading screen :)
[threadjack]
In Mass Effect 2, you can purchase a space hamster for the captain's quarters of the Normandy. When you examine it, it even makes the peep noise Boo would make if you looked at him in Minsc's inventory. I thought that was really neat.. My friends and I could never get enough of Minsc/Boo.[/threadjack]
I do believe a Noober-like character will eventually appear at Oleg's... Let's see if my Gorum-worshipping party can stay their blades. Besides that, I think the NPC guide might be serving as a source of random NPCs for the PCs to encounter.
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Re: Point Buy
I usually do 4d6-drop-lowest for my games (sometimes with reroll 1's), but since this is my first time running an AP, I decided to go with the "standardization" of point buy. 15 felt a little low to me, since my players are often spoiled when it comes to ability scores - they absolutely refuse to have a stat under 10, and one player kept talking about how he was making his PC "stupid" by putting a 10 in Int.
My fault for spoiling them I suppose - give them an inch, etc.
Anyhow, I decided to go with a 17 point buy. This is essentially the same thing as a standard elite array, only with a 10 instead of an 8, allowing my players to avoid the dreaded negative modifier and still take an 18 if they really want to (everything else would be at a 10).
It seemed to work for them...although one player, unaccustomed to point-buy, was apparently overwhelmed by the decision making process and came back with a PC whose stat array before racial adjustments was 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13.
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*snip*
It seemed to work for them...although one player, unaccustomed to point-buy, was apparently overwhelmed by the decision making process and came back with a PC whose stat array before racial adjustments was 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13.
I look forward to hearing the tale of King Joe the Slightly Above Average!
I look forward to hearing the tale of King Joe the Slightly Above Average!
Nah...that would be King Joe the Even-Handed and Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None. :-)
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I look forward to hearing the tale of King Joe the Slightly Above Average!Nah...that would be King Joe the Even-Handed and Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None. :-)
No, the first session was on Easter, and we were eating malted milk chocolate eggs during char gen, and it influenced the naming of the PC...
So, it'll actually be the tale of King Malt Eggbert the Slightly Above Average.
My players are about halfway through stolen lands, and are asking for expansions to the tradepost. Before I start creating a host of NPCs to fill the shoes the PCs put forward, I would like to ask if there will be many NPCs in the next AP that do some of these things:
- Construction/engineering (They want to expand the trade post, and the cleric even got Oleg on board with a few exceptional diplomacy skill checks after completing most of his and Svetlana's quests)
- Lumberjacks and woodwork (Can't build without materials)
- Smithing, general, armor and weapon (Four of the five PCs are rather combat oriented, and would like the option to have custom crafted gear)
- Animal handler/tender (They "liberated" the bandits' horses, filling up the stable more than completely, and making a need for an expansion, as well as a dedicated handler to groom, shoe and feed the horses)
- Prospecting and mining (They found the gold vein, and are all gung ho about having their own goldmine)
Now I imagine the next part has this more fully covered, so should I just invent some delay for now ("Your appplication has been recieved, please allow 4-6 months for processing"), or are the planned NPCs (if any) for these roles minor enough to not cause a problem if I were to make them myself?
Creative Director
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The Adventure Path does introduce a lot of NPCs. Among them are carpenters and lumberjacks and smiths. Very few of them are statted up. If you introduce NPCs to fill these roles now, they should fit in fine. After all, a kingdom will certainly have multiple carpenters and lumberjacks and smiths!
Like Kamelguru, Im curious about this as well.
One question James....
Thanks
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Creative Director
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Like Kamelguru, Im curious about this as well.
One question James....
** spoiler omitted **Thanks
What happens to Oleg's post is 100% up to your players and how they want to develop it. We're trying VERY hard to avoid making assumptions about how a PC kingdom develops, which is making some of the latter adventures... tricky... to develop.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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What happens to Oleg's post is 100% up to your players and how they want to develop it. We're trying VERY hard to avoid making assumptions about how a PC kingdom develops, which is making some of the latter adventures... tricky... to develop.Like Kamelguru, Im curious about this as well.
One question James....
** spoiler omitted **Thanks
Ain't that the truth. A lot of the "war" part of War of the River Kings had to be pretty vague.
But it will nevertheless be AWESOME! :)
I only noticed the alignment of the DMs map on page 14 of Stolen Land after reading this thread, but I wondered before.
If I compare that to the players map of Brevoy (players guide p.11), it seems that the Narlmarches reach into Brevoy, with Olegs trading post being situated just east of the easternmost tip of the forest. The Shrike river bend on the southern edge of the players map should be the bend on which the Sootscale caverns (area Y) are situated. The East Sellen river should be just off the DMs map, I think.
Two questions come to my mind:
1. Do the Narlmarches extend into Brevoy? If so, this area would/should be off-limits for founding a new kingdom. I know that game maps are not necessarily to be seen as accurate, but the players map gives the impression that it is meant to be accurate. I will ignore the border shown on the players map and just define the Narlmarches as being outside.
2. Where does the South Rostland Road lead to? To Restov is obvious, but the other end? If the destination is New Stetven, it should see quite some traffic, contradicting the remote position of Olegs fort. The players map would give me the impression that a road from Restov to New Stetven would run quite straight and rather to the northeast of the Narlmarches. But what other destination could be reached? What else is in southern Rostland justifying a road? Does it lead to the East Sellen and eventually to Silverhall? Or is it just a loop connecting to the road from Restov to New Stetven in two different places?
Stefan
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Creative Director
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1. Do the Narlmarches extend into Brevoy? If so, this area would/should be off-limits for founding a new kingdom. I know that game maps are not necessarily to be seen as accurate, but the players map gives the impression that it is meant to be accurate. I will ignore the border shown on the players map and just define the Narlmarches as being outside.
No. The actual border between the Stolen Lands and Brevoy may look like a straight line on the big scale map, and on some maps in world I would assume that overly-ambitious cartographers might fudge borders... the fact is that there's very little of the maps in Kingmaker that are officially in Brevoy. Only the top row of hexes in the rightmost map area (the Nomen Heights, in Pathfinder #33) are officially part of Brevoy.
2. Where does the South Rostland Road lead to? To Restov is obvious, but the other end? If the destination is New Stetven, it should see quite some traffic, contradicting the remote position of Olegs fort. The players map would give me the impression that a road from Restov to New Stetven would run quite straight and rather to the northeast of the Narlmarches. But what other destination could be reached? What else is in southern Rostland justifying a road? Does it lead to the East Sellen and eventually to Silverhall? Or is it just a loop connecting to the road from Restov to New Stetven in two different places?
To the right of the map it leads to Restov, by way of a small village called Nivakta's Crossing. This route will appear in Pathfinder #33's map. When it heads off the top of the page from Oleg's it winds back into Rostland on a meandering route; the road along this area is poorly maintained though. The "road" shown on the map is really little more than a trail, though, and the vast majority of the traffic it sees are hunters and trappers who use it to go back to civilization during the winter or whatever.
So, basically, if the PCs want to follow the road off the map and out of the Stolen Lands, where they go is up to you.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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1. Do the Narlmarches extend into Brevoy? If so, this area would/should be off-limits for founding a new kingdom. I know that game maps are not necessarily to be seen as accurate, but the players map gives the impression that it is meant to be accurate. I will ignore the border shown on the players map and just define the Narlmarches as being outside.No. The actual border between the Stolen Lands and Brevoy may look like a straight line on the big scale map, and on some maps in world I would assume that overly-ambitious cartographers might fudge borders... the fact is that there's very little of the maps in Kingmaker that are officially in Brevoy. Only the top row of hexes in the rightmost map area (the Nomen Heights, in Pathfinder #33) are officially part of Brevoy.
Interesting.
I had assumed the "South Rostland Road" was in Rostland.
The PCs in my campaign had wanted to claim those hexes and get free roads in em, but I gave the ixnay on that cuz I assumed it was part of their parent country. I may have to put out a revised grant of territory around #3, when Brevoy starts to dial back on its involvement.
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Creative Director
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Interesting.
I had assumed the "South Rostland Road" was in Rostland.
The PCs in my campaign had wanted to claim those hexes and get free roads in em, but I gave the ixnay on that cuz I assumed it was part of their parent country. I may have to put out a revised grant of territory around #3, when Brevoy starts to dial back on its involvement.
An element of this actually does pop in on the map for the Nomen Heights; if the PCs try to claim any of the top row of hexes (which includes areas like Restov), they're basically declaring war on Brevoy. That takes the AP in an entirely different direction than what we're building it to do.
As for Brevoy dialing back their involvement, that's destined to happen anyway as internal trouble in that nation starts to make the threat of a civil war more and more likely...
Thanks James, so Im assuming the PCs can basically operate out of anywhere as they become wardens of the area via some sort of incoming land grant.
Expanding Oleg's isnt working for me as there is no river, they would have to import water to drink, bathe, etc if Oleg's became a town. In this case I may keep Oleg's as a halfway point (truck stop?)/rest area for traders headed to the new town, which will most likely get placed in a Kamelands Hex at a river, or a forest hex (most likely Pervilash's).
Im leaning to the forest hex as this will keep the place within a hex or two of Johd's newfound shrine of Erastil.
I could also leave day to day hamlet building there to the NPC from Jason's Bloodsworn Vale module (i forgot his name atm) ;) as I may incorporate that module into the campaign, unless level 6 gets kind of busy in Kingmaker. Cant hurt to have that NPC around anyway.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I wouldn't worry too much about "hey, this hex doesn't have a river" meaning the trading post is going to have trouble having water. Remember every hex is like 150 square miles. There will be tons of unmarked creeks, streams, springs, ponds, and small lakes scattered all over. Just look at a local map of your city or county and see how many little bodies of water show up. They're not big enough to show up on a large-scale map, but there will be plenty of them there.
Any kind of settlement, trading post or otherwise, is going to be built somewhere near water, just as a necessity of humanoid survival. Washing, drinking, etc. Yeah, they could use wells if need be, but the Stolen Lands are pretty well-watered terrain.
I say all that to say that Oleg's undoubtedly has a water source next to it, whether it be a stream or small lake, and that all of those plains and hills and forest hexes you see will have plenty of small water sources in them.
I'll also point this out, though, when it comes to building improvements in your kingdom or in your cities once you get to KM #2 - don't fixate on the idea of single buildings. If you build a farm in your kingdom, it doesn't mean you've build one barn and one farm house and one stable. It means you've devoted the resources and productive work of that hex and the people settling in it to farming.
If you build a shop in a town, it doesn't mean you have built one clapboard general store. It means you have built a neighborhood in your city where the primary activity is shops and trade.
It's easy to forget when you say you build a farm or a shop that it's not a single building. It is just a convenient abstraction for what the people and resources in that area, be it a kingdom hex or a city square, are doing.
THE POINT?
Don't fret if you don't see a water source next to Oleg's. It's there if you want it to be. I could see if you didn't want them to allow the city to have a port or that kind of water frontage, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the town is perpetually athirst just because the overland map doesn't show a river in its hex.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As for Brevoy dialing back their involvement, that's destined to happen anyway as internal trouble in that nation starts to make the threat of a civil war more and more likely...
Heh. I love the irony - Brevoy sends adventurers to settle the Stolen Lands and provide a peaceful southern border, only to have the adventurers form a kingdom which is threatened by the civil war in Brevoy on its northern border.
Maybe the sequel adventure path should have a new party hired by the lords of the Stolen Lands sent north to Brevoy to establish a new kingdom and provide a secure northern border. ;-)
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Creative Director
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Heh. I love the irony - Brevoy sends adventurers to settle the Stolen Lands and provide a peaceful southern border, only to have the adventurers form a kingdom which is threatened by the civil war in Brevoy on its northern border.
Maybe the sequel adventure path should have a new party hired by the lords of the Stolen Lands sent north to Brevoy to establish a new kingdom and provide a secure northern border. ;-)
Said irony is, in fact, a huge part of the reason we decided to use Brevoy as the "seed" nation, since it's a great way to support the PCs when they're low level but to start taking away that support as they gain levels and become more self-sufficient.
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THE POINT?
Don't fret if you don't see a water source next to Oleg's. It's there if you want it to be. I could see if you didn't want them to allow the city to have a port or that kind of water...
Good points. I was thinking a river tributary might be better for commerce (barges) with the River Kingdoms. Also thinking Oleg might be happier without a town springing up around his post considering he moved out there to be away from it all. :)
Have to admit though, your farmhouse, barn, stable thing had me thinking of the sound effects from Warcraft 2. I keep thinking of the thudding sound of the building being dropped on the screen, then the hammering and sawing sound effects as the Human Peasant is building your building.
"Build more farms!" :)
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Have to admit though, your farmhouse, barn, stable thing had me thinking of the sound effects from Warcraft 2. I keep thinking of the thudding sound of the building being dropped on the screen, then the hammering and sawing sound effects as the Human Peasant is building your building.
"Build more farms!" :)
You and me both. Once my game gets in to kingdom building, I know there's going to be lots of "Job's done!" and "Ready to work!" jokes (as well as "Gortook!" and "Glubnar!" jokes).
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Somewhat unrelated, but I'm curious how flexible we can be with the map given to us in the Adventure Path. Originally, I was going to make a photocopy of the map, cut the map into individual hexes, and then pass them to the players as they explore the greenbelt, but I'm curious if it would be a lot more fun for the players if they, themselves, got to determine what went where in this region. Thoughts?
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I feel rather n00btastic asking, but I keep seeing mention of a guide, but I've read through the AP a few times and really don't see an NPC who is supposed to serve as a guide to the SL, with maybe the minor exception of Pervilash and Co., though that 'guiding' is limited to about 5 hexes. Can someone please clarify for me...it's driving me nuts.
I feel rather n00btastic asking, but I keep seeing mention of a guide, but I've read through the AP a few times and really don't see an NPC who is supposed to serve as a guide to the SL, with maybe the minor exception of Pervilash and Co., though that 'guiding' is limited to about 5 hexes. Can someone please clarify for me...it's driving me nuts.
I searched the word "guide" in the PDF and only found it as a reference to the "Guide to the River Kingdoms" and "Kingmaker Player's Guide."
You got a page reference you're looking at?
The Guide you are asking about is from Crystal's Hirelings supplement perhaps?
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/cCreative/v5748btpy8dr6&source=search
It's free.
But the guide you are thinking about could also be the player's guide.
Pretty sure they're talking about the Kingmaker Player's Guide.
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I feel rather n00btastic asking, but I keep seeing mention of a guide, but I've read through the AP a few times and really don't see an NPC who is supposed to serve as a guide to the SL, with maybe the minor exception of Pervilash and Co., though that 'guiding' is limited to about 5 hexes. Can someone please clarify for me...it's driving me nuts.I searched the word "guide" in the PDF and only found it as a reference to the "Guide to the River Kingdoms" and "Kingmaker Player's Guide."
You got a page reference you're looking at?
Wasn't a page in the adventure, it was something I saw in post in this thread. After I posted, player's guide came to mind, but I thought that might be too easy...seems I was over-thinking things. Thanks.
The Guide you are asking about is from Crystal's Hirelings supplement perhaps?
Linkified
It's free.But the guide you are thinking about could also be the player's guide.
Sunderstone, et al: ever play Caesar 2?
"Plebe's are needed!"
Sunderstone, et al: ever play Caesar 2?
"Plebe's are needed!"
No, my RTS habits are war/starcraft, C&C, and DoW :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, I guess I was hoping by calling them a specific KIND of radish, and thus implying that those radishes are rare, that it would have been a bit more high-adventure. ALSO: This is a low level quest. It's basically of the same caliber as "Go into my basement and kill the giant rats down there." It's not SUPPOSED to be something high and crazy. The PCs, by the time they get to the point where they're slaying dragons and taking on armies, should be able to look back and say, "Wow... we've come a long way. Remember when we had trouble picking radishes?"
Oh, this is funny, since it's the rat killing in Burnt Offerings that has become (in)famous.
"Oh brave knight! Your radishes are indeed large and look firm. Mayhaps you would be inclined to check my mellons?"
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Creative Director
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Well, I guess I was hoping by calling them a specific KIND of radish, and thus implying that those radishes are rare, that it would have been a bit more high-adventure. ALSO: This is a low level quest. It's basically of the same caliber as "Go into my basement and kill the giant rats down there." It's not SUPPOSED to be something high and crazy. The PCs, by the time they get to the point where they're slaying dragons and taking on armies, should be able to look back and say, "Wow... we've come a long way. Remember when we had trouble picking radishes?"Oh, this is funny, since it's the rat killing in Burnt Offerings that has become (in)famous.
"Oh brave knight! Your radishes are indeed large and look firm. Mayhaps you would be inclined to check my mellons?"
Of course, the whole point of the Burnt Offerings "rats in the basement" quest is that...
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Well, I guess I was hoping by calling them a specific KIND of radish, and thus implying that those radishes are rare, that it would have been a bit more high-adventure.
I'm playing up the fact that they are rare and expensive, like saffron (a part of a flower that can be worth more than its weight in gold).
Hi guys!
I'm trying to figure out wether I should provide the players with an extracted map from the adventure, or just a blank hex-paper (I've ordered a roll from Paizo). The map from the adventure looks nice, granted, but I kind of like the idea of the players mapping out the game world themselves. That is in fact one of their tasks given by the Swordlords, so why not have them actually do it?
Any thoughts?
(Also, an errata with a corrected map would be very, very nice. Just to make sure the map in the first adventure will be coherent with the upcoming ones)
Oh by the way, for those of you who is thinking about moving Oleg's or adjusting the north arrow or whatever; I just printed an extracted map and outlined the hexes where the PC's need to go, and I'll just say "This is the area you're tasked to explore. That should work.
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I'm not moving Oleg one bit, hasn't the man moved far enough? My PCs can get over it.
I've been considering numerous options. I like the players doing the cartography themselves, but its gonna get REALLY annoying to explain to them how to draw it ("No, the forest comes up from the bottom-left corner of the hex and tapers off just a bit towards the center, but it has a little curly thingy at the tip; and the river kinda dips in from the north, flows to the woods and then turns back...No no NO! More like a loopy thing... JUST LET ME DO IT!"). I've considered as some suggested printing out the map, cutting it up and letting the players glue them to a grid (that way all I have to do is hand them the appropriate hex piece and get on with my life). OR (just thought of this) They can use tracing paper to make the map and I can cut out a blind so that they only see the section of the map that they are going to trace. Hmmm, interesting.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Of course, the whole point of the Burnt Offerings "rats in the basement" quest is that...
** spoiler omitted **
Sorry my mind was its normal fragmented self...
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Creative Director
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I've run this exploration system several times before, giving out XP for each hex the PCs explore and simply drawing in the details of the hexes they explore on a big hex battlemat. It worked out VERY well, and the satisfaction of seeing your map slowly fill in not only gives the players constant physical proof that they're actually exploring and expanding and doing stuff, but also makes it blatantly obvious where the PCs have and haven't gone yet. It's really fun.
I think laying the entire map out for the PCs to see at once, while it looks prettier, is not nearly as fun or rewarding from a discovery and exploration viewpoint, but your tastes may differ.
One really interesting compromise that would take a LOT of time would be to print out the actual hex map of the region and then as the PCs explore the region, cut out the hexes one by one and paste or tape them onto some blank paper.
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One really interesting compromise that would take a LOT of time would be to print out the actual hex map of the region and then as the PCs explore the region, cut out the hexes one by one and paste or tape them onto some blank paper.
Ha! That's what GIMP, Layers, and layer masks were invented for...Oh and large LCD TVs ;)
One really interesting compromise that would take a LOT of time would be to print out the actual hex map of the region and then as the PCs explore the region, cut out the hexes one by one and paste or tape them onto some blank paper.
I took a slightly simpler approach. I printed off the map, sans icons, and put in a protective plastic thing. I then scribbled over the plastic with a black dry erase marker to obscure the map and as the party explores I simply erase the dry erase. It's all very RTS fog of war. This also gives them a surface to make notes on.