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I would think Local would not get rumors. That would be for other skills. I would think it would allow you to know if there have been any natural disasters/diseases in an area, any recent troubles such as murders in the RotRL or orc infestation, any civil unrest, etc... Basically anything that should be common knowledge for any local commoner should be considered available for Knowledge (Local). Anything that is more specific information is probably best handled by another skill.
As for Planar, the same basic info should apply. What the climate is like, what the alignment of the ordinary creatures are, etc... Specific info (major cities, deity influence, armies of power, etc...) on a plane should require additional points in Knowledge (Planes).
I think they should have spelled out how much info a certain amount of skill points can glean a certain amount of info. I guess they decided to leave it wide open so each DM can settle it for his own campaign.
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Diplomacy is actually the go-to skill for gathering rumors (in its new role as replacing the Gather Information skill).
Knowledge (local) represents how much you know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like. It's also about what you know about monsters of the humanoid type. In addition, it represents your skill at quickly absorbing and learning and knowing this kind of information about regions you visit; that's why there's no need to specialize in Knowledge (local) for specific regions.
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Diplomacy is actually the go-to skill for gathering rumors (in its new role as replacing the Gather Information skill).
Knowledge (local) represents how much you know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like. It's also about what you know about monsters of the humanoid type. In addition, it represents your skill at quickly absorbing and learning and knowing this kind of information about regions you visit; that's why there's no need to specialize in Knowledge (local) for specific regions.
The way I read that is that you don't even have to choose a region.
So, if I take 1 point in Knowledge (Local) with my 18 int Wizard, then I already have a huge bonus to know all the above about every continent, country, city, village, outpost, fort, and any other place where people dwell anywhere on Golarion? That seems tremendously powerful. Now, my Ulfen character has a chance to know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like for every location in the Tian Shu Kingdoms, even though he has never been close to that location, all because he took 1 skill point in Knowledge (Local). Doesn't that seem a bit unbalanced?
Diplomacy is actually the go-to skill for gathering rumors (in its new role as replacing the Gather Information skill).
Knowledge (local) represents how much you know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like. It's also about what you know about monsters of the humanoid type. In addition, it represents your skill at quickly absorbing and learning and knowing this kind of information about regions you visit; that's why there's no need to specialize in Knowledge (local) for specific regions.
The way I read that is that you don't even have to choose a region.
So, if I take 1 point in Knowledge (Local) with my 18 int Wizard, then I already have a huge bonus to know all the above about every continent, country, city, village, outpost, fort, and any other place where people dwell anywhere on Golarion? That seems tremendously powerful. Now, my Ulfen character has a chance to know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like for every location in the Tian Shu Kingdoms, even though he has never been close to that location, all because he took 1 skill point in Knowledge (Local). Doesn't that seem a bit unbalanced?
It seems to me that the GM shouldn't be giving super specific info. that would be better covered by gather info (dip), or a higher DC. It's like the skill assumes that your character takes time to familiarize with his surroundings wherever he goes, at all times. Mechanically the skill works really well, you just have to find a good way to rationalize it in game. For campaigns with alot of travel, this skill is invaluable, and making the PC pick specific regions to be trained in would nerf it to death.
Just compare it to the other knowledge skills, nature is extremely useful and of comparative power, if you made the PC pick a particular terrain or region, then the skill is hardly worth the points. Would you make a player pick a specific plane for knowledge (planar)? Or a specific deity or sect for knowledge (religion)?
Skills should be really useful so that the classes that get alot of skills get their time to shine.
Diplomacy is actually the go-to skill for gathering rumors (in its new role as replacing the Gather Information skill).
Knowledge (local) represents how much you know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like. It's also about what you know about monsters of the humanoid type. In addition, it represents your skill at quickly absorbing and learning and knowing this kind of information about regions you visit; that's why there's no need to specialize in Knowledge (local) for specific regions.
That's exactly why I make my players have to have spent at least 24 hours in a new locale in order to use Knowledge: Local. Otherwise it makes no sense that they happen to know all the local info about a place they've never been to or even had a reason to research before.
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So, if I take 1 point in Knowledge (Local) with my 18 int Wizard, then I already have a huge bonus to know all the above about every continent, country, city, village, outpost, fort, and any other place where people dwell anywhere on Golarion? That seems tremendously powerful. Now, my Ulfen character has a chance to know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like for every location in the Tian Shu Kingdoms, even though he has never been close to that location, all because he took 1 skill point in Knowledge (Local). Doesn't that seem a bit unbalanced?
Not quite. If you look at it that way, you'd have to apply that logic to EVERY knowledge skill:
Taking a rank in Knowledge (planes) lets you know about COUNTLESS planes you've never been to. Taking a rank in Knowledge (arcana) lets you know about all sorts of magic traditions you've never encountered. Taking a rank in Knowledge (religion) lets you know all about religions you've never heard of.
This isn't quite the way it works, obviously. When you take ranks in a skill, that represents your knowledge about things you are familiar with or specialized in. An Ulfen who took a rank in Knowledge (local) would be familiar with his home town and the customs of his nation, and would be able to use his skill for that stuff, but the GM could rule that he couldn't make Knowledge (local) checks about Sargava or Nex or Tian Xia untill he actually exposed himself to those cultures or studied them or traveled to them. Or at the very least, the GM should let you roll but have the DCs be very high. By the same reckoning, if your Ulfin character took a rank in Knowledge (religion) he'd be familiar with the core 20 deities, but he might not be that familiar with the worship of the mantis god Achaekek.
In other words, the GM should vary the DC results of what sorts of checks you might be making. In the case of Knowledge (local), this skill is usually used to identify humanoid monsters and to help PCs get around in the society they find themselves in.
And in the end, does knowing about how a culture works in a society REALLY equate to raw power? Does knowing how a tea ceremony works really grant a viking a huge advantage? More than, say, knowing about how the layers of Hell work or about how psionics function? I'm not sure that it does.
And in the end, the GM still gets to set the DCs for every Knowledge check. So it's only as overpowered as the GM lets it get.
The point of not linking Knowledge (local) to regions is simple: doing so would SEVERLY bloat the knowledge skill choices. And we'd logically have to expand this treatment to the other knowledges as well. Suddenly, you'd have hundreds of different Knowledge skills and the way that skill ranks work in the game means that you could never have someone who was an expert with any type of breadth. That, and it's more fun to not have to track a billion different Knowledges, since each one you add further dilutes the whole.
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That's exactly why I make my players have to have spent at least 24 hours in a new locale in order to use Knowledge: Local. Otherwise it makes no sense that they happen to know all the local info about a place they've never been to or even had a reason to research before.Diplomacy is actually the go-to skill for gathering rumors (in its new role as replacing the Gather Information skill).
Knowledge (local) represents how much you know about local laws, rulers, locations, local traditions, local secrets, and the like. It's also about what you know about monsters of the humanoid type. In addition, it represents your skill at quickly absorbing and learning and knowing this kind of information about regions you visit; that's why there's no need to specialize in Knowledge (local) for specific regions.
Fair enough, although I'm also cool with assuming that they pick up that lore in the 24 hours BEFORE they arrive. In the end, glossing over when and if the PCs get acclimated to a region is only needless clutter and gets in the way of the story that needs to be told.
UNLESS, of course, the story you're telling is a fish out of water type story where having to learn the new customs of a strange, unfamiliar society is the whole point of the adventure, in which case Knowledge (local) can see heavy use in all sorts of potentially awkward social situations.
well now, i'm just curious here, does this mean you handle this the same way for all knowledge skills? like, knowledge planes your players have to pick a specific plane for each rank? knowledge arcana you have to pick a particular subject matter? engineering you have to pick a particular type of structure?
No. For all the reason James Jacobs mentioned above. I only do it for Know: Local skills as a nod to all the objections noted on other posts. I would require a specific Know: Local for a particular extraplanar city or nation, tho. Remember, tho, that a player gets his total knowledge skill on rolls. So a player who is an expert at many different cultures is going to be an expert in the new one. He or she just has to make a slight investment, that's all.
if not, why did you single out knowledge local to be nerfed? just wondering if you have some direct experience with how it breaks the game compared to the other knowledge skills.
No, nothing game breaking in doing it strictly the Paizo way or mine or one even more restrictive. And I think 'nerfed' is an exageration. I just like the flavor of requiring the PCs to justify their familiarity with a particular culture, but not requiring them to purchase Know: Local for every single place they want to visit. Breaking down every single Knowledge skill into the myriad specialties is way too much work for very, very little gain.