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I have a question about Eagle’s splendor. The spell from my understanding boosts ones wisdom by a +4 for 1 minute per level. Does this is boost in charisma affect the class feature channel energy? Do I change the number of times a cleric can use channel energy a day? Does it increase the DC for undead? and will I be able to retrieve the metal if you want it.
Oh and does the number of times I can channel energy increase?
Thaks
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Well that clears up the issue about affecting undead.
It could really go either way on channels per day. If you say they refresh their channeling at the beginning of the day after resting when they get their spells then they wouldn't get anymore if their CHA is bumped up. However if you say they have access to that many times per day and they never prepare it ahead of time then you'd get the extra uses. Since there's no wording about needing to prepare it ahead of time I'd likely go with "your uses are boosted as well to the new maximum."
I'm not sure where the text specifies this, but I'm fairly sure that temporary increases don't effect uses per day. A Headband that gives you a +4 to Cha would increase your uses per day, but a spell of Eagle's Splendor wouldn't.
This is because once you have worn the Headband for 24 hours, the increase is regarded as 'permanent' for this sort of thing- even though it theoretically stops being permanent once you take the headband off.
I'm going to disagree with Dilvish here. I'm pretty sure that a temporary increase in your Charisma would provide a temporary increase in the number of times per day that you can channel energy.
Example: a 6th level cleric with 14 Charisma can channel energy 5 times a day (3 + 2 Cha mod), doing 3d6 damage/healing, with a save DC of 15. Cleric has channeled energy 4 times already today, leaving him with only one more use on the day. He sees some undead approaching. He thinks Eagle's Splendor will help him fight off the undead and he casts it on himself. With the increased Charisma he can now channel energy 7 times on the day, with a save DC of 17, at least while the spell is in effect. While fighting the undead he channels energy twice (for a total of 6 times on the day, leaving one use left). A few minutes later his Eagle's Splendor spell wears off. Once the spell wears off, he can only channel energy 5 times a day as normal, but since he has already done so 6 times today, he has no uses left.
Later in the day the cleric's friends are begging him for healing. He has another casting of Eagle's splendor prepared, and casts it on himself. He goes back up to 7 channels a day, and having already done so 6 times, he can do it once more...so long as the Eagle's splendor spell is active.
The reason I say it would work like this is that 1) nothing says it doesn't, so the default rules for determining channels per day would apply, and 2) the spell specifically says it won't give extra spells per day for a high charisma, but doesn't say the same for channel energy or lay on hands. I'm pretty sure that in 3.5 it worked this way, and actually increased the spells per day that were available for Cha based casters--hence why they added the text about it not increasing spells per day here in Pathfinder.
Mr Fishy agrees with Dilvish the Danged the save would increase as would spell DCs for bards or sorcerors. They don't get extra spells for temporary Cha increase so channel wouldn't either.
That said your DM is the final judge ask him/her. Unless thats you then do it the way you want or "playtest" it. Do it both ways and see which your group prefers. Don't forget to mention the "PlayTest" players are a bunch of whiny babies if they think your taking away a power, even if they aren't affected. Or maybe Mr. Fishy runs for a bunch of whiny munchkins.
The 3.5 FAQ says you get additional turn undead charges if you gain a Charisma score increase. But this was based on 3.5, where increases to your ability scores very infrequently give additional uses of various abilities.
However, the PF glossary's wording implies that you only gain a very specific set of bonuses when you temporarily increase your Charisma score:
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
I think in PF increases to an ability score should ultimately *not* give you additional uses per day. I'm sure somewhere else I've flip-flopped on this issue though (:
Note: I've play-tested giving clerics additional charges per day with temporary increases to your Charisma score. It's not broken, and it gives spells like eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, and owl's wisdom more use.
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
For me the key phrase in the spell description of eagle’s splendor is this “ +4 enhancement bonus to charisma, adding the usual benefits to charisma based skill checks, and other uses of the Charisma modifier. “ The spell description goes on to note that the spell does not provide bonus spells for charisma based spell casters, but does increase the DCs of their spells
It’s the “ other uses of the charisma modifier” that could conceivably allow the spell to affect the class feature Channel energy. I think it would increase the DC of the will save to resist it, however I'm not sure about the # of times per day. If it does increase the # times a day, then you have the question of usage.
For example my character a cleric of Sarenrae has 3+Cha modifier (charisma of 16 +3 mod) +Extra channeling per day this comes out to 8 times a day
If I cast eagles splendor on my cleric his Charisma goes up to 20. This means he will have a +5 Charisma modifier. Would increase the number of times he can use the channel energy class feature per day? If so, and his # of uses goes from 8 times to say 10 times per day. Do the bonus uses of the channel energy class feature get used first or last?
If the party meats a couple of wights, and he casts eagles splendor to boost his channel energy class feature, and he uses the channel energy twice in the battle how many uses of the channel energy class feature does he have after the battle once the spell has worn off?
Thanks
Since I would play with it being your new limit I would make it so you could use 2 more channels once your reached your maximum.
Plus it makes for a good dramatic scene;
Cleric:"I'm all out of channeling but they keep coming."
Wiz:"That runs off your force of personality right?"
-Eagle's Splendor-
Cleric:"Alright, let's rock this!"
-kerszhoom-
Thank you all for your thoughts.
For me the key phrase in the spell description of eagle’s splendor is this “ +4 enhancement bonus to charisma, adding the usual benefits to charisma based skill checks, and other uses of the Charisma modifier. “ The spell description goes on to note that the spell does not provide bonus spells for charisma based spell casters, but does increase the DCs of their spells
It’s the “ other uses of the charisma modifier” that could conceivably allow the spell to affect the class feature Channel energy. I think it would increase the DC of the will save to resist it, however I'm not sure about the # of times per day. If it does increase the # times a day, then you have the question of usage.
For example my character a cleric of Sarenrae has 3+Cha modifier (charisma of 16 +3 mod) +Extra channeling per day this comes out to 8 times a day
If I cast eagles splendor on my cleric his Charisma goes up to 20. This means he will have a +5 Charisma modifier. Would increase the number of times he can use the channel energy class feature per day? If so, and his # of uses goes from 8 times to say 10 times per day. Do the bonus uses of the channel energy class feature get used first or last?
If the party meats a couple of wights, and he casts eagles splendor to boost his channel energy class feature, and he uses the channel energy twice in the battle how many uses of the channel energy class feature does he have after the battle once the spell has worn off?Thanks
If you do it that way you need to keep track of how many have been used throughout the day, even if that goes over his normal daily limit.
In no instance would multiple castings of eagle's splendor allow for additional channels above the normal daily limit +2. i.e. If you use all your channels, then cast eagles splendor to get two more, and then you use those, casting eagle's splendor again won't give any more channels that day. You would need an effect that would boost your Cha mod by a 3 or more over normal in order to get additional channels.
Its the total times he has channeled per day that is important. So its not a question of do the 'new channels' come off first or last.
Also note that this would work in reverse. A penalty or decrease to Charisma would reduce your channels per day as well as the save DC of the channel ability.
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So if I understand this correctly, a boost in charisma would give my cleric more uses of the channel energy class feature, and the two “bonus” uses would be used up last. This would be similar to the extra hit points a barbarian gets from the higher constitution. Those extra hit points are subtracted after all of his other hit points.
Thanks this was very helpful.
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In 3E, the FAQ said that it did increase (For Turn Undead/ Channel Energy specifically) the number per day, but those extra uses went first. So, if you have 4/day normally, and got an extra 2 from Eagle's Splendor, used 1 and then lost the spell, you would still have used one, and only have 3 left for the day. You could, however, use all 6 while the spell is up, and any time your Cha increased, you had already used those extra 2. So another Eagle's Splendor did not add another 2 uses that day, but a +6 Cha would give you 1 more that day.
Dilvish the Danged has the right of it.
The passage we're looking for is over here.
PF differentiates between temporary and more permanent bonuses, and what each type allows.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Every stat explicitly says what you gain when you get a temporary increase to it. Constitution explicitly says you gain hit points. Note that there are edge cases where this might produce unexpected results. If you have a 3 Con (-4 mod), possibly from aging, and you roll all 1's on your hit dice, you'll have 10 hp at 10th level. Having Bear's Endurance cast on you will grant you 20 hit points. Wearing a +4 belt of Con would not give you any. This is because the temporary Con boost gives you HP based on the size of the boost, while the permanent one increases your Con (to a 7, which is still a -2 mod), but not enough to give you more than 1 hp per level.
Likewise, for Charisma, you specifically get a bonus to any spell DCs based on charisma, and DC to resist your channeled energy. You do not get a bonus to your opposed Charisma checks to fight someone for control of a dominated creature. You do not get extra uses of anything that's charisma based. You do not get extra spells based on your charisma. You get a bonus to Charisma based skill checks, and spell/channeled energy DCs. That's it.
Bobson is 10,000,000% correct - That's it.
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A: Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one. For example, a cleric with a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma (such as from eagle’s splendor) adds 2 to his turning check and to his turning damage while the spell was in effect, since his Charisma modifier is 2 points higher than it was before.
Things get a little stickier when talking about powers with daily limits, such as turn/rebuke undead or lay on hands. (Hold on, because this gets worse before it gets better.) In this case, a change to the key ability score indeed affects the daily limit—in the example above, the cleric would gain 2 additional turn/rebuke attempts per day—but these aren’t just “free” uses.
Here’s why:
Assume the cleric above has a normal Charisma score of 12, granting him 4 turn attempts per day (3 + 1 for Cha bonus). Casting eagle’s splendor increases his Charisma to 16, which would grant 6 attempts per day. At the end of the spell, however, his daily limit would drop back down to 4 attempts. At that point, the player must compare the number of daily uses expended to the daily limit to see if any still remain. Here’s how that might work in play. Our cleric turns undead twice, then casts eagle’s splendor right before a big fight with a horde of zombies. During the duration of the spell, he makes four more turning checks. When the spell ends, he compares his new daily limit (4) to the number of attempts used (6)—whoops, no turns left. Hope all the undead have been destroyed, because even if the cleric cast eagle’s splendor again, he wouldn’t have any more turning attempts available, since he’s already used all 6 of his allotted attempts. If he could increase his Charisma to 18, he’d “gain” one more turning attempt (since he has now used 6 out of his allotted 7 daily attempts), usable only during the duration of the Charisma boosting effect.
The same is true of the paladin’s lay on hands ability. If the paladin gains a temporary Charisma boost, her total capacity of healing via lay on hands improves accordingly, but she must keep track of the healing “used up” to see if any remains after the boost ends.
Temporary ability reductions (such as penalties or damage) work similarly. When applying a reduction, do the math as if a bonus had just elapsed to see if any daily uses are left, and reverse that when the reduction goes away to see what (if anything) the character regains. If our cleric is hit by touch of idiocy and suffers a –4 penalty to Charisma, his daily limit of turning attempts is reduced from 4 to 2; if he’s already used 2 or more, he has none available as long as the spell’s effect lasts.
This seems more complicated than it actually is. As long as you memember that the important number to track is not uses remaining, but uses expended, everything else should fall into place.
Pathfinder isn't 3.5 -- the rules for pathfinder spell out exactly what gets increased with temporary stat increases and that everything else increases with permanent ability increases.
And that's all I have to say on this -- it's what the fifth time we've hashed this out?
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:)
You are right, it isn't 3.5 Just based overstrongly on it. And since it says the same things as 3.5 about permanent and temporary bonuses, the next step is to go back to the authority, until Paizo puts out their own FAQ about it.
Also, according to what you are suggesting, that only those things specifically mentioned get a boost, that means no Non-Spell DC's (Excet for Resisting Channel Enegy) get bumped. Any monster ability that works off of Cha, doesn't apply, because it doesn't say that specifically. You also might notice that Temp Str does not increase your Carrying Capacity. Con doesn't allow you to hold your breath or keep from dying, Wis doesn't add to a Monks AC, Oracle abilities get no improvments for Eagle Splendor, except their Spells, etc. . .
:)
You are right, it isn't 3.5 Just based overstrongly on it. And since it says the same things as 3.5 about permanent and temporary bonuses, the next step is to go back to the authority, until Paizo puts out their own FAQ about it.
Also, according to what you are suggesting, that only those things specifically mentioned get a boost, that means no Non-Spell DC's (Excet for Resisting Channel Enegy) get bumped. Any monster ability that works off of Cha, doesn't apply, because it doesn't say that specifically. You also might notice that Temp Str does not increase your Carrying Capacity. Con doesn't allow you to hold your breath or keep from dying, Wis doesn't add to a Monks AC, Oracle abilities get no improvments for Eagle Splendor, except their Spells, etc. . .
Sorry, you are wrong. Aside from the fact that the core rulebook tells you exactly what you get with a temporary bonus and what you get from permanent bonuses, channel energy is an entirely different ability from 3.5's turn undead, and works differently in every way. It makes no more sense to use the 3.5 faq for turn undead as authoritative for channel energy than it would be for you to take the 3.5 faq for the Identify spell as authoritative for the pathfinder Identify spell - they do different things altogether, and are mechanically completely different.
Here is the PRD on the subject:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
...
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
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The spell eagle's splendor only gives you a temporary increase to your channeling DC, it does not give you extra channelings. For that you need to have a bonus for more than one day, e.g. from a headband worn for one day or longer.
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Actually, Paizo says that anything that applied to Turn/Rebuke Undead works exactly the same way for Channe Energy. 1:1. In relation to this, nothing has changed. 0%. So the FAQ is still the best authority on the matter we have until Paizo changes it. That is a possibility. However, that ruling was legal for 3E organized play as well, so again, there is no reason (besides you don't like it, which is fine) to assume it has just changed.
Now, I'm not against you house ruling it that way, though I'd highly suggest that spells that increase Int/Wis/Dex then drop a Spell Level.
Actually, Paizo says that anything that applied to Turn/Rebuke Undead works exactly the same way for Channe Energy. 1:1. In relation to this, nothing has changed. 0%.
Do you have a source for that? Because I'm pretty sure that's not true, or at least not true in the way you're trying to use it.
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does something that reduces your CHA, reduce the number of channels you get each day?
This is what the link above says. . .
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
Actually, Paizo says that anything that applied to Turn/Rebuke Undead works exactly the same way for Channe Energy. 1:1. In relation to this, nothing has changed. 0%.Do you have a source for that? Because I'm pretty sure that's not true, or at least not true in the way you're trying to use it.
I asked Eric Mona way way back when the final core rules had just come out, specifically in how to handle the Turning Feats from Compelte Divine, Like Divine Metamagic and Divine Shield. So basically, lost somewhere in the archives, and I have no idea where to even look. :)
In addition to that, it is a an ability traded for an ability.
Would you immediately apply a penalty to their number of channels if they had a temporary CHA decrease but not apply a bonus for a temporary CHA increase?
I could see an argument if the penalty/bonus didn't apply until your next spell preparation, but if it takes immediate effect on a decrease it should take immediate effect on an increase.
Actually, Paizo says that anything that applied to Turn/Rebuke Undead works exactly the same way for Channe Energy. 1:1. In relation to this, nothing has changed. 0%. So the FAQ is still the best authority on the matter we have until Paizo changes it. That is a possibility. However, that ruling was legal for 3E organized play as well, so again, there is no reason (besides you don't like it, which is fine) to assume it has just changed.
Now, I'm not against you house ruling it that way, though I'd highly suggest that spells that increase Int/Wis/Dex then drop a Spell Level.
This is so wrong, that the word "wrong" is orders of magnitude too right to apply to the situation. In 3.5 turn undead does no damage to undead, does not have any save associated with it, and its effects are determined by comparing your "turning check" against a table at the end of the Combat section of the Player's Handbook, and if successful causes effected undead to flee as if affected by the "fear" condition, and has no healing effect at all. In Pathfinder, channel energy does damage to undead which is reduced by half on a successful will save, can be used alternately to heal living creatures within the area, and does not cause affected undead to flee whether they miss their save or not.
These are two entirely different abilities that have almost nothing to do with each other other than they are supernatural abilities that require a standard action, and they each do something, not the same thing, to undead, sometimes.
I am so confident about this, that if you find any quote from a paizo designer which says "anything that applied to Turn/Rebuke Undead works exactly the same way for Channe Energy.", and it is referring to the released version of pfrpg and not an alpha or beta test, I will send you $5 via your paypal account. If I am right, you don't have to send me anything.
The Rules say your ability score increases. Channel Energy Says 3 + your Ability Score Modifier, yes?
No.
Here's what the rules actually say:
Eagle's Splendor: "The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase."
Ability Score Bonuses: "Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses."
Since Eagle's Splendor has a duration of 1 day or less, it's a temporary bonus.
Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
That's what you get, and all you get. Anything other than that, you don't get. The rules are completely explicit on this.
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No.
Here's what the rules actually say:
Eagle's Splendor: "The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase."
Ability Score Bonuses: "Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses."
Since Eagle's Splendor has a duration of 1 day or less, it's a temporary bonus.
Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
That's what you get, and all you get. Anything other than that, you don't get. The rules are completely explicit on this.
So by no, you mean yes?
So by no, you mean yes?No.
Here's what the rules actually say:
Eagle's Splendor: "The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase."
Ability Score Bonuses: "Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses."
Since Eagle's Splendor has a duration of 1 day or less, it's a temporary bonus.
Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
That's what you get, and all you get. Anything other than that, you don't get. The rules are completely explicit on this.
Yes. And by yes, I mean no.
So by no, you mean yes?No.
Here's what the rules actually say:
Eagle's Splendor: "The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase."
Ability Score Bonuses: "Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses."
Since Eagle's Splendor has a duration of 1 day or less, it's a temporary bonus.
Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
That's what you get, and all you get. Anything other than that, you don't get. The rules are completely explicit on this.
The "usual benefits" are those that you usually get from temporary increases to your charisma, as spelled out in the temporary charisma section.
The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to (1) Charisma-based skill checks and (2) other uses of the Charisma modifier.
Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on (1) Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to (2) any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
You can easily make a case for expanding it from DCs for two specific things to any Charisma-based DC, although without developer input that'd just be a common house rule. It's much harder to justify going from DCs to uses per day. Especially when the spell itself says you don't get bonus spells, which is another daily-based use of charisma modifier.
No.So by no, you mean yes?
He is saying you are oversimplifying things, so your sentence was incorrect as it applies towards this situation.
Unless they change the rule specifically,
I think this is the point you are missing: they did change the rule... specifically.
When an ability score changes, the modifier associated with that score also changes.
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses.
Pathfinder decided that one of the problems with high level gaming was having to adjust a ton of on-the-fly stuff for ability score increases. Instead of going too drastic and reducing the importance of base ability scores, they broke it down into manageable chunks.
Things that are more transient, and thus are known to be gone fairly quickly, are given only minor, easily tracked benefits. This is so you aren't forgetting, or worse, slowing down the game, each time these are added or removed.
Permanent bonuses get to keep all the benefits, because the number of methods to remove them are fewer and far between. It's not often a magic item is removed from your body, destroyed on a failed save, or turned off by a dispel or antimagic. I can honestly say, I've played an AP from start to practical finish without it ever happening once.
I recall during the Beta this was discussed heavily, and this break from 3.5e was specifically noticed and welcomed by most people.
It was usually discussed alongside the change for ability score increasing magic items taking up only the headband and belt slots (instead of being all over the map).
This theme of "simplifying high level combat" is apparent in more than just this:
- Dropping half ranks from class skills, and retroactive skillpoints from Intelligence make for much easier and speedier high level character creation and bookkeeping.
- Raise Dead's level loss was removed.
- Negative Levels were changed to no longer be the "lose a level, time to edit that character sheet" headache and heartache it used to be.
These are specific design choices with a purpose behind them. The 3.5e FAQ is completely inadequate.
Also note, that since Paizo has started a FAQ of it's own, it would be ultimately more beneficial to simply request a FAQ update rather than try and go by an older, "apples to oranges" game edition, regardless of backward compatibility.
They've even added a handy dandy FAQ button to press on their forums. No Sage emails needed to provoke a FAQ update... they created an official process for it.
Eric Mona's response, whatever it was, back when Pathfinder first came out, was in a time when Pathfinder Society play and the FAQ system were not in full force (or even existed).
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Yes. And by yes, I mean no.No.
Here's what the rules actually say:
Eagle's Splendor: "The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase."
So by no, you mean yes?I think you have confussed yourself.
The question part 1: "Do the rules say your ability score increases?"
You quoted yourself the part that says they do. "The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier." along with the part I quoted "Ability Score Bonuses - Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
So both of these indicate that the ability score itself does increase (enhancement bonus). Yes or no?
The question part 2: "Channel Energy Says 3 + your Ability Score Modifier?"
Channel Energy:"Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric casts spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channeled energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect. A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability. "
If you are going to insist that only those things change, then that also means that the DC for class abilities not specified, like Bardic Performances, or Oracle's Mystery abilities, or Gunslingers, etc. . . also likewise do not benefit from stat boost to their applicable DC's.
I think we might be at the agree to disagree part, though. :)
If you are going to insist that only those things change, then that also means that the DC for class abilities not specified, like Bardic Performances, or Oracle's Mystery abilities, or Gunslingers, etc. . . also likewise do not benefit from stat boost to their applicable DC's.
See my post. I'd say that yes, as things are written, they don't increase. But it's much easier to generalize from "Some DCs" to "All DCs" than from "Some DCs" to "Everywhere the ability is used."
Beckett, the question has been answered. The answer is, no, a temporary bonus does not increase the number of channels per day. What is increased by a temporary bonus is specified explicitly, specifically, completely in the glossary of the CRB. I am not going to quote anything else, as I have already quoted all the relevant portions of the rulebook. There is still $5 on the table for you to claim, yet it remains unclaimed. You are asking people to prove a negative, which is a rhetorical impossibility.
You are right that the DC's for Bardic Performances, Oracle Mysteries, etc are not raised by temporary bonuses. This part is perhaps an oversight, perhaps not. Click the FAQ button and maybe the devs will add it to the next FAQ thread. But the number of channels per day is not an oversight. I know this first hand, as I participated in both alpha and beta tests of pfrpg, and this was a subject of debate I was very closely involved in (search the alpha and beta playtest forums, and you will find my name plastered all over pretty much every thread that has something to do with channel energy), and I am telling you that not increasing the number of channels per day based on temporary bonuses was a conscious design decision which was arrived at after extensive debate.
that also means that the DC for class abilities not specified, like Bardic Performances, or Oracle's Mystery abilities, or Gunslingers, etc. . . also likewise do not benefit from stat boost to their applicable DC's.
Correct.
A temporary increase to your Charisma score grants you only a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks, spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
If you're considering house ruling otherwise, compare casting Eagle's Splendor to Cure Moderate Wounds. At level 3: 2d8+3 vs two channels for 4d6 to everyone in the burst. At 5th: 2d8+5 vs 6d6 burst. It gets even more disparate at higher levels.
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Just a little devils advocate here.
The spell states this:
The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase.
Do spells not commonly act as specifics that over ride the general rules?
The spell states that the +4 enhancement bonus to charisma adds "the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier."
It does not state that it follows the normal, temporary attribute bonus rules. In fact, it seems to say that it grants the bonus for all "other uses of the charisma modifier".
Now, this is just me being pedantic, but I could see either reading, especially with how often spell mechanics override general rules.
(please note, I would probably play it the other way (no additional channels), just for less to track in game).
Just a little devils advocate here.
The spell states this:
The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase.Do spells not commonly act as specifics that over ride the general rules?
The spell states that the +4 enhancement bonus to charisma adds "the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier."
It does not state that it follows the normal, temporary attribute bonus rules. In fact, it seems to say that it grants the bonus for all "other uses of the charisma modifier".
Now, this is just me being pedantic, but I could see either reading, especially with how often spell mechanics override general rules.
(please note, I would probably play it the other way (no additional channels), just for less to track in game).
The book says "other uses of the charisma modifier" and then the next sentence outlines what those "other uses of the charisma modifier" are. Then you say "all 'other uses of the charisma mofier.'" The "all" is yours, not the book's.
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The book says "other uses of the charisma modifier" and then the next sentence outlines what those "other uses of the charisma modifier" are. Then you say "all 'other uses of the charisma mofier.'" The "all" is yours, not the book's.Just a little devils advocate here.
The spell states this:
The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase.Do spells not commonly act as specifics that over ride the general rules?
The spell states that the +4 enhancement bonus to charisma adds "the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier."
It does not state that it follows the normal, temporary attribute bonus rules. In fact, it seems to say that it grants the bonus for all "other uses of the charisma modifier".
Now, this is just me being pedantic, but I could see either reading, especially with how often spell mechanics override general rules.
(please note, I would probably play it the other way (no additional channels), just for less to track in game).
So, it does not effect any part of channel then (DC or count). By that reading, here is a list of things that it would not effect:
Divine Grace (paladin)
Lay on Hands (paladin)
Smite Evil (paladin)
Channel (Paladin/Cleric)
As these are neither skills or spells. Which is all that the spell lists, other then the phrase "other uses of the Charisma modifier".
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
In fact, it seems to say that it grants the bonus for all "other uses of the charisma modifier".
Now, this is just me being pedantic <...>
If we are going to get pedantic ;), then it doesn't say "grants the bonus for "all" other uses of the charisma modifier", but rather "grants the bonus for other uses of the charisma modifier".
Adding "all" in there would indeed imply that it would work with everything.
Since it doesn't include that word, the end of that sentence cannot really be taken in any context to imply anything. It can, in fact, be taken as simply a segue into the next line that talks about other things that it effects.
Since temporary benefits of Charisma increases also grant channeling DC increases, that also could be the "other" the spell is indicating.
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Here, since this seems to be up in the air, let's make this an official FAQ entry question:
The Eagle's Splendor mentions "and other uses of the Charisma modifier". Does this grant more than what a normal temporary bonus to Charisma would provide; such as applying towards the Charisma checks described in the charm person and enthrall spells, or uses of channel energy? For that matter, do temporary bonuses to Charisma affect such things as well?
Bonus Question: What exactly does the Circlet of Persuasion increase with it's bonus to "Charisma-based checks"?
Now.. all we need to do is hit the FAQ button. Here, I'll start it.
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And I disagree. I think you are all ignoring the part that indicates it does and insisting on adding your interpritation of and changes when they are not there.
From before, I did find this, pertinent, but not the one I'm specifically looking for.
"I don't like absolute game effects (such as immunities) as creatures abilities; in most cases they're a cheesy, weak way of making a monster more of a threat than its stats would otherwise indicate. Better to give a turning-immune creature something like +6 turn resistance so the PCs actually have a chance of it working than just to flat-out negate it.
But to your question, PF's channel energy is the inheritor of 3e's turning rules. Bonuses or penalties to turning translate exactly to bonuses or penalties to channel energy."
I'll keep looking. I'm almost certain it was Eric Mona, and specifically talking about how Quicken Turning and other "Turning" Feats/abilities aught to work with PF's Channel Energy back when Compatibility was more an issue.