It looks like the group I was planning on playing in has nothing even remotely tank-ish or heavily fighty, so in the interest of playing the traditional heavy dwarf fighter type character, I'm wanting to make a Foehammer dwarf who slams enemies around the battlefield with his massive hammer. Ideally I would like to use a Large warhammer(maybe 2 level dip in Titan Mauler?) with a heavy steel shield OR heavy steel shield + earthbreaker via Thunder & Fang. I've dabbled with both ideas and I'm unsure of which I find more appealing to the character and concept, though Titan Mauler certainly would be thematically fitting. I would really like a way to include throwing hammers into the concept somehow, because I've always liked the idea of a dwarf who uses nothing but hammers in combat.
We start this game at 3rd level but will be going as far as 20th, and we have a stat spread of 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 12, before racial modifiers, arranged as we see fit. I was thinking most likely.the 18 in Strength and 16 in Constitution so he ends up with an 18 in both stats. Something that IMO is very much a good thing for a groups main combat character. Anyway, I'm open to most build suggestions, everything from two weapon fighting ideas using the shield bash, to any feats or feat-chains you would think work best to optimize this concept into the most efficient fighter for my group.
Bump.
Hate to.double post but any and all items that help with Bull Rush attempts would also be good to know as I intend on making use of the Foehammers bonuses to them and the free trips as often as possible, so feats and feat-chains that maximize Bull Rush and Trip are also very welcome on this character. Weaponry is open to change, though I would still prefer to keep shield on him, but if something is just downright way more effective on the character I'm willing to switch out for the better option. Any other archetypes or dips that would help maximize the character's effectiveness are also appreciated and will be taken into consideration.
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Some suggestions:
Unless you have a very specific reason, don't use a large Warhammer. It's mechanically almost exactly the same as an Earthbreaker but you will take a -2 to hit with it.
Thunder and Fang is interesting. It will cost you a 'dead' feat: Weapon Focus (Klar). It's also a little odd, considering the specific Shoanti flavor of the feat. The Two-Weapon Fighting prereq isn't entirely useless, but it will mess with your stat array (requires 15 Dex). If you are interested in 'sword & board' flavor, you can go a bit further and take Improved Shield Bash and Shield Slam. That's a fantastic combo when you are optimized for Bull Rush because you can knock your opponent prone very easily. However, that becomes redundant one level later when you get Hammer to the Ground.
Thunder and Fang also will seriously hamper your damage, including your Power Attack damage.
I suggest that you skip the whole thing and stick with wielding an Earthbreaker with two hands.
Optimizing for Bull Rush is easy. Get your Strength as high as possible to boost your CMB. Take both Improved and Greater Bull Rush asap. The Advanced Race Guide lets you take the Relentless alternate racial trait for +2 to Bull Rush/Overrun.
Wear a Dwarven Boulder Helmet in case you want to use your face instead of your hammer for that extra +2. Get a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (awesome on its own) and stick it in a Wayfinder for a +2 bonus to CMB/CMD (Rules for this are in Seeker of Secrets). Get a Violet Thorny Ioun Stone (Inner Sea Combat) keyed to Bull Rush. You can get one keyed to Trip too, but that gets expensive.
At higher levels, add the Impact property to your Earthbreaker for a larger bonus.
Read the Charging rules in the CRB combat section. You get a further +2 on a charge when you use it to Bull Rush (+2 to hit, +2 on the maneuver: +4 total).
Gloves of Dueling are a must-have for any Fighter build, but they do double duty here; you should* be using your hammer to Bull Rush, so the Weapon Training bonus should* apply. Get those asap regardless. This gets a little fuzzy with RAW, as Bull Rush is something you do instead of an attack action. You normally don't get to add your weapon's enhancement bonus on it, but the Impact property and Foehammer seem to indicate that you're using your hammer to do the actual Bull Rush (like in the Sledgehammer ability). I suggest consulting your GM.
Enlarge Person can also help with Bull Rush, so see if your party's arcane caster can toss that your way.
The Dwarven Boulder Helmet can be useful because of the free +2; if you enchant it as a +2 weapon (very easy at high levels), that's a +4 to Bull Rush. This is very nice if you are using a Longhammer because if an enemy steps inside your reach, you just Bull Rush them back into position by hitting them with your face. You don't even have to let go of your Longhammer. I think it makes a great backup weapon.
Trip is tough for a non-specialist Fighter to optimize for. You need Int 13 and Combat Expertise to even take the basic feats. Not worth it IMO. In your case, go with boosting Strength, possibly the Ioun Stones, and maybe a reach weapon. Most people seem to think that the Dwarven Longhammer fits into both the hammer and the polearm group, so your Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Training should* apply. That 10' reach will help you avoid the AOOs if you don't take the feats. I say try the free trip maneuver anyway and just eat the AOO; it's easier for you to absorb the damage and it's kind of your role anyway. Soaking up enemy AOOs makes it easier for the less-meaty members of your party to get into position.
I think that Steel Soul should be your first feat. Accordingly, Glory of Old (Dwarves of Golarion) should be your first trait.
Throwing a hammer is easy. Just get a +1 Returning Light Hammer and you're all set. Alternatively, The Bounding Hammer feat from Dwarves of Golarion is also really neat. For extra awesomeness, you can choose to invest in Snatch Arrows, which would allow you to throw your Earthbreaker 20' to hit an enemy, bounce it off their face... and it rebounds back to your square where you catch it in your free hand like a boss.
It's a hefty investment: 15 Dex, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Bounding Hammer. But I think you might have room for it at later levels. It would be pretty hilarious and awesome at the same time.
If you want to be more effective at range, A potion of Fly is your best bet. You become the ranged weapon. Telekinetic Charge works too.
My main issue with the Earthbreaker and the Longhammer is that I would prefer to use the hammer one handed so that I can still use a shield. I don't mind too much going into a TWF build though, so even the klar could be refluffed into something more dwarflike. Maybe some kind of dwarven spikeshield or punching shield, those would be perfectly fine by me as long as the hammer and smacking foes around/down remains the focus of the character. The stat array is completely open to suggestions, right now nothing is set in stone with him, though I would like to retain the 18 in Strength and Constitution or atleast the 18 in Strength.
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This may not fit your concept, and the GM may restrict it, but if you take Quick Draw, you can use a Warhammer in 2 hands, and then out-of-turn have a Quickdraw Light Steel Shield out. How this will work is basically:
Fight starts, you have your shield out, because you are ready to be ambushed. On your turn, put away the shield as a free action, put 2 hands on your weapon as a free action, make your attack/attacks as a standard/full round action, move(or not, depending on level and abilities), and then as a free action, let go of your hammer with one hand and draw your shield as a free action.
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Klar is not a terrible weapon but it's not great. Reflavoring it to be something more dwarflike sounds pretty cool. The biggest problem I see is lost damage potential. You're not getting the 1.5xStr or the 1.5x Power Attack damage and that stinks.
The Klar doesn't add much to defense, and it must be double masterwork and double enchanted if you want to get attack bonus and AC out of it.
I don't really think the sacrifices are worth the benefit of wielding an Earthbreaker one-handed mechanically. If 'great big hammer and shield' is the theme of the character you have in mind, this is a really great option.
If this is a home game, you might ask your GM if you can customize the Thunder and Fang feat to work with a heavy steel shield instead. I think that would be more dwarflike and I don't think it would would break anything, especially if you're going all the way up to 20th level.
If you want to go nuts you can use two-weapon fighting as your primary offense and dual wield Earthbreakers. Thunder and Fang makes this an option.
You would need: Dex 17, TWF, ITWF, TWRend, and Double Slice (only for a high Str character like this one).
Non-TWF stat array suggestion:
Str 16 (all level bonuses here)
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
TWF stat array suggestion:
Str 16 (12th, 16th bonus here)
Dex 15 (4th, 8th bonus here)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Another thought: take the Rock Stepper alternate racial trait. At 13th level, the Groundbreaker ability isn't going to be amazing, but you might get some use out of it the difficult terrain doesn't affect you.
You don't really need Stonecunning IMO.
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Take improved unarmed strike, improved trip, ki throw and improved ki throw
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-ki-throw-combat
now whenever you bullrush and trip, your trip triggers another bullrush. throw two people against a wall for infinity!
Oh wow. I never thought of that. Awesome!
"Great big hammer and shield" kinda fits exactly the image I have in mind for the character. I don't neccessarily need him to be a massive damage dealer since I would like for him to be able to soak up some hits as well as deal them so I believe I'll go with the Thunder and Fang route for this character. Now I just need to figure out the ideal feats and options to make him how I want him, using bullrush to blow people away. I believe we will have a wizard who's working towards being a crafter, so enchanments won't kill me too much on the klar(dwarven axe-shield is what we're calling it).
Starting at 3rd level, how would you take your feats so thhus character can "come online" as quickly as possible but also still include Steel Soul?
Would.I be able to switch Steel Soul out and haveTT&F come.online at 3rd level instead, maybe take Steel Soul at 4th?
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It isn't actually very good, considering you wont be able to do any damage with it. It is just a good idea if you want to troll some bad guys by putting them in the constant cycle of bullrush trip
It's true that you have to make sacrifices for it, but the utility of being able to control the Bull Rush / Trip thing more precisely is very strong.
@OddGoblin: CWheezy's feat suggestions are solid.
Here's a slightly different take (from my PFS Bull Rush Fighter):
1 TWF
1b Improved Shield Bash
2b Weapon Focus Earthbreaker
3 Power Attack
4b Improved Bull Rush
5 Improved Initiative
6b Shield Slam
7 Greater Bull Rush
8b Weapon Specialization Earthbreaker
9 Step Up
10 Rhino Charge (from Sargava: The Lost Colony)
This has worked out very well for my fighter. His initiative is +9, which helps a lot.
I think Steel Soul will be very important for your character. Take it as early as you can.
Step Up is a great feat and I highly recommend it. There are several recent discussion threads that cover ways to use it effectively.
Rhino Charge is fantastic. See if you can fit it in somewhere. The ability to ready a charge really changes things.
Other feats like Toughness, Greater Weapon Focus, and Dazing Assault all have their place too. Make sure you don't skimp on your saves; as a fighter you will have plenty of room for the '+2 save' feats.
Going the Thunder and Fang route, how would you array his stats? As above for the TWF build or differently?
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Going the Thunder and Fang route, how would you array his stats? As above for the TWF build or differently?
You're going to want Dex 17 to get Improved TWF at some point, so I think my previous suggestion is pretty good.
I would get Dex to 17 and get that second bonus attack in the early levels. Then, boost Str with stat bonuses and a belt.
A Str/Con belt is ideal. You will have a lot of bonuses to hit (full BAB, Weapon Focus, etc.) so you won't struggle as much as other TWF builds do.
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ITWF gets you a second offhand attack that has the same net to-hit bonus as your iterative attack. I think that's worth a feat.
This becomes especially true once you can get Dazing Assault at 11th level; it's one more chance to daze the enemy.
Would you decide to not bother rolling your iterative attack just because it's to-hit bonus is a crappy BAB -5?
Greater TWF is a bad deal though, so don't waste your time with that.
If you search my profile/threads/posts for "the dwarfiest dwarf" theres a google doc that might have some helpful ideas for you. (cant post it from my phone for some reason)
Are you planning on wearing heavy armor? If not you could dip into ranger or slayer for TWF without the dex requirement.
And another thing: I felt that the Viking fighter is really good for a thunder and fang build because of the bonuses he gets with his shield and the general feel of the class. But I guess that for bullrushing and such the foehammer is better.
Shield Slam and Break Guard. When you hit seventh level (and get Hammer to the Ground) you can disarm, successful disarm lets you attack, shield slam, successful hit gives you bull rush, trip attempt after the bull rush.
greater trip and/or vicious stomp is also great with free bull runs/trip attempts (foehammer with ki throw, greater trip/stomp and the shield feats can combat maneuver/AoO indefinitely until he runs out of AoOs)
relevant thread:
paizo.com/threads/rzs2pw7w?Potentially-powerful-combat-maneuver-combo
I've actually decided to shy away from the traditional tank build, as well as the Foehammer, and am instead going for a barbarian build for this character instead. Greataxe is nice and fluffy for a dwarf, and an 18 in Str and 18 in Con is just nice to have on him. I'll be making him a mage hunter, most likely, since our party lacks a dedicated full-caster aside from our Oracle.
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Some magic items that help with Bull Rush:
Titanic Armor lets you count as one size category larger for size-dependent maneuvers.
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (hands slot)
Ring of Adept Maneuvers (requires a ki pool)
Belt of Thunderous Charging or the Gorgon Belt
If you use a shield, there's the Ramming ability.
@Dennis: the archetypal heavy armor, heavy shield type of tanking character.
In this case I'm wanting to build the Barbarian as a "I deal so much damage you have to deal with me" role while my brother, also playing my brother in-game, will be taking up this character. One will be the Foehammer dwarf who's tactical and "traditional" dwarf with a big hammer, and I'll play the Invulnerable Rager dwarf who's brutist and "traditional" dwarf with a bug axe. We'll play smart together by him setting up opponents with trips and bullrushes and I'll sweep in an finish them off with big heavy chops.
Now if anyone has any suggestions on teamworkbuilds for us or ways to build our two characters so that they aaccentuate each other and improve each other's efficiency that would very much be appreciated.