Lycanthrope as Player Character question (or two!)

[Laerlorn]

Bestiary mentions that lycanthrope player characters should be treated as playing "powerful race" and links to the page 313. At page 313, word "powerful" is mentioned again, character with such race should count as having +1 class level. Thus group with average level 8 characters could have "half-orc werewolf fighter 7", correct?

...and here we come to the next question:

Does PC gain racial HitDices from base animal or not? I cant see it written anywhere and it is not shown in examples of wererat and werewolf. Still, it has caused lots of depate with my gaming group and hours of reading through the rules word by word.

Could I get working combo from:

Half orc
Afflicted lycanthrope werewolf
Advancement by Class: fighter
Effective Character Level: 8

Thank you!

[Eben TheQuiet]

Laerlorn wrote:

Bestiary mentions that lycanthrope player characters should be treated as playing "powerful race" and links to the page 313. At page 313, word "powerful" is mentioned again, character with such race should count as having +1 class level. Thus group with average level 8 characters could have "half-orc werewolf fighter 7", correct?

...and here we come to the next question:

Does PC gain racial HitDices from base animal or not? I cant see it written anywhere and it is not shown in examples of wererat and werewolf. Still, it has caused lots of depate with my gaming group and hours of reading through the rules word by word.

Could I get working combo from:

Half orc
Afflicted lycanthrope werewolf
Advancement by Class: fighter
Effective Character Level: 8

Thank you!

Paizo simplified the way many of the templtes work (thankfully) and made it to where they remain viable longer through your career (again.. thankfully).

Quote:

Does PC gain racial HitDices from base animal or not?

No, animal hit dice are not factored into the lycan tmplate any more. You gain the +1 CR to your character (with it's statted out bonuses), but you don't have to deal with the animal hit dice.

Quote:

Half orc
Afflicted lycanthrope werewolf
Advancement by Class: fighter
Effective Character Level: 8

the Beastiary specifically suggests against using the afflicted lycan option, as if you fail your roll to control your form, you go on a wanton killing spree... specifically targetting humanoids. (ie -your teammates)

Other than that, here is a quck breakdown of what you wouldget for being a half orc fighter 7/lycan (+1 cr)

flat +2 Wis, as well as low-light vision and the scent ability. And of course the ability to shift into hybrid and animal form.

Hybrid form:
+2 to Str and Con -OR- you can use the ability scores of the base animal (in this case a wolf).
Use your half-orc speed (not your animal speed)
you gain two claws and a bite
you gain DR 5/silver.
i believe this is it.

Hope this helps (and hope i've read the rules correctly

[Laerlorn]

Thanks for the answers Eben. It seems either this issue is very clear or lycanthropes are more rare what I thought.

I agree, that lycanthrope template was tuned down a bit and simplified. +1 class level (formerly known as Level Adjustment +1) is good enough balancing factor. Most lycanthrope traits and animal traits are usable only in animal and hybrid forms, and in somewhat lawful world lycanthrope player really needs to hide his origins.

Thankfully GM is the final arbiter and can decide how animalistic, evil and uncontrollable lycanthrope PC is on bestial forms.

Final note, on hybrid form:

2 claw attacks were dropped with Bestiary (character gains all natural attack types from base animal; wolf has only a bite attack).

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

I personally would not allow an inflicted lycanthropic player by choice. Infliction is a super negative effect. This effectively nullifies the bonuses they get while in any form.

[Darkjoy]

Kobold Quarterly #11 has an article discussing the effects of lycantrophy upon a PC.

[Laerlorn]

I actually read the KQ article (half year later from starting this thread). It was good one (apart from being for 3.5).

Other than that, this is a bumb, if new issues about the topic has been raised.

[Xen]

Does anyone know what to do if the base animal isn't a wolf. For example a Were-Dire-Wolf or a Were-Tiger? I don't think the CR adjustment would still be +1.

Also I think the +2 STR/CON would be on top of what ever animal stats are higher in hybrid form. Not 100% but that's how I understood it.

[Are]

Xen wrote:

Does anyone know what to do if the base animal isn't a wolf. For example a Were-Dire-Wolf or a Were-Tiger? I don't think the CR adjustment would still be +1.

Also I think the +2 STR/CON would be on top of what ever animal stats are higher in hybrid form. Not 100% but that's how I understood it.

The CR-adjustment is +1 compared to whichever is higher of the base creature's CR or the base animal's CR.

You are correct about the ability adjustments. At least, that's how I've always understood it as well.

[Michael Moore 51]

I only recently began to explore the possibilities of lycanthropes in Pathfinder, and I've been reading some third party OGL material to enhance my stories. I noticed that D&D 3.5 had a Control Shape skill that afflicted werewolves could buy ranks in, but it appears that Pathfinder has dropped this skill in favor of a straight Constitution check. Is this the case, or is the skill just a hidden rule now? I'm considering whether to retrofit this skill or to allow afflicted lycanthropes to add +1 per two levels advanced after gaining the affliction to their Con check. Which do you think makes more sense?

[Darth Grall]

Sorry for necro, but this has come into play as a player of mine is playing a were-bear and this came up first.

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Hybrid form:

+2 to Str and Con -OR- you can use the ability scores of the base animal (in this case a wolf).

Xen wrote:

Also I think the +2 STR/CON would be on top of what ever animal stats are higher in hybrid form. Not 100% but that's how I understood it.

Now, I initially believe the later was correct, but looking at the entries in the beastiary and on the d20pfsrd and stuffs not adding up. Werebears have 21 STR, and not 23 STR. I heard there was an errata or something that came that way but I can't find a link. Which is the correct way to make weres?

[Drothmal]

Sorry to Necro this (again, it would seem), but I also have the same question regarding the +2STR/CON being applied before or after the stat replacement

- The example given for werewolves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/we rewolf) says it's after

Base creature: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14
Base Animal: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15
Hybrid: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17

So the hybrid takes the 15 from teh base animal and adds +2CON

- The example given for weretigers adn werebears says it is before

Weretiger
Creature: Str 13, Dex 16, Con 12
Animal: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17
Hybrid: Str 23, Dex 16, Con 17

Werebear
Creature: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13
Animal:Str 21, Dex 13, Con 19
Hybrid:Str 21, Dex 14, Con 19

I'm not even sure how the stats for the wereboar came to be...

Also, another question... How do you handle the bonus from level up? Can it be added to the replaced stat? (as in rounding up STR for any of the hybrid examples shown above)

EDIT: And if the +2STR/CON applies to the animal form, does that affect the score you are replacing the base creature's stats with?

[Trenas]

My recommendation:

I know this is not Paizo rules, but its a system that I have found works well and keeps Lycanthrope PC's from being too overpowered. It still gives them distinct bonuses and flavor from being a were-creature, but keeps them more a less in line with normal PC's (considering the +1 level requirement that Paizo set up for Lycanthropes).

What I would do in my game would be to apply stat mods (from the base creature) in hybrid form, and slightly boost the mods for physical stats in full animal form. For mental stats (Int in particular, since Wis and Cha are usually well represented in animals stats. They usually come pretty close to the human baseline anyway) I would apply a flat -2 Int modifier in Hybrid form, and a -4 Int mod in full animal form. The reasoning: Shifting causes the were's thought processes to become more bestial in order to properly function in animal form.

All Lycanthropes would receive a +2 bonus to one physical stat in all forms. IE: A were-fox would likely receive a +2 to Dex, while a were-bear would probably receive it to Con. A badger or wolverine would probably get a Str bonus. Basically, pick a physical attribute that fits the animal (Graceful animals get Dex, Strong animals get Str, Hardy animals get Con) and apply a permanent +2 Racial Bonus to characters relevant stat.

Physical stat mods would be based on the animals base stats. IE: A fox has a fairly normal strength stat, so it wouldn't give a were-fox any bonus to strength. He would instead gain a +2 Dex, +1 Con while in Hybrid form, and a +4 Bonus to Dex/+2 Bonus to Con while in full animal form.

Basically use the following guideline:
Base Animal Stat:/ Hybrid Mod:/ Animal form Mod:
3-5: / -2 / -4
6-8: / 0 / -2
9-11: / 0 / 0
12-14: / 0 / +2
15-20: / +2 / +4
21-25: / +4 / +6
26-30: / +6 / +8

I would also completely forbid Dire animal base forms as Lycanthropes, at least for PC's. Perhaps for some massive Were-lord type creature, but no way would I allow PC's to go there. Its simply too overpowered and clumsy in every rules system I have seen for Lycanthropes. As for game reasons: Such lycanthropes would be Primal Aspects, their were-nature based on some deep blessing or curse brought on for truly heinous/outstanding deeds.

The normal animals in the various bestiaries would (at the high end, using a Grizzly Bear as base) grant a character a constant +2 to Con or Str. Hybrid form would have a total: +4 Str, +2 Con, +1 Dex, -2 Int. Full Grizzly Form would grant: +6 Str, + 4 Con, +2 Dex, -4 Int.

Very powerful, but not so stupidly powerful as to completely wreck encounter levels.

This system also neatly addresses the whole "how do I apply the +2 modifier", and makes a characters base stats still relevant in all forms. A wizard with a strength of 6 shouldn't take a full round action and suddenly become a melee powerhouse with a strength of 18 or 20 and full ability to still use magic (Natural Spell feat if allowed by DM, or other custom/3rd party OGL feat). At most, that 6 strength wizard would be going into melee with a 16 Str. Useful, but not game breaking. This system also naturally takes level based stat increases into account without issue.

[Rynjin]

Now that the Skinwalker is out, I say the easiest solution is just tell any wanna-be lycanthrope PC "Be that".

[roll4initiative]

Does a lycanthrope paladin lose his paladin abilities (lay on hands, spells, etc...) while inflicted with the "curse" of lycanthropy?

[Rynjin]

roll4initiative wrote:

Does a lycanthrope paladin lose his paladin abilities (lay on hands, spells, etc...) while inflicted with the "curse" of lycanthropy?

Why would he? Well, assuming you're talking about beyond the possible alignment shift (the answer to that one should be obvious).

[roll4initiative]

Rynjin wrote:

roll4initiative wrote:

Does a lycanthrope paladin lose his paladin abilities (lay on hands, spells, etc...) while inflicted with the "curse" of lycanthropy?

Why would he? Well, assuming you're talking about beyond the possible alignment shift (the answer to that one should be obvious).

That's what I thought. Thanks.