Hey all, so my human bard just got reincarnated as a halfling, the negative levels were removed and now i gained a level...so now what? i'm trying to work out the kinks...
i have a halfling body, but a human mind? Does this mean that I still get 1 BONUS Skill point per level and no familiarity with halfling weapons?
and the luck bonus for fear saves?
I'm confused.
It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks
it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save
bonuses, and hit points are unchanged.
You retain only class dependent abilities as well as skill ranks and feats.
Normally you lose all racial benefits and exchange them for those of the new race. However, since the human racial benefits are skil ranks and a feat you are fortunate to keep them.New your character gets all the halfling racial benefits as well as the human extra feat and skill ranks attained prior to reincarnation. When you level in the future, you no longer benefit from the human's extra skill ranks.
That is if you where a 6th lvl human bard prior to reincarnating, you change all racial features to those of a halfling and get an extra feat and 6 extra skill points (both from human). In the future you ust advance as anormal halfling.
Which means a human reincarnated as a half elf, then an elf has two more feats than a 'normal' character of that level would have... one from being human and a skill focus he picks up for being half elf?
Creative Director
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Which means a human reincarnated as a half elf, then an elf has two more feats than a 'normal' character of that level would have... one from being human and a skill focus he picks up for being half elf?
This is an increasingly tricky subject, since what it's sort of doing is treating races as templates. But basically... if you're reincarnated, your mental faculties remain unchanged but your physical ones change to match your new race. Since the game doesn't spell out exactly which is which, it takes a fair bit of GM interpretation for this.
So... a human reincarnated as a half elf would probably retain his bonus feat from being human, but would NOT gain the bonus Skill Focus feat from becoming a half elf.
The point is, you should NEVER be allowed to "collect" racial traits by being reincarnated over and over and over. Keeping the mental stuff constant and changing the physical each time to match the new body seems to be the most constant and logical method to handle it.
The point is, you should NEVER be allowed to "collect" racial traits by being reincarnated over and over and over. Keeping the mental stuff constant and changing the physical each time to match the new body seems to be the most constant and logical method to handle it.
"Let's see, what do I still need to get? Oh yeah, I need a better insight on how to fly! Hey Leroy, get the stinky herbs ready, I need a new body!"
The point is, you should NEVER be allowed to "collect" racial traits by being reincarnated over and over and over. Keeping the mental stuff constant and changing the physical each time to match the new body seems to be the most constant and logical method to handle it."Let's see, what do I still need to get? Oh yeah, I need a better insight on how to fly! Hey Leroy, get the stinky herbs ready, I need a new body!"
Agreement on my end just pointing out the obvious break in the spell, not a huge deal but I know people that would leap at this.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I am sorry for using such an old thread for my purpose, but I need a clarification concerning reincarnate on the subject of " First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race)" (from the PFSRD).
I know James Jacobs said to keep the mental stuff constant, but in my case a human rogue (now reincarnated as an Elf) put his ability score increase into INT - do I "eliminate the subject's racial adjustments" also regarding this attribute increase or do I leave it as is?
Thanks for your help.
Ruyan.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I am sorry for using such an old thread for my purpose, but I need a clarification concerning reincarnate on the subject of " First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race)" (from the PFSRD).
I know James Jacobs said to keep the mental stuff constant, but in my case a human rogue (now reincarnated as an Elf) put his ability score increase into INT - do I "eliminate the subject's racial adjustments" also regarding this attribute increase or do I leave it as is?
Thanks for your help.
Ruyan.
i thought none of the mental stuffed changed at all, ever? so you wouldnt have to worry about the subjects racial increase to int. he doesnt get it. all the mental always stays the same, going to or coming from. the only thing you lose/gain is physical. if i read correctly.
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Here's the real question: If a half-orc put his racial bonus into, say, con, but reincarnates as human. Does he lose the "+2" strength on the reincarnate chart (for half-orc) and come back with a *further* +2 con (the entry for human)? Or does he just keep his old physical stats since the races have essentially the same ability modifier?
Reincarnate makes no sense. I give my game's druids raise dead as a 6th level spell.
Greetings again.
Thanks for the replies - they do not solve my problem, but thanks anyway.
To make myself clearer, my player put the attribute adjustment as a human when he created his character into INT - not while hitting Lvls 4, 8, 12 or so.
On further pondering the subject my solution to it is:
I will stick with what James Jacobs said: leave the "mental stuff" as it is - so my player will keep his +2 bonus with which he boosted his INT upon creation, and has to adjust his physical stats according to the table in the spell's description (+2 to Dex, lucky rouge, and -2 to Con, unhappy rogue).
Also, the player's character will gain low-light-vision, +2 to perception and the martial weapon proficiencies described in the entry for elves in the PFSRD.
BUT, he will not gain the magical immunity, the bonus on CL checks and Spellcraft checks, the proficiency with the elven specific weapons, nor their language. All these things have to do - at least as I interprete it - with the mindset of Elves and their heritage and affinity to the world.
For me, reincarnate means: old mindset, old habits, but new physical body (hopefully the "01" or similar rolls will not come up in my game...)
This leads me to answer, StabbittyDooms question with: The Ex-Half-Orc-now-Human would lose his +2 to Con, but would gain it again after being reincarnated as Human, also, he would lose darkvision, orc blood and orc ferocity and their bonus to intimidation (all these gadgets are due to physical properties).
Ruyan.
I would deny the player to choose what ability score increases due to race for humans or half-humans, just throw a d6. They get a body randomly, with random bonuses, colour, gender and everything.
For that player who becomes elven, he probably won't get weapon proficiency, that is part of training.
For the rest, what the orc looses, you are correct I think.
For the reincarnate, even if you can't "collect bonuses", there are races that are better to start with, and races that are better to end with. Human would give you a good start with feat and assign ability bonus to mental ability, and try become a dwarf. Your charisma won't drop, you get con, and stability and hardy are physical abilities + darkvision.
(this seems the best you can make from base-races, not all the races the spell can produce).
Edit: I would let the orc keep his orc ferocity, or else he has nothing of mental bonuses. Orc ferocity might come from training, and be a mind-thing, and not a resistant body.
Keep the mental doesn't refer to the stats, it refers to the skills/feats/etc.
Your stats change when you reincarnate (keep your original stats, subtract the racial bonuses from the previous race, then add the new races' bonuses).
There's nothing wrong with this. Yes, you used to be smarter, but the body you are in now has a brain that just can't think as fast as your old one does, but it's reflexes are WAY better.
I agree with MDT, they way I always explain it is..ya was dead, not all of your memory are still there and you have gaps.
MDT, altough I can see that changing mental ability scores is fairer, the spell is quite clear that they stay as they are (including racial bonuses).
"Strength, Dexterity, and
Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." It doesn't say "ability scores", and the table with strange races only show physical bonuses and maluses.
But as I said, houseruling it differently might be a good idea, or every powergamer will ask to get reincarnated until they are a bugbear ;)
MDT, altough I can see that changing mental ability scores is fairer, the spell is quite clear that they stay as they are (including racial bonuses).
"Strength, Dexterity, and
Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." It doesn't say "ability scores", and the table with strange races only show physical bonuses and maluses.But as I said, houseruling it differently might be a good idea, or every powergamer will ask to get reincarnated until they are a bugbear ;)
Yep. To me, your attributes are dependent on the body. Just as someone's WIS or INT or CHA can be negatively impacted by damage to the brain, changing the brain into the brain of another race would change it.
This does make being reincarnated into an animal a major pain. You'd still be sentient (it's a -8 or -9 INT being an animal). Unless they had a 10/11 intelligence, they'll have a 3 or better.
Actually, the reincarnate into animal is the only time I might leave the mental stats alone. It does become a pain at that point.
There is another situation where Reincarnation can be VERY tricky to estimate, and it depends from this (apparently) plain sentence:
"The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand."
Houseruling excluded, what is the official answer regarding a Middle-aged (or older) creature affected by Reincarnate ? Because it would seem by RAW that all physical penalties accrued due to age would be erased (since the body would be effectively young again), but all mental bonuses would stay (because they are Mental characteristics, gained through the experience of the age).
Worse yet, what would happen to the same 'formerly Middle-Aged(+), now Young' creature for the purpose of taking penalties and bonuses from aging a second time ? I am fairly sure that 'aging bonuses' would not stack again (the +1 to Mental scores gained from reaching Middle Age would overlap - but again, this seems to be more a matter of RAI rather than RAW, since they are NOT technically bonuses but rather increments), but how would you calculate new penalties and bonuses ? Physical penalties 'should' be derived from the new physical form (so, a formerly Middle-Aged Human reincarnated as an Elf should take physical penalties when reaching 175 years - which is, 65 years later from the Reincarnate spell, which would 'set' his new age at 110), but what about Mental bonuses ? Would you follow the same pattern (for sake of simplicity), or would you calculate them 'as if' he were of his original race ?
Worse yet, what would happen to the same 'formerly Middle-Aged(+), now Young' creature for the purpose of taking penalties and bonuses from aging a second time ? I am fairly sure that 'aging bonuses' would not stack again (the +1 to Mental scores gained from reaching Middle Age would overlap - but again, this seems to be more a matter of RAI rather than RAW, since they are NOT technically bonuses but rather increments), but how would you calculate new penalties and bonuses ? Physical penalties 'should' be derived from the new physical form (so, a formerly Middle-Aged Human reincarnated as an Elf should take physical penalties when reaching 175 years - which is, 65 years later from the Reincarnate spell, which would 'set' his new age at 110), but what about Mental bonuses ? Would you follow the same pattern (for sake of simplicity), or would you calculate them 'as if' he were of his original race ?
I'd probably continue to add to his age. He might be in the young body, but his mind is older. So there's no issue there. I don't have the book with me, so my numbers may be off, but for example :
Human who's 60 has gotten a +1 to all mental stats at 55 for age. He get's reincarnated as an elf, into a body that's 40 (young for an elf). An elf would get, let us say, a +1 to all mental stats at 180, and another +1 at 210, for example. I'd subtract his original 55 from the 210, and then give him his next boost then. That would be 155. Once he had gained all the age related boosts he could possibly get, then I would just keep track of his actual mental age, but no longer grant bonuses.
Of course, if he reincarnated into a younger lived species, he might get that +1 faster, but he's getting it at the expense of his body going out on him faster, so that's ok.
Reincarnate's a problem.
1) Reincarnate doesn't work well with the pick-your-bonus races. A human wizard who put his bonus in Intelligence, dies, and reincarnates as a human, by the text would gain +2 Con. Or by alternate interpretation, if he came back as an elf, he'd get -4 Con, from losing his (phantom) Con bonus and then taking a -2 to Con.
2) The physical/mental split is hardly even across races. Human's "Skilled" feature is pretty obviously mental, so someone who once was human would retain that feature forever, right? So he comes back as an elf, he keeps every racial feature of humanity, and he gains at least Low-Light Vision.
3) Reincarnate can radically rebalance a character; the human barbarian who manages to hit bugbear, gnoll, or lizardman, versus the one that hits kobold. This is especially true if the human +1 skill rank/level is mental, since that feature would then stay with the character and continue to accumulate.
4) Reincarnate is both a path to eternal life (it can be cast on someone who died of old age, and always brings them back to young adult) and a way to accumulate age bonuses to mental abilities while getting rid of age penalties.
5) At high levels, Reincarnate roulette is reasonably easy to abuse; die again until you get a result you like. Pay for one Greater Restoration to take off the negative levels. (Yes, you can plain prohibit this as a GM, but the abusable nature of this is a function of the above points.)
6) (Minor) Reincarnate in 3.5/Pathfinder doesn't reflect the original intent of the spell. In earlier versions of the game (including the under-OGL 3rd Edition), the druid version of reincarnate usually brought the character back as an animal or other woodland creature, not as a random humanoid.
Oh, yes, sure. A group of seventh-level adventurers enter a bar, of course the first-level commoners in the place are going to attack the group because of the bugbear peacefully associated with them, in a world where, by the way, reincarnation is a standard spell. Yeah, that's a fully-realistic consequence, not a transparent contrivance to try to offset mechanical advantages.
Oh, yes, sure. A group of seventh-level adventurers enter a bar, of course the first-level commoners in the place are going to attack the group because of the bugbear peacefully associated with them, in a world where, by the way, reincarnation is a standard spell. Yeah, that's a fully-realistic consequence, not a transparent contrivance to try to offset mechanical advantages.
Agreed, to some extent.
In my game, generally, if the reincarnated bugbear is accompanied by other 'normal' races, and he's well dressed and not brandishing weapons, he's generally looked at with distrust, and the watch follow him around, but he's not attacked on sight.
On the other hand, if he comes running into town, covered in blood, waving a sword, nobody is going to listen to his cries about the lizardfolk who are on their way to attack the town. Instead, the watch is going to attack him without a second thought.
A single, well groomed bugbear, all by himself, is likely going to be chased out of town.
Oh, yes, sure. A group of seventh-level adventurers enter a bar, of course the first-level commoners in the place are going to attack the group because of the bugbear peacefully associated with them, in a world where, by the way, reincarnation is a standard spell. Yeah, that's a fully-realistic consequence, not a transparent contrivance to try to offset mechanical advantages.
One time in Planescape, my mid level monk died and had reincarnate cast on her. I rolled a 97 IIRC, and came back as a troll.
Back in 2nd ed, there was no difference between unarmed strikes and natural attacks, so i was all kung-fu troll!
It was great until a passing cleric cast Detect Evil on me I (DM ruled that as i was a troll i gradually turned evil, meh whatever) and smote my ass!
Arbitrary much?!?