Remember lances have reach there are multiple options on how he gets to you.
Reach is irrelevant. For one thing, it's the paladin who's using the reach weapon, not the horse, so it's still only a 10' range. More importantly, you must charge to the nearest square from which you can attack. In most cases, that means you have precisely one square you can charge to. The fighter knows which one square that is, and he can manipulate that one square by moving on his turn. In almost every case, a single 5' step is enough to place himself so that the horse's space intersects with his if it continues the charge, meaning it cannot use Ride-By Attack (or, it can, but only to move that 5' closer). In the instances in which a 5' step won't work, a simple move action will always work, and it still leaves the fighter the ability to ready his attack against the charge.
I have extensive experience with this. One of my old DMs loved using mounted opponents against us. Ride-By Attack is a very weak feat once you learn how to counteract it.
Don't Readied 5' Step (+Standard Action presumably) happen just BEFORE the action triggering it?
So even if they have a Lance of Stunning (etc), you don't get messed up until AFTER the Readied Action.
Still, there's not a mechanical limitation saying Lances' can only attack directly ahead, so if they're still in threat range (incl. of non-reach weapons you may have) you should still be able to make a charge attack against them, IMHO.
Another tactic vs. Lance Chargers is Readying an Attack when they approach within 10' and promptly 5' step INTO them as part of the Readied Action, then Trip their Horse or something.
*stuff
That makes more sense. I thought he was saying you could ready an action to take a 5 foot step to block the charger as he came in, and while I can see it making sense in a rules standpoint, my mind says no way. You're lucky if you're still standing at that moment in time.
Confusion is gone.
Okeydokey! Results!
So, obviously, under your build, with no buffing, the paladin gets mauled. He's built his weapon (+5, Keen, merciful, flaming) to make up for his lack of feats, and the fighter has everything going for him.
Fighter DPR is 390, with his awesome +5, elemental damage weapon.
Paladin DPR is a pathetic 43. Hitting the fighter is tough.If it's an evil fighter, the tune changes, because the paladin hits like a @#$%ing truck when he does hit, and gets an enormous bonus to hit.
Fighter DPR: 269
Paladin DPR: 289If it's a good fighter, and you get to pre-buff (Bless Weapon, Brilliant Energy, another d6 from something else):
Fighter DPR: 390
Paladin DPR: 200Aaand, just to see our fighter suffer...what if he's evil and you get to buff?
Fighter DPR: 270ish
Paladin DPR: 410Owch.
So, honestly, system looks to me like it's doing the right thing. If there's no magic involved, Fighter crushes paladin. If there's buffing, fighter still wins handily. If the fighter is evil, Paladin wins. If the fighter is evil and the Paladin can buff himself, Paladin beats his face in.
Any other suggestions?
-Cross
Don't forget the paladin can heal himself 60 hps every round as a swift action. He's be better off getting an item to give himself a miss chance than cranking up his AC.
Don't forget the paladin can heal himself 60 hps every round as a swift action. He's be better off getting an item to give himself a miss chance than cranking up his AC.I agree about the 60 hit points, but I'm betting that you clever sorts can do the math, look at the two numbers, and figure out if they're more than 60 apart.
You may also be right that, in this instance, it's better for the paladin to go through the DMG for miss chance items, etc. Might be better for the fighter too.
But the purpose here is not to test out every possible combination of gear that one can dream of. It's to test a reasonably optimized fighter versus a reasonably optimized paladin.
Paladin wins if the guy is evil. Paladin loses if the guy is not evil.
It's pretty much that simple. And that is probably how it should be.
-Cross
Um that's a pretty big difference. If the fighter is doing 300 damage a round and the 150 of it gets negated by miss chance, 60 gets healed, the fighter is essentially doing 90 damage a round until he gets the kill, on that round he does 150 since no chance to heal. If the fighter has better AC and better +hit because of class features, then trying to make an even matchup with the paladin trying to max his +hit and his AC is a losing proposition. I.E. using the same gear is a bad idea.
Nobody likes you! :P
:'(
Sometimes I wonder if the fighter would be given a little more benefit of the doubt if all the "Fighter-only Feats" in the Feat section were listed under the Fighter section of classes and called "Fighter Talents." You'd get "a Fighter Talent" every other level and could choose between these special "talents" or another combat feat of your choice.
Which, in case I'm not being clear, is exactly how it is in the game as it stands, but because a good chunk of what the fighter can uniquely do is buried in another section of the rules, I wonder if folks overlook these "class features" sometimes (frex, in the previous page of this discussion, someone didn't realize Fighters and only Fighters qualified for the Penetrating Strike feat tree).
Penetrating Strike (bypassing DR), Disruptive/Spellbreaker (messing up/cancelling out Defensive Casting), Critical Mastery can all be nasty and ONLY Fighters can do them (and aren't reliant on magic or magic items in any way). Not to mention the generally nice benefits of Weapon Specialization, etc. etc. etc.
Paladins are definitely very powerful, but I think Fighters are powerful in a different way, and I think what's important is is that their abilities don't overlap. Paladins have all these cool healing and buffing abilities (though they need to choose between using these and attacking); Fighters have more combat versatility and mobility. Paladins (potentially) have better saves, Fighters (potentially) have better AC.
Smite Evil is nasty but as noted, circumstantial. And while, if I were an Evil Outsider, I'd probably fear the Paladin more, I'd still also be pretty scared of the soldier who (with a particular build) is running at me in full speed in full plate while somehow managing to penetrate my fiendishly tough skin while using an ordinary chair as a weapon*, and keeping me from casting my spells if I have any.
(*Yes, I know catch-off-guard or improvised weapon mastery are not fighter only feats; I just like the mental image)
So our fighter uses a lens of true seeing, and you can't have any miss-chance effects.
And then you do something else.
And then I do something else.
...
...
...
See where this goes? The point here was to establish what basically happens, by the numbers. I imagine some people are surprised, already (Hydraxy, at least, seemed surprised that the fighter won so handily).
The Paladin is better than the fighter when he/she/it can smite evil, and is not better when he/she/it can't.
Buffing helps narrow the gap a bit, but not enough.
-Cross
Which means your fighter has to lower his wealth by 75K to get his gem of seeing, which could seriously hurt his damage output. I think it's a very valid point. You wouldn't expect a wizard going up against a fighter in a 1-vs-1 duel to have the exact same gear, why should a paladin?
He's be better off getting an item to give himself a miss chance than cranking up his AC.
If I wanted to beat Crosswind's TWF fighter I would be playing a greatsword-paladin with Wind Stance and Spring Attack. =p
And then he would switch all the way over to archer and put a dozen holes in me per round. Like he said, this isn't about 1-upping the other guy, it's about comparing apples to apples.The point here was to establish what basically happens, by the numbers. I imagine some people are surprised, already (Hydraxy, at least, seemed surprised that the fighter won so handily).
I was definitely surprised, and I have a much greater appreciation now for how much the fighter's raw attack and damage bonuses can to to hedge out another warrior's offense. However, I'm finding that the paladin beats the (neutral) fighter if he calls properties for both his weapons rather than just one.
A few things you missed-
-Keen is actually +1, not +3, so the paladin can use the same crazy-energy-weapon as the fighter
-Shield Mastery actually only removes the twf-penalties for the shield, not for both weapons.
Now, here's what I got:
FIGHTER:
Total AC bonus:
Dodge: (1)
Armor: (14) (9 + 5)
Dex: 5 (1 from plate, 4 from armor training)
Shield: 9 (2 from heavy shield, 5 from magic, 2 from shield focus/gsf)
Natural: 5
Protection: 5
Normal AC: 49
AC vs brilliant energy (includes nat armor): 26
Attacks:
BAB: 20
Feats: 2/0
Magic Weapon: 5
Class Bonus: 4/3
Strength: 13
TWF: -2/0
Total AB: 42/41
Damage per attack:
Base weapon damage: 3.5
Strength: 13
Feats: 4/0
Enhancement: 5
Energy: 17.5 (5d6)
Class: 4/3
Total: 47/42
PALADIN:
Total AC bonus:
Armor: (14) (9 + 5)
Dex: 1
Shield: 7 (2 from heavy shield, 5 from magic)
Natural: 5
Protection: 5
Total AC: 42
Attacks:
BAB: 20
Magic Weapon: 5
Strength: 13
TWF: -2/0
Total AB: 36/38
Damage per attack:
Base weapon damage: 3.5
Strength: 13
Enhancement: 5
Energy: 17.5 (5d6)
Merciful: 3.5/0
Total: 42.5/39
FIGHTER ATTACKS
Scimitar (base DPR): 42/37/32/27 vs AC42 = .95/.8/.55/.3
.95/.8/.55/.3 x 47 = 122.2
Shield (base DPR): 41/36/31 vs AC42 = .95/.75/.5
.95/.75/.5 x 42 = 92.4
Scimitar (critical hit bonus DPR): .3/.3/.3/.3 x 94 = 112.8
Shield (critical hit bonus DPR): .0475/.0375/.025 x 84 = 9.24
Two-weapon rend = 24.5 (the chances of all shield or all scimitar attacks missing are infinitesimally small)
Neutral fighter’s DPR vs. paladin: 361.14
PALADIN ATTACKS (1 divine bond)
Brilliant energy scimitar (base DPR): 36/31/26/21 vs AC 26 = .95/.95/.95/.8
.95/.95/.95/.8 x 42.5 = 155.125
Shield (base DPR): +38/+33/+28 vs AC 49 = .5/.25/.05
.5/.25/.05 x 39 = 31.2
Brilliant energy scimitar (critical hit bonus DPR): 46.5375
Shield (critical hit bonus DPR): 3.12
Paladin’s DPR vs. neutral fighter (1 divine bond): 235.9825
PALADIN ATTACKS (2 divine bonds)
Brilliant energy scimitar (base DPR): 36/31/26/21 vs AC 26 = .95/.95/.95/.8
.95/.95/.95/.8 x 42.5 = 155.125
Brilliant energy Shield (base DPR): +38/+33/+28 vs AC 26 = .95/.95/.95
.95/.95/.95 x 39 = 111.15
Brilliant energy scimitar (critical hit bonus DPR): 46.5375
Shield (critical hit bonus DPR): 33.345
Paladin’s DPR vs. neutral fighter (1 divine bond): 346.1575
361 vs. 346- the fighter is ahead, but only by a few points. In fact he's only ahead because he took Rend and the pally didn't.
And remember that the paladin heals 60 damage per round. This also doesn't include power attack (which helps the fighter, but will help the paladin a lot more- he's enjoying some serious to-hit overkill over the fighter's 26 touch ac. I'm pretty sure that if they both power-attack the pally wins even without accounting for healing.
Actually running the numbers myself (even though they weren't that different from yours) makes me appreciate how much of the fighter's output is dependent on his capstone ability- nearly a third. The paladin's capstone doubles his healing but doesn't increase his damage at all. I think this would play out quite a bit differently at level 10.
It also made me realize that, against the fighter's impressive AC, paladin A (the one with a brilliant energy scimitar and a standard +5-energy-everywhere shield) is probably better off just power attacking with the scimitar alone and using the shield as a shield. It would only cost him 10 or so points of damage and would free up over half his feats. But that's rebuilding for the situation; he's built for TWF because he expects to be smiting most of the time.
I -really- need to give this thread a rest- it's been sucking me in all day- but it's been a blast and I'll definitely be back later.
(Edit: I've been ignoring the fighter's DR. He should still win with weapon bonds and PA or healing, but not by as much)
Just a note, but we have gone over all of this already in the playtest. Look for Turin's and my posts for Kenny the fighter, Kenny the ranger, Kenny the barbarian and Benny the fighter. Each of those were done to test limits for each of the classes. I believe paladin was the only one that wasn't specifically built.
TWF: -2/0
Sorry, it's a bit off-topic but how come it is only -2 on the primary attack? I thought TWF feat + one-handed weapon in off-hand is -4/-4 and the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, not a light weapon. Shield Master feat eliminates the off-hand penalty but I don't see anything that can reduce the primary hand penalty. Even a mithril shield would not make the heavy shield a light weapon.
Have I missed something? I am looking at creating a sword and board build so I'm interested to see how one can reduce the penalty further.
|
TWF: -2/0
Sorry, it's a bit off-topic but how come it is only -2 on the primary attack? I thought TWF feat + one-handed weapon in off-hand is -4/-4 and the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, not a light weapon. Shield Master feat eliminates the off-hand penalty but I don't see anything that can reduce the primary hand penalty. Even a mithril shield would not make the heavy shield a light weapon.
Have I missed something? I am looking at creating a sword and board build so I'm interested to see how one can reduce the penalty further.
that should be -2/-2
Because TWF makes it -4/-4, then making it light reduces the penalties to -2/-2.
TWF: -2/0
Sorry, it's a bit off-topic but how come it is only -2 on the primary attack? I thought TWF feat + one-handed weapon in off-hand is -4/-4 and the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, not a light weapon. Shield Master feat eliminates the off-hand penalty but I don't see anything that can reduce the primary hand penalty. Even a mithril shield would not make the heavy shield a light weapon.
Have I missed something? I am looking at creating a sword and board build so I'm interested to see how one can reduce the penalty further.
that should be -2/-2
Because TWF makes it -4/-4, then making it light reduces the penalties to -2/-2.
What is making it light? Mithril doesn't reduce the weapon category (p155) as already explained above so how?
Shield Master does remove the penalty entirely so there is no discussion regarding the off hand attack penalty (0). Only the primary hand attack puzzles me, I think this build should be -4/0.
|
|
TWF: -2/0
Sorry, it's a bit off-topic but how come it is only -2 on the primary attack? I thought TWF feat + one-handed weapon in off-hand is -4/-4 and the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, not a light weapon. Shield Master feat eliminates the off-hand penalty but I don't see anything that can reduce the primary hand penalty. Even a mithril shield would not make the heavy shield a light weapon.
Have I missed something? I am looking at creating a sword and board build so I'm interested to see how one can reduce the penalty further.
that should be -2/-2
Because TWF makes it -4/-4, then making it light reduces the penalties to -2/-2.
What is making it light? Mithril doesn't reduce the weapon category (p155) as already explained above so how?
Shield Master does remove the penalty entirely so there is no discussion regarding the off hand attack penalty (0). Only the primary hand attack puzzles me, I think this build should be -4/0.
If you wield a light weapon in the offhand, it reduces the two weapon fighting penalty to -2/-2.
If you wield a light weapon in the offhand, it reduces the two weapon fighting penalty to -2/-2.
Sorry, it's a bit off-topic but how come it is only -2 on the primary attack? I thought TWF feat + one-handed weapon in off-hand is -4/-4 and the heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, not a light weapon.
(...)
Thank you I know that but the question is about the build presented in this thread which uses a heavy shield and a heavy shield is a one handed weapon, not a light one, as explained above...
We apparently overlooked that. It should probably be a light shield, dropping everyone's AC by 1 and dealing 1d3 (unless we give it the bashing property, which counts as a shield enhancement not a weapon enhancement (only another 11,000), and then it's back to 1d6).
The reason it's -2/0 not -2/-2 is because of Shield Master, which removes all TWF penalties for attacks made with shields. Though your right, if it were a heavy shield that would be -4/0.
Give em the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat, from the Complete Adventurer
We apparently overlooked that. It should probably be a light shield, dropping everyone's AC by 1 and dealing 1d3 (unless we give it the bashing property, which counts as a shield enhancement not a weapon enhancement (only another 11,000), and then it's back to 1d6).
The reason it's -2/0 not -2/-2 is because of Shield Master, which removes all TWF penalties for attacks made with shields. Though your right, if it were a heavy shield that would be -4/0.
That's what I thought too but a look at the statblock of Iomedes herald in the CoT AP shows it wielding a longsword and heavy shield with a -2/-0. I'm thinking if you have no penalty for using your shield as a weapon that means it doesn't encumber you, so that's where they're getting the -2/-0, but I could see it going either way as it's not really clear what happens to the primary with the shield mastery feat.
the statblock of Iomedes herald in the CoT AP shows it wielding a longsword and heavy shield with a -2/-0.
That's odd.
It doesn't seem like they're adjudicating Shield Mastery any differently than we are though (they've reduced the penalty for the shield and not for the sword), they're just treating the heavy shield as a light offhand weapon. That could easily be an oversight.
The bit I don't get about shield mastery is the part where it says you add the shield's enhancement bonus to your attack- does that stack with the bonus on the spikes?
Enhancement bonuses don't stack with enhancement bonuses, and you need to actually enhance your shield as a weapon anyway if you want to give it weapon properties like flaming or speed.
If you want to take full advantage of this, though, you can always have a +5 shield (or higher if you want armor properties) and enhance it as a +1 weapon with +9 worth of weapon properties, giving you the equivalent of a +14 weapon (which is still also a +5 or better shield).
The shield feats are ridiculous.