I enjoyed the article on tieflings in Bastards of Erebus, and will certainly refer to it for guidance on tiefling characters born or traveling through the various lands beyond Chelish influence. However, the anti-tiefling hatred and second-class citizen status doesn't ring true IMO with the state-mandated devil-worshiping, "all-things-fiendish are a-okay with us" Chelaxians.
I mean it doesn't seem like a stretch to think that some noble family hard on its luck would try to get a social boost by way of an infusion of fiendish blood. Or to get tricked into it by way of a Faustian bargain, or as a result of a foolhardy indiscretion. And the children of those circumstances probably wouldn't just accept an oppressed lot in life, at least not the interesting ones we're concerned with - prominent NPCs & PC-adventurers.
Shouldn't there be a different attitude about and among tieflings in Cheliax from the rest of the world? Sure, any tiefling, accidental or intended, should have a seriously tragic, "David Copperfield" childhood everywhere else, but in Cheliax they should be different. Perhaps some kind of "favored servant" class status, where they could at best attain "power behind the powerful" positions, or where human-flavored tieflings would be preferred over presumably "less trustworthy" non-human outsiders. [EDIT: I mean outsiders as in other races, not specifically planar outsiders.]
I plan to play it that way in my sandbox, but I wanted to see what others thought on the matter.
Well just because they traffic with outsiders doesn't mean they like outsiders, in fact look how many provinces Cheliax lost due to the change of power, I imagine most of the commoners and the like don't like how things are, they just buckle under so they don't get eaten (or worse). There is also the hatred of something you percieve as being better than you (envy) towards the tieflings for being closer to the power source of the kingdom (therefore easier to access it).
Certainly there's a good deal of social space between liking tieflings & and creating a tiefling "untouchable" caste. It's because tieflings are closer to the corridors of power, either by birth, family/House, or association that I think they would have a weird place in society. It's as though they were a group born to be used as a tool - for wielding arcane magic, for creating a bridge between worlds, even for showing loyalty (however false) to the Thrune-dictated party-line.
Half-elves at least are described as filling roles as liaisons and ambassadors between and among human & elven cultures which can gain them some level of acceptance and prestige (however begrudging or patronizing that might be). Tieflings are described/perceived as similar ambassadors between humans/mortals and devils/fiends/infernals, so in a land where that function is necessary or valued, the people doing the job would gain some kind of perfunctory authority or value.
Heck, even in the outlying/rebellious states of former-Cheliax, there's always some faction that supports "rejoining the motherland", or some traitor who seeks glory/wealth/revenge by betraying the rebels to their "imperial masters". Giving tieflings greater, but not entirely unconstrained, social mobility could make such characters an interesting element of those sorts of plots. [EDIT: And how can one dismiss the potential of the tiefling rebel spy, automatically accepted by the haughty & powerful and yet fatally ignored because of his/her race/status?]
I know this may be one of those, "that's how it works/worked in the real world" arguments, but I think this is more a product of fundamental "human behavior" rather than any particular social/cultural practice. If somebody is uniquely good at a socially-desirable function, yet is also considered repulsive for whatever reason, that's bound to create some kind of social-weirdness, whether on an individual or a group level. (And of course, weirdness -> drama *heh*)
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Keep in mind that In Cheliax the vast majority of people are paranoid and distrusting to begin with.
No! Never! ~Quickly calls the Cheliaxian Secret Police to deal with these people who are questioning the state~
~GRINS~
Keep in mind that In Cheliax the vast majority of people are paranoid and distrusting to begin with.
Quite true, but paranoia and distrust of one's social "equals" can lead to a weird relationship with people below you on the caste ladder. I could see a Citizen Kane/Hearst scenario where some crazed noble distrusts all his/her would-be allies except some trusted servant. Not that such a servant would have to be a tiefling, it could be a halfling or some other downtrodden "invisible servant" type.
Besides, why shouldn't Chelaxian tieflings share in the same widespread scheming for power and ambitious unpleasantness as (apparently) everybody else of note in Cheliax? Really, in-game, we're not generally talking about the people who "accept their lot" and live the common or generally-expected life. We're often talking about the folks who strive for something better/different than the norm.
I sort of expected the article to mention something along the lines of, "Tieflings live/are treated like outcaste dogs in general in Golarion, but Chelaxian tieflings are raised with an unbridled passion for world domination" or some-such. Kind of melodramatic, but you get the point.
A tiefling represents loss of control. Carnal relations with a servant is looked down upon due to the slave/master relationship as Chels see it.
Hadn't thought of that... But even if the child is an embarrassment to the birth parents/family, what of the grown adult in the world? Would tieflings be more accepted by groups that typically accept social outsiders - criminals, rebels, drafted/enlisted military, etc?
I haven't read the Cheliax PC book yet - are devils revered as avatars of the divine, or are all infernals perceived as useful servants at best and sentient tools at worst?
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Devils are tools used to obtain power. Chelish peoples seek to control and use devils, and not be beholden to them. When a Chelish person makes a contract with a devil they expect to be on the better side, and try to summon devils they are capable of controlling.
Chelish people see themselves as superior to everything, they really are the Nazis of Golarion (especially considering their original flag =p)
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Honestly Cheliax struct me more as LN than LE. Slightly evil, but the focus is the lawful.
So they're more interested in the rigid hierarchy of hell, and the whole "victory through strength" aspect (read: fascism), rather than the arcane corrupting evil aspect. I suppose that would make sense as taking a brutally logical step from the former imperial model. Sort of a supernatural realpolitik taken to its ultimate conclusion.
Now I'm starting to think of all kinds of questions about Chelish society - is there class movement, what do the "gentry"-types think, how do they treat fiendish "ambassadors", what is the measure of "success" among Chelish PCs, etc. Already planned to eventually, but now I'm really feeling the need to buy/read the book, and get a better feel for the whole society.
Still think Chelish-born tieflings would want their piece of the jack-booted, blood-soaked pie too though.
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The ruling caste of Cheliax, the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune, sees Hell as a blueprint for government and devils as tools that they can use to keep and maintain their power. They don't look up to devils, nor do they particularly aspire to serve them; they instead think that the devils should be serving Cheliax. The Church of Asmodeus has different opinions, of course, but they generally defer to the House of Thrune in Cheliax because, for now, this attitude is one that serves Asmodeus, even though the rulers of Cheliax aren't proper and deferential worshipers of him or Hell.
Given this, and given the fact that the Chelish government see devils as tools rather than allies, the concept of succumbing to devilish lust or (worse) falling in love with a devil is both shameful and sinful, a sign of weakness. Tieflings are proof of this fall from grace, and a tiefling son or daughter is something that other nobles see as a mark of such shame. So for the nobles, it's a loss of control and focus to be associated with tieflings, which are thought of as half-breed mistakes at best. They certainly aren't welcome in areas where nobility has control.
Unfortunately for the tieflings, there's no love among the commonfolk of Cheliax as well, but for different reasons. The commonfolk see tieflings as a symbol of all that's wrong with their nation; a symbol of all that they've lost now that the House of Thrune is in control. They fear tieflings, and what you fear you hate.
Due to this, there's really not much welcome for tieflings in Cheliax; and as such they have limited opportunities for a comfortable life. They're often forced to scavenge or turn to crime or to hide or disguise their heritage, which makes for a pretty crappy life. Most tieflings become evil as a result, and as bandits or thieves or thugs they do very little to fight the stereotype of the evil dangerous tiefling and plenty to encourage it.
Hmm, interesting setup for a "rude awakening" there - I assumed the major houses were savvy enough to realize that devils always come out on top of such arrangements, but that might've been my own "genre savvy" imposing on the country as-written. I also sort of interpreted that tieflings weren't exactly mob-on-sight material because of their presence in Riddleport & Korvosa (at least within the Acadamae).
But what then of the Church's stance on tieflings?
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Interesting hubris you built into the nation.The ruling caste of Cheliax, the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune, sees Hell as a blueprint for government and devils as tools that they can use to keep and maintain their power. They don't look up to devils, nor do they particularly aspire to serve them; they instead think that the devils should be serving Cheliax. The Church of Asmodeus has different opinions, of course, but they generally defer to the House of Thrune in Cheliax because, for now, this attitude is one that serves Asmodeus, even though the rulers of Cheliax aren't proper and deferential worshipers of him or Hell.
Given this, and given the fact that the Chelish government see devils as tools rather than allies, the concept of succumbing to devilish lust or (worse) falling in love with a devil is both shameful and sinful, a sign of weakness. Tieflings are proof of this fall from grace, and a tiefling son or daughter is something that other nobles see as a mark of such shame. So for the nobles, it's a loss of control and focus to be associated with tieflings, which are thought of as half-breed mistakes at best. They certainly aren't welcome in areas where nobility has control.
Unfortunately for the tieflings, there's no love among the commonfolk of Cheliax as well, but for different reasons. The commonfolk see tieflings as a symbol of all that's wrong with their nation; a symbol of all that they've lost now that the House of Thrune is in control. They fear tieflings, and what you fear you hate.
Due to this, there's really not much welcome for tieflings in Cheliax; and as such they have limited opportunities for a comfortable life. They're often forced to scavenge or turn to crime or to hide or disguise their heritage, which makes for a pretty crappy life. Most tieflings become evil as a result, and as bandits or thieves or thugs they do very little to fight the stereotype of the evil dangerous tiefling and plenty to encourage it.
...and this DM loves every single minute of it! :)
When I read that the first time, I went "Wow! they (Paizo) AGAIN found a way to surprise me". I was half-expecting tiefling to be the norm in Cheliax just because "it was devil-country", but the Paizo gang did not take the easy path once again! When you take a long hard look at it, it makes only sense that a land colonized by Taldor would act this way. Heck, they still idolize Taldor in some aspects, as far as I have been reading the Cheliax stuff...
James, please thank everyone involved in this plotline!
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Hmm, interesting setup for a "rude awakening" there - I assumed the major houses were savvy enough to realize that devils always come out on top of such arrangements, but that might've been my own "genre savvy" imposing on the country as-written. I also sort of interpreted that tieflings weren't exactly mob-on-sight material because of their presence in Riddleport & Korvosa (at least within the Acadamae).
But what then of the Church's stance on tieflings?
We'll cover a lot more of that, I suspect, in Pathfinder #29, which has the article on Asmodeus. I suspect that the Church is a bit more welcoming of them, but that in Cheliax the prejudice against tieflings holds in the church as well.
Anyway, while it might be fun to assume that devils ALWAYS come out on top on arrangements, the fact that the House of Thrune and Cheliax's other nobles seem to keep getting the upper hand speaks greatly to the fact that they're a really well-organized and intelligent government force, especially when it comes to dealing with devils. That said, a relatively important set of sub plots in "Council of Thieves" explores what happens when the devils DO get the upper hand, and when the Tieflings DO get fed up with the unfariness of it all.
Isn't the Chelexian "race" the purest descent from Azlanti (or at least claimed so)? I imagine any mixing of blood would be looked on by the proud Chelexians as dilution at best and miscegenation at worst.
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As I understand it, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but House Thrune (and the other human ruler of cheliax) see the devils as 'hired help', NOT as equal partners. And being true blue bloods to the end, one simply does not date the hired help, or treat them as any sort of equal.
So a Tiefling spawn would be a major social embarrassment.
Hmm, interesting setup for a "rude awakening" there - I assumed the major houses were savvy enough to realize that devils always come out on top of such arrangements, but that might've been my own "genre savvy" imposing on the country as-written. I also sort of interpreted that tieflings weren't exactly mob-on-sight material because of their presence in Riddleport & Korvosa (at least within the Acadamae).
But what then of the Church's stance on tieflings?
We'll cover a lot more of that, I suspect, in Pathfinder #29, which has the article on Asmodeus. I suspect that the Church is a bit more welcoming of them, but that in Cheliax the prejudice against tieflings holds in the church as well.
Anyway, while it might be fun to assume that devils ALWAYS come out on top on arrangements, the fact that the House of Thrune and Cheliax's other nobles seem to keep getting the upper hand speaks greatly to the fact that they're a really well-organized and intelligent government force, especially when it comes to dealing with devils. That said, a relatively important set of sub plots in "Council of Thieves" explores what happens when the devils DO get the upper hand, and when the Tieflings DO get fed up with the unfariness of it all.
The subplots that do seem to be going on are what make me think my group is going to love this path. Should make for some very interesting gameplay.
And while assuming devils always come out on top...unless you guys changed Asmodeus massively...um...does he ever really lose? I thought he just went to plan B...or C...or...whatever contigincy he needs at the moment =) (not that I'm an Asmodeus fan or anything...hes just...like...to cool...)
And while assuming devils always come out on top...unless you guys changed Asmodeus massively...um...does he ever really lose? I thought he just went to plan B...or C...or...whatever contigincy he needs at the moment =) (not that I'm an Asmodeus fan or anything...hes just...like...to cool...)
Plan B? Who's to say this isn't his "Plan A"? Immortal timelines being what they are, and all.
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That said, a relatively important set of sub plots in "Council of Thieves" explores what happens when the devils DO get the upper hand, and when the Tieflings DO get fed up with the unfariness of it all.
Got it! Well, I'll just "stay tuned" then. It may make for an interesting play-variant to run the AP from a fiend/tiefling perspective, like some folks ran Second Darkness from an elf/drow perspective. Curious.
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Also, have you *seen* devils in Pathfinder? How many have remotely human, let alone attractive, features? I know I'd look askance at someone whose grandma slept with a bone devil if I belonged to a world where the apple is thought not to fall too far from the tree!
Hmm, Cheliax might also see tieflings has born to serve as they see themselves as the rightful masters of Hell so they would see themselves as the rightful masters of tieflings.
Greater Hat of Disguise, Disguise Self, Alter Self, etc. There are loads of options for the powerful outsider to deceive and seduce any number of people.
There is then of course, just not taking "no" for an answer, and the fact that there doesn't even need to be any puckering up to the devil's derrière and infernal nooky for a tiefling to be made. The fiendish taint is strong enough in Cheliax that for some women their children get affected by it in the womb.
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Oh, so very true, but impressions matter more than reality in places like Cheliax. Just because you *say* you were spontaneously affected, doesn't mean the other Chelish will believe it. Either it occurred further down the lineage or you dallied with a tiefling and are now trying to cover it up....
After all, spontaneous tiefling births indicate that Hell has an unsavoury influence over the unborn and that runs counter to Chelish propaganda, so I imagine there'd be a lot of folks saying it could never happen ... even if it they knew it had.
Exactly, so for rulers of Cheliax, a tiefling is very much a sign that they don't have things under control, and for commoners that they have no control, there is no precaution that can be taken. And people like to feel in control, because it's all part of the plan...
Oh man, I so want to make a Joker tiefling now for my homebrew.
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Oh, so very true, but impressions matter more than reality in places like Cheliax. Just because you *say* you were spontaneously affected, doesn't mean the other Chelish will believe it. Either it occurred further down the lineage or you dallied with a tiefling and are now trying to cover it up....
After all, spontaneous tiefling births indicate that Hell has an unsavoury influence over the unborn and that runs counter to Chelish propaganda, so I imagine there'd be a lot of folks saying it could never happen ... even if it they knew it had.
Exactly, so for rulers of Cheliax, a tiefling is very much a sign that they don't have things under control, and for commoners that they have no control, there is no precaution that can be taken. And people like to feel in control, because it's all part of the plan...
Oh man, I so want to make a Joker tiefling now for my homebrew.
It's also a wonderful example of "Victim Blaming".
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It's also a wonderful example of "Victim Blaming".Oh, so very true, but impressions matter more than reality in places like Cheliax. Just because you *say* you were spontaneously affected, doesn't mean the other Chelish will believe it. Either it occurred further down the lineage or you dallied with a tiefling and are now trying to cover it up....
After all, spontaneous tiefling births indicate that Hell has an unsavoury influence over the unborn and that runs counter to Chelish propaganda, so I imagine there'd be a lot of folks saying it could never happen ... even if it they knew it had.
Exactly, so for rulers of Cheliax, a tiefling is very much a sign that they don't have things under control, and for commoners that they have no control, there is no precaution that can be taken. And people like to feel in control, because it's all part of the plan...
Oh man, I so want to make a Joker tiefling now for my homebrew.
Given the general misogyny of Asmodean and Chellish culture, I wouldn't be surprised if Blaming the Victim came up in its more traditional scenario as well. The place is a perfect breeding ground for developing villains that players love to hate.