So it seems to be pretty widely accepted that if you want to do the big damage, Two-Handed Weapons is the way to go. The Power Attack 2 for 1 deal (or 3 for 1, lol Leap Attack) makes putting out frankly embarrassing amounts of damage pretty easy.
This is not yet another Two-handed vs Two-weapon thread, by the way.
Anyway, in my next game I'm looking at how to make similar feats that give a similar boon to characters who want to focus on defense or precision. So I'm modifying Combat Expertise and making another feat I've tentatively named Precision Strike.
Combat Expertise: Prerequisites: Int 13.
Benefit: You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or full-attack action with a melee weapon. Subtract an amount up to your Intelligence modifier +2 (or your base attack bonus, whichever is lower, minimum 1) from your melee attack rolls for 1 round. Add the same amount as a Dodge bonus to your armor class for 1 round. If you are attacking with a one handed weapon in one hand, and not attacking with any other weapon in the round, the dodge bonus instead is equal to 1.5 times the attack penalty, rounded down.
The Int mod +2 modifier is a slight variation of the Pathfinder rules. I think it gives a nice balance between the old way and the new. Anyway, this will let someone more fencing-oriented or doing sword-and-board get more bang for their buck. I was debating doing a 2 for 1 deal, and I've seen it suggested here before, but that seemed like going a bit too far. It has been argued that attack is worth more than damage, so the two for one damage for attack deal makes some sense for Power Attack, but such a trade of attack for AC is harder to justify.
Here's the new feat:
Precision Strike: Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or full-attack action with a melee weapon. Add an amount up to your Dexterity modifier +2 (or your base attack bonus, whichever is lower, minimum 1) too your attack rolls for 1 round. If an attack made in this round is successful, subtract 2 points from the weapon damage for every 1 point of attack bonus you gain from this feat. If the weapon damage drops to zero or below, your attack does no damage, and any extra effects the attack might have (sneak attack damage, ability drain, elemental damage) does not occur. If you are attacking with a single light weapon, and not attacking with any other weapon in the round, you may only subtract 1 point of damage for each point of attack bonus from this feat. This feat cannot be used with Power Attack.
For example, Lidda is a eighth level Rogue with a +2 Flaming Rapier, a Dex of 16 and a Strength of 12. She does a Precision Strike on a flat-footed opponent, and adds 2 to her attack roll. She hits, and rolls her weapon damage, 1D6 +3 for a total of 6. She subtracts 4 from this damage, and ends up with 2. Since her weapon damage was greater than zero, she adds her sneak attack damage and the extra 1D6 fire damage from the flaming property of her rapier. Her second attack that round also gets a +2 bonus to attack, and also hits. Unfortunately, she rolls a 1 on the weapon damage die and only does 4 damage. This is reduced to zero damage, and so she does not get to add her sneak attack damage, nor the fire damage from the flaming property.
So it's a bit of a gamble, but would potentially be worth it for rogues who want to make sure their sneak attacks connect. Also, just like with a sneak attack, Damage Reduction an opponent might have doesn't come into effect until after the sneak attack dice have been rolled.
So, what do you think? Does it seem balanced? Do you think it will work in game? Am I a terrible fool who throw in the towel and burn my DMG in shame? Let me Know!
Edit: Threw in that attacks must be made with one hand in Combat Expertise to get the 1.5 bonus.
First, I don't think your premise re: 2H/2WF damage potential & Power Attack will hold in Pathfinder. Now that Power Attack works with Light/Off-Hand Weapons, PA gives the same damage increase either with one 2H weapon or Dual-Wield. Overhand Chop and Backswing were 2Handed-only damage Feats, but APPARENTLY they're not in the Final! I don't if there's a 'replacement' of some sort or not...
I also think (this may been revealed already in Previews?) that Combat Expertise will not be limited by INT beyond a Stat Pre-Req to take the Feat in the first place (like INT 13).
The "Reverse Power Attack" is an interesting concept, actually... Good for Rogues facing high AC as you said. But ultimately, I think those scenarios are IMPORTANT to differentiate lower BAB Rogues from full BAB Classes... In other words, just this one Feat makes Rogues' "flaky" Sneak Attack damage work (well) where it's NOT supposed to, in those situations which should EMPHASIZE the advantages of true Warrior classes. I like the symmetry of mechanic, but I wouldn't personally use that in my games.
Since power attack now is according to the preview.
Prescision strike would GREATLY overbalance the rogue. It would take away the only weakness of a rogue as a DPS machine, their lower to hit.
Well, that's kinda why I made these feats. I mean, if a barbarian is able to lower his attack to that of a rogues and easily pull off as much damage with PA, I figured a rogue should be able to sacrifice their off-hand attacks and some of their damage to be useful against a higher AC target. It's limited by both their dex and their base weapon damage, which limits the risk of abuse since if they go too high they're taking a pretty serious risk of doing no damage at all.
Also, x3 for Power Attack, huh? Well, that's quite the... uh... decision.
Finally, there is Power Attack, which grants a +2 bonus on damage for a –1 penalty on attack rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 beyond +4, the bonus to damage increases by +2 and the penalty increase by –1. Wielding a two-handed weapon increases the damage by 50%, whereas off-hand weapons get only half the damage bonus. Just thought I would let that cat out of the bag, since there has been quite a bit of speculation as to the exact formula
Hmm, that is pretty limiting. It's a damn good trade though. Wonder if they changed CE in a similar way.
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Hmm, that is pretty limiting. It's a damn good trade though. Wonder if they changed CE in a similar way.
Finally, there is Power Attack, which grants a +2 bonus on damage for a –1 penalty on attack rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 beyond +4, the bonus to damage increases by +2 and the penalty increase by –1. Wielding a two-handed weapon increases the damage by 50%, whereas off-hand weapons get only half the damage bonus. Just thought I would let that cat out of the bag, since there has been quite a bit of speculation as to the exact formulaIf you ask me whether or not I'd rather go -20/+40 on all my attacks, or -6/+18 on all of my attacks...and which of these would up my damage per round with iterative attacks the most...I'm -quite- sure that the latter would do a lot more damage.
This sure as hell makes power attack a must-have feat. Bad balance.
Ok, let me see if I follow you...
Fighters have always been seen as weak at higher levels.
Power attack for two handed weapons means that a 20th level fighter can do +18 damage for 'just' a -6. Making the feat at higher levels.
Yet the fact that PA now helps a fighter keep up at higher levels is unbalanced...
Right.
Ok, let me see if I follow you...
Fighters have always been seen as weak at higher levels.
Power attack for two handed weapons means that a 20th level fighter can do +18 damage for 'just' a -6. Making the feat at higher levels.
Yet the fact that PA now helps a fighter keep up at higher levels is unbalanced...
Right.
I'm not sure anyone has ever suggested that only Fighters can take Power Attack.
In most cases activating a want is a standard action, the exception is for spells that are swift actiosn to cast like Wraithstrike.What's the source for that? The SRD only says "standard action" for wands. I looked at the FAQ, which revised that to "standard action unless the spell in question has a longer casting time."
You are correct, casting Wraithstrike (a horribly broken spell from splatbooks that almost no good DM would allow) from a wand would be a standard action, dispite its casting time of 1 swift action. This is why scrolls of feather fall are so bad.
Wizard A is falling off a 100 foot precipice and scrambling through his bags for that scroll of feather fa...*splat*. Oh.
I'd like to point out that in 3.5 Power Attack was 100% necessary for 2 weapon fighters and still a very solid option for sword and board. It was, at the time, virtually the only way for warriors to scale damage to their level.
I would argue that everyone should be able to PA, or at least some mechanic similar like how Fighting Defensively is Combat Expertise for noobs.
Power Attack is now limited to your BAB or strength bonus, which ever is lower, as far as the Beta is concerned. I have no idea how it works in the final book.
A point to consider is that TWF'ers already have a -2 to hit, so they won't be power attacking unless they know it is a weak opponent. It just does not seem efficient to take power attack if you are a twf specialist.
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I mean, if a barbarian is able to lower his attack to that of a rogues and easily pull off as much damage with PA,mmm Power Attack doesn't come close to the amount of damage a Rogue can do.
Power Attack by BAB and damage if two-handed weapon
BAB PA penalty PA bonus
1 -1 3
4 -2 6
8 -3 9
12 -4 12
16 -5 15
20 -6 18Compare to a rogue of same level
Rogue Attack Penalty Damage Average Damage
1 0 +1d6 4
4 0 +2d6 7
8 0 +4d6 14
12 0 +6d6 21
16 0 +8d6 28
20 0 +10d6 35The difference increases at the highest levels when you factor iterative attacks. The Fighter gets 4 iterative attacks and could do an extra 72 damage. The Rogue gets 3 iterative attacks and could do an extra average of 105.
Granted the numbers in the Rogue's favor are not astronomical, but by no means is PA equal to a Rogue. Worse yet, since the Rogue can take PA the difference potentially becomes much much greater.
Something to think about before you boost Rogue damage. They are still the DPS masters. Not saying don't do it, or that it's a bad idea, just check those numbers and be sure you want rogues doing even more damage.
***EDIT***
BAH! Hate that formatting never works in the forums. But hopefully it makes sense.
<cough> Pathfinder Database <cough>