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I am running RoTRL and have just decided to do away with exp points and level up when it seems appropriate.
Does anyone know of a location of detailed suggestions for when to 'level up'?
I figured I would give this one it's own thread so as to not threadjack others.
I used this method when I ran SCAP (my first real time running a campaign as a DM) and it worked fantastically. I figured that this time I would use XP... and I am finding it is coming out to be almost the identical point I would have picked so far.
Anyway, I figured I would give this a stab for you since it will make my life of judging if they need a side trek easier as well.
Level 2 - Before Heading into the Catacombs of Wrath
Level 3 - Just before Thistletop
Level 4 - End of Burnt Offerings
Level 5 - Just before Misgivings
Level 6 - End of Misgivings
Level 7 - End of Skinsaw Murders
Level 8 - After Graul Farmstead
Level 9 - After retaking the Fort
(Maybe after the damn?)
Level 10 - End of Hook Mountain Massacre
Level 11 - Reaching Jorgenfist
(by XP I am guessing they would be part way through Jorgenfist, but I like the cleaner cut off point when using this method)
Level 12 - End of Fortress of the Stone Giants
Level 13 - Entering the Runeforge
(Like above, they would likely level within the runforge, but I like the cleaner line; that and if you add in a lot of RP like I do then there is a bigger lag caused by the time all that takes)
Level 14 - End of Sins of the Saviors
Level 15 - Entering the Pinnacle of Avarice
Level 16 - Beginning fight with Karzoug
Anyway... that is my suggestion roughly. I can only confirm the first three right now (my party is in Thistletop) as I didn't actually do any of the math to see where things happen, but looked for good story points.
Sean Mahoney
Sounds great. I'd like to add that I use this method of leveling up, too, so this kind of chart is extremely useful for me as well.
I'll try this out, and report back if it causes any problems. Doubt it will though, thanks!
This is very helpful, was just considering this the other day. My group has 6 players so I have been aiming for about 1 level behind your chart. been working good so far.
pretty much the same points I used...
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Very close to what I've been using. You may want to have level 7 happen just BEFORE the end of the Skinsaw Murders, as the final battle is very difficult for all but the most prepared parties.
I ran the party against the final opponent twice - once at 6th level, and again at 7th. The 6th level battle was a TPK without DM intervention. The 7th level version went much better (though they only drove off the final opponent).
Food for thought.
Maybe after the damn what? :-)
The Damnable Dam apparently
I'm all for leveling as a big reward, but I would in all cases recommend allowing the PCs to level just before the end boss of a given AP Chapter.
Thanks for setting this up.
I would agree on the first two save that you need to level up before the last encounter. The points for HMM fit with my concept- though I will again probably level up just befiore the final encounter.
My group is 6-7 pcs who have been pathfinderized so I will probably run them a level or so behind.
CEO
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I have six PCs, so I am leveling them up later than normal to counteract the extra power in the party. We are playing through the end of Hook Mountain and this is what I did.
Level 2 - Before Heading into the Catacombs of Wrath
Level 3 - End of Burnt Offerings
Level 4 - Just before Misgivings
Level 5 -Just after Misgivings
Level 6 - Just after the fight with the cult
Level 7 - After Graul Farmstead
Level 8 - After retaking the Fort
Level 9 - End of Hook Mountain Massacre
So far, they are doing very well with only a few real scares. I could probably have them a level lower and they still wouldn't be too weak. AND I don't allow them to buy stuff from magic shops.
-Lisa
I have six PCs, so I am leveling them up later than normal to counteract the extra power in the party.
.......
So far, they are doing very well with only a few real scares. I could probably have them a level lower and they still wouldn't be too weak. AND I don't allow them to buy stuff from magic shops.
Thanks Lisa, this is very helpful! It sounds like I'll be running a similar campaign: 6 PCs, and conservative in the magic items department. Having "only a few real scares" sounds perfect; you definitely need some scares, but I'm not one for TPK's. Thanks for the valuable info!
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CEO
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Lisa,
Since it looks like I might have 5-6 players, I was especially interested in your input for 'leveling rate for larger groups'.Do you have suggested leveling points past Hook Mountain?
I know my group is a ways off from this, but I'm looking for recommendations for leveling rate for a larger group through Fortress, Sins, and Spires.
Well, I haven't gotten too much further into the campaign, but have given some thought to this, so here goes:
Level 9 - start of Fortress of the Stone Giants
Level 10 - when the characters go beneath Jorgenfist
Level 11 - start of Sins of the Saviors
Level 12 - when they enter Runeforge
Level 13 - start of Spires of Xin-Shalast
Level 14 - when they enter Xin-Shalast
Level 15 - when they enter the Pinnacle of Avarice or perhaps before they encounter Karzoug
Of course, these are subject to change as we move forward, but that is what I am thinking right now.
-Lisa
I have six PCs, so I am leveling them up later than normal to counteract the extra power in the party. We are playing through the end of Hook Mountain and this is what I did.
Level 2 - Before Heading into the Catacombs of Wrath
Level 3 - End of Burnt Offerings
Level 4 - Just before Misgivings
Level 5 -Just after Misgivings
Level 6 - Just after the fight with the cult
Level 7 - After Graul Farmstead
Level 8 - After retaking the Fort
Level 9 - End of Hook Mountain Massacre
This sounds familiar. My PCs have leveled up like you posted and I may start to use your method. I have used medium advacement and sometimes I have feared that someone will die but they have survived. Thanks Lisa ^^
This thread is excellent, helped me with some of my GM'ing dilemmas in RotRL. Thanks everybody !
And did I mention how cool is it to have the CEO chime in on *gaming* discussion ? Woot !
On this thread, I am wearing my GM hat and not my CEO hat. But the Woot is still appreciated. :)
-Lisa
Oh sure, I start a thread with some good info and all the credit goes to Lisa... I see how it is... start one really awsome gaming company that brings the fans who are looking for this information tons of good times and suddenly you are 'all that'.
Just kidding, I think it is fantastic that Lisa is 'eating her own dogfood' as they put it when I contracted with HP. To see the CEO here talking about her game that is running with the same products she is putting out really shows they care a lot and are gamers.
Sean Mahoney
As a side note, I am still running this campaign for my group of 4 using 3.5 rules. I had decided to give experience points a try this time to give some chances for people to spend XP on things like crafting and apparently psychic reformation (or something... crazy psions). It seems to be working out VERY close to what I anticipated above.
I have had to hand out a few story awards here and there, but typically I am doing this more because they are within spitting distance of the next level when we end a gaming session and I would rather they use off time to level up instead of game time.
However, because it IS coming out so close, it makes me wonder if I shouldn't just go back to using the story driven method of levelling rather than XP. There isn't a ton of uses that my PCs have for spending the XP anyway. I will have to talk to them and see what they think.
It is also a lot easier to not worry about handing out XP after every fight, but that could just be a habit type thing.
Sean Mahoney
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CEO
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Of course, I've always been a fan of using XP to reward play.... which is a two-edged-sword that might be able to stand on its own as a topic (if it hasn't already been discussed to death somewhere else on these forums).
I like XP as a measure of what your characters have accomplished, for sure, but also as a metric for what the PLAYER has done. I happen to enjoy playing in (and running) a game where people try to stay in character, and really try to ROLE play.... that makes a huge difference to me in terms of suspension of disbelief and the ability to 'immerse' yourself in the game.
I've played with XP systems that reward standard killing (PC accomplishment), story awards (succeeded in non-killing in-game challenges), and ROLE playing.
I personally enjoy being rewarded for trying to stay in the role and acting in character, but it can end up being divisive when some players get their feelings hurt because they didn't get max XP for roleplaying (whether they earned it or not). I don't like PC or Player strife, so this clouds the situation for me a bit.Anyways... that was a long way for me to say that I prefer pre-planned advancement points along the story arc, but I miss the added 'carrot' to get players really interested in ROLE playing their characters...
MSG
You can always give out other rewards such as minor magic items, contacts, favors from NPCs, and other such stuff. I think these kind of in-game rewards and much cooler than XP rewards and they don't need to unbalance the game to be cool.
-Lisa
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Level 4 - End of Burnt Offerings
Level 5 - Just before Misgivings
Am I missing something here? Aren't there like 1, maybe 2 combat encounters (plus some investigation/roleplay) between these two events? It seems level 4 lasts all of 2 hours.
Level 9 - After retaking the Fort
(Maybe after the damn?)Level 10 - End of Hook Mountain Massacre
Again, wouldn't level 9 be really short here? Admittedly there is more going on here than above (Lamatar, Barl, appeasing the ghost) but still, not much right?
Level 12 - End of Fortress of the Stone GiantsLevel 13 - Entering the Runeforge
Isn't there like only 1 encounter between these two events as well? It's a big one, but just travel and 1 fight. Worse, it's "get to the dungeon, fight on the doorstep, level up and enter".
I am really keen on trying this, since xp is no longer a "currency" to pay for a death tax, item-creation tax or really-cool-spell tax. But having never run this AP either way, I'm having trouble visualizing how this method would work given the three tricky points I list above. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Am I missing something here? Aren't there like 1, maybe 2 combat encounters (plus some investigation/roleplay) between these two events? It seems level 4 lasts all of 2 hours.
I was still using XP when my guys got here. The Misgivings has a lot of encounters in there, and I wouldn't be surprised if your players need a break midway through. You can either throw in some bonus material between books 1 and 2, or just look for an opportunity to hand out level 5 mid-Misgivings.
Again, wouldn't level 9 be really short here? Admittedly there is more going on here than above (Lamatar, Barl, appeasing the ghost) but still, not much right?
Give level 9 after they retake the fort, then you've got the ettin, exhausted ogres, trolls, skrag, Black Magga (if you're using that encounter), and the Hook Mountain encampment before level 10. Works out just fine.
Isn't there like only 1 encounter between these two events as well? It's a big one, but just travel and 1 fight. Worse, it's "get to the dungeon, fight on the doorstep, level up and enter".
Runeforge is huge, and I would (and will) definitely just keep an eye out for a good plot-related opportunity to hand out 13 during Runeforge sometime.
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I am considering trying this next time I run a campaign, which will be this one. (I trade off with another DM and he's currently running Age of Worms, so I'm playing).
Anyway, I have some questions about how you handle a few things related to the application of this system instead of handing out XP each night.
1) How do you handle getting people being permanently level drained, resurrected, etc? They lose levels, but the XP difference numerically between level 6 and 7 is less than at 14 and 15, for instance, meaning that eventually the lost level will be at least partly caught up later in the game. If I have to start a new PC when the party is 6th level, and the rest of the group is 7th, how would I ever catch up without a totally arbitrary "hey you level twice this time, while the rest get one."?
2) XP is often seen as a bit of an incentive to have good attendance at games. We don't have an attendance issue in our group, but if you're not feeling terribly well one night and just don't feel like gaming for whatever reason, sometimes the thought of missing out on your xp for the night is enough to get your lazy @$$ going to the game. Missing games takes away some of the fun for everybody, so it's important that they show whenever possible. Is that a problem you see when you do it this way? If you do have people who consistently miss, do you "punish" them by not letting them level now and then, or through some other in-game mechanic?
I'm sure there was something else, but can't remember now what it was. :)
Thanks for replies. :)
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I level up using the Sean K. Reynolds "Steps" System. Essentially if the players show up to play for four hours, no matter what happens I give them at least 1 step. If something particularly dramatic happens (fight a boss, clear out a dungeon, survive the sudden but inevitable betrayal e.t.c) then I level them up two steps.
Players that don't show up miss out on a step, but knowing my players nobody really ends up too far ahead or behind.
Good questions... I will do what I can to answer how we deal with them.
1) How do you handle getting people being permanently level drained, resurrected, etc? They lose levels, but the XP difference numerically between level 6 and 7 is less than at 14 and 15, for instance, meaning that eventually the lost level will be at least partly caught up later in the game. If I have to start a new PC when the party is 6th level, and the rest of the group is 7th, how would I ever catch up without a totally arbitrary "hey you level twice this time, while the rest get one."?
We changed the level loss mechanics for our game prior to changing over to an automatic level up system. We have really tried to remove some of the mechanics that our group just found to be less fun. Permanent loss of level was one of them. We also would start a new player at the same level as everyone else. We see the game itself as the reward for playing, no so much xp as the reward.
(we did the same thing for save or die mechanic which were not seen as very fun and changed them to put the person at -8 hp and bleeding).
2) XP is often seen as a bit of an incentive to have good attendance at games. We don't have an attendance issue in our group, but if you're not feeling terribly well one night and just don't feel like gaming for whatever reason, sometimes the thought of missing out on your xp for the night is enough to get your lazy @$$ going to the game. Missing games takes away some of the fun for everybody, so it's important that they show whenever possible. Is that a problem you see when you do it this way? If you do have people who consistently miss, do you "punish" them by not letting them level now and then, or through some other in-game mechanic?
Currently we are set to play every other Saturday from noon to midnight or whenever we break up. We ask for a commitment from any player who is joining the group to make this on a consistent basis. While we understand that things can and do come up, it doesn't take each person missing very many before the game just doesn't work. We don't play the game if someone can't make it as we find the other options (fade into the background, someone else plays character, etc.) not to be good alternatives for our tastes, but we do meet anyway and play board games or card games (I think this goes a long way to keeping the group together).
Anyway, for use that means that the missing a session thing isn't an issue for XP.
I guess what I would recommend doing is talking to the group as a whole and look for a consensus on what is the most fun for them. If they are just likely to have fun with the story then the XP incentives and disincentives are not really necessary and you can keep everyone at the same level.
Sean Mahoney
Am I missing something here? Aren't there like 1, maybe 2 combat encounters (plus some investigation/roleplay) between these two events? It seems level 4 lasts all of 2 hours.
Level 4 - End of Burnt Offerings
Level 5 - Just before Misgivings
Yea, Thistletop is really big. I'd be tempted to do the level up at the start of the second dungeon level.
Again, wouldn't level 9 be really short here? Admittedly there is more going on here than above (Lamatar, Barl, appeasing the ghost) but still, not much right?Level 9 - After retaking the Fort
(Maybe after the damn?)Level 10 - End of Hook Mountain Massacre
The flood, Whitewillow, Skull's Crossing, and Hook Mountain should come out to about a level. If it doesn't it should be pretty close.
Isn't there like only 1 encounter between these two events as well? It's a big one, but just travel and 1 fight. Worse, it's "get to the dungeon, fight on the doorstep, level up and enter".
Level 12 - End of Fortress of the Stone GiantsLevel 13 - Entering the Runeforge
I think you forgot about the part below the Catacombs of Wrath with Scribbler. That part plus the dragon should come out to about a level.
Of course, these level-ups are placed at "clean spots" where it's easiest to take the time to level up characters. They may eb a little earlier/later than they should be because of this.
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Yeah, thanks Shad0wdrag0n, after I posted those questions I went back and re-read the last half of the AP and found those spots. I think my group will get 3rd level as they prepare to enter Thistletop and 4th as they come out. I will have a 5 man party, so I might not let them hit 5th until after Misgivings, I am not sure.
Yeah, thanks Shad0wdrag0n, after I posted those questions I went back and re-read the last half of the AP and found those spots. I think my group will get 3rd level as they prepare to enter Thistletop and 4th as they come out. I will have a 5 man party, so I might not let them hit 5th until after Misgivings, I am not sure.
It might be a good idea to wait with 5th level until te party reaches Magnimar. If a PC contracts Vorel's Fage it might help you get the party to Magnimar since curing it is beyond 4th level characters and any one in Sandpoint.
I do not think it will be necesary though but it is a good card to keep up your sleve and will not affect any encounters directly.
I'm bumping this because it was hard to locate earlier.
I've adopted this method as well. I ran Shackled City to completion using it and it worked quite well.
The only times I ran into issues were when XP debt came into the game. The first time was when a PC lost a level to death. I simply waited until such a time as the XP for his level would even out with the others and had him level an extra time at a mid-way point between progression points. This was essentially a level twice idea, but a little slower so it worked out well.
In SCAP I had two characters with level adjustments and I did the same thing for them. By the time the party hit 4-5th level everyone was caught up with everyone else.
A problem I did not figure in came up later. I decided to use craft points as detailed in Unearthed Arcana for the creation of magic items but didn't think of permanency. I devised a mechanic that required a GP cost equal to the XP cost and then gave each PC a number of 'permanency slots' similar to the magic item slot concept. I gave everyone 3 slots but they could spend a feat on 2 more slots.
Once I introduced the slot system it put permanent spell effects back on par with where they usually are in a game instead of the way too many that the party dumped on themselves at first. Every character filled up their 3 slots and the mage dropped a feat to get 2 more. It worked out great and is how I handle permanency now.
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I'm having a group with 3 players for now (more persons might join later, but let's face the facts first). How much earlier do you guys recommend that I level up my players? Is there any fact about this topic that might be useful for me before I run this AP? :-o
PS: sorry for short post, writing from my phone... :-P