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AKA: If the class that's the most restrictive on what options it allows is okay with homosexuality, then by extension ALL classes must be okay with it.
I'm not sure that is true at all. I personally dont care one way or the other about homosexuality in or out of game, but I do think that making a paladin gay (with a few deity specific exceptions) is wrong, and kind of going against a core tenet of the Class. (see below)
100% on purpose. And I'm really glad that folks noticed it, and even more delighted that the vast majority of those who noticed liked it.
I'm curious how you know/why you believe this? I'm not trying to be snarky with the question, I'm honestly curious.
One of my pet peeves is people who conflate paladins in a fantasy world serving fantasy deities with Christian knights. There is absolutely nothing in the literature that equates any of these deities with Christianity, and some (possibly all of them) may be completely sex positive or sex neutral.
Untrue. Christian ideals where one of the major, if not most major influences of the class design and flavor. As where they for the Cleric. While there is no Christianity or even a close approximate in Golarion, he class(es) itself is based off of it heavily. The other thing is, (regardless of the view that homosexuality is good or evil in your PoV), Paladins are all about tradition, order, chaste, virtuous beliefs. Chivalry and traditional views do not support (and do not necissarily oppress because of it) homosexuality as right in the game or in the real world. Religious doctrine in the real world almost universally states homosexualty as wrong, sinful, or more along the lines of glutinous than evil, which Paizo has not included or touched on in most cases witht heir deities outside of one and noted specifically one or two that are all for it.
While I'm not suggesting that a Paladin woulf be a gay hunter, it's a pretty big suspension of belief to have a Paladin be an active supporter of homosexuality when that does violate some of the core tenets of being a Paladin, just like being an active supporter of chaotic rebels attempting to dethrone the rightful ruler of a nation would be against the core idea of a Paladin.
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I don't think you'll find anything in any Paizo material showing that homosexuality violates the core tenants of the Paladin.
You can then say that the Pathfinder Paladin is not a true Paladin, but I don't think anyone will actually care. Plenty of people have said 'that's no true Scotsman' about almost everything in the game.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't think you'll find anything in any Paizo material showing that homosexuality violates the core tenants of the Paladin.
You can then say that the Pathfinder Paladin is not a true Paladin, but I don't think anyone will actually care. Plenty of people have said 'that's no true Scotsman' about almost everything in the game.
Except, maybe Scotsmen.
(Aside, I can see some sects of Erastil looking at homosexuality as wrong. especially if they teach sex is for procreation, not recreation. Likewise, I can see sects of Lamashtu encouraging same sex relationships for similar reasons.)
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[Goes to scour the internet for any of Charlemagne's paladins who might have been into man love]
A post equating the paladin's code with Christian values, edited for space.
Do the various specific deities' codes mention celibacy and/chastity very often? (that's an honest question, not snark, I don't have the Faiths of Whatnot books.) The CRB's entry doesn't.
I can quite easily imagine a paladin from one of Golarion's more permissive culture's being an "active supporter of homosexuality", unless that means a crusader who demands that hetero-sexuals enter into same sex marriages.
Edit: Ninja'd while formulating my thoughts.
Also Doodlebug, it's not gay if we're just, like, totally manly brothers in arms, okay?
Come on! Take a look at the paladin of Shelyn in Faiths of Purity and tell me paladins can't be gay. :-)
Well, "Charlemagne paladin gay" doesn't reveal anything except World of Warcraft videos in Russian.
:(
I guess we'll just to go with Galasomeoneorother up above. Also, T.H. White. Does that count?
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I think I missed the announcement of the trans* iconic? When/where was it revealed that one was trans*? Because it would make my millennium if I could truly identify with one of the iconics...We've said for some time that there's at least two gay iconics (one male, one female), one bisexual iconic, and one trans iconic. There could well be more. But until the time is right and appropriate we had no plans to reveal that.
The comic is the right place to reveal those things; we've now revealed Kyra is gay and heavily implied that Merisiel is bisexual. More revelations about the iconics will come along in the years to come, maybe or maybe not in this or another comic, maybe or maybe not in an entirely different medium. The time has to be right is all.
Why hide it at all? It is a bit frustrating to not know who the gay male one is =(
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One of my pet peeves is people who conflate paladins in a fantasy world serving fantasy deities with Christian knights. There is absolutely nothing in the literature that equates any of these deities with Christianity, and some (possibly all of them) may be completely sex positive or sex neutral.Untrue. Christian ideals where one of the major, if not most major influences of the class design and flavor. As where they for the Cleric. While there is no Christianity or even a close approximate in Golarion, he class(es) itself is based off of it heavily. The other thing is, (regardless of the view that homosexuality is good or evil in your PoV), Paladins are all about tradition, order, chaste, virtuous beliefs. Chivalry and traditional views do not support (and do not necissarily oppress because of it) homosexuality as right in the game or in the real world. Religious doctrine in the real world almost universally states homosexualty as wrong, sinful, or more along the lines of glutinous than evil, which Paizo has not included or touched on in most cases witht heir deities outside of one and noted specifically one or two that are all for it.
Your logic is faulty. That the classes were originally inspired by Christianity places no restriction upon their implementation within the game to be compatible with Christianity. You obviously wish to play them that way, and need to suspend your disbelief to consider them otherwise. That's fine, but it is not a limitation imposed by the game.
The fact that the paladin in question has caused you to think about the possibility is exactly what I suspect it was designed to do.
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Player 1: I want to play a gay Paladin.
GM: Sorry. Paladins are based on Christian values. No go here.
Player 1: Wha? /sadpandaface. OK, I'll play a Cleric of Nethys then.
Player 2: OK, I want to play a dwarf Paladin of Torag.
Player 1: Dude, but that's gonna be turbo difficult, your PC is going to try to convert me all the time! You're gonna tell me that Nethys is a false deity!
GM: What? No, no. Converting non-believers is not a part of Paladin code. And why would a Paladin have a problem with somebody worshipping other deities?
Player 1: But you said it's based on Christian values?
GM: Ummm....LOOK, A MONKEY!
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The idea that gay relationships is universally condemned by religion throughout history has no basis in fact. Greek and Roman faiths are well known, but also many native american faiths and even christianity in the past accepted same sex relationships. See here.. Golarion mirrors much more than simply medieval europe. It would be nice to see aspects of the world that were intolerant to it, the cult of razmir would make an excellent antagonist in such a role for a paladin of shelyn.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It would be nice to see aspects of the world that were intolerant to it, the cult of razmir would make an excellent antagonist in such a role for a paladin of shelyn.
Too easy. Plus why would Razmir care? As long as they tithe, I'm pretty sure the old man doesn't care who's bonking who.
Erastil was the first that came to mind, cults of Adabar too (how can you spread civilization if you don't procreate?) Saranae because of her 'Arabian knights' theme (and the burners).
On the 'pro-gay, not good' side...
I could see Norgberger being invoked a lot to 'keep my secret love'.
Lamashtu, like I mentioned above.
Gorzeh cultists might do a gender change, to fit with his/her dual nature.
Asmodeaus? Sign here please.
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All I'm hoping is that these core tenants people keep talking about have a good landlord.
All I'm hoping is that these core tenants people keep talking about have a good landlord.
Lawful Good even.
Creative Director
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100% on purpose. And I'm really glad that folks noticed it, and even more delighted that the vast majority of those who noticed liked it.I'm curious how you know/why you believe this? I'm not trying to be snarky with the question, I'm honestly curious.
I believe this because folks are talking about it, therefore that makes me believe they noticed it. And of all the folks who mentioned it to me or mentioned it here on these boards, they seemed to approve of it. Those who don't are, as far as I can tell, a minority. Which, to me, is a good thing and a sign of social progress.
And whether or not Christian ideals were a big influence on the original design of the paladin class back in the day, they were not during the design of Pathfinder's version of it, and they certainly are not for any of the in-world content. CERTAINLY nothing ever published in Pathfinder OR D&D specifically prohibits paladins from being homosexual.
And if there were, I'm really glad I missed them.
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AKA: If the class that's the most restrictive on what options it allows is okay with homosexuality, then by extension ALL classes must be okay with it.I'm not sure that is true at all. I personally dont care one way or the other about homosexuality in or out of game, but I do think that making a paladin gay (with a few deity specific exceptions) is wrong, and kind of going against a core tenet of the Class. (see below)
100% on purpose. And I'm really glad that folks noticed it, and even more delighted that the vast majority of those who noticed liked it.I'm curious how you know/why you believe this? I'm not trying to be snarky with the question, I'm honestly curious.
One of my pet peeves is people who conflate paladins in a fantasy world serving fantasy deities with Christian knights. There is absolutely nothing in the literature that equates any of these deities with Christianity, and some (possibly all of them) may be completely sex positive or sex neutral.Untrue. Christian ideals where one of the major, if not most major influences of the class design and flavor. As where they for the Cleric. While there is no Christianity or even a close approximate in Golarion, he class(es) itself is based off of it heavily.
<snip lots of stuff about how paladins should have an issue with homosexuality>
Christianity doesn't exist in Golarion. While the cultural streams that combined in Christianity may have led to a belief that homosexuality is wrong, those cultural streams don't exist in Golarion, and in a world where homosexuality is not considered wrong by most cultures (and has, presumably, never been considered wrong), there aren't any "traditions" of homophobia for paladins to uphold. Paladins may have been based on elements of Christian knights, but they're not Christian knights, any more than Golarion's wizards are kabbalists.
Similarly, the cultural streams that produced Christianity's ambivalence (and even negativity) toward sex (primarily a misunderstanding of the Jewish concept of ritual purity -- as translated, "impurity" having a different connotation in other cultures/languages -- combining with the Hellenistic mind-body dichotomy and subsequent denigration of the physical, with Paul's and various Christian church fathers' personal views tying a bow on it) don't exist in Golarion, and the concept of "purity" is not equated with celibacy (check out the forthcoming Champions of Purity for more on what "purity" means, generally, in the context of those who follow various codes/creeds).
Chivalry and traditional views do not support (and do not necissarily oppress because of it) homosexuality as right in the game
Incorrect, as James (and others) have pointed out several times.
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With all due respect, I don't think you're EVER going to find Paizo refusing to publish something because it contradicts Christian values.
And while our made-up gods all have different stances on sexuality--as that makes for a fun and diverse range of stories--on the whole Golarion's pretty sexually progressive compared to mainstream U.S. culture. Perhaps folks will see that as escapism, but in my mind, when folks are regularly marrying non-human races and having children with them, gender preferences seem like a much smaller issue.
Which isn't to say there's no prejudice in Golarion. Prejudice is everywhere--based on gender, religion, race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc.--and is useful in creating both heroes and villains. So if you want to play a character that's totally squicked out by homosexuality--or who was raised in that sort of environment--that's your prerogative, and there are certainly communities in every nation where that might be the case. But it's never going to be our baseline, because to hell with that. We're building the world that is most interesting to us. Hopefully it's interesting to you, too!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The important thing is that Paizo never, ever portrays those filthy straight foot-haired halfings as anything other than the mongrel misfits they are. They're not even really halflings, and should be treated no better than goblins.
Also, does the halfling version of the saying "does the carpet match the drapes" have a third element to it ("does the table cloth match the carpet and the drapes?")
James (or Jessica, JJ, or anyone else who might care to answer), this question may get a bit arcane, but does the classification "homosexual" even exist in Golarion? That is, if none of the cultural streams that condemn homosexuality exist, is sexual preference seen as worth classifying beyond a "what's your type" level of preference? I suppose the answer could well vary from culture to culture.
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I believe this because folks are talking about it, therefore that makes me believe they noticed it. And of all the folks who mentioned it to me or mentioned it here on these boards, they seemed to approve of it.100% on purpose. And I'm really glad that folks noticed it, and even more delighted that the vast majority of those who noticed liked it.I'm curious how you know/why you believe this? I'm not trying to be snarky with the question, I'm honestly curious.
I was asking more about the approved of it part. You could be right, I'm just curious what made you assume that most people approved of it. Seems like most people that would not like or approve it would either avoid threads like this (or mentioning it to you or anyone) or not comment on the idea as they probably changed it (or had it changed) without even knowing it was there.
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Untrue. Christian ideals where one of the major, if not most major influences of the class design and flavor. As where they for the Cleric. While there is no Christianity or even a close approximate in Golarion, he class(es) itself is based off of it heavily. The other thing is, (regardless of the view that homosexuality is good or evil in your PoV), Paladins are all about tradition, order, chaste, virtuous beliefs. Chivalry and traditional views do not support (and do not necissarily oppress because of it) homosexuality as right in the game or in the real world.
Your logic is faulty. That the classes were originally inspired by Christianity places no restriction upon their implementation within the game to be compatible with Christianity. You obviously wish to play them that way, and need to suspend your disbelief to consider them otherwise. That's fine, but it is not a limitation imposed by the game.
You seem to have missed the few times I mentioned that there is no Christianity anlogue in Golarion. It is a limitation impossed by the game unless you ignor the flavor of the class, such as that Paladins are all about traditional values, the holiness of matrimony, and other things like that. It seems that it's more that you want them to be played that way, but the class itself.
The fact that the paladin in question has caused you to think about the possibility is exactly what I suspect it was designed to do.
Not really. No more than say "can a Paladin use Poison and not fall". It's just something that does not work with the Paladin.
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A post equating the paladin's code with Christian values, edited for space.
Do the various specific deities' codes mention celibacy and/chastity very often? (that's an honest question, not snark, I don't have the Faiths of Whatnot books.) The CRB's entry doesn't.
I can quite easily imagine a paladin from one of Golarion's more permissive culture's being an "active supporter of homosexuality", unless that means a crusader who demands that hetero-sexuals enter into same sex marriages.
Edit: Ninja'd while formulating my thoughts.
Also Doodlebug, it's not gay if we're just, like, totally manly brothers in arms, okay?
Most do not mention one way or the other, but as I said at least one would be actively against it (not martially, per se) while a few are actively for it, 9though they are almost universaly Chaotic so don't apply to Paladin's).
Not to pile on, but I'd like some clarification on "traditional values" too; in a setting with as many cultures as Golarion, it's a fuzzy edged concept.
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Your logic is faulty. That the classes were originally inspired by Christianity places no restriction upon their implementation within the game to be compatible with Christianity. You obviously wish to play them that way, and need to suspend your disbelief to consider them otherwise. That's fine, but it is not a limitation imposed by the game.You seem to have missed the few times I mentioned that there is no Christianity anlogue in Golarion. It is a limitation impossed by the game unless you ignor the flavor of the class, such as that Paladins are all about traditional values, the holiness of matrimony, and other things like that. It seems that it's more that you want them to be played that way, but the class itself.
The fact that the paladin in question has caused you to think about the possibility is exactly what I suspect it was designed to do.Not really. No more than say "can a Paladin use Poison and not fall". It's just something that does not work with the Paladin.
Traditional values maybe, but theirs not ours. Matrimony is not mentioned in the CRB. Paladins are defined entirely by the precepts of their deity - "embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve". Even 'traditional' is out of scope - their deity may be progressive. There is nothing in the class that limits it such that it '[does] not support homosexuality as right'. People may choose to play it that way, but that is the person, not the class.
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You seem to have missed the few times I mentioned that there is no Christianity anlogue in Golarion. It is a limitation impossed by the game unless you ignor the flavor of the class, such as that Paladins are all about traditional values, the holiness of matrimony, and other things like that. It seems that it's more that you want them to be played that way, but the class itself.
Which "traditional" christian values should the paladins represent? Holiness of matrimony doesn't really apply since the historic figures that best match paladins (and even clerics) would have been monastic and thus without their own traditional families.
Should we consider monotheism and antipathy (or even outright hostility) to other religions and heresies part of the traditional christian values of the paladin? Knightly orders were certainly instrumental in expanding Christendom and suppressing alternatives at the point of a sword. But I should think that Golarion's (and even traditional AD&D's) polytheism make those particular traditions utterly untenable. And if it is the case that we can pick and choose which traditions to incorporate into the paladin's inspirations, then we can certainly dispense with restricted matrimony, stifling aristocratic hierarchies, and misogyny in favor of something more pure and unencumbered by negative historical characteristics, prejudices, small-mindedness, and ignorance.
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It is a limitation impossed by the game unless you ignor the flavor of the class, such as that Paladins are all about traditional values, the holiness of matrimony, and other things like that. It seems that it's more that you want them to be played that way, but the class itself.
That's your personal take on the paladin, not what's actually written about it in the rulebook.
Here's the description of the paladin code as actually written in the Core Rulebook:
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future.
Role: Paladins serve as beacons for their allies within the chaos of battle. While deadly opponents of evil, they can also empower goodly souls to aid in their crusades. Their magic and martial skills also make them well suited to defending others and blessing the fallen with the strength to continue fighting.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
There's nothing in there about "traditional values." (Given that a paladin is serving a particular deity, and that each deity has her own differing traditions and values, identifying universal "traditional values" would be difficult at best.)
And there's especially nothing in there about "the holiness of matrimony."
You may play paladins however you want in your own game, but your take on what a paladin should be is not in the rules as written. But please recognize that it is your personal take, no more.
EDIT: Ninja'ed by everyone else.
If I may add though...
Based on the write up of Erastil, wouldn't a Paladin to Ol' Deadeye hold up the holiness of matrimony?
I think so, but that's a James question, probably. :-)
As I said above, specific deities have different traditions/ethical codes/etc. that they may expect their paladins to uphold. But there's nothing about particular views on sex, marriage, orientation, etc. in the basic, vanilla paladin description.
What about gay goblin paladins? Are they cool?
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If I may add though...
Based on the write up of Erastil, wouldn't a Paladin to Ol' Deadeye hold up the holiness of matrimony?
In Golarion, "matrimony" doesn't necessarily mean a partnership between a man and woman, though. So a faith that upholds the sanctity of such unions would honor any such partnership, including those of people of the same sex. The same debates about what can and can't be called a marriage don't exist in Golarion, which is frankly a nice sort of world to imagine.
He's the best candidate, but as long as the couple is supporting the community, why would he care if they are same sex?
He might for the sake of producing progeny. But even if he did favor heterosexual marriage on those grounds, who's to say he would oppose homosexual marriage? It might just fall into the realm of somewhat less favored arrangement, but still approved.
It's like being picked up in a bar by a hot redhead or a hot brunette (yes, major hypothetical here - I am a married man). I dig red hair so my preferred arrangement would be to be picked up by the redhead. But I sure wouldn't turn the brunette down.
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James (or Jessica, JJ, or anyone else who might care to answer), this question may get a bit arcane, but does the classification "homosexual" even exist in Golarion? That is, if none of the cultural streams that condemn homosexuality exist, is sexual preference seen as worth classifying beyond a "what's your type" level of preference? I suppose the answer could well vary from culture to culture.
Of course it exists. The word "homosexual" does not only exist because folks needed a word to quantify something bad or sinful.
James (or Jessica, JJ, or anyone else who might care to answer), this question may get a bit arcane, but does the classification "homosexual" even exist in Golarion? That is, if none of the cultural streams that condemn homosexuality exist, is sexual preference seen as worth classifying beyond a "what's your type" level of preference? I suppose the answer could well vary from culture to culture.
The difference is, the term homosexual probably wouldn't connote a political identity like it does in modern society. But that doesn't mean that the term wouldn't still be descriptive of someone's sexual orientation.
I'd like to think, Hitdice, that, at last, in Golarion, someone would finally listen to Gore Vidal, who always insisted that "homosexual" referred to activities, not people.
If I may add though...
Based on the write up of Erastil, wouldn't a Paladin to Ol' Deadeye hold up the holiness of matrimony?
I think so, but that's a James question, probably. :-)
As I said above, specific deities have different traditions/ethical codes/etc. that they may expect their paladins to uphold. But there's nothing about particular views on sex, marriage, orientation, etc. in the basic, vanilla paladin description.
And I recall nothing like that in AD&D 2nd edition Paladin description, nor in Rules Cyclopedia Paladin (but I have seen either book ages ago so I might just forgot that part).
Was anything about marriage stated in early D&D/AD&D? Because I think that Beckett might be mistaking quirky interpretation of Lawful Good (where prohibition against adultery is erroneously equated with prohibition against sex without marriage) for actual paladin code.
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If I may add though...
Based on the write up of Erastil, wouldn't a Paladin to Ol' Deadeye hold up the holiness of matrimony?
First of all, a quick distraction...
Erastil is our lawful good god of the family, among other things. The idea that our most widespread lawful good deity in the setting would think that half of every family (the mothers and daughters) is somehow less important than the other half is ridiculous, and that's an element of the deity's ethos that I'm going to ret-con as soon as I can. You'll note, for example, that his entry in the Inner Sea World Guide doesn't mention anything at all about the idea that women are less important than men.
This element ranks with the idea of "paladins of Asmodeus" as one of the few development mis-steps we've had with our deities.
That all said... to Erastil, matrimony IS a very holy thing. And of ALL our deities, he, as a god of families and community, is the one who likely holds matrimony in the HIGHEST regard. Shelyn might be a close second, but she's more about love than matrimony.
To Erastil's faith, matrimony means, at its simplest, "two people who are married with the primary purpose of raising a family and to work together to support their community." While interpretations of that basic tenet can vary from region to region and church to church, that's the basic. It doesn't matter if those two people are male/female, male/male, female/female, hermaphrodite/male, hermaphrodite/female, or whatever.
As long as they join in that sacred holy union in order to raise a family and promote the overall health of their community... that's what's important to Erastil.
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He's the best candidate, but as long as the couple is supporting the community, why would he care if they are same sex?He might for the sake of producing progeny. But even if he did favor heterosexual marriage on those grounds, who's to say he would oppose homosexual marriage? It might just fall into the realm of somewhat less favored arrangement, but still approved.
It's like being picked up in a bar by a hot redhead or a hot brunette (yes, major hypothetical here - I am a married man). I dig red hair so my preferred arrangement would be to be picked up by the redhead. But I sure wouldn't turn the brunette down.
There's plenty of children in the world who need parents, first of all. A same-sex couple in Erastil's faith who get married would be expected to adopt and care for some of their community's orphans (or perhaps to care for children who are rescued from abusive households).
OR: Remember that there's magic in the world. While we generally don't cover topics concerning pregnancy and childbirth and sex in our rules... all three of those things exist in Golarion, alongside of magic. You can use magic to turn into a dragon or transform a muddy expanse into solid stone or teleport to other planets or to raise the dead. I guarentee you that there are magical methods and spells that allow someone to have a child even when they normally could not, whether the reason is because their spouse/lover is the same gender, or because their spouse/lover is barren, or because they DON'T have a spouse/lover but still want to have a child.
James (or Jessica, JJ, or anyone else who might care to answer), this question may get a bit arcane, but does the classification "homosexual" even exist in Golarion? That is, if none of the cultural streams that condemn homosexuality exist, is sexual preference seen as worth classifying beyond a "what's your type" level of preference? I suppose the answer could well vary from culture to culture.Of course it exists. The word "homosexual" does not only exist because folks needed a word to quantify something bad or sinful.
My point was that "Homosexual" as term, was invented within the last 300 years, and has since divorced same sex attraction from the concept of sin. It's a fairly modern innovation, and I'm sort of picturing Golarion (or at least the more progressive parts) as a place where everyone is assumed to bi from birth without any baggage.
I could see a same-sex couple of Erastil's Faith running an Orphanage or such...
Great now I want to make a country in my upcoming Campaign Setting where everyone who isn't Bi is persecuted... And I suspect those Methods are the same used by Baba Yaga.
My point was that "Homosexual" as term, was invented within the last 300 years, and has since divorced same sex attraction from the concept of sin. It's a fairly modern innovation, and I'm sort of picturing Golarion (or at least the more progressive parts) as a place where everyone is assumed to bi from birth without any baggage.James (or Jessica, JJ, or anyone else who might care to answer), this question may get a bit arcane, but does the classification "homosexual" even exist in Golarion? That is, if none of the cultural streams that condemn homosexuality exist, is sexual preference seen as worth classifying beyond a "what's your type" level of preference? I suppose the answer could well vary from culture to culture.Of course it exists. The word "homosexual" does not only exist because folks needed a word to quantify something bad or sinful.
Edit: Or rather, see Bill Dunn's post immediately following your own; someday I'll learn to read before posting. :P
Not to mention learning which button to hit. This is getting embarrassing...