The Pathfinder Sorcerer vA2 is pretty sad. Its abilities are a bunch of recycled heritage feats that weren't good in the Complete Arcane and aren't good now. But rather than belabor the point endlessly, here's a set of constructive ideas.
The basic concept is that the spontaneous characters that people actually want to play: The Dread Necromancer, the Warmage, the Beguiler, etc. are all closed content. They can't be reprinted, but we should wrap our minds around the fact that those character classes are very popular compared to other expansion classes because they actually are WotC's Sorcerer fix – and they work. The Dread Necromancer is a popular and balanced class, and the Sorcerer should be more like that.
But people also want choice. The Dread Necromancer covers only a single narrow concept for a character. And while it does it very well, many players want to play something else. The Bloodlines are a good piece of flavor for that, but they don't actually make it happen in a meaningful game mechanical fashion. So here's what we are doing: while leaving the spells/day alone, we are throwing the Sorcerer's Spells Known list out the window altogether. Instead, each Sorcerer gets 3 spells known preselected for the levels that they can cast. And at levels 2-20 they can learn a single additional spell of any level they can cast. This is a compromise between the Warmage/Dread Necromancer/Beguiler and the basic Sorcerer. They get many less spells known than the full specialist classes, but they eventually get 2 spells known of every level that they can cast that are selected by the player from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. This gives them better access to splat books and makes the class more customizable and interesting.
The second thing that we are doing is giving each of the power focuses a unique ability that they will actually care about at first level. And we are giving each of the power focuses a list of three special skills that get added to their class skills. This way each Sorcerer Bloodline and secret origin plays differently from the others both as a caster and as a character. Now, if we wanted to keep people in the Sorcerer class and out of PrCs, we'd want to give them additional class features at major decision points (levels 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17). But honestly I don't much care, because I'm perfectly fine with Sorcerers customizing themselves into Prestige Classes at 7th level. That's the way 3e D&D has always worked and I have no problem with it. If anything, the current Pathfinder rubric where you get showered with a couple of bonus feats between levels 1 and 6 and then immediately go off and take a PrC at level 7 seems about how I want things – so I'd even be OK with just cutting off levels 7-20 of “Sorcerer” entirely and formalizing the natural progression into PrCs even more.
So here are what the Power Paths would look like:
Aberrant Power
You get power from beyond the spheres, from another world, another time. Your magic is bizarre and strange, outside of what others of your race have experienced.
Special Power:
Scion of Madness (Ex): You may act normally while dazed or confused. This ability does not function if a dazed status was inflicted upon you by a spell that you cast yourself.
Special Skills: Knowledge (Dungeoneering & Planes), Linguistics, Swim
Cantrips
- Dancing Lights
- Daze
- Resistance
1st Level Spells
- Disguise Self
- Obscuring Mist
- Sleep
2nd Level Spells
- Blur
- Rope Trick
- Touch of Idiocy
3rd Level Spells
- Confusion
- Deep Slumber
- Displacement
4th Level Spells
- Dimension Door
- Evard's Black Tentacles
- Fear
5th Level Spells
- Plane Shift
- Nightmare
- Teleport
6th Level Spells
- Eyebite
- Mass Suggestion
- Shadow Walk
7th Level Spells
- Insanity
- Prismatic Spray
- Teleport Object
8th Level Spells
- Dimensional Lock
- Maze
- Prismatic Wall
9th Level Spells
- Freedom
- Gate
- Prismatic Sphere
Abyssal Might
You are tainted and inspired by demons, or perhaps a specific demon. Your power brings ruin and devastation to the world.
Special Skills: Disguise, Knowledge (Planes & Religion), Survival
Special Power:
Electricity Immunity (Ex): You have immunity to electricity effects and damage.
Cantrips
- [/i]
- [i]
- [/i]
1st Level Spells
- [i]Align Weapon
- Lightning Bolt
- [/i]
2nd Level Spells
- [i]Alter Self
- Darkness
- Web
3rd Level Spells
- Chain Lightning
- Deeper Darkness
- Stinking Cloud
4th Level Spells
- Charm Monster
- Polymorph
- Summon 2d6 Dretches
5th Level Spells
- Feeblemind
- Plane Shift
- True Seeing
6th Level Spells
- Blade Barrier
- Insanity
- Reverse Gravity
7th Level Spells
- Fire Storm
- Greater Teleport
- Power Word: Stun
8th Level Spells
- Dimensional Lock
- Greater Planar Binding
- Power Word: Kill
9th Level Spells
- Energy Drain
- Implosion
- Wish
Arcane Blood
You have natural magic.
Special Skills: Disable Device, Perception, Perform
Special Power:
Arcane Bond (Su): As a Wizard of your level.
Cantrips
- Arcane Mark
- Mage Hand
- Message
1st Level Spells
- Color Spray
- Greater Dispelling
- Greater Magic Weapon
2nd Level Spells
- Arcane Lock
- Hypnotic Pattern
- Rope Trick
3rd Level Spells
- Bestow Curse
- Illusory Script
- Shrink Item
4th Level Spells
- Break Enchantment
- Mordenkainen's Sword
- Rainbow Pattern
5th Level Spells
- Leomund's Secret Chest
- Sending
- Waves of Exhaustion
6th Level Spells
- Contingency
- Disintegrate
- Repulsion
7th Level Spells
- Forcecage
- Phase Door
- Prismatic Spray
8th Level Spells
- Discern Location
- Maze
- Symbol of Insanity
9th Level Spells
- Gate
- Shades
- Storm of Vengeance
Celestial Power
You have the power of the sacred lands. Your magic may have been blessed by Archons or Eladrin, or it may have come to you by much sketchier means such as drinking Celestial Ambrosia or stealing heavenly fire.
Special Skills: Diplomacy, Knowledge (Religion & Planes), Sense Motive
Special Power:
Know Evil (Su): You can see the alignment auras of creatures within 60' of you as if you had been concentrating on an appropriate detect alignment spell or benefited from a divine version of true seeing. This gives you no special ability to see through illusions of any kind however.
Cantrips
- Guidance
- Light
- Resistance
1st Level Spells
- Daylight
- Magic Circle Against Evil
- Sleep
2nd Level Spells
- Glitterdust
- Lesser Restoration
- Searing Light
3rd Level Spells
- Dismissal
- Prayer
- Remove Curse
4th Level Spells
- Restoration
- Spell Resistance
- Sunbeam
5th Level Spells
- Hallow
- Plane Shift
- Sunburst
6th Level Spells
- Banishment
- Heal
- Mass Suggestion
7th Level Spells
- Greater Restoration
- Power Word Stun
- Resurrection
8th Level Spells
- Earthquake
- Mass Heal
- Power Word Blind
9th Level Spells
- Gate
- Implosion
- Mass Hold Monster
Destined Magic
Fate has conspired to give you magic. It probably has some kind of plan for what you are supposed to do with it as well. You can decide for yourself whether you have any choice in the matter.
Special Skills: Escape Artist, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand
Special Power:
A Higher Purpose (Su): Once per day, you may reroll one of your Saving Throws. You must keep the second roll, even if it is lower.
Cantrips
- Bane
- Guidance
- Resistance
1st Level Spells
- Aid
- Augury
- True Sight
2nd Level Spells
- Bestow Curse
- Heroism
- Slow
3rd Level Spells
- Freedom of Movement
- Lesser Geas
- Prayer
4th Level Spells
- Banishment
- Divination
- Greater Heroism
5th Level Spells
- Geas
- Heroes' Feast
- Legend Lore
6th Level Spells
- Find the Path
- Foresight
- Heal
7th Level Spells
- Discern Location
- Limited Wish
- Resurrection
8th Level Spells
- Greater Scrying
- Moment of Prescience
- Protection from Spells
9th Level Spells
- Soul Bind
- Time Stop
- True Resurrection
Draconic Power
You have gained the natural powers of the dragon, whether naturally or through theft. The blood of Tiamat now flows through your veins.
Special Skills: Climb, Jump, Handle Animal
Special Power: Depending upon the type of dragon from whom you draw the most power, select one type of Energy (Fire, Acid, Electricity, or Cold). You are immune to that kind of energy damage.
Cantrips
- Endure Elements
- Speak with Animals
- Ventriloquism
1st Level Spells
- Create Water
- Obscuring Mist
- Water Breathing
2nd Level Spells
- Darkness
- Locate Object
- Wind Wall
3rd Level Spells
- Plant Growth
- Suggestion
- Stinking Cloud
4th Level Spells
- Control Winds
- Hallucinatory Terrain
- Wall of Ice
5th Level Spells
- Freezing Fog (SRD version)
- Insect Plague
- Mirage Arcana
6th Level Spells
- Command Plants
- Find the Path
- Move Earth
7th Level Spells
- Control Weather
- Summon Djinn
- Sunburst
8th Level Spells
- Discern Location
- Foresight
- Whirlwind
9th Level Spells
- Elemental Swarm
- Refuge
- Shapechange
Earth Power
You have the elemental powers of Earth, whether from ancient hanky panky with the Dao or directly from the earth beneath your feet.
Special Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy
Special Power:
Tremor Sense (Su): You have Tremor Sense out to 10'. At 7th level, this extends to 20', and every odd numbered level after that the radius increases by 5 feet.
Cantrips
- Detect Snares and Pits
- Magic Stone
- Mending
1st Level Spells
- Grease
- Longstrider
- Pass Without Trace
2nd Level Spells
- Heat Metal
- Meld into Stone
- Soften Earth and Stone
3rd Level Spells
- Blink
- Shrink Item
- Stone Shape
4th Level Spells
- Stone Tell
- Transmute Rock to Mud
- Transmute Mud to Rock
5th Level Spells
- Move Earth
- Plane Shift
- Wall of Stone
6th Level Spells
- Flesh to Stone
- Stone to Flesh
- Wall of Iron
7th Level Spells
- Greater Teleport
- Limited Wish
- Reverse Gravity
8th Level Spells
- Earthquake
- Iron Body
- Trap the Soul
9th Level Spells
- Elemental Swarm (Earth only)
- Gate
- Wish
Fire Power
You have the powers of Fire, possibly as a blessing from the Efreet.
Special Skills: Knowledge (Nobility & Planes), Linguistics, Sense Motive
Special Power:
Fire Immunity (Ex): You have immunity to fire.
Cantrips
- Burning Hands
- Detect Magic
- Light
1st Level Spells
- Enlarge Person
- Fireball
- Reduce Person
2nd Level Spells
- Daylight
- Invisibility
- Scorching Ray
3rd Level Spells
- Delayed Blast Fireball
- Major Image
- Wall of Fire
4th Level Spells
- Fireshield
- Greater Invisibility
- Minor Creation
5th Level Spells
- Ethereal Jaunt
- Incendiary Cloud
- Planeshift
6th Level Spells
- Greater Scrying
- Permanent Image
- Sunburst
7th Level Spells
- Fire Seeds
- Greater Teleport
- Limited Wish
8th Level Spells
- Binding
- Meteor Swarm
- Trap the Soul
9th Level Spells
- Gate
- Storm of Vengeance
- Wish
Fey Power
You naturally use the magic of the Fey. The real and the unreal blend together at your whim.
Special Skills: Disguise, Handle Animal, Ride
Special Power:
Fairy Trod (Su): You may move unimpeded by vegetation and other natural difficult terrain, and leave no tracks in a natural surrounding. You cannot be perceived or tracked by scent.
Cantrips
- Flare
- Ghost Sound
- Light
1st Level Spells
- Color Spray
- Magic Aura
- [/i]Silent Image
2nd Level Spells
- [i]Invisibility
- Glitterdust
- Whispering Wind
3rd Level Spells
- Displacement
- Major Image
- Shrink Item
4th Level Spells
- Dimension Door
- Greater Invisibility
- Rainbow Pattern
5th Level Spells
- Feeblemind
- Seeming
- Teleport
6th Level Spells
- Flesh to Stone
- Permanent Image
- Sympathy
7th Level Spells
- Greater Teleport
- Irresistible Dance
- Project Image
8th Level Spells
- Demand
- Scintillating Pattern
- Screen
9th Level Spells
- Freedom
- Teleportation Circle
- Weird
Infernal Power
The power of the Hells flows through your arteries and veins. A dark fire of treachery and deceit powers your every waking moment.
Special Skills: Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility & Planes), Sense Motive
Special Power:
See in Darkness (Su): Like a Baatezu, you can see in the absence of light and even in magical darkness as if it was well illuminated with no particular range limitations.
Cantrips
- Flare
- Guidance
- Open/Close
1st Level Spells
- Charm Person
- Daze Monster
- Tongues
2nd Level Spells
- Blindness/Deafness
- Detect Thoughts
- Resist Energy
3rd Level Spells
- Crushing Despair
- Magic Circle against Good or Chaos
- Suggestion
4th Level Spells
- Charm Monster
- Dream
- Fire Shield
5th Level Spells
- Mind Fog
- Plane Shift
- Seeming
6th Level Spells
- Geas
- Greater Arcane Sight
- Sympathy
7th Level Spells
- Antipathy
- Greater Scrying
- Greater Teleport
8th Level Spells
- Demand
- Mass Charm Monster
- Screen
9th Level Spells
- Dominate Monster
- Gate
- Imprisonment
Shadow Power
You channel the power of the plane of shadow, creating strange effects that blur the line between reality and illusion.
Special Skills: Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Special Power:
See in Darkness (Su): You see in shadowy illumination and even full darkness as easily as fully lit areas, even in magically created areas of darkness.
Cantrips
- Dancing Lights
- Ghost Sound
- Prestidigitation
1st Level Spells
- Color Spray
- Mage Armor
- Silent Image
2nd Level Spells
- Darkness
- Minor Image
- Summon Swarm
3rd Level Spells
- Deeper Darkness
- Major Image
- Stinking Cloud
4th Level Spells
- Black Tentacles
- Hallucinatory Terrain
- Shadow Conjuration
5th Level Spells
- Cloud Kill
- Persistent Image
- Shadow Evocation
6th Level Spells
- Acid Fog
- Programmed Image
- Shadow walk
7th Level Spells
- Greater Shadow Conjuration
- Phase Door
- Simulacrum
8th Level Spells
- Mind Blank
- Scintillating Pattern
- Greater Shadow Evocation
9th Level Spells
- Disjunction
- Shades
- Weird
Undead Power
You have the ever living power of the living dead. Like Mum-Ra.
Special Skills: Heal, Knowledge (History & Religion), Stealth
Special Power:
Rebuke Undead (Su): You can channel negative energy like a Cleric of an Evil god of your level.
Cantrips
- Disrupt Undead
- Inflict Minor Wounds
- Mending
1st Level Spells
- Cause Fear
- Inflict Moderate Wounds
- Obscuring Mist
2nd Level Spells
- Desecrate
- False Life
- Ghoul Touch
3rd Level Spells
- Animate Dead
- Gentle Repose
- Vampiric Touch
4th Level Spells
- Death Ward
- Enervation
- Phantasmal Killer
5th Level Spells
- Create Undead
- Finger of Death
- Harm
6th Level Spells
- Circle of Death
- Legend Lore
- Undeath to Death
7th Level Spells
- Control Undead
- Create Greater Undead
- Resurrection
8th Level Spells
- Mass Harm
- Mind Blank
- Symbol of Death
9th Level Spells
- Energy Drain
- True Resurrection
- Wail of the Banshee
Time Power
For every thing there is a purpose, a time, and a season. Your magic has found its time and its season. It is to you to find for it a purpose.
Special Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Survival
Special Power:
Always in Time (Su): Once per day you may reroll an Initiative check. The second roll must be taken even if it is lower.
Cantrips
- Daze
- Mending
- Touch of Fatigue
1st Level Spells
- Erase
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- True Strike
2nd Level Spells
- Shatter
- Slow
- Touch of Idiocy
3rd Level Spells
- Gentle Repose
- Haste
- Sepia Snake Sigil
4th Level Spells
- Dimension Door
- Hold Monster
- Waves of Fatigue
5th Level Spells
- Break Enchantment
- Fabricate
- Permanency
6th Level Spells
- Circle of Death
- Disintegrate
- Move Earth
7th Level Spells
- Delayed Blast Fireball
- Sequester
- Vision
8th Level Spells
- Binding
- Moment of Prescience
- Temporal Stasis
9th Level Spells
- Foresight
- Refuge
- Time Stop
And before anyone chimes in on this point: Yes I did deliberately move some spells from one level to another level for the Sorcerer special lists. This was not done willy nilly and there is a method and purpose to it. In many cases spells are moved because they genuinely appear on different lists at different levels, and as a Sorcerer is pretty much stuck with the spells he has, getting spells at the "have not" rate is pretty sad. For example, plane shift is a 5th level spell for Clerics while it is a 7th level spell for Wizards (a holdover, by the way, from the days when Wizards had more total spell levels than Clerics). That means that a Cleric gets the spell at level 9 while a Wizard gets it at level 13. The Sorcerers who specialize in this sort of thing (most of the ones with extraplanar power sources) get their plane shift at level 10 - which is still behind a Cleric, despite it showing up much earlier than for other characters selecting off the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
The second common reason is that frankly a lot of spells never see play because they are terrible. Or at least, that they are very weak for the levels that they appear at. People generally don't cast sunburst, because doing small amounts of damage and blinding opponents isn't really that important for a 15th level character. These underperforming spells are showing up early for these specialist Sorcerers because it genuinely doesn't matter. Giving a character access to slow at 4th level isn't going to hurt anything, and it will make their magic look very different from that used by other characters of their level.
And finally, many spells are highly level dependent. To the extent that if they showed up at lower character levels it wouldn't matter at all because the spell effects scale down smoothly to whatever level you happen to be. Greater Dispel Magic is a great example. It gives you a 50/50 shot at dispelling spells of your level (which when you think about it, is a pretty bad deal), at every level. So it could seriously show up at any level and it wouldn't matter in the slightest.
-Frank
Instead, each Sorcerer gets 3 spells known preselected for the levels that they can cast. And at levels 2-20 they can learn a single additional spell of any level they can cast. This is a compromise between the Warmage/Dread Necromancer/Beguiler and the basic Sorcerer. They get many less spells known than the full specialist classes, but they eventually get 2 spells known of every level that they can cast that are selected by the player from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. This gives them better access to splat books and makes the class more customizable and interesting.
I very much like.
The idea that sorcerers should cast a little very little bit more and spontaneously but have the drawback of being able to have only an extremely limited number of choices rather than "Well, everything" other classes have is... Really, it just doesn't work.
Having a fixed list of known spells based on a theme (like Beguilers, Dread Necromancers and Warmages have, all of which are way more interesting than the sorcerer) works very well as a starting ground on which the player could then add spells to customize his spell list more.
I agree that the Heritage stuff is nice but in no way balances with the wizards' free spells in addition to their "I can cast potentially everything". Maybe, to really give Sorcerers a bit of an edge, we could have some heritage spell lists draw the occasional spell from outside of the Wiz/Sor list. Maybe.
The only drawback I could see with this solution is having to make several spell lists for each heritage, but well, it's just boring, it's not really difficult. Plus, the heritage stuff we have now can very well be recycled, nobody said it should be done with, just that it's not enough alone.
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Note: The 1st level spell on the Destined Magic spell list is supposed to be True Strike - that actually is a typographical error. Sorry about that.
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I don't actually think that you need more than one theme list for each heritage, but you do need an unfortunately large number of heritages. There should be a Storm Power heritage and probably a Might of the Sea heritage as well. One could easily imagine Chaos Magic and Rigors of Order as heritages. Magic could come from Sphinxes, or the Astral Plane. People could fill their veins with sap or contagion. And so on. I figure that despite the large number of power sources already here, that you could fit in at least that many additional power sources without really stretching the game world beyond that which it is already said to contain.
I foresee this set up as being very good for Pathfinder style adventures, since you could throw in an additional heritage for a group of villains to draw upon and then have an easy-to-use an hematically appropriate group of villains. For the next Pathfinder arc, they could introduce a heritage like Blood of Spiders and have the Drow throw down a bunch of Sorcerers who used it. They'd be spamming web and poison left and right and the players would get a feel for how Drow Magic was different from their own.
-Frank
Excellent job, Frank. I'm a little confused by the Draconic spells, though--how did you choose them?
EDIT: It would be good to have things for ice and electricity, too. I'll try and whip some up when I get home from work.
A pleasant surprise, Frank, I can tell it took some time and effort. The only think I might change is to go ahead and scale the initial powers across levels lest my players think themselves clever and level dip into sorcerer just to gain immunity to electricity or whatever. That sort of thing would likely have me sweating bullets. Thanks though, I hope paizo uses some of this or at least the mechanic.
Excellent job, Frank. I'm a little confused by the Draconic spells, though--how did you choose them?
Those are the spells that Dragons in D&D actually cast inherently for going up in age categories, according to the Monster Manual. There's a few places where I gave out a lower level or higher level version of a spell in order to make it fit in the list, but that's essentially the spellcasting that being a child of Tiamat gets you in 3.5 D&D rules.
EDIT: It would be good to have things for ice and electricity, too. I'll try and whip some up when I get home from work.
Go for it. Remember that there really aren't a lot of [Electricity] spells, so you'll want to have a secondary shtick selected for your Electrical guy. Common choices would be "Storm" (in which the Electrical Sorcerer would also get wind and cloud powers) or "Frankenstein" (in which the Electrical Sorcerer would get various necromantic and divinatory spells).
-Frank
This is great, though some of the powers (like the abyssal heritage one) seem a little out of flavor. Maybe Cold or Poison immunity?
Overall, A++!!
This is great, though some of the powers (like the abyssal heritage one) seem a little out of flavor. Maybe Cold or Poison immunity?
Overall, A++!!
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it.
Abyssal Heritage gives immunity to Electricity because that's a defining power of the Tanar'ri in D&D. They are all immune to Electricity & Poison. Most of them are able to summon others of their kind and have Telepathy out to some range or another. Of those, Electricity Immunity is the most unique, since there are lots of things which are immune to Poison and not all of the Tanar'ri even have a Telepathy range (and Dretch Summoning just went in as a spell).
Similarly, the Baatezu are all immune to Fire and Poison, and they can all See in Darkness. Of those, See in Darkness is by far the most iconic ability, so that's the one they get as Infernal Sorcerers.
-Frank
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Interesting take on the Sorcerer, but I find the immunities for elemental damage provided by some bloodlines a bit overpowered. There's a lot of potential for multiclassing minmaxers that just take one level to gain a hefty bonus.
I'd rather stay with resistances that improve at higher levels, something that encourages players who just stick to the class.
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Change some of the immunities to bonuses to saves and / or energy resistances that scale upwards by level, and this could be the awesomest idea ever.
Nice work, Frank.
Now, if we wanted to keep people in the Sorcerer class and out of PrCs, we'd want to give them additional class features at major decision points (levels 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17). But honestly I don't much care, because I'm perfectly fine with Sorcerers customizing themselves into Prestige Classes at 7th level.
I'd rather the variants have appropriate class features at 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 and 17. I kinda hate PrCs, and like the idea that 20 levels of a core class is a valid choice and not a suboptimal 'gimp' choice.
[I do recognize that in 3.X, it's just crazy suboptimal to go past level 4 Fighter or whatever, but ideally going Fighter 20, or Sorcerer 20, should be just as valid a choice as Druid 20.]
Change some of the immunities to bonuses to saves and / or energy resistances that scale upwards by level, and this could be the awesomest idea ever.
Yes, seconded.
Make it so!
For backwards compatibility reasons, I'd probably give the Arcane Bloodline a flat four choices at each level with no extra spells per level.
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Also, I think an interesting option would be for the ability to trade spells known for Transformational aspects, and have it based on their base Sorcerer level. That gives people a reason to not PrC out and increases the "Bloodline" flavor.
So a demon-based Sorcerer might trade out two of his 1st level spells for Claws, but its not a required choice.
I like the idea of trading spells known for abilities. One rule of thumb might be that any buff spell can also be a permanenet ability for a spell slot of the same level.
So with a third-level spell slot, you can learn Fly, which lets you temporarily grant flight to yourself or your friends, or you can grow wings, which let you fly all the time.
I honestly have no problem with characters taking a level off and picking up immunity to a single energy type. Immunity to a single energy type isn't that powerful unless you can change it day to day.
Immunity to any energy type you want is an 11th level ability, and that's much much more powerful than a fixed immunity. Heck, people have been able to grant themselves immunity to Fire and Cold with transformational magic as low as 3rd level under the basic rules, and I can't recall anyone complaining about that facet of the game. The transformational powers are jacked, but people giving themselves [Fire] and [Cold] subtypes don't even matter.
-Frank
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The thing is, though, warmages, beguilers, and dread necromancers still come out ahead here, because in addition to having a much better spell list, they also get class features throughout their career, including casting in light armor and numerous other benefits suitable to their concept and design. What you've got here offers none of that. It might be a step in the right direction, but it clearly falls short of what the other classes can offer.
This is the same problem I'm having with the current sorcerer/wizard comparison. After 1st level, a Pathfinder wizard gains a total of 13 class features - 10 (Sp) or (Su) abilities and 3 bonus feats. By contrast, a Pathfinder sorcerer gets 7 - 3 feats, 4 powers. Even allowing for the fact that some of the powers scale with level, there's still nothing like the encouragement to stay in the class that the wizard currently enjoys. In particular, the long, long gap between 3rd and 7th levels strongly encourages PrCing out at 5th or 6th level, which seems to run counter to the stated design goal of making each class desirable for levels 1-20.
The other issue I see here is that it might raise some issues of backwards compatibility. Most pregenned sorcerers from 3.5 won't have a spell-known list that can be made to work with this system, which might raise a few eyebrows. This is a change that would work much better going from 3.5 to Pathfinder (i.e., taking 3.5 characters into a Pathfinder adventure) than vice versa, it would seem.
The thing is, though, warmages, beguilers, and dread necromancers still come out ahead here, because in addition to having a much better spell list, they also get class features throughout their career, including casting in light armor and numerous other benefits suitable to their concept and design. What you've got here offers none of that. It might be a step in the right direction, but it clearly falls short of what the other classes can offer.
Actually, if you have lots of splatbooks with good spells available, the warmage, dread necromance and beguiler don't look so good; they get lots of extra spells known, but often those spells known overlap each other in utility (lots of blasting, lots of mind-affecting stuff, etc.).
Hey, this seems very, very nice, but I agree that the initial tone was a little off. It looks very playable,and I would enjoy trying it out around Frank's table.
This is the same problem I'm having with the current sorcerer/wizard comparison. After 1st level, a Pathfinder wizard gains a total of 13 class features - 10 (Sp) or (Su) abilities and 3 bonus feats. By contrast, a Pathfinder sorcerer gets 7 - 3 feats, 4 powers. Even allowing for the fact that some of the powers scale with level, there's still nothing like the encouragement to stay in the class that the wizard currently enjoys. In particular, the long, long gap between 3rd and 7th levels strongly encourages PrCing out at 5th or 6th level, which seems to run counter to the stated design goal of making each class desirable for levels 1-20.
Well, most spellcasting PrCs require third-level spells, so the earliest entry would be Sorcerer 6/MasterCaster1
In that respect, 7th level is the ideal time to grant a new class feature; it just needs to be worth having -- and several of the presented ones are.
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I think it's interesting, but a) it severely limits the character's choices, b) it creates cookie cutter sorcerers ("Oh, he's a Draconic Sorcerer, so he'll have this, this, and this..."), and c) it won't be backwards compatible.
Personally, I like the way Bloodlines work in general right now, but I think they need to be souped up a bit more. I think there should be either a Bloodline Power or Feat at every odd level, plus the grand finale at level 20. Currently, levels 5, 11, and 17 are missing something. It could be as simple as making each of them another Bloodline Feat, since each lists at least 8 feats and you currently only get to choose 4.
Or create a list of Bloodline Spells, and the character can choose 1 at each of those levels as a bonus spell known, and all listed spells may be cast with a spell slot 1 level lower than normal.
I think if they add in those 3 missing levels of powers/feats, add a few more appropriate class skills, the Sorcerer will be pretty good, though I would still prefer a spell point system like the Psion. As a Psion player myself, after experiencing the versatility of spell points, and the ability to augment your spells on the fly, there's just no going back to spell slots.
Bear in mind that many of the Bloodline feats have multiple pre-requisites, which the bloodline mechanic does *not* let you ignore, so you'd be forcing sorcs to spend their character feats to enable their bonus feats. Now that says cookie-cutter.
As for Frank's sorcerer, my understanding is that you'd still get to pick 20 spells of your own choice, which seems like plenty of customization.
I'm really not feeling this fix, its strong and all and helps make Sorcerers viable but for the most part I find just gaining SLA's boring.
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Bear in mind that many of the Bloodline feats have multiple pre-requisites, which the bloodline mechanic does *not* let you ignore, so you'd be forcing sorcs to spend their character feats to enable their bonus feats. Now that says cookie-cutter.
As for Frank's sorcerer, my understanding is that you'd still get to pick 20 spells of your own choice, which seems like plenty of customization.
But then why do such straight-jacketed lists at all? If one of the main complaints about the sorcerer is that they get a limited spell list how does further limiting that list in exchange for flavor improve the situation?
I like the idea of the powers, and the bonus class skills is a great idea, but the super-limited spell selections leave me wondering why? The only benefit i can see is that you would temporarily have more flexibility when you 1st gained access to a spell level. Within a couple of levels, much of that flexibility is gone. Yes you would have more spells to choose from, but you would have less to choose.
overall, I have mixed feelings about this. I would prefer if they expanded the existing bloodlines to include bonus spells known based off of the bloodline at each level and allowed a player to keep more flexibility in their spell list design. I don't hate this design, rather I like it. I just happen to think a more traditional approach would be better.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Some thoughts -
I found the aberrant sorcerer as presented in Alpha 2 to be fairly effective during playtesting at Paizocon. More spell choices don't seem to me to be the path to increasing sorcerer power, I much prefer the power and feat approaching (although mixing in a few spells isn't a terrible idea).
Sunburst is actually one of the most effective 8th level wizard spells. Those who know that use it a lot :) Permanent blindness is fairly hard to counter if you don't have cure blindness available in combat.
In 1st edition, clerics got plane shift at level 9, magic-users at level 14. I think it is a bit off-base to say that plane shift being at 5th and 7th is a relic of the old 7 vs. 9 spell level breakdown for clerics and magic-users.
It is important to remember that casting a wide range of spells is the wizard's defining quality as an arcane caster, and the sorcerer shouldn't step on it too much. Giving sorcerers abilities not tied directly to spellcasting widens the difference in flavor between the two primary arcane casting classes, and I applaud it.
Russ
Sunburst is actually one of the most effective 8th level wizard spells. Those who know that use it a lot :) Permanent blindness is fairly hard to counter if you don't have cure blindness available in combat.
You do know that area effect blindness is available at level 2, right? We call it glitterdust. glitterdust doesn't even check SR.
The only thing sunburst has going for it is its 80' radius, extreme range, and its a save or die for vampires and jellies. Its basically designed to destroy battalions of level 2 Warriors with untyped damage. The same trait makes it terrible for most adventures simply because you can't use it without blinding and/or damaging the party as well.
It checks Reflex instead of Will, so in some circumstances it is better (abberations, oozes, plants, vermin), while in others it is worse (animals, outsiders, dragons, fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, magical beasts, anything with SR).
I already posted this in another sorcerer thread, but I really do think that sorcerers need to remain the "easy" arcane spellcaster, but certainly not to the extant that sorcerers turn into the blanket name for alternate versions of warmage/beguiler/dread necromancer, etc.
I'm really not inclined to want to see the sorcerer to this direction, and it feels a lot different than the sorcerer as presented in 3.5.
I like these lists Frank, and I think I'd use them at my table, but I think that the sorcerer needs some class abilities at higher levels- not just bloodline-related ones, but 'magic-use' related ones.
Perhaps the ability to overchannel in a similar manner to Wilders, or some kind of 'Dragonball Z'-style ability. I often find my players who play sorcerers are more interested in being more unpredictable (and, at times, more powerful [and thus, at times, less powerful]) than wizards, not just 'Cha-based wizards'.
But then why do such straight-jacketed lists at all? If one of the main complaints about the sorcerer is that they get a limited spell list how does further limiting that list in exchange for flavor improve the situation?
I like the idea of the powers, and the bonus class skills is a great idea, but the super-limited spell selections leave me wondering why? The only benefit i can see is that you would temporarily have more flexibility when you 1st gained access to a spell level. Within a couple of levels, much of that flexibility is gone. Yes you would have more spells to choose from, but you would have less to choose.
overall, I have mixed feelings about this. I would prefer if they expanded the existing bloodlines to include bonus spells known based off of the bloodline at each level and allowed a player to keep more flexibility in their spell list design. I don't hate this design, rather I like it. I just happen to think a more traditional approach would be better.
You're confusing two levels of "choice." The problem was never that sorcerers weren't customiable enough, or didn't have enough different spells to choose from. It was that spontaneously casting your choice from a list of 1 spell was stupid.
This way, you get 3 choices from the beginning, and can still customize your caster. Plus, each of frank's bloodlines seems to have more variety & versatility than a Warmage type.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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You do know that area effect blindness is available at level 2, right? We call it glitterdust. glitterdust doesn't even check SR.The only thing sunburst has going for it is its 80' radius, extreme range, and its a save or die for vampires and jellies. Its basically designed to destroy battalions of level 2 Warriors with untyped damage. The same trait makes it terrible for most adventures simply because you can't use it without blinding and/or damaging the party as well.
It checks Reflex instead of Will, so in some circumstances it is better (abberations, oozes, plants, vermin), while in others it is worse (animals, outsiders, dragons, fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, magical beasts, anything with SR).
Glitterdust has a duration, ergo it is dispellable. Remedy available via dispel magic in addition to cure blindness, plus the save DC is 6 lower. Also, a targeted dispel SHOULD strip it from the whole target area (not just a single target, as it is one spell), although mileage will vary on pulling that off. I'd recommend looking more closely at your MM, by the way - Reflex is by far the worst save on dragons. In general, Reflex is lower on high APL critters more often than Will.
I'm sorry that you haven't managed to use it effectively, but me, my group, and many of my fellow players certainly have!
I had something written up, but then the forums ate my post. I was going to re-write it, and then I realized that it probably wouldn't matter.
Glitterdust has a duration, ergo it is dispellable. Remedy available via dispel magic in addition to cure blindness, plus the save DC is 6 lower. Also, a targeted dispel SHOULD strip it from the whole target area (not just a single target, as it is one spell), although mileage will vary on pulling that off. I'd recommend looking more closely at your MM, by the way - Reflex is by far the worst save on dragons. In general, Reflex is lower on high APL critters more often than Will.I'm sorry that you haven't managed to use it effectively, but me, my group, and many of my fellow players certainly have!
Note that lowering a spell's level changes its DC, so a hypothetical sorcerer with Sunburst as a second-level spell wouldn't get that +6 DC.
The undispellability is a very real and significant advantage -- in certain matchups. Lots of monsters and even high-end NPCs won't have access to Dispel Magic, and those who do are still wasting precious actions, meaning the spell has fulfilled its goal of delaying the enemy's counterattack. Glitterdust, meanwhile, negates stealth and invisibility.
Glitterdust has a duration, ergo it is dispellable. Remedy available via dispel magic in addition to cure blindness, plus the save DC is 6 lower. Also, a targeted dispel SHOULD strip it from the whole target area (not just a single target, as it is one spell), although mileage will vary on pulling that off.
I actually don't mind if enemies cast Dispels. Its just one more round where they aren't doing damage or killing guys. Considering the odds of a successful dispel, its easily two or three rounds of wasted actions.
Heck, if they are blinded they can't even do a targeted dispel (can't target spells while blinded unless you can touch the target). At best you'd get an area dispel which is just as likely to strip your own effects
Second, the DC may be six lower but its also a spell thats six spell levels lower. Quicken or Twin glitterdust and you can force two saves which can be statistically just like being 6 higher, but there is also an option that they'll fail both (more fun for their area dispels).
Even Heightening glitterdust to eighth level is just better than sunburst because of the no SR and more reasonable AoE.
I'd recommend looking more closely at your MM, by the way - Reflex is by far the worst save on dragons. In general, Reflex is lower on high APL critters more often than Will.
Its a good save on a high HD monster with high SRs. The chances of affecting it is very small without "no save" and/or "no SR" effects (the kinds you get with 8th level spells).
I'm sorry that you haven't managed to use it effectively, but me, my group, and many of my fellow players certainly have!
I'd love to hear a circumstance where it doesn't blind half the party. With an 80' radius, you'd need to be on a featureless plane just to target anything and not hit the whole party. Forests, caves, indoor settings, and the like basically means that you can't target the spell far enough away to avoid blasting yourself.
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But then why do such straight-jacketed lists at all? If one of the main complaints about the sorcerer is that they get a limited spell list how does further limiting that list in exchange for flavor improve the situation?
I like the idea of the powers, and the bonus class skills is a great idea, but the super-limited spell selections leave me wondering why? The only benefit i can see is that you would temporarily have more flexibility when you 1st gained access to a spell level. Within a couple of levels, much of that flexibility is gone. Yes you would have more spells to choose from, but you would have less to choose.
overall, I have mixed feelings about this. I would prefer if they expanded the existing bloodlines to include bonus spells known based off of the bloodline at each level and allowed a player to keep more flexibility in their spell list design. I don't hate this design, rather I like it. I just happen to think a more traditional approach would be better.
You're confusing two levels of "choice." The problem was never that sorcerers weren't customiable enough, or didn't have enough different spells to choose from. It was that spontaneously casting your choice from a list of 1 spell was stupid.
This way, you get 3 choices from the beginning, and can still customize your caster. Plus, each of frank's bloodlines seems to have more variety & versatility than a Warmage type.
Unfortunately I wasn't clear enough in my prior post. I understand the 1 spell @ each new level is a problem. I just don't see locking down 3 spells at each level and having 2 customizable to be an adequate solution. Right now, a sorcerer ultimately gets at least 3 spells of choice at each level, and up to 5 at some levels. In the long run, the old sorcerer has more choices than Frank's build.
Now, having only 1 spell at a new level is a problem. I'm not sure how large of a problem, as it never fazed me when I played one, but I will concede it kinda sucks. My point before was that a less radical fix of the spell list would be more of my choice here. If each bloodline has a bonus known spell chosen from a list for that bloodline, you would get almost the same effect while maintaining some of the freedom of choice the current sorcerer has.
1. Victor: What do SLAs have to do with anything? There are no SLAs in this sorcerer writeup.
2. I think it is an easy assertion that players will choose a heritage that has spells that they want. While the character has no real choice where he gets his power in most circumstances, the player selects whichever one he wants from the list.
So really when you reach a new spell level, you get 3 bloodline spells preselected for you, and you get to choose one. The next level you choose one more (for a total of 5), and then the next level you start in learning your next spell level. While the 3.5 Sorcerer will eventually choose a 3rd and 4th spell of most of the spell levels they get access to - they won't get those options until they are already worrying about spells a level or two higher (and in the case of spells 6th level and up, will never learn a 4th spell at all).
It seems blatantly obvious that whatever heritage you actually choose will give you at least one spell that you are glad to have at every level. Meaning that you get your 2nd spell choice a level early and your third spell choice 2 levels early. I'm just not feeling the lack of choice complaint, because the different heritages are very different and you actually choose one that works for the character you want to play. If the heritages were handed out as randomly to the player as they are to the character you'd have a point, but otherwise not.
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And yes: the Beguiler is still better than you. That's fine, I don't think anyone should be as good as a Beguiler. More interestingly, the Dread Necromancer has a much bigger spell list than you do, but as a Sorcerer you select many more spells.
-Frank
Are these bonus spells in addition to bloodline powers? Also, I'd probably let a player swap out some of the pre-selected spells if he really wanted to.
2. I think it is an easy assertion that players will choose a heritage that has spells that they want. While the character has no real choice where he gets his power in most circumstances, the player selects whichever one he wants from the list.
The major stumbling block I see is a lack of back-compatibility; it's not just adding something to the existing sorcerer. Here's a concrete example of a sorcerer that I play. His spell list is:
lvl 1: m. missile, enlarge person, prot. from evil, grease, true casting
lvl 2: glitterdust, see invis., electric loop, craft m. tattoo, cloud of bewilderment
lvl 3: haste, displacement, slow, prot. from energy
lvl 4: stoneskin, g. invis., ruin delver's fortune, enervation
lvl 5: teleport, arc of lightning, summon undead V
lvl 6: g. dispel magic, wall of gears
lvl 7: radiant assault
None of your proposed bloodlines are very close; under your system, I'd basically have to rewrite the spell list from scratch. (For the record, he's a spellscale so the "draconic" bloodline would make the most sense.)
Hogarth, your character would have to swap some of their lower level spells for spells that Dragons get in D&D. This would make him more thematically appropriate. At most levels he would trade 2 spells for 3 thematic spells. Then he would flat gain 3 extra thematically appropriate spells at both his highest spell levels, trading out literally nothing at those levels.
He'd be more versatile and effective with the spells that are level appropriate and less scattershot and more thematic with his lower level spells. Yes, that's the entire point of the spell packages for heritages. It's a power up, but it's not completely free money.
-Frank
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Hogarth, your character would have to swap some of their lower level spells for spells that Dragons get in D&D. This would make him more thematically appropriate. At most levels he would trade 2 spells for 3 thematic spells. Then he would flat gain 3 extra thematically appropriate spells at both his highest spell levels, trading out literally nothing at those levels.
He'd be more versatile and effective with the spells that are level appropriate and less scattershot and more thematic with his lower level spells. Yes, that's the entire point of the spell packages for heritages. It's a power up, but it's not completely free money.
-Frank
But here is the rub. Undoubtedly the sorcerer needs something. I think Jason & you both come close. What I like about your build is the skills and the idea of thematic spells. What i dislike is how you apply those spells. The build feels too restrictive to me in spell choice and character design.
Now, what would be more to my liking would be to maintain the bonus powers and skills as you wrote them, and also maintain the standard sorcerer spell progression. BUT at each level, the character may choose a bonus spell known from the lists you have already established.
This design gives the sorcerer more overall spells of choice, maintains the thematic design element you established, as 1 bonus spell know for each sorcerer level would come from your bloodline, and results in marginally more known spells at all levels. Choice would be maintained along with the thematic ideas.
Hogarth, your character would have to swap some of their lower level spells for spells that Dragons get in D&D. This would make him more thematically appropriate. At most levels he would trade 2 spells for 3 thematic spells. Then he would flat gain 3 extra thematically appropriate spells at both his highest spell levels, trading out literally nothing at those levels.
If you think one of Control Weather (meh), Summon Djinn (ugh + not even a spell) or Sunburst (ugh) is as good as Radiant Assault (damage + save or be dazed for 1d6 rounds), you're completely lost. Seriously.
At any rate, the point I was illustrating was that you would be shutting sorcerers out from spells from the Spell Compendium and other splatbooks.
Summon Djinn is in the SRD. It's in the Monster Manual, but it's in the SRD.
In any case, you get those spells in addition to Radiant Assault. You don't lose anything out of your top level spells. You just pick up thematically appropriate versatility. You still get to pick two spells out of the spell compendium from the level below and one or two from this level - and that's as much as a Sorcerer in the basic rules was ever allowed anyway. The only freedom you give up is the extremely difficult to remember late selections of low level spells that come at incredibly random and arbitrary times. Instead, you keep getting new spells of high level and always have spells to select from at every spell level you have.
I am unmoved by your tears.
-Frank
1. Victor: What do SLAs have to do with anything? There are no SLAs in this sorcerer writeup.
-Frank
I meant spells, all your fix did was just give them bonus spells and I find that pretty boring and uninteresting.
I meant spells, all your fix did was just give them bonus spells and I find that pretty boring and uninteresting.1. Victor: What do SLAs have to do with anything? There are no SLAs in this sorcerer writeup.
-Frank
Yes. My only fix for the problem of Sorcerers not having enough spells was to give them more spells. My fix for them not being interesting enough in other ways was to give them more skills and abilities that they could actually use.
Do you have an "interesting" way to get around the fact that Sorcerers don't have enough high level spells? I'm genuinely curious.
Edit: Oh, and Martin, do you have anything constructive to add on this or any other topic? Or do you seriously just wander around flaming people whose tone you don't like?
-Frank
For reasons of backwards compatibility, I think the simplest sorcerer fix is simply a bonus feat progression. Eschew Materials at 1st level and some form of metamagic or heritage feat every 4 or 5 levels.
For reasons of backwards compatibility, I think the simplest sorcerer fix is simply a bonus feat progression. Eschew Materials at 1st level and some form of metamagic or heritage feat every 4 or 5 levels.
That is the simplest bonus to write (though by no means the simplest bonus to actually implement on a character). But do you have any evidence that this would fix the characters in any meaningful way?
Because right now, Metamagic feats and Heritage feats are usually in the "not good" pile. Having more of them won't change your life much.
-Frank
Note that I said some form of metamagic or heritage feat. Although there plenty of decent metamagic feats to choose from (and have more is a good thing for a sorcerer as it increases variation in his casting) I am NOT necessarily refering the heritage feats in any of the Complete Whatever or Races of [insert dumb moniker].
Also, I'm all for placing choice - spell selection or feat selection - squarely in the hands of the player.
Good goals for the sorcerer: variety and simplicity.
Giving selections is granting Variety. It costs Simplicity.
Giving direct abilities is Simple. It costs Variety.
Feat and Spell Selections are easy to write, but not easy to play with. Every time you tell people that they get a bonus feat, they have to look through literally thousands of feats to determine what all that ability could do. That's not simple. Every time you give someone a spell selection, you are having them look through thousands of spells just to determine your options. That's not simple either.
Giving fixed bonus feats ad fixed spells is a massive reduction in character production complexity.
-Frank