Didn't want to reveal it in the title, but a particular aspect of the AoW seems extremely nasty.
Spoiler Alert, turn back before its too late...
last chance...
Do the slow worm potions seem particularly wrong to you as well? My players find potions, and detect magic on them and then either use them or get them identified. A hiding worm would have a 0% chance of being detected by them, making for a dead character in a short amount of time. Also with out knowing where its coming from, they would have no chance of fighting it. The adventure doesn't mention anything unusual about the potions, does that seem fair? Is there a clue later on that lets them realize whats in them before its too late?
I can't recall the exact stats on the slow worms off the top of my head, but I would guess that it hurts just a little when the worms start making a break for your brain. That should give the rest of the party enough time to realise something bad is happening and remedy the situation.
I thought the slow worm potions were particularly insidious and nasty myself. The text mentions a chance for the PC to be aware he/she just swallowed a semi-solid mass; I'm seriously considering raising that possibility quite a bit. I'm sorta imagining the swallowing of the tequila worm - and even allowing for intoxication, I doubt you could swallow it and not notice. I don't want to spawn (no pun intended) a game-slowing element where paranoid PCs check and double check every single substance. The initial drinkers of the potion, though possibly doomed, deserve, IMO, to have a decent chance to be aware that a deadly parasite was just swallowed. As soon as one character realizes he/she swallowed "something" in the potion, then the game is on! If, afterwards, the PCs are foolish enough to continue drinking similar draughts without taking proper precautions then ... well, death awaits!
Do the slow worm potions seem particularly wrong to you as well? My players find potions, and detect magic on them and then either use them or get them identified. A hiding worm would have a 0% chance of being detected by them, making for a dead character in a short amount of time. Also with out knowing where its coming from, they would have no chance of fighting it. The adventure doesn't mention anything unusual about the potions, does that seem fair? Is there a clue later on that lets them realize whats in them before its too late?
/QUOTE]Maybe my players are born skeptics. After the incident with the Lizardfolk who had been infected with the slow worm potion, they would not touch any potions or drinks for the rest of the session, in fact they gave the potions to Filge (whom is working for them under penalty of death) to confirm the potions had been a trap. On a brighter note they really think they captured a dragon egg. I can't wait to spring that little surprise on them.
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May I remind my esteemed collegues of the long forgotten boon to DMs: henchmen.
Have the players sometime soon (and early) in the campaign hire a torch-bearer/heavy lifter/scout that is with the PC party. Besides giving the DM an NPC voice in the party, the NPC provides a wonderful guinea pig for nasty traps to work against. Have a healing potion with a slow worm get consumed by the NPC and have fun acting out their reactions to the worm. In a case like this the DM rolls the die behind the screen and just acts out the scene however they want. If the DM wants the playes to know about the potions being tainted, have the NPC react appropriately regards of the die roll. If the DM wants them to suffer, let the NPC be the visual aid that something isn't right later.
NPCs are a DM's best friend and are often forgotten in the metagaming miasma that is 3.x D&D.
Besides giving the DM an NPC voice in the party, the NPC provides a wonderful guinea pig for nasty traps to work against.
I don't know. Any self-respecting good-aligned party would certainly take issue with hiring other (not to mention weaker) people to risk grave danger on their behalf. And the storyteller in me that wants to have the PCs be at the center of the action balks at the notion of having *NPCs* weather the storms that the PCs are intended to survive.
Besides giving the DM an NPC voice in the party, the NPC provides a wonderful guinea pig for nasty traps to work against.I don't know. Any self-respecting good-aligned party would certainly take issue with hiring other (not to mention weaker) people to risk grave danger on their behalf. And the storyteller in me that wants to have the PCs be at the center of the action balks at the notion of having *NPCs* weather the storms that the PCs are intended to survive.
Not to mention the fact that, regardless of the party's alignment, the henchman in question might decide that it's just not a good idea for him to drink it. Miasma or no, I've never seen any good campaign that had henchmen played as mindless boobs, unless they were fanatic devotees, a la Thulsa Doom's cliff-jumping babe in "Conan The Barbarian."
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I think my suggestion has been taken out of my intended context. NPCs in my games are valid members of the PC's party to the point that the players are very fond of them, and thus very protective of them. The PCs actions are the epitome of "good" that has been referred to and the NPCs are not "mindless boobs". Now the DM on the otherhand... ::wink:: I think the "Nodwick" mentality has ruined the concept of henchmen forever.
My suggestion is to use the NPCs for dramatic effect when the DM feels that the PCs may blunder unnecessarily through a vicious situation. This topic was based on how to deal with a potentially lethal situation that the PCs would have little evidence to avoid. Others have given great suggestions to help PCs to detect the worm (I agree with the tequila analogy). My reminder of having the DM use an NPC to "take one for the team" is just a suggestion as well. It really depends on the DM's view of what NPCs are: vivid elements to the story or "mindless boobs".
Having a valued companion fall to the machinations of villains only fuels the PCs to further heights of bravery to assure the same fate doesn't befall others.
Maybe my players are born skeptics. After the incident with the Lizardfolk who had been infected with the slow worm potion, they would not touch any potions or drinks for the rest of the session, in fact they gave the potions to Filge (whom is working for them under penalty of death) to confirm the potions had been a trap. On a brighter note they really think they captured a dragon egg. I can't wait to spring that little surprise on them.
But how did they know that the lizardfolk died from a slow worm? Or even correctly identified what they saw happening? My players will most likely see a lizard folk has exploded, then decide they are all tainted or worse and bash away at the rest of them. The connection between cause and effect seems unclear at best. Theres no real warning label for the effect unless the DM makes one himself.
My reminder of having the DM use an NPC to "take one for the team" is just a suggestion as well. It really depends on the DM's view of what NPCs are: vivid elements to the story or "mindless boobs".
Having a valued companion fall to the machinations of villains only fuels the PCs to further heights of bravery to assure the same fate doesn't befall others.
Very good points indeed... sorry for not reading more deeply into what you wrote.
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Very good points indeed... sorry for not reading more deeply into what you wrote.
It's all good, Madwabbit. I was wondering where the basis of the immediate replies to my suggestion were coming from until I skewed my perspective. Once I thought of henchmen = canon-fodder I immediately understood the responses.
It's the responsibility of the DM to present vivid NPCs so as to not cheapen their impact in the game. Granted, it's hard to not have run of the mill barkeeps and city guards when their input to the game is only line or two, but any NPC that has meaningful dialog should be presented in a memorable fashion just so the players (DM too!) can remember them at a later time.
I'm starting Whispering Cairn this evening as a matter of fact (ran the Teenaged Drinking Can Kill prologue I plagerized from these boards to get the PCs warmed up). I have the first NPC, a runaway youth, set in the abandoned Mining Office. He/she/it will hopefully pluck at the morals of the PCs enough that they'll offer simple jobs of watching the donkey/equipment and the like. With time the NPC will develop beyond a Com1 NPC and become more meaningful to the players. If I need to use the NPC for dramatic effect, I will do so (injury/mental anguish/betrayal) only to further the plot.
This topic only confirms my concern about the slow worms impact. I don't want to be too heavy-handed with clues for the PCs to protect them but I want them to realize what "could" have happened to one of them. That's the point of using NPCs if they are established already.
I'd love to hear how other DMs have had the slow worm element play out in their games.
Hi
I know this is an old thread but i have a solution to the drinking of the nasty potion dilemma.
Dm's could give the pc who drank the potion a constitution save and if the character suceeds then he vomits up the slow worm.
As i under stand Dming practices its always fair to give characters who are about to die a save chance.
Phil.T
Hi
I know this is an old thread but i have a solution to the drinking of the nasty potion dilemma.Dm's could give the pc who drank the potion a constitution save and if the character suceeds then he vomits up the slow worm.
also there is a Spot check to notice the worm in the glass
once the worm has been ingested then perhaps a paladins cure disease ability could rid the pc of the infection
allow a cure serious wounds spell or potion to kill the worm, neutralize poison etc
allow knowledge creature checks to help identify solutions
allow heal check to draw out the infection
fudge every other fortitude roll during incubation to draw out the time for a solution.
create an antidote for the effects and place it in the adventure
when the character is overcome allow him to take a zombie template and retain his alignment and mental facualties the constant struggle to fight madness would be awesome to roleplay and the character would be truly different.
if the character does die there is always ghostwalk source book.
allow the pc to take a ghost template from there that way he would be on equal terms with alastor. Heh HehAs i under stand Dming practices its always fair to give characters who are about to die a save chance.
Phil.T
Phil T,
Not sure how much I agree with your other suggestions but I liked your constitution check/success means vomit idea (good imagery is always welcome in my game) and knowledge creature check to remember possible solutions idea.
I'm pretty strict and harsh with the vast majority of my DMing practices (medieval magic life is no walk in the park) but have been known to have flashes of compassion for my players and this whole "slow worm potion"/horrible death of the ignorant is one of them.
And of course, vomiting means nausea. Not such a big deal in the middle of a town (other than making a scene), but since these are cure potions, they'll most likely be in combat- not a good place to start puking your guts out. Also, you may allow a spot check after the vomiting to notice the worm writhing in its death throes. Then the party will begin riffling through their inventory immediately after battle, trying to remember which potions came from where (not that they automatically know the blighted ones came from the lizardfolk cave- "That cleric we bought these from is trying to kill us!"). I'm looking forward to this, now.
Would vomiting in combat provoke an AOO?
I'm definitely going to use the Con save/vomit thing if my PCs don't figure it out :D Nice one.
Well, both of my parties managed to acquire Filge's syringe and they're using it to heal the party in combat. I figure that once they hit this section of the module, they'll use one of the potions and put it in a syringe. When the worm doesn't go through the syringe, they're going to figure out something's up.
Squid
As a reply to the first post, I thought this was a bit harsh too.
However the nature of the worm might give the characters some clues. I would think that the worms themselves are necromantic, evil, undead-ish entities given the source of their existance. Detect magic could show a faint necromantic aura next to the aura of the poition itself, detect undead/evil might, faintly, register their presence ("I sence undead, and... they are located... IN YOUR BACKPACK!!!!). Also the profession:alchemy skill might detect something unusual.
The scrupulus DM's among us could try to give the players an extra hint in the form of an extra question akin to "how are you going to open the door".
Those players that indiscriminately quaff every potion they find will get what they deserve.
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However the nature of the worm might give the characters some clues. I would think that the worms themselves are necromantic, evil, undead-ish entities given the source of their existance. Detect magic could show a faint necromantic aura next to the aura of the poition itself, detect undead/evil might, faintly, register their presence ("I sence undead, and... they are located... IN YOUR BACKPACK!!!!).
Well, you'd think but...
The green worm that infest each spawn of Kyuss are not themselves undead. Rather, they are a strange symbiotic form of vermin that subsists upon the decaying flesh of the spawn.
An anti-vermin spell may do the trick though.
The Fortitude save that allows the PC to vomit up the worm is a nice "out" for the PCs but it sells short the big plan of the villains. I doubt that the villains would invest the time and energy to develop a slow worm that can survive in fluids that are not potions of gentle repose and not perfect the mode of insertion. I imagine the Cult of Kyuss back at the Wormcrawl Fissure experimenting with a host of orcish "lab rats". The slow worms that induce vomiting everytime they are consumed are thrown out for the worm prototypes that only induce vomiting 5% of the time. You have to figure that the worms have been selectively "bred" to be small and unnoticeable. I think the previous tequilla worm analogy is ideal. It's not like the PCs are experiencing a game table prank of someone shoving a gummy worm in your can of Dew...
Just because the villains' plans have caught the PCs off guard and ignorant doesn't mean we, as DMs, have to treat the villains' plans as logic-poor and ignorant.
So make sure the trusted torch bearer drinks the first laced potion, give them that 5% luck opportunity to immediately vomit, then a Fort save to realize something solid just went down the hatch and watch the panic spread like fire through dry grass.
So make sure the trusted torch bearer drinks the first laced potion, give them that 5% luck opportunity to immediately vomit, then a Fort save to realize something solid just went down the hatch and watch the panic spread like fire through dry grass.
Thats fair....evil...but fair....
I like it. heh hehHowever giving the players a chance for survival isn't IMO detracting from the vilans diabolical plan. Once the potion has left the villans hands its out of his control. Things can and should go wrong for the villan, afterall he is the villan and the heros are well ....hero's, they deserve a break.
now if an NPC drank the potion then the villan would definately triumph and the NPC would meet a horrible death with no saves....but only to set the scence villify the villan or create athmosphere.....those poor Red Shirts....
Im not soft on my players either but character deaths and party deaths usually happen because they did something silly, and not because they drank a potion that smelled and tasted and looked like a cure potion.
Phil.T
Saern,
Too funny! I'm looking forward to the great role-playing opportunities too.
Phil T,
I agree that giving the PCs a chance is not metagaming to foil the villians' plots. And, as I've maintained all along (and the original post made clear) it isn't exactly fair to "punish"/kill a PC for trusting an innocuous potion that isn't remarkable or different than any dozen benign ones he's encountered before. That's not fun gameplay, more like cruelty to characters!
Maybe they have to FAIL the Fort save to spew the worm...
Mage: "BLLURRRCH!"
Fighter: "Aw, did the teensy-weensy wizard get a tummy-ache? Here, let me show you how a MAN does it! (Gulp!) Ahhhh...mighty tasty, Slim!"
Mage: "What's this little thing here...?"
Ok, I'd just like to check something here--you guys DO all realize that the slow worm functions like a disease, only draining 1d4 of con per day, right? That gives the characters a LOT of time to puzzle something out, and even if they don't know the exact cause, when someone's losing 1d4 Con per day, the first response any sensible player's going to have is to try to get that nasty disease cured or the curse removed, both of which can benefit the unfortunate victim.
Thus, why bother with vomiting rules or anything like that? Simply talk about how skinny the poor guy is getting from day to day, how pale, the nasty texture the skin is getting, etc., and let the folks problem solve.
Spoiler Alert, turn back before its too late...
last chance...
Do the slow worm potions seem particularly wrong to you as well? My players find potions, and detect magic on them and then either use them or get them identified. A hiding worm would have a 0% chance of being detected by them, making for a dead character in a short amount of time. Also with out knowing where its coming from, they would have no chance of fighting it. The adventure doesn't mention anything unusual about the potions, does that seem fair? Is there a clue later on that lets them realize whats in them before its too late?
Ok, I'd just like to check something here--you guys DO all realize that the slow worm functions like a disease, only draining 1d4 of con per day, right? That gives the characters a LOT of time to puzzle something out, and even if they don't know the exact cause, when someone's losing 1d4 Con per day, the first response any sensible player's going to have is to try to get that nasty disease cured or the curse removed, both of which can benefit the unfortunate victim.
Thus, why bother with vomiting rules or anything like that? Simply talk about how skinny the poor guy is getting from day to day, how pale, the nasty texture the skin is getting, etc., and let the folks problem solve.
Exactly. Here's what I envision happening:
DM (to unwitting PC the next morning): Roll a Fortitude save.
PC: 14.
DM: You feel nauseous this morning. Looking at your skin, it seems tighter than normal and a little pale. It feels like something unnatural and unsettling rests in your stomach and it won't go away. It may be some nasty food poisoning, but something tells you it is more serious than that. Lose 3 points of Con.
PC: Cleric!!!
Cleric: What is it now? Let me prepare my spells before getting your knickers in a knot!
PC: Make sure remove disease is one of those spells!
Cleric: Awww...but I wanted contagion. So much fun!
PC: And hurry up! I'm turning into a cleric of Wee Jas over here!
(Cleric prepares and casts remove disease on afflicted PC).
Hmmm...wonder where that came from. Oh well. Carry on.
(Repeat as PCs consume other infected potions).
I had something interesting happen with the SWPs. The paladin in the group ended up drinking one of the infected potions but ended up dying later in the day. What happens?
Didn't want to reveal it in the title, but a particular aspect of the AoW seems extremely nasty.
Spoiler Alert, turn back before its too late...
last chance...
Do the slow worm potions seem particularly wrong to you as well? My players find potions, and detect magic on them and then either use them or get them identified. A hiding worm would have a 0% chance of being detected by them, making for a dead character in a short amount of time. Also with out knowing where its coming from, they would have no chance of fighting it. The adventure doesn't mention anything unusual about the potions, does that seem fair? Is there a clue later on that lets them realize whats in them before its too late?
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I had something interesting happen with the SWPs. The paladin in the group ended up drinking one of the infected potions but ended up dying later in the day. What happens?
Meaning, the slow worm wasn't responsible for the character's death? Instead, the paladin has died from damage before the worm could do its deed?
Without a living host, the worm should perish. Perhaps it would erupt from the character's body in a last attempt to reach another living host and clue in the other PCs that something is not "right".
Without a living host, the worm should perish. Perhaps it would erupt from the character's body in a last attempt to reach another living host and clue in the other PCs that something is not "right".
I agree on all counts. If the other characters are near the paladin's corpse when the worm emerges they'll notice the clue. "Eww, gross! What is that?!". If not, oh well. The worm will die on its own.
After a particularly painful encounter, the monkish character relished (with delight!) the cool, tasty, invigorating, effervescant cure light wounds potion that had been acquired "somewhere" earlier. The worm went down easily ... but the DM allowed a "spot" check for the character to notice that "something" small and solid went down as well. That was all for the moment. No ill effects ... until the next morning, when the monkish one felt somewhat off balance, overly tired, and weak (loss of 4 con points). And there was a little "rumbly in the tummy" effect going on. Again, not much other than that. However, being a very paranoid group, the monkish one begged the party cleric for a cure disease spell. "Sorry, not today", was the answer. (We're not exactly all that chummy as a party, and there is somewhat of a "rivalry" going on between the LE monkish one and the CG cleric!) So, at some point the worm began its migration toward the brain ... the monkish one was in a panic and described the situation to the party ... something terrible, and painful, was happening! So, the cleric, not too fond of the monkish one, took out his wickedly sharp dagger, and began "delicately" digging the worm out. It definitely hurt (and quite a bit of damage was sustained by the monkish one), but the creature was extracted, observed, and dispatched. Afterward, the cleric did a few cure light wounds spells on the monkish one, bringing her back to full vim and vigor. The cleric was just "returning the favor" to the monkish one, who had gleefully set the cleric on fire in an earlier adventure ... reputedly to help eliminate some nasty creepy-crawly thing that was attached to the cleric. Such is the way of the world!
The first time one of my players drank one of these, I had them roll a spot check, then I told them they felt something large and slimey in their mouth, about to slide down their throat (the actual spot roll was irrelevant in my case, because I wanted them to find out). If you're feeling evil, you can do this after two of three others have already drank one... forcing them to seek out a few 'remove disease' spells. The player, of course, responded by spitting it out, etc.
They also witnessed the worms escaping from a fallen lizardman. Once they got suspicious and started checking every potion, they noticed that all the lizardfolk potions were infected, and the Shaman told them that the potions were gifts from the dragon, etc.
You can either use it to kill everyone, or use it as a plot device to advance the campaign.
Well, when I ran this, I inadvertently tipped my hand by specifically describing the potions as coming in opaque rather than clear vials--since CLW is a clear potion in my campaign, this was necessary to make hiding a worm a logical possibility. The act of describing something that would otherwise be just "a vial" set off alarm bells, and the potions were put away until they could be tested in Allustan's alchemy lab, at which point a nat 20 craft (alchemy) check revealed a squirmy worm in the strainer. The whole story was quickly put together after that--but I used it to advance the plot, as the party was able to observe physical differences between these worms and the one in the jar that Smenk nicked from the Faceless One, and this increased their sense that the worms were important--part of a plot and not just evidence of some strange monsters running around. My log has the details.
Anyway, as someone above pointed out, it's not an instant death kind of thing, so it's not overly harsh, I feel. If I run it again, I'm going to provide specific descriptions of every potion vial (or at least half of them) that appears in the game up to that point, just to set up the slow worms better.
Poor Nodwick. Not only does he have to carry your loot--you make him play guinea pig with your potions too! ;)
I suppose that my 2 cents could be chipped in here.
Just last night, this evil plan came to fruition. We're most of the way through HoHR, and the characters have been carrying slow worm potions for 3 months or so real time. Both the half-orc barbarian and the dwarven rogue happened to finally drink tainted potions in the fight with Telakin. I rolled their spot checks for them and they both rolled under a 10. In the morning the barb made his fort save, but the dwarf failed losing a mere 1 point of con damage.
"Cleric!!!" came the cry and the dwarf ultimately heaved up a squirming little green worm. The players were horrified. None of them have any idea whatsoever where the damned thing came from. The barbarian still has his lurking in his belly, waiting for a bad fort save to come along, which is assuredly will.
It didn't seem harsh at all to me. Of course, there's a cleric in the party so Remove Disease is a day away at most. But ultimately there's no chance that a party member will die from this. It just adds flavor and creepiness to the whole thing. IMHO.