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Drop Dead Studios

The Luchador (PFRPG) PDF

4.70/5 (based on 3 ratings)
DDSLUCHADORE

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Presented by Drop Dead Studios, the Luchador is a new 20-level Monk/Vigilante hybrid class for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

These masters of the ring traverse the world in search of greater and greater foes to battle. Like the vigilante, the luchador lives a double-life: one as an unassuming citizen, and one as a great hero of the people. Unlike the vigilante, who hides their identity to protect their loved ones from reprisals, the luchador wears a mask to inspire those around him with his inhuman feats of strength, allowing him to move unassumingly around society while his masked identity’s fame spreads abroad.

The luchador is a master of grappling, unarmed combat, and manipulating their enemies around the battlefield before lining up the finishing blow. Through their stable talents, a luchador can become an expert at any of three different styles of combat, breaking down their enemy’s strength before knocking it unconscious with their submission specialization. Unlike other adventurers, the luchador excels at defeating their enemies in spectacular fashion while keeping the villain alive—for how can the fallen return for the rematch of the century if they are not alive to seek one?

This book not only details the luchador class, but also includes new feats, magic items, favored class bonuses, and racial information to help both players and GMs make the most of this new class, as well as better integrate them into a campaign.

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LOS RUDOS LOS RUDOS LOS RUUUUDOOOOOS!

5/5 —

The Luchador is a classbook by Drop Dead Studios, penned by the great designer Michael Sayre. It is a hybrid class mixing the monk and the vigilante. I must confess I had great expectations about this book, being a proud Mexican and an ex-big fan of Lucha Libre (it has lost some of its charm), so how does this book fare against my spoiled-brat hopes? Lessee!

What’s inside?
19 pages of content for 5 bucks (great rate IMHO), which include:

-The Luchador hybrid base class: Mixing the thematic parts of both classes, the author creates a wrestling specialist that wouldn’t be possible in core rules. They have a similar chassis, having d8 HD plus medium BAB, good Fortitude and Reflex saves, 6 skill points with an ample enough list for the Luchador to be many things, especially the face of the group; the “weakness” of the class is the weapon/armor proficiency, getting nothing beyond simple weapons proficiency (not that it matters if you can wrestle with a chimera like in the awesome cover). From the Monk, the Luchador inherits improved unarmed strike and better unarmed damage that goes up with level, Charisma-based AC bonus, plus some others, like a ki pool, opened by the class’ talents. From the Vigilante, the Luchador gets a variant of dual identity that is less superhero-esque (not that of a big deal if someone knows your real identity), plus Social and Stable talents.

As new toys, the luchador gets Skillful Combatant, which in a Monk-y fashion treats the luchador as a full BAB class for CMB and CMD. They also get a kind of mini-archetype, the Stable, which gives the Luchador a real-world theme and access to some exclusive talents, the stables being Freestyle (the most Lucha-esque of the bunch), Oil Wrestling (from Turkish tradition) and Sumo (big-man Japanese wrestling). Having watched all three, I would say that the author is stretching the concept of a Luchador to the limit, but OK. Corazon (Spanish for “heart”), is another ability that is unique to the Luchador, and is kind of a status. While not part of Lucha Libre, this ability sounds a lot like Face from Kung Fu movies and can be poached for other classes like Monks, Samurai, and Yakuza (any really). Not having Corazon makes a lot of the class talents work in a limited fashion. Submission Specialist is another new toy, which increases grappling damage but only when going nonlethal. Aerial Takedown improves the Luchador’s jumps and adds the option to grapple at the end of a charge, even flying creatures! Finally, as a capstone the Luchador gets DR 10/-, Fast Healing 1, and doesn’t suffer from physical penalties when aging. Also, they get access to unique Social and Stable talents, the latter having unique tricks for Free Stylers, Oil Wrestlers and Sumotoris. Also, each flavor of Luchador gets access to one talent that prevents victims of escaping your grapple via teleportation, which is a really nice adition to the Luchador’s arsenal.

-8 Luchador Archetypes: Blood Breakers forget about doing nonlethal damage in exchange for getting mutagens (Bane anyone?). Dancing Dervishes are powerful dance fighters who get exclusive toys… based on a skill check (we all know you can increase these checks through the roof); cool archetype but should have gotten a special caveat preventing skill-enhancements. Earthbound are slow wrestlers who exchange the high-flying flair of Lucha for a more stoic, immobable style, getting the Staltwart Defense ability of, well, Staltwart Defenders, and get some other modifications including a more thematically-appropriate capstone. Ki Strikers are high-fantasy warriors who get Elemental Fist for free and some blasty powers in exchange for raw damage and some stable talents, very fighting game-y (thumbs up). Lichadors… get closer to undead, losing Stable to get some unliving resistances; nstead of increasing their nonlethal damage, their touch channels positive energy (which can’t heal) and is treated as ghost touch, so you can wrestle with zombies or even ghosts! They also get access to some very dark and flavorful talents and as a capstone they become Liches! An excellent archetype in all but name. Masked Beasts borrow the Animal Focus ability of hunters in a limited fashion, and also battle with savage natural attacks instead of the more martial art-sy of other Luchadors, and can even wild-shape like druids! Masked Saint was a must, and while they lose the increased nonlethal damage, they get access to Lay on Hands and some mercies like a Paladin, plus the weapon bond ability with their unarmed strike, culminating with a more thematic capstone. Finally, Rudos (Lucha Libre’s heels) are heartless ruffians, meaning no Corazon, who instead of a Stable have a lackey that helps them in their fights, treated as a cohort from a class that can fight unarmed (mostly Monks, Brawlers and other Luchadors). The author shows his research, since in Lucha Libre, Rudos can (and Dios do they do) enter the ring and help their comrades, while Tecnicos (the good guys) can’t.

-21 Favored Class Bonus: In the author’s fashion, instead of a boring list of bonuses, each of the 21 (!) races get a short but flavorful paragraph describing the Luchador’s role in their community.

-15 Feats: This section includes 13 combat feats which open new options in combat, some of which can be built upon by the Luchador’s talents feats. Interestingly, some use an attack of opportunity as part of the cost of doing a maneuver. I particularly liked the Tag Team feat, being something you see in team wrestling all the time. The two non-combat feats are Masked Intentions, which gives a generous bonus to both Bluff and Sense Motive for characters who qualify, and Dragon Tatoos, which basically make you (and your unarmed strikes) enchantable. Another good thing of most feats is that they CAN be used by other characters, Monks in particular, and that is always a good thing.

-5 normal equipment: two Luchador masks which basically feel like normal and masterwork, 2 folding weapons common in pro-wrestling (not so much in Lucha), and wrestling oil, all complementing part of the Luchador arsenal.

-7 magical items: 4 masks, one for each side of Lucha Libre (Rudo and Tecnico), and two based on real-life legendary Luchadors Blue Demon and El Santo, Luchador Boots and a Vial of Renewing Oil

Of Note: The idea of merging the Monk and the Vigilante in one class is nutty, but pulling it out in a flavourful and technical way is IMHO an epic feat! Even while having grown surrounded by Lucha movies and shows, it never occurred to me to mix RPGs with Lucha (except that one time we played Marvel Super Heroes card game and I played El Santo).

Anything wrong?: There is enough substance in Lucha Libre that adding Sumo or Oil Wrestling was not necessary, but is not a bad thing. But I would have preferred little people wrestling, Exoticos (flamboyant gay gay wrestlers), an “evil” wrestling villian archetype (heels/rudos like Psicosis or El Satanico), and maybe a monster hunter archetype (having seen many El Santo vs what-have-you, this one is a must), and maybe a referee bard :D (like the mythic and polemic El Tirantes, who even has his son, El Tirantes Jr., as a fellow referee). I was also expecting some kind of interaction with performance feats, but I think I can do that on my own (maybe just treat unarmed strikes and unarmed combat maneuvers be considered performance weapon, thus granting a +2 to the Performance Combat check and… voilá!).

What I want: As I mentioned above, an Exotico archetype, a little people (small race) archetype, and maybe an “evil” version of the Masked Saint. Maybe some unique masks that give specific abilities that are worth adventuring for (El Santo was not always El Santo, and in one movie, he gives his “powers” to his son by giving him his mask!), maybe a bloodline-like archetype for all these Jr. and the second/the third wrestlers. A “personal move” rule for iconic, unique locks, holds, throws and all that. And maybe a recommended bibliography/filmography for people who want to know more about Lucha or just get inspiration sources for Lucha adventures.

What cool things did this inspire?: The masks I mentioned before, and some Luchador achievement feats that give you a title (like El/La Something) for achieving something awesome. I remember El Canek, a big (for Mexico’s standards) Mexican wrestler who did the epic feat of lifting Andre the Giant, something not even WWE wrestlers did! He still wrestled beyond his 60’s! I’m also adding the Luchador to the classes in my fantasy modern Mexico campaign.

Do I recommend it?: If you are reading this review it is because you are already intrigued by the idea of having Luchadors in an RPG. In that case, I wholeheartedly recommend it! If you are here with the idea of adding more flair to the grappling rules, you CAN poach a lot of things from this book, maybe doing a Vigilante sub-specialty or Monk archetype that gives you access to Luchador tricks, or just adding the mystique of the Lucha Mask to your characters. If you like Lucha, this is a five star-shaped world champ belts!

Trivia: There is so much crazy myths surrounding Lucha, like the one that wrestlers use their masks all the time and even marry using them and even their spouses don’t know their secret identities! (though I was married by a wrestler/priest, Fray Tormenta, talk about multiclassing in real life LOL) I often ROFL about that, especially when the person telling me is not Mexican and truly believes those. To them, I share the TRUE gems of Lucha. Like El Vampiro (Velasques?), who before every Lucha went to a mine, collected living bats under his cape, and released them when he entered the ring and the spectators were HORRIFIED (in retrospect, poor bats but oh boy), or a crazy wrestler that started an EFFIN FIRE that consumed the whole Arena! (no one was hurt IIRC). Or in the Lucha movies, where two Luchadors were in brightly colored suits, with capes and masks and all that, and then got on a PINK Ferrari… the one riding shotgun said “slow down, we don’t want unnecessary attention” (I always smile with that scene). THOSE are some of the crazy things that inspire the true flair and flavor of Lucha Libre!

An Endzeitgeist.com review

5/5 —

This base-class clocks in at 24 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page ToC, 1 page SRD, 1 page back cover, leaving us with 19 pages of content, so let's take a look!

The luchador class, chassis-wise, receives d8 HD, 6 + Int skills per level, 3/4 BAB-progression, good Fort- and Ref-saves, proficiency with simple weapons and gains basically a monk's unarmored AC-bonus progression, but uses Charisma as governing attribute for it. Similarly unarmed damage increases to 2d10 at 20th level...and yes, Small luchador-damage-table included. First level nets the luchador the vigilante's double identity, with his masked persona being his larger than life luchador personality and thus, discovering his social identity is usually not as big a problem. He also treats his luchador levels as both vigilante and monk levels for the purpose of feat/talent/etc.-qualifications and receives Improved Grapple as a 1st level bonus feat. The luchador also uses his class level instead of his BAB to calculate his CMB and CMD and is treated as having at least Intelligence 13 for the purpose of combat feat prerequisites.

Similarly, at first level, the luchador chooses one of three stables: Freestyle luchadors gain +1 to Acrobatics and Intimidate checks made to demoralize, +1 per every 5 class levels gained, Oil Wrestlers may spend 1 minute preparing themselves to gain +1 to CMD vs. grapple, bull rush, drag, reposition, increasing similarly Disguise faster also decreases the oil application time, which is a nice addition here. Finally, the sumo stable weigh twice as much and may target adversaries of +1 size larger than they usually could with combat maneuvers, with subsequent increases in weight and size categories you can affect. Yep, you could potentially suplex dragons or even the tarrasque. Come on, that is one awesome visual!

The luchador also has a form of social/spiritual clout called Corazon, which is gained at 2nd level; for as long as they have one, they add +1/2 class levels to feint DCs and Intimidate to demoralize DCs. Corazon is lost upon being unmasked, which requires being pinned or the like. Corazon is regained by defeating an opponent of a CR greater or equal than his own sans assistance...or defeat a foe who has previously unmasked him. Starting at 2nd level, they also inflict + Charisma modifier damage whenever they inflict nonlethal damage via unarmed strikes, grapples, etc., +1d6 at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, rewarding heroic, good behavior. Like it!

Starting at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, the luchador may select a social talent, with 6 new ones added to the array provided by the vigilante. Some of these have the corazon-descriptor, decreasing their efficiency when the luchador has no corazon left: Ancestral Guidance improves the Knowledge (nobility, hostory and religion)-checks. Mchaismo/Marianismo lets the luchador take 20 on a non-UMD Cha-based check once per day, +1/day at 7th and 15th level (take 15 sans corazon). Shamanic Inheritor lets him 1/week call a shaman of his class level to perform a spell for him (cool) and at 12th level, another talent even may provide a means to be raised from the dead 1/month by such an entity. Stable Master nets you a neat stable income (get it...hahaha...sorry, will put a buck in the bad pun jar later) and The People's Champion provides a chance to be warned of ambushes, plots, etc. in areas where his renown has spread.

4th level provides the aerial takedown class feature, increasing his jumping distance, further improving it by +10 ft. per 4 class levels, allowing for a combination with a charge, grapple at the end, and potentially crash flying creatures to the ground. So cheesy and awesome - I adore it! Also at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the luchador may select a stable talent, which contain the option to wear armor in conjunction with their unarmored AC, swashbuckler poaching (including the Dueling Cape Deed), short-term dazing, immediate AOE-demoralizes after knocking foes out, directing escape attempt, including teleportation, into devastating throws, ki-poaching (including short-term flight)...and so on. There also are amazing stable-exclusives like setting yourself ablaze if you're an oily wrestler, gaining nigh-inescapable sumo-grips, follow up attacks to grapples or trips...or, obviously, gaining a vigilante talent, though this one probably should have a "can be taken multiple times"-caveat.

The talents deserve special mention in particularly when combined with the 15 (unless I miscounted) new feats: Cloak throws that combine feints with grapples and throws, Dragon Style-synergy special charges, gaining a tattoo that lets you enchant your unarmed strikes, Dopkicks, Suplexes, alternate damages caused via Eagle Strikes of the Serpent that double as short-term debuff, combining elemental fists with grapples, eyegouging and nosebreaking and even Tag Team's an option. Why am I talking about the feats now, right in the class discussion? Well, because they are precise, complex, employ concepts you can't usually execute well...and because they help the class gain something you only rarely see: When you take the feats in conjunction with the talents, you can generate an absolutely amazing combo-playstyle that lets you do something different a lot of the time; I have not seen a martial class with this much combo potential often; favorites like Interjection Games' Master of Forms, Assassin or certain Akashic classes or the Swordmaster come to mind - I love this one's options.

The capstone nets DR 10/- and fast healing 1 and eliminates aging ability score penalties.

Beyond the basic set-up of the class, the pdf also features a ton of archetypes, 8 to be more precise: The Blood Breaker gets a mutagen instead of skillful combatant and may select associated discoveries...but I wish its engine had further emphasized this. The Dancing Dervish must Perform (dance) to gain an AC-bonus and instead of the 4th level talent, momentum helps him substitute his check for attacks, with 10th level's whirlwind strike providing this for all attacks, with modified math. Not a big fan of this one; it doesn't click and while the skill vs. CMD with the mods is okay, the matter of fact remains that skills can easily be cheesed. The Earthbound gains the stalwart defender's defensive stance at 4th level, gain a social skill bonus and a capstone, that increases their defensive abilities. Okay tweak of the engine, but could have gone further in my book. The Ki Striker gains Elemental Fist at 1st level, are locked into spiritual power as the 4th level stable talent and may, at higher levels, send forth surges of energy via ki and gain a deadly array of ki-powered strikes at a higher level. I like this one, though it once again could further develop the theme.

The Lichador would be one of my favorites, gaining undead resistances, additional damage versus the undead as well as several unique stable talents - from blood drain to a vargouille's paralyzing shriek (yep, with an end after one attack for balance's sake - thank you!) and high level energy drain/mummy rot or becoming shadowy, the theme of this archetype is amazing and it ALSO changes the engine to play differently LOVE this one! The Masked Beast gains the hunter's animal focus via his totem mask, with different abilities depending on the animal emulated and they also gain a proper natural weapon - codified perfectly and 4th level unlocking wild shape - another definite winner here that radically changes the playstyle! The Masked Saint would be the pala-crossover option. Finally, there would be the rudo - these guys usually are the villains, the heels, the guys you love to hate - masters of dirty tricks and sans corazon. They also gain teamwork feats and an accomplice cohort...and I kinda like the idea here, but considering the loss of power that the lack of corazon provides, I don't really consider these guys perfectly balanced - they can use an upgrade.

I am a HUGE fan of how the pdf handles favored class options: Instead of a bland one-line note of crunch, each race covered also notes the take of the race on the class - and the FCOs are neat and go beyond core: Skybourne's extensive race-catalog receives support here - kudos for going the extra mile!

The pdf also features rules for wrestling oils, two types of masks, steel-backed folding chairs and tables and 7 magic items: Laces that enhance your charging (and prevent embarrassing stumbles), powerful championship belts taht combine deflection bonuses to AC and a bonus to Strength and Con, further enhancing the item's potency when defeating worthy foes (yes, concisely defined). A vial of renewing oil and a total of 4 enchanted masks complement this section. Personally, I'd have priced the belt higher, but that may be me. Amazing: One of the masks provides a means to heal when attacking, but cannot be abused and comes with an appropriate Achilles heel. Two thumbs up!

Conclusion:
Editing and formatting are very good on a formal level, excellent on a rules-language level. The pdf tackles highly complex subject matter and boils it down to concise options. Layout adheres to a solid 2-column, full-color standard and the pdf comes fully bookmarked for your convenience. The original pieces of full-color artwork are internally consistent and employ Jacob Blackmon's signature style.

Michael Sayre's Luchador takes one of the most maligned, hated mechanics in Pathfinder and makes it amazing - I usually don't grapple a lot as a GM, nor do my players...the luchador may well change that. The damn cool combo potential of the class allows for some seriously cool experimentation and exceedingly rewarding "OMG, SEE WHAT I DID THERE?!?"-moments - so yes, the luchador class-frame with its feats is amazing. Similarly, I loved the detail given to the racial options and the magic and mundane items also are great. So all amazing? Well, almost. On the archetype-front, this felt a bit like it followed two design philosophies: On one hand, we get a lot of minor engine-tweaks and then there are those amazing bits like the Lichador.

When seen back to back, it becomes pretty much immediately apparent, that the Blood Brother, for example, could carry SO MUCH MORE. I mean, come on, Mr. Hyde luchador? That's 10 types of awesome and deserves some cool combo-mechanics - burning mutagen duration for special tricks, blood lusts, odd mutations, acid pustules...there is so much to be done here...and the pdf settled for the base minimum. I know that this is me being a damn, spoiled brat of a reviewer, but I do feel that the excellent base class deserved more of the complex, cool archetypes.

To sum this up: The luchador is an excellent class and one that will, with a cosmetic reskin, feature for several monk orders in my games. It is a design-feat and fun to play and definitely a class for players that usually are bored by martials. It is rewarding and great...but the archetypes, as a whole, only reach the level of good to very good as a total, not the excellence of the rest of the pdf. As such, the pdf misses by seal of approval by a tiny margin, but I will still remain with a definite recommendation of a 5-star-rating.

Endzietgeist out.

Ready to Rumble

4/5 —

All right, Smarks! It's time to expose the business with a review!

Things I like

-I appreciate both Professional Wrestler and Skillful Combatant for not allowing a 3/4ths BAB to absolutely ruin this class's ability to grapple. It was something I was worried about, and I'm glad to see both of these kick in at 1st level.

-Some of the new social talents are pretty amusing, giving a nice buff to their numbers.

-Aerial takedown is cheesy and I love it.

-For the most part, the new talents are pretty cool, with en fuego being a favorite of mine for the silly visual of it. Some feel like they shouldn't be stable locked like inescapable, but it's not a large issue. There are a few that feel kind of weak, but that's to be expected.

-Earthbound is a fun archetype that I just want to enjoy, and it gives me a very amused smile at the thought of playing that overly solid wrestler. Kudos for not stable locking this one.

-Overall I like Ki Striker. It's not a huge difference from the base class, but it gives just enough to where I can appreciate it.

-Lichador might be my favorite archetype from this book for how much it changes the base class, embraces a new theme, and goes into detail about making this theme viable. It's certainly one that I'd enjoy playing.

-For what it trades, Masked Beast feels like a fun upgrade to me since I'm not big on stables, giving a fun alternative to play a more bestial grappler.

-Masked saint is also basically a straight (if alignment locked) upgrade to the base class, and having a healing brawler is a great thing in most parties.

-I appreciate the amount of effort that went into the race section, rather than just a list of favored class bonuses.

-The feat section is nice and tight with a lot of things I could see using with other classes while still feeling unique, and I just kind of love shoulder throw.

-Call me a mark, but I enjoyed the table and chair, even if I thought you should be able to put an opponent through a table. The rest of the items were fun as well, and I do enjoy championship belt quite a bit.

Things of which I am uncertain about

-While 6+ int class skills is nice, I guess I just kind of see this as a 4+ int class skill sort of hybrid.

-I do like submission specialist as an ability, but it feels like it could have been optional.

-Stables feel like they should mean more, it feels like a very lacking decision.

-The shamanic line of social talents feels off and the idea of being able to summon a shaman no matter your location makes it feel very video gamey.

-From how it reads, I think they can only ever gain one vigilante talent as opposed to luchador talents, which isn't a great situation.

-I really want to like the blood breaker, but I feel it gives up too much. Still, the concept makes me smile even if I'm not in love. I'd probably retool it so that the mutagen was auto scaling rather than requiring you to burn talents on it.

Things which I don't like

-I'm not a huge fan of the word 'corazon' being used here myself, it just feels wrong for the concept being used. Also being able to just beat the opponent that beat you without needing it to be 1 v 1 to get back your corazon feels really cheap. Even certain talents needing corazon feels unnecessary. I guess the entire concept just doesn't feel like it matches the spirit of what I would want here, and the mechanical downside for losing it feels underwhemling.

-I'm not even a little of the fan of the art used in this book.

-Dancing Dervish feels off both thematically and mechanically in a way that I don't love.

-Rudos are our heels, and honestly, to me a heel shouldn't involve teamwork feats. Losing Corazon here is a plus to me, but given the rough penalties for lacking it with some social talents, the entire archetype feels like a downgrade.

Final Thoughts
This class has a lot of fun to it, but I think there's just some design that I'd rather see changed in it. Submission specialist being mandatory and thus pushing back the acquisition of stable talents was less than ideal, as one of the things I liked most about the vigilante was the quick-ish rate at which they accrued. Without an extra stable talent feat or any other way to get them, a lot of these options for characters are too limited to be of use, making me wish submission specialist hadn't been included.

As a whole, the flavor and such is a lot of fun, especially for wrestling fans who have no doubt spied a few references thrown in, although I'd have liked Rudo to have been a stable rather than an archetype to give a stronger base to that idea, since heel wrestlers are very important in the industry.

While not as strong as the vigilante, this is a perfectly viable Tier 4 class that simply oozes charm and finesse and will really help to make you feel like you're playing your own jobber, so I'll leave it with a solid 4/5.

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Community Manager
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Scarab Sages

Sweet! This class was fun to write, and even more fun to playtest. Big shout-out to Jacob Blackmon for absolutely killing it on the cover art, and telling you in exquisite, wordless detail exactly why you want to play a luchador, or have one in your group!

If you happen to be a Drop Dead fan who backed the Skybourne Kickstarter, or if you've found Skybourne through another means, you'll be happy to know that this supplement contains FCBs for every single one of the Skybourne races (as well as all the core races!), and a brief description on how those races interact with the art and techniques of masked wrestling.

Something tells me Ssalarn has been watching a ton of Lucha Underground lately.
Scarab Sages
Gambit wrote:
Something tells me Ssalarn has been watching a ton of Lucha Underground lately.

Creating a more dynamic grappler and getting some more WWE, "flashy" style options to make wrestling characters in PF more cinematic is something that's been percolating in the back of my head for a while now.

The fact that lucha libre media has been on the rise a bit of late only helps matters :)
Ssalarn wrote:
Gambit wrote:
Something tells me Ssalarn has been watching a ton of Lucha Underground lately.

Creating a more dynamic grappler and getting some more WWE, "flashy" style options to make wrestling characters in PF more cinematic is something that's been percolating in the back of my head for a while now.

The fact that lucha libre media has been on the rise a bit of late only helps matters :)

It has? Does this mean someone is selling English subbed or dubbed DVDs of the classic 'El Santo vs. the monsters' movies?

Scarab Sages
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Gambit wrote:
Something tells me Ssalarn has been watching a ton of Lucha Underground lately.

Creating a more dynamic grappler and getting some more WWE, "flashy" style options to make wrestling characters in PF more cinematic is something that's been percolating in the back of my head for a while now.

The fact that lucha libre media has been on the rise a bit of late only helps matters :)

It has? Does this mean someone is selling English subbed or dubbed DVDs of the classic 'El Santo vs. the monsters' movies?

God I hope so.

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I cannot download this PDF. Help!
Scarab Sages
David knott 242 wrote:

I cannot download this PDF. Help!

No idea if I can help, but what's happening when you try to download it?

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Absolutely nothing -- no message about downloading or personalizing. I have seen this problem many times before -- it can only be fixed from the Paizo side as best I can tell. I have no idea whether you can do anything about it or we need to wait for the Web team to poke it during business hours.
Scarab Sages
David knott 242 wrote:

Absolutely nothing -- no message about downloading or personalizing. I have seen this problem many times before -- it can only be fixed from the Paizo side as best I can tell. I have no idea whether you can do anything about it or we need to wait for the Web team to poke it during business hours.

Yeah, unfortunately it looks like you'll have to wait until Paizo's staff gets in tomorrow.

Sorry that you're experiencing this inconvenience, but thank you for your purchase! If things don't get sorted by tomorrow afternoon, let me know and I'll see if we can ping Liz for you or something.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The problem hasn't been fixed.

I'll send Liz an email and ask her to help.
Scarab Sages
David knott 242 wrote:

The problem hasn't been fixed.

Has this been sorted out yet?

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Nope.
Community Manager
1 person marked this as a favorite.

Please try downloading the PDF again, folks.
Scarab Sages
Liz Courts wrote:
Please try downloading the PDF again, folks.

Thanks Liz!

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I have been away from my computer for a while -- I just downloaded it. Comments tomorrow at the earliet. Thanks Liz!
Scarab Sages
David knott 242 wrote:
I have been away from my computer for a while -- I just downloaded it. Comments tomorrow at the earliet. Thanks Liz!

Glad this got sorted out for you. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The Luchador is an interesting hybrid of the Monk and the Vigilante -- and I love how the archetypes let you throw in a dash of yet another class. I am surprised that nobody else has done something like this yet -- the Vigilante is a class that just begs to be used as a building block for hybrid classes.

I think I can say that if I ever decide to play a superhero type, I would probably go for the Luchador -- there is something about wearing armor and wielding weapons that just does not seem to have the right flavor for a masked/costumed hero type.
Scarab Sages
David knott 242 wrote:

The Luchador is an interesting hybrid of the Monk and the Vigilante -- and I love how the archetypes let you throw in a dash of yet another class. I am surprised that nobody else has done something like this yet -- the Vigilante is a class that just begs to be used as a building block for hybrid classes.

I think I can say that if I ever decide to play a superhero type, I would probably go for the Luchador -- there is something about wearing armor and wielding weapons that just does not seem to have the right flavor for a masked/costumed hero type.

Giving you some more fun costumed hero types was definitely a big goal of the Luchador. Some of the archetypes, like the Masked Beast, were directly inspired by some of my favorite comic book characters, and the choice to go with Charisma as the Luchador's primary mental stat over Wisdom was a combination of wanting it to be a bit more distinct from the monk (though I think it's unlikely you'd ever get the two classes confused regardless), and to help emphasize the larger-than-life, grandiose nature of the character inspiration.

If you happen to be considering running a game where an entire party of masked hero types would fit, keep an eye out for Vigilantes of Skybourne, coming soon. There are going to be a ton of new vigilante options in that book, including Spheres of Power based vigilante talents called "mutations" that emulate numerous iconic powers and provide several interesting and entirely unique new options to your library. There's also some more traditional masked hero options, like a "Dread Pirate Roberts" based PrC, archetypes for all of the Skybourne races, and even an additional luchador archetype for players who want to play a luchador that gains an animal companion. There's also even more feats appropriate for vigilantes, luchadors, and any other character seeking to maintain a secret identity.
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So hope to get my hands on this before our next game starts. My wife (GM) will probably kill me though.
Scarab Sages
Talonhawke wrote:
So hope to get my hands on this before our next game starts. My wife (GM) will probably kill me though.

So, granted I wrote it, I think the luchador can click right in to any campaign world that already has room for core classes like the kineticist and vigilante. Sure it's not exactly Tolkein-esque fantasy, but it also doesn't impose too many assumptions on the world it inhabits.

The Luchador also includes FCBs for all of the core and Skybourne races, with explanations on how luchador training or traditions may develop in those cultures, so you've got some handy story aids for integrating the concept into an existing campaign world.
I suspect if your wife lets you run with it, she'll be pleasantly surprised by the positive impact it has on the game. My wife helped playtest the luchador while it was in development, and she's already itching to retrain her character in our Saturday game into a luchador so she can keep playing with the class.

Now that the book has been out for a couple weeks, I'm curious what people's reactions are; how's the class and the new grappling options and such played at your table?
Scarab Sages
AdamMeyers wrote:
Now that the book has been out for a couple weeks, I'm curious what people's reactions are; how's the class and the new grappling options and such played at your table?

I thought I might talk a bit about some design decisions I made with the Luchador and how they affect game mechanics.

While I was making the Luchador, I was thinking about how much a friend of mine who was deployed overseas would enjoy the class when he got back. My friend, Isaac, in addition to being a member of our regular gaming group along with his wife, is also an avid Magic: The Gathering player, and I got to thinking about structuring a character who you could build like a deck, but without having spells, maneuvers, or other "flashcard" or Vancian type options. Basically, use all the same rules the core martial characters use, but add ways to assemble those rules and actions into different configurations than you might normally see. Combining that with some ideas I had about making grappling and wrestling a more cinematic affair than it generally is in Pathfinder led to me assembling a class that has tons of "triggers" abilities that key off of circumstances and action choices that you can chain together to have a more active and dynamic combat experience.

One of the more extreme examples of this is something I jokingly call the "Hyper-Dream-Super-Combo-Finisher". It involves a high level (15th) Luchador with the Rudo archetype chaining a bunch of triggers together with his Accomplice (think the Squire feat, only granting an unarmed striker companion instead of martial weapons proficient companion). So, how it works, is you need to take the Tag Team feat, the Coordinated Charge feat (the Rudo automatically shares his teamwork feats with his Accomplice), you and/or your Accomplice should have the Suplex feat, and the Rebound Stamp and Knee Strike luchador talents. So, on your turn, your luchador uses the Rebound Stamp feat to charge at the enemy and dropkick them, dealing double unarmed strike + double STR bonus damage to the enemy, then makes an Acrobatics check (part of the Rebound Stamp ability) to bounce to a spot within 15 feet of the enemy. Then, his shared Coordinated Charge feat allows his Accomplice to charge the enemy and do the same thing as an immediate action- charge, dropkick, rebound to 15 feet away. Then the luchador spends his immediate reaction via Coordinated Charge (triggered by his allies' charge) to charge the enemy, uses Aerial Takedown to grapple the opponent at the end of the charge, and makes an attack of opportunity with his unarmed strike via Knee Strike. Now, on his Accomplice's turn, assuming the Luchador still has control of his grapple, the Accomplice uses Tag Team to take over your grapple, counts it as successfully maintaining a grapple (again thanks to Tag Team), which allows him to perform a Suplex, automatically threatening a critical hit with his unarmed strike and potentially stunning the opponent. From there, you can use Tag Team to chain suplexes, you can do another dropkick, or, if you've well and thoroughly battered that opponent into submission, you can go after your next target. And this is just one combo set up, at a level where you've probably got at least half a dozen other tricks that aren't part of this particular combo but can be used in combos of their own!

You follow all that? Like I mentioned, it's a fairly high level trick, but I like using it as an example since it uses several of the Luchador's "triggers" in a way that lets you chain together a really awesome combo of attacks that all trigger off your grappling and wrestling techniques. The class and the associated feats are all full of triggers like this. You can have triggers to attack when you succeed on a grapple, when an opponent succeeds on a grapple, when an opponent fails at a grapple, or triggers to grapple when you successfully feint against an opponent, perform a Dirty Trick when you successfully grapple, etc. Everything in the class shines best when you figure out which combinations of abilities you want to use as your "signature moves" and come up with a few different ways to chain your trigger abilities together. It gives you a bunch of cool tricks, keeps you active and engaged even when it's not your turn since you probably have one or two triggers that can happen off turn, and it breaks you away from traditional full attack mechanics and lets you focus more on mobility and fun, flashy attacks and debuffs.

In some ways, it's kind of like answering the question "what would it look like if you built a class that used Path of War style action economy for a martial character without using maneuvers and instead hinging off the game's existing framework". Your best use of your actions is generally going to involve moving around and using a standard action grapple, or charging grapples with Aerial Takedown, and then getting your damage and debuffs or whatever you're focusing on through triggered abilities that let you better leverage your swift/immediate actions and attacks of opportunity. You get to move a lot without giving up your effectiveness and get to really occupy and impact a lot of real estate in combat, while still having the skill proficiency and social abilities of a character with dual identities and social talents.
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AdamMeyers wrote:
Now that the book has been out for a couple weeks, I'm curious what people's reactions are; how's the class and the new grappling options and such played at your table?

We love it. Being able to get immediate results from grappling made it a significantly more attractive option. I am planning a big wrestling event in my next campaign because of this.

Ssalarn wrote:
Your best use of your actions is generally going to involve moving around and using a standard action grapple, or charging grapples with Aerial Takedown, and then getting your damage and debuffs or whatever you're focusing on through triggered abilities that let you better leverage your swift/immediate actions and attacks of opportunity. You get to move a lot without giving up your effectiveness and get to really occupy and impact a lot of real estate in combat...

This is another big reason why its fun. Getting to actually move and do your stuff is great.

Scarab Sages
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Adam B. 135 wrote:
AdamMeyers wrote:
Now that the book has been out for a couple weeks, I'm curious what people's reactions are; how's the class and the new grappling options and such played at your table?
We love it. Being able to get immediate results from grappling made it a significantly more attractive option. I am planning a big wrestling event in my next campaign because of this.

I love hearing about how new materials I've worked on make it into campaigns! One of our playtest events was a big "king of the ring" affair in a wrestling ring that had a lake along one side and a molten pit of lava on the other, with audience seating arranged on the other sides. We used standard races and a 20 point buy the first time through, and then decided to get a little crazy for the second event and went 25 point buy with races pulled from Dreamscarred's Akashic Mysteries and The Advanced Race Guide from Kobold Press, so there was a vulturefolk Lichador, a rhinofolk Luchador (Sumo), a tigerfolk Masked Beast, a centaur Luchador (Freestyle), a turtlefolk Luchador (Oil Wrestler) who worked in at least one good turtle wax joke, and a standard human Luchador (also Freestyle if I recall correctly), wondering why he was in a zoo. Good times were had by all.

Quote:


Ssalarn wrote:
Your best use of your actions is generally going to involve moving around and using a standard action grapple, or charging grapples with Aerial Takedown, and then getting your damage and debuffs or whatever you're focusing on through triggered abilities that let you better leverage your swift/immediate actions and attacks of opportunity. You get to move a lot without giving up your effectiveness and get to really occupy and impact a lot of real estate in combat...
This is another big reason why its fun. Getting to actually move and do your stuff is great.

I love dynamic combat. Fights where everyone moves as little as possible so they can keep getting their full attacks are, if I'm being honest, excruciatingly boring for me, so having these luchador options where you have martial combatants leaping into the air, performing charging tackles, throwing enemies around, and just generally punching, kicking, and headbutting while grappling their opponents is a blast, and in my experience, it really boosts player engagement and makes the night fly by.

Ssalarn wrote:
25 point buy with races pulled from Dreamscarred's Akashic Mysteries and The Advanced Race Guide from Kobold Press,

Speaking of this, what are the chances of any 3rd party crossover? I would love to see that.

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Ssalarn wrote:
there was a vulturefolk Lichador,

A lichador? Does he use his mask as a phylactery? Man that sounds like a great idea.

Ssalarn wrote:
a rhinofolk Luchador (Sumo), a tigerfolk Masked Beast, a centaur Luchador (Freestyle), a turtlefolk Luchador (Oil Wrestler) who worked in at least one good turtle wax joke, and a standard human Luchador (also Freestyle if I recall correctly), wondering why he was in a zoo.

Sounds like either an 80's Saturday Morning cartoon or an El Santo movie. This PDF sounds like it is freaking amazing.

Scarab Sages
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
there was a vulturefolk Lichador,
A lichador? Does he use his mask as a phylactery? Man that sounds like a great idea.

Lol! Yeah, that's one of his class features. He doesn't attain true lichdom until late game, but he can get all kinds of undead abilities along the way, and still snag some good wrestling options.

Quote:


Ssalarn wrote:
a rhinofolk Luchador (Sumo), a tigerfolk Masked Beast, a centaur Luchador (Freestyle), a turtlefolk Luchador (Oil Wrestler) who worked in at least one good turtle wax joke, and a standard human Luchador (also Freestyle if I recall correctly), wondering why he was in a zoo.
Sounds like either an 80's Saturday Morning cartoon or an El Santo movie. This PDF sounds like it is freaking amazing.

Comparing it to a Saturday morning cartoon was one of my first acts as GM for the session! It was actually ridiculously fun, with the rhino sumo swatting contenders with other contenders, the turtlefolk oil wrestler doing flaming dropkicks, etc. I was definitely shooting for a mix in the class design that was something like one part El Santo movie, one part Street Fighter, two parts WWE, and a splash of Mucha Lucha.

How easy is this to reflavour?
Scarab Sages
Milo v3 wrote:
How easy is this to reflavour?

Shouldn't be too difficult. You've basically got big unarmed combat and grappling moves combined with dual identities and social talents, so you should be able to flex the fluff to fit a number of different concepts. What did you have in mind?

Ssalarn wrote:
What did you have in mind?

Anything but a luchador I guess. My players and I haven't actually ever seen a non-comedic depiction of them in media, so it's hard for them to take the class seriously upon hearing the name.

Scarab Sages
Milo v3 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
What did you have in mind?
Anything but a luchador I guess. My players and I haven't actually ever seen a non-comedic depiction of them in media, so it's hard for them to take the class seriously upon hearing the name.

At the most basic level, it's an unarmed combat / grappling specialist with dual identities, so you can really work it into whatever tradition or concept you like within those parameters. You could treat it as just another (albeit mechanically different) vigilante with unique specializations, you could go the Lords of Waterdeep route and have your social identity be an itinerant vagabond who no one looks twice at, or a martial arts instructor who wears a mask to protect his students from retribution for his actions... There's a lot of ways to go with it, and it can be as whacky or grounded as you choose to play it.

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Mechanically, the Luchador covers just about every unarmed costumed superhero type -- which to me would actually make it a better fit than the Vigilante for most comic book heroes.
Scarab Sages
David knott 242 wrote:

Mechanically, the Luchador covers just about every unarmed costumed superhero type -- which to me would actually make it a better fit than the Vigilante for most comic book heroes.

You should associate an appropriate number of stars with that statement and make it a review :D

Silver Crusade
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And posted my review if anyone's interested.
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Milo v3 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
What did you have in mind?
Anything but a luchador I guess. My players and I haven't actually ever seen a non-comedic depiction of them in media, so it's hard for them to take the class seriously upon hearing the name.

Watch the newish anime Tiger Mask W. Over the top and flamboyant, but not comedic.

Scarab Sages
N. Jolly wrote:
And posted my review if anyone's interested.

I'll always take a 4/5 review from a thorough reviewer!

And thanks for calling out that the feats work for a lot of classes, not just the luchador! We've actually had more characters grabbing feats from the book than we have actual luchadors, though part of that is because we had one guy call dibs on playing a luchador early on and it's rare to double up on a class.

While I disagree about a couple of your thoughts on some mechanics, (especially Submission Specialist, which I consider to be an essential pacing element for the Luchador), I appreciate your thought and insight on everything.

About the rudo in particular- so, I wanted it to be something really memorable and tricky, and I did "borrow" a little WWE flair that tip-toed to the edge of lucha libre, but the idea with the teamwork feats and such was twofold; that when you see a classic wrestling heel, they typically have an entourage of douchebags who do things like slide chairs into the ring, trip or grab the opponent, etc. and the teamwork feats are a mechanical way of allowing the rudo to capitalize on these openings. The second part was as a way to hijack existing mechanics to get the options in the first place. Given that DDS' has a handbook wordcount of 15k, using teamwork feats gave me a way to open up a whole slew of mechanical benefits that your accomplices can set up for you, without having to cut a bunch of other options out of the book. I had a villain rudo with several betrayal feats who would use his accomplice as a human shield that was a much-appreciated villain in one of our games, and another rudo who, along with his accomplice, was presented as a pair of dwarven twins who had been outcast from their clan and worked as highwaymen and professional athletes (depending on which was paying the bills) who acted as much more of a classic tag-team.

I have a tendency to favor mechanical flexibility in my design, and options that can be readily refluffed to support multiple character concepts something I do in my games a lot; leaders of thieves guilds in my games are much more likely to be rangers with skirmisher tricks instead of spells, non-animal companion Hunter's Bond (unless they're also like a drug dealer who's got a pet tiger), and favored terrain (urban) than they are to be rogues. So I like to use mechanics that have as much potential for growth and serve as many interests as possible when I wrote a book. Even if I never get to do anymore Luchador materials (and I doubt that will be the case, we've already got a Luchador archetype in Vigilantes of Skybourne), the class has some staying power as long as Paizo keeps creating teamwork feats, vigilante talents, and social talents.

Sundakan wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
What did you have in mind?
Anything but a luchador I guess. My players and I haven't actually ever seen a non-comedic depiction of them in media, so it's hard for them to take the class seriously upon hearing the name.
Watch the newish anime Tiger Mask W. Over the top and flamboyant, but not comedic.

I would definitely second that recommendation! Tiger Mask E was suggested to me by a friend and I've really enjoyed what I've seen of it so far. It very closely matches the theme and tone that the luchador had in my head while I was writing the class, and I think it's a great watch to kind of start really getting that picture of how the luchador might fit into a broader campaign.

Sundakan wrote:
Watch the newish anime Tiger Mask W. Over the top and flamboyant, but not comedic.

That's still just wrestling though, rather limited when it comes to the issue of covering more than just Luchadors (especially oil wrestler). For some reason I don't think my players will be able to take an oiled up wrestler in a mask grappling dragons seriously next to the other characters.

That show probably wouldn't be able to be taken seriously if it wasn't in a setting that treated wrestling as such a major thing.
Scarab Sages
Milo v3 wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Watch the newish anime Tiger Mask W. Over the top and flamboyant, but not comedic.

That's still just wrestling though, rather limited when it comes to the issue of covering more than just Luchadors (especially oil wrestler). For some reason I don't think my players will be able to take an oiled up wrestler in a mask grappling dragons seriously next to the other characters.

That show probably wouldn't be able to be taken seriously if it wasn't in a setting that treated wrestling as such a major thing.

I suppose it depends on what your players are willing to incorporate into their vision of fantasy. For me, I feel like "greased up masked wrestler" still fits better in a fantasy world than "android with a laser rifle" or even "anime gnome who is also a bloodbender" both of which are things that are part of the 1pp product line.

Turkish oil wrestling (the inspiration for the oil wrestler stable of the luchador) has been a continuously running sanctioned sport since at least 1362; in other words, there have been oil wrestlers for at least as long as there have been firearms, and wrestling/grappling in general has been practiced as both a sport and a combat form for far longer than even that.

There's also more modern shows, like The Strain, that feature luchador heroes in settings where wrestling is very much not a focus of the story, and masked heroes in general are ubiquitous in modern pop culture, comic books, and even classic literature like the Scarlet Pimpernel (who, granted, was not a wrestler, but is your preferred method of combat really that big a deal in a fantasy setting that supports so man weapons and techniques?).
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Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS, etc.
Scarab Sages
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Endzeitgeist wrote:
Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS, etc.

Thank you for the 5 star review!

I'll have to talk to Adam about seeing if maybe we can't do an "Expanded Luchador" or "Ultimate Wrestling" release at some point where I have a bit more room to address a few of the items that didn't quite hit the mark with you (the poor Blood Breaker got hit with the editing stick quite a few times to get our word count back down to what it needed to be, and I think it's fair to say it suffered as a result).
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Thanks, Endz; always great to get your thoughts!

Thanks for making/publishing the class - it is a great offering!
Verdant Wheel
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Loved the class, thank you very much. If you want more sugestions for archetypes, what about the Capoeirist ? Would be a interesting Bard/Luchador hybrid.
Ssalarn wrote:

Thank you for the 5 star review!

I'll have to talk to Adam about seeing if maybe we can't do an "Expanded Luchador" or "Ultimate Wrestling" release at some point where I have a bit more room to address a few of the items that didn't quite hit the mark with you (the poor Blood Breaker got hit with the editing stick quite a few times to get our word count back down to what it needed to be, and I think it's fair to say it suffered as a result).

Hmm... Wonder how good the chances would be of being able to get a luchador who's outfit and/or mask are veils.

Scarab Sages
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Loved the class, thank you very much. If you want more sugestions for archetypes, what about the Capoeirist ? Would be a interesting Bard/Luchador hybrid.

Glad you enjoyed it! I had a lot of fun playtesting and writing it.

A bard/luchador mash-up could certainly look very interesting...

Also, since you played and enjoyed the class, we'd love to hear your thoughts in a review!

Milo v3 wrote:


Hmm... Wonder how good the chances would be of being able to get a luchador who's outfit and/or mask are veils.

Certainly not impossible, considering that was the case in an early homebrew I did for the Luchador :)

Ssalarn wrote:
Certainly not impossible, considering that was the case in an early homebrew I did for the Luchador :)

Guru/Monk hybrid class or something wasn't it?

Scarab Sages
Milo v3 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Certainly not impossible, considering that was the case in an early homebrew I did for the Luchador :)
Guru/Monk hybrid class or something wasn't it?

Kind of, yeah. When it was just a homebrew, I was hijacking the guru's chassis as a nonlethal martial debuffer for the luchador, but when I ended up signing a contract to do a full class release with DDS, I had to revisit the whole concept from the ground up, both so it would be accessible to players who didn't have Akashic Mysteries, and so that I had more flexibility to innovate with the core concept without it hinging on too many fiddly bits (like veils). I think what we ended up with in the luchador is really great- it has an easy access point, especially for a class that builds off the core grapple rules, but it's flexible enough to provide a really dynamic combat experience that has something for experienced number crunchers and "I just want to hit something" hack 'n slashers alike.

Anyways, yeah, expect some akashic support for the luchador at some point, whether in a future DDS release or as part of my upcoming Akashic Arts series.
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Talonhawke wrote:
So hope to get my hands on this before our next game starts. My wife (GM) will probably kill me though.

Well took a year and a half but finally got this and not disappointed one bit.

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