Ed Reppert |
What's the expanded "Summon Evil Monster" ability and list look like?
Summon Chucky. Summon Evil Santa Claus. Summon Jason. Summon Politician.
:-)
Lord Gadigan |
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What are the philosophies of a lawful evil individual?
Despot: Impose your will on those around you, expecting complete obedience, always working to expand your power
Minion: Locate a powerful figure to serve and obey, doing their will regardless of the costs to others
Swindler: Find other people's weaknesses and exploit them for your own gain; their losing out is their fault for not being smart/prepared enough
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One cool feature that I haven't heard anyone else mention yet is the new rooms for the base-building system. You can get a Blood Spa to be like Countess Bathory, bathing in the blood of others to restore your youth (temporarily, requiring regular baths to keep it up), and the Execution Yard, which increases your influence and improves your Intimdate checks after you execute someone.
I'm also happy to see new evolutions being introduced (and the Blood Summoner stuff in general), and the Alchemist discoveries, as usually seems to be the case, are rather flavorful / nice to see.
Eric Hinkle |
Silly question time, but are there any hints in the book on how you can play an evil character in a group with non-evil characters without having it end in party-destroying mayhem? I'm not into bad guys save when it's an all-villain adventure/campaign (Way of the Wicked), but it does seem that a lot of other players like to use them.
Lord Gadigan |
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There's a sidebar on helping make sure the presence of evil characters isn't problematic / party-damaging. It focuses on out-of-game solutions/tips, such as 'make sure everyone in the group is on the same page', 'decide on guidelines for how much/little PVP / inter-character conflict is acceptable before the game starts', 'determine if there's any content boundaries that the group doesn't want to cross / is uncomfortable with in advance', and 'determine from the outset why the group is willing to work together / why this evil character will be a good fit with the rest of the group'.
Beyond that, each of the three evil alignments gets a mini-sidebar in its own section that includes suggestions as to why that alignment might be working with a group of adventurers (potentially including ones with different alignments). The overall focus for 'making it work', though, is focused more on the OOC tips, though.
Barachiel Shina |
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One cool feature that I haven't heard anyone else mention yet is the new rooms for the base-building system. You can get a Blood Spa to be like Countess Bathory, bathing in the blood of others to restore your youth (temporarily, requiring regular baths to keep it up), and the Execution Yard, which increases your influence and improves your Intimdate checks after you execute someone.
I'm also happy to see new evolutions being introduced (and the Blood Summoner stuff in general), and the Alchemist discoveries, as usually seems to be the case, are rather flavorful / nice to see.
Ok that is cool. I thought their ROOM building material from Ultimate Campaign was just going to be left in the dust like other materials they made. Glad to see new rooms.
Izar Talon |
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An eventual Champions of Chaos book that had a section focused on the Old Cults, with some Traits, Feats, spells, and maybe even a few Archetypes for Outer God and Great Old One worshipers, would be very, very cool.
Maybe some Archetypes like a Mad Cleric of Azathoth (who deals with the magic of primal creation and destruction,) Dark Mother Druid of Shub-Niggurath (who tends groves of Dark Young and corrupts woodlands into domains of monsters and aberrations,) Gatekeeper of Yog-Sothoth Wizard (some kind of teleportation or dimensional space/time magic specialist,) Witchcultist of the Black Pharaoh (who sign their names in Nyarlathotep's black book for powers of spreading Chaos, turmoil, and forbidden knowledge) or a Shepherd of Hastur* Bard (who lead troupes/cults of insane actors that travel around putting on plays that drive more people mad, their combined actor/audience flock growing larger with each performance, and specializing in manipulating small hordes of insane followers and inflicting temporary insanity/Confusion/mind-control with their Bardic performances.)
That would be rad.
*Bonus points if the Bard is named Haïta the Shepherd.
nighttree |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Silly question time, but are there any hints in the book on how you can play an evil character in a group with non-evil characters without having it end in party-destroying mayhem? I'm not into bad guys save when it's an all-villain adventure/campaign (Way of the Wicked), but it does seem that a lot of other players like to use them.
Playing an evil character works fine if the "player" is intelligent.
An evil character does not need to run around trying to back stab his mates, kill children, and eat puppies all day;)Axial |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
An eventual Champions of Chaos book that had a section focused on the Old Cults, with some Traits, Feats, spells, and maybe even a few Archetypes for Outer God and Great Old One worshipers, would be very, very cool.
Maybe some Archetypes like a Mad Cleric of Azathoth (who deals with the magic of primal creation and destruction,) Dark Mother Druid of Shub-Niggurath (who tends groves of Dark Young and corrupts woodlands into domains of monsters and aberrations,) Gatekeeper of Yog-Sothoth Wizard (some kind of teleportation or dimensional space/time magic specialist,) Witchcultist of the Black Pharaoh (who sign their names in Nyarlathotep's black book for powers of spreading Chaos, turmoil, and forbidden knowledge) or a Shepherd of Hastur* Bard (who lead troupes/cults of insane actors that travel around putting on plays that drive more people mad, their combined actor/audience flock growing larger with each performance, and specializing in manipulating small hordes of insane followers and inflicting temporary insanity/Confusion/mind-control with their Bardic performances.)
That would be rad.
*Bonus points if the Bard is named Haïta the Shepherd.
What you are suggesting is less of a "Champions of Chaos" book and more of a Pathfinder: Mythos Companion.
Barachiel Shina |
Champions of Chaos and Champions of Order would be great new books. Though I think Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral were covered in Champions of Balance somewhat. But that book was more of about balances between all 4 axis' as opposed to simply being all about Chaos and Law.
And who knows, maybe Paizo will finally do an Adventure Path that actually involves Law vs Chaos element and make great use of inevitables, aeons, and proteans in their adventure path.
Eric Hinkle |
There's a sidebar on helping make sure the presence of evil characters isn't problematic / party-damaging. It focuses on out-of-game solutions/tips, such as 'make sure everyone in the group is on the same page', 'decide on guidelines for how much/little PVP / inter-character conflict is acceptable before the game starts', 'determine if there's any content boundaries that the group doesn't want to cross / is uncomfortable with in advance', and 'determine from the outset why the group is willing to work together / why this evil character will be a good fit with the rest of the group'.
Beyond that, each of the three evil alignments gets a mini-sidebar in its own section that includes suggestions as to why that alignment might be working with a group of adventurers (potentially including ones with different alignments). The overall focus for 'making it work', though, is focused more on the OOC tips, though.
Sounds good. Ever since a long-ago reference to Nocticula being ready to make the leap from demon lord to full-fledged goddess, apparently over Lamashtu's dead body, and how her assassin cults were angering the Red Mantis, part of me wanted to do an adventure that involved Lamashtans and Red Mantis assassins alongside the more usual heroes as they fought against Nocticula's killers.
Skeld |
Is there enough stuff in here not dripping with gore than some will be PFS legal or is there so much red on the pages its all gotta go?
I don't know how much will make it into PFS. Most of the material seems to me to be stuff that's standard "evil" (cannibalism, blood rituals, heck there's plenty of stuff Evil this and Evil that) that I don't see how much of it will be PFS legal.
-Skeld
Alleran |
Most of the material seems to me to be stuff that's standard "evil" (cannibalism, blood rituals, heck there's plenty of stuff Evil this and Evil that) that I don't see how much of it will be PFS legal.
Kick The Dog and For The Evulz Evil? Or is there also more reasonable/subtle Evil present?
Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4 |
Skeld said, "Summons as a standard action." If that's true and not a typo, that's VERY good. It is usually a full-round action to summon a monster. That's worth the Diehard or other extra benefit in and of itself. It might even be better, depending on who you ask.
You can summon this as a standard action, but they can't act until your next turn, except.... They are not flat-footed, and they can take AOOs. So you can summon your creatures in front of you and start to establish a defense perimeter and carry on normal business on your next turn.
There is also an add-on benefit if you have Sacred Summons. That way, if you have both feats you don't experience redundancy, you can get some extra benefit.
The monster list has a nice assortment of evil outsiders like divs, ausuras, kytons, daemons, and even some evil fey, as well as a few standby demons and devils (which is important because creatures not on this list aren't subject to its benefits).
Edit: Oh, I forgot, there are some gremlins on the list too. No point in summoning low level evil creatures in greater numbers? Tell that to the pugwumpis.
You're welcome, Evil.
John Compton Developer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've given the book a fairly thorough read, and there are certainly some elements that could be suitable for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. There are also plenty of options that are not suitable for the campaign.
Dread Knight |
I've given the book a fairly thorough read, and there are certainly some elements that could be suitable for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. There are also plenty of options that are not suitable for the campaign.
Good to hear that the entire book won't be banned; I hope that the Blood Summoner will make it on the list of legal material it sounds cool.
UllarWarlord Contributor |
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Oh my. Greed subdomain...it is beyond hilarious.
The summary of it: you can steal spell effects away from others, possibly even affecting yourself twice! True, they may not stack, but...heh.
The best part: It's a level 1 3+Wis/day ability. Sure, it's a steep caster level check to make at lower levels (15+spell level), but I really want to make a character witht his subdomain.
For reference, Asmodeus, Dahak, Lao Shu Po, and Norgorber get it.
Axial |
Oh my. Greed subdomain...it is beyond hilarious.
The summary of it: you can steal spell effects away from others, possibly even affecting yourself twice! True, they may not stack, but...heh.
The best part: It's a level 1 3+Wis/day ability. Sure, it's a steep caster level check to make at lower levels (15+spell level), but I really want to make a character witht his subdomain.
For reference, Asmodeus, Dahak, Lao Shu Po, and Norgorber get it.
So it's a subdomain of evil, right?
Grimwäär |
UllarWarlord wrote:So it's a subdomain of evil, right?Oh my. Greed subdomain...it is beyond hilarious.
The summary of it: you can steal spell effects away from others, possibly even affecting yourself twice! True, they may not stack, but...heh.
The best part: It's a level 1 3+Wis/day ability. Sure, it's a steep caster level check to make at lower levels (15+spell level), but I really want to make a character witht his subdomain.
For reference, Asmodeus, Dahak, Lao Shu Po, and Norgorber get it.
Greed Subdomain is up on D20 under Trickery.
Marian Reinholtz |
Oh my. Greed subdomain...it is beyond hilarious.
The summary of it: you can steal spell effects away from others, possibly even affecting yourself twice! True, they may not stack, but...heh.
The best part: It's a level 1 3+Wis/day ability. Sure, it's a steep caster level check to make at lower levels (15+spell level), but I really want to make a character witht his subdomain.
For reference, Asmodeus, Dahak, Lao Shu Po, and Norgorber get it.
So do they have sub-domains for all seven sins ?
Ed Reppert |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I inter to grab a copy today. Wondering if this will complete my battle cleric necromancer of Urgathoa with new, sexy options. We'll see.
I suppose burial is an appropriate method of sacrifice for a necromancer. :-)
Lord Gadigan |
So do they have sub-domains for all seven sins ?
Not in this. This has Cannibalism, Corruption, Demodand, Greed, Hatred, and Kyton.
The Advanced Players' Guide has Lust in it. It also has Rage, and you could use Rage or Hatred as a stand-in for Wrath.
You *might* be able to spin Tyranny from Inner Sea Gods as Pride.
Beyond that, Pride, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth (or Despair instead of Sloth if you're using the original set instead of the more-modern one) don't really have directly-correspondent subdomains yet.
You might want to look into Thassilonian Rune Magic, though, as it is based around the Seven Deadly Sins (using Sloth).
AlgaeNymph |
Zergtitan wrote:What are the philosophies of a lawful evil individual?Despot: Impose your will on those around you, expecting complete obedience, always working to expand your power
Minion: Locate a powerful figure to serve and obey, doing their will regardless of the costs to others
Swindler: Find other people's weaknesses and exploit them for your own gain; their losing out is their fault for not being smart/prepared enough
And for the other evil alignments?
Izar Talon |
Izar Talon wrote:What you are suggesting is less of a "Champions of Chaos" book and more of a Pathfinder: Mythos Companion.An eventual Champions of Chaos book that had a section focused on the Old Cults, with some Traits, Feats, spells, and maybe even a few Archetypes for Outer God and Great Old One worshipers, would be very, very cool.
Maybe some Archetypes like a Mad Cleric of Azathoth (who deals with the magic of primal creation and destruction,) Dark Mother Druid of Shub-Niggurath (who tends groves of Dark Young and corrupts woodlands into domains of monsters and aberrations,) Gatekeeper of Yog-Sothoth Wizard (some kind of teleportation or dimensional space/time magic specialist,) Witchcultist of the Black Pharaoh (who sign their names in Nyarlathotep's black book for powers of spreading Chaos, turmoil, and forbidden knowledge) or a Shepherd of Hastur* Bard (who lead troupes/cults of insane actors that travel around putting on plays that drive more people mad, their combined actor/audience flock growing larger with each performance, and specializing in manipulating small hordes of insane followers and inflicting temporary insanity/Confusion/mind-control with their Bardic performances.)
That would be rad.
*Bonus points if the Bard is named Haïta the Shepherd.
Oh, I wouldn't expect ALL of those to be in the book, just one (or maybe 2.) I was just coming up with possible ideas. :)
Duncan7291 |
John Compton wrote:I've given the book a fairly thorough read, and there are certainly some elements that could be suitable for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. There are also plenty of options that are not suitable for the campaign.Good to hear that the entire book won't be banned; I hope that the Blood Summoner will make it on the list of legal material it sounds cool.
Come on John, we have our big boy pants on...lets put all of it in PFS :) (I'll settle for a significant amount of it as a compromise. Good? Ok, done.)
Lord Gadigan |
And for the other evil alignments?
NE-
Annihilist: Thinks nothing matters and everything ends eventually. Wants to have fun tearing it all down.Narcissist: Wants its own whims catered to above other concerns.
Psychopath: Is incapable of empathy and remorse, treating others as amusements, useful tools, or disposable.
CE-
Devotee: Has a philosophical or cult-based devotion to chaos, evil, and destruction. Generally, but not always, comes from a desire for power and the thought that some powerful entity of chaos/evil would be a potential source of said power.
Fury: Is driven by rage, whether that rage comes from a horrible past, a general disgust with the world, general entitlement, or a particularly sour disposition.
Hedonist: Seeks personal pleasure above all else and feels consequence to be secondary to the pursuit of such.
Ashram |
Pretty sure it's an error. He does live in Axis, but I've seen no sign in any other book of him making an alignment shift, and that'd be a pretty notable setting-change with him being one of the core deities.
Just like as of Inner Sea Magic Iomedae suddenly decided to say "Screw paladins" and is listed as Lawful Neutral. It's just sloppy editing.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Was there a particular reason that Betrayal feats were written so that the classes most likely to be picking up Teamwork feats would have to suffer from a severe masochistic streak to take them? With the requirement that people these feats are shared with can only be initiators, not abettors, these feats are not only something that I don't expect anyone to ever take, they also don't belong in a book called "Champions of Corruption", since someone taking them would either have to be a selfless martyr or a gullible schmuck.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Well it makes sense for a Kuthite at least. "Yeah, hit me. Hit me HARDER!"
I mentioned masochist earlier in my post but I probably should have put them together into "martyr, masochist, or gullible schmuck". So I guess maybe one of those could fit in, but the feats still fail to deliver on their stated theme of "reaping a benefit at your allies expense", and instead help your allies at your own expense (not very evil).
David Neilson |
More seriously the one for archery is pretty good. Especially if your companion is either a gunslinger or an archer that really likes vital strike, and you are okay with investing in deflect arrows.
The other choices are if you have an animal companion, and want to play the Hunter with the least concern for their little battle buddy.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
The other choices are if you have an animal companion, and want to play the Hunter with the least concern for their little battle buddy.
That doesn't work. Betrayal feats say "Characters with class abilities granting allies access to teamwork feats (such as cavaliers or inquisitors) can select these teamwork feats normally, but allies who are granted these teamwork feats can use the feats only as initiators, not abettors." The way they restricted the feats, your pet gets to betray you, but not vice versa. So Sparky can use you as a human shield, but you don't get to pull Sparky between yourself and the incoming attack.
David Neilson |
Yes, but you are selecting which feats he is taking anyways. Admittedly it is an extra cost, but you do not lose the normal benefits of teamwork feats due to solo tactics.
Also the wizard blast your buddies around the field can work if the rest of the group has evasion, or resistance. You have to remember that feat only specifies you can not use it if you are immune. If you could still potentially take damage it looks like it should work.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Yes, but you are selecting which feats he is taking anyways. Admittedly it is an extra cost, but you do not lose the normal benefits of teamwork feats due to solo tactics.
Also the wizard blast your buddies around the field can work if the rest of the group has evasion, or resistance. You have to remember that feat only specifies you can not use it if you are immune. If you could still potentially take damage it looks like it should work.
You would have to have the Animal Companion spend one of its normal feats to take a teamwork feat you've already taken in order for you to treat it as an abettor, which is pretty prohibitive. It also means the AnC has to completely qualify for the feat on its own, which will require it to pump resources into its Intelligence. All of this just so that you can get the benefits of a feat you already took...
The casting Betrayal feat, Callous Casting, is worthless unless every ally spends one of their normal feats to also take Callous Casting (and at least 1 skill point in Spellcraft). So if you can convince an ally to take a feat out of his build and burn a skill point so you can blow him up in exchange for taking his move action early, it'll work.
David Neilson |
Well for the animal companion you are investing in getting to INT 3, and Power Attack. Which if you are already going for a very melee centered build is not unreasonable anyways.
Callous Casting is admittedly easier for inquistors and cavaliers since they are the ones that the wizard is most likely going to be dropping a spell on. Also being able to get to your enemy and then be set for a full attack can be quite good. I would like it if the attack also let you avoid AoOs but you can not have everything.
All teamwork feats are a bit tough due to needing coordination, and quite frequently a great deal of thinking about the grid. The acceptor and initiator parts of betrayal feats makes it tougher, but I think they can be built around.
That said, when you also figure in that these are more likely to be seen on enemies, they make a good deal of sense. I mean I can easily see a set up for some of these feats. Likely involving a bunch of slightly modified goblin warriors.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Well for the animal companion you are investing in getting to INT 3, and Power Attack. Which if you are already going for a very melee centered build is not unreasonable anyways.
Callous Casting is admittedly easier for inquistors and cavaliers since they are the ones that the wizard is most likely going to be dropping a spell on. Also being able to get to your enemy and then be set for a full attack can be quite good. I would like it if the attack also let you avoid AoOs but you can not have everything.
All teamwork feats are a bit tough due to needing coordination, and quite frequently a great deal of thinking about the grid. The acceptor and initiator parts of betrayal feats makes it tougher, but I think they can be built around.
That said, when you also figure in that these are more likely to be seen on enemies, they make a good deal of sense. I mean I can easily see a set up for some of these feats. Likely involving a bunch of slightly modified goblin warriors.
The issue is that they don't work for any of the characters you expect them to work for. An evil Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier should, based on the flavor text and stated intent of the feats, be able to randomly snag his minions to intercept blows, throw a spear through an ally to drop an opponent, etc. but none of them really do that. Instead, you have to come up with these elaborate and unintuitive scenarios to eke some benefit out of them, like playing a melee Inquisitor who intends to get blown up all the time for dubious benefit. Are we really assuming that the Inquisitor is going to be close enough to engage with an enemy who can be targeted by the same AoE but not in combat already on a regular enough basis to permanently invest a feat into the scenario?
TerminalArtiste |
Izar Talon wrote:What you are suggesting is less of a "Champions of Chaos" book and more of a Pathfinder: Mythos Companion.An eventual Champions of Chaos book that had a section focused on the Old Cults, with some Traits, Feats, spells, and maybe even a few Archetypes for Outer God and Great Old One worshipers, would be very, very cool.
Maybe some Archetypes like a Mad Cleric of Azathoth (who deals with the magic of primal creation and destruction,) Dark Mother Druid of Shub-Niggurath (who tends groves of Dark Young and corrupts woodlands into domains of monsters and aberrations,) Gatekeeper of Yog-Sothoth Wizard (some kind of teleportation or dimensional space/time magic specialist,) Witchcultist of the Black Pharaoh (who sign their names in Nyarlathotep's black book for powers of spreading Chaos, turmoil, and forbidden knowledge) or a Shepherd of Hastur* Bard (who lead troupes/cults of insane actors that travel around putting on plays that drive more people mad, their combined actor/audience flock growing larger with each performance, and specializing in manipulating small hordes of insane followers and inflicting temporary insanity/Confusion/mind-control with their Bardic performances.)
That would be rad.
*Bonus points if the Bard is named Haïta the Shepherd.
Admittedly. Not that these aren't GREAT ideas, though.
David Neilson |
Well the feats as mentioned pretty much work for enemies. A bunch of Trolls with a Troll Cleric with the fire domain who all had this feat would work perfectly. If your Cavalier enemy wants to beat his squire to get an advantage that also works.
It is just using it for player characters presents difficulties. I there is a bit of dissonance in the abilities, but they make sense mechanically. I would guess the thought was that allowing them to function like normal team work feats would lead to friction between players.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Well the feats as mentioned pretty much work for enemies. A bunch of Trolls with a Troll Cleric with the fire domain who all had this feat would work perfectly. If your Cavalier enemy wants to beat his squire to get an advantage that also works.
So, trolls who want to give free xp to the party is an option (a really, really bad one). Again, with the cavalier and squire it only lets the squire beat the cavalier unless the squire also spends a feat, so why do you even have Tactician?
It is just using it for player characters presents difficulties. I there is a bit of dissonance in the abilities, but they make sense mechanically. I would guess the thought was that allowing them to function like normal team work feats would lead to friction between players.
It presents difficulties for PCs or NPCs, and is specifically bad for the classes most likely to use them (if they weren't terrible because of an unnecessary clause).
I'm fairly sure the clause was added by some well-meaning developer to avoid friction, but they're evil freaking feats in a book called Champions of Corruption. It would have been better if they just hadn't wasted the page space printing them if they were going to completely subvert the whole system with a clause that not only undermines the viability of the feats, but completely puts the execution of the mechanics at odds with the stated theme and goal.