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Demon

ecw1701's page

RPG Superstar 2014 Star Voter. 386 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Apocryphile wrote:

If you guys love rolling a bucket full of d6, you should play Shadowrun. ;-)

But yeah, nothing like picking up you little box of 36d6 and dumping the whole lot on the table..

Shadowrun, ah memories. Headaches, and memories.

Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Right, you can dip 3 levels into something else and essentially lose nothing. If you have a lenient GM you can dip 5 with Magical Knack and still essentially lose nothing.

With the recent change to SLAs you could qualify for Mystic Theurge at level 4 and end up with Cleric 2/Wiz 1/MT 10/Wiz 5/Cleric 2 and end up with a caster level of 17 in one class and 19 in the other with Magical Knack.

You can do some crazy things, like:

A Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it! Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter. Not bad at all.

If it were a Dragon Disciple instead you could still go Aasimar Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / EK 10 / DD 8 and (with Esoteric Training and Magical Knack) end up with 9th level spells as a 20th level caster and a BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3 not to mention 11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12.

Long story short, if you are willing to put in the leg work you can nearly completely nullify the penalty for multi-classing as a character.

This is a tiny bit off topic, but since we are talking about powerful characters, getting 3 free caster levels should be part of the conversation.

Star Voter 2014

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Cap. Darling wrote:


And i must admit that i doubt a lot of folks are playing with that part on the inner sea magic. At least i would give any one showing up with it at my table, the sceptic look.

You know, I keep hearing that, but I don't understand it:
ecw1701 wrote:


It's from Inner Sea Magic page 22. Basically you can get +1 bonus to your caster level essentially effortlessly, and +3 to 1 class / +1 to another with some leg work. You gain fame by passing knowledge checks, deeds, or whatever your DM throws at you:

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

Not too bad, and surely someone who has earned the right to become a mythic hero would already be turning heads at their social club. ;)

The game has had fame rules for ages; and if the GM doesn't like it, make them jump through more hoops to earn it. But everyone complained about multi-class casters being a trap, they gave a way around it that you have to earn and people reject it. I really just don't understand.

Star Voter 2014

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I'm running a huge group of 8-10 players through Wrath of the Righteous, and most of the party is evil, two are neutral and only one is good...but he's lawful good.

My benchmark has been simple: Alignment guides behavior and overall world view, it's not a set of manacles. Lawful Good doesn't mean you are a flawless boy scout, and chaotic evil doesn't make you a cackling mad man. It means your character values law, and values goodness. Or values chaos, and values evil. Or neutrality. A chaotic evil character might save a child from a burning building just to see people's faces when they did, or to engender good faith to help them rob them blind later. A lawful good character might let an innocent man who was justly convicted go to the gallows for the sake of the 'greater good'.

As long as there is a logical reason in the plot of the adventure as to why they'd be together without murdering each other, be it duty, money, revenge, or simply for the lulz, then it makes sense.

If he wants to force the issue and play it as awful good, or lawful stupid, then he'll get steamrolled by his evil compatriots...and rightly so.

Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Abraham spalding wrote:

Magus 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10.

Play it around in your head a bit.

This build would be a bit odd since it doesn't advance Magus Arcana or Domains, but if you are using the Guild rules from Inner Sea Magic and went with Magus 6/Cleric 4 you *could* end up with

6th level Magus spells and 9th level Cleric spells:
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

Bare minimum, if you took Esoteric Training and Magical Knack you'd be able to cast level 6 Magus spells as a level 20 caster. At least in pure spell casting power the multi-classing wouldn't cost you anything at all.

And as an aside, since we are talking about Magus'
I posted in another thread about how to build Gandalf as a Magus:

Believe it or not, he works best as a Kensai Magus/Paladin:

At the risk of some thread necro, seeing the Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug got me thinking about this again. It's very late here, so I apologize if what I am proposing ends up being illogical of somehow impossible due to rules I've overlooked.

In looking at ways to approximate what we actually see Gandalf DO, which isn't much casting at all, and beating the Balrog in sword fight, I've come up with:

Samsaran w/Mystic Past Life
Level 20 with 10 mythic tiers: Dual path Archmage and Marshal
Half-Celestial template (if resurrection is self-only) and/or Celestial Blessed (Solar if slaying shot is sword-based rather than ranged).
Eclectic/Esoteric training for +3/+1 Caster Levels.

Build wise either Kensai Magus 20; Or
Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath against Savagery 20; Or
Kensai Magus 6 / Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath against Savagery 14 which would get him level 3 Magus spells, a few cherry picked Samsaran spells, and a truck load of SLAs that would approximate all the things we actually see him doing on screen. It would make for an extremely powerful and capable character who doesn't throw fireballs or cast particularly big spells left and right, but who's very presence...

*Sorry for all the links, but I figured I'd save you some googling.

Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

At the risk of some thread necro, seeing the Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug got me thinking about this again. It's very late here, so I apologize if what I am proposing ends up being illogical of somehow impossible due to rules I've overlooked.

In looking at ways to approximate what we actually see Gandalf DO, which isn't much casting at all, and beating the Balrog in sword fight, I've come up with:

Samsaran w/Mystic Past Life
Level 20 with 10 mythic tiers: Dual path Archmage and Marshal
Half-Celestial template (if resurrection is self-only) and/or Celestial Blessed (Solar if slaying shot is sword-based rather than ranged).
Eclectic/Esoteric training for +3/+1 Caster Levels.

Build wise either Kensai Magus 20; Or
Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath against Savagery 20; Or
Kensai Magus 6 / Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath against Savagery 14 which would get him level 3 Magus spells, a few cherry picked Samsaran spells, and a truck load of SLAs that would approximate all the things we actually see him doing on screen. It would make for an extremely powerful and capable character who doesn't throw fireballs or cast particularly big spells left and right, but who's very presence can still turn the tide of battle.

*Sorry for all the links, but I figured I'd save you some googling.

Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Check out Beastmass: A challenge to Master Min-Maxers which is all about builds that can solo Shoggoth, a Balor, a Pit Fiend, an Ancient Gold Dragon, a Solar Angel, and the Tarrasque, all with just a single round of rest.

And yes, it can be done.

The Vacuum is a wizard build in there that specializes in 1-shotting these things, and there's a few other suggestions about how it might be done.

Star Voter 2014

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Slayer from the Advanced Class Guide Playtest...it's this exact thing.

Star Voter 2014

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Fun fact: The character in question got Dominated last session, and did in fact liquify the sorcerer in a single turn.

Star Voter 2014

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Greetings all,

I have question about Improved Natural Attack and how it stacks with other size affecting things. One of my players is running a Bloodrager for the playtest with the Abyssal Bloodline, which gives him claws that do 1d8 at level 7. He has Aspect of the Gorilla, Demonic Bulk (essentially enlarge person) and a party druid who can cast Strong Jaw on him. The debate is how those effects interact.

Demonic Bulk expressly makes you larger, Strong Jaw and Aspect of the Gorilla do not (although the flavor text says your arms get longer, you do not increase a size category). Pending how you look at this, it can get out of hand quickly.

The issue is whether or not these effects move you along the Improved Natural Attack damage progression, or the Strong Jaw damage progression:

He sees it like:

Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

So that would mean he is attacking at level 8 at
1d8/1d8(start) -> 2d6/2d6(improved) ->3d6(Deamon bulk)->4d6/4d6(Gorilla aspect)->(strong jaw over the chart so double) 8d6/8d6-> 16d6/16d6

Whereas, I see it like:

Looking at it, it seems to me that it comes down to this
I'm *thinking* Improved Natural Attack is a fixed bonus. X monster picks up the feat, improves one step. If it happened to be large, or gargantuan at the time, it goes up. No problem.
The feat takes something made out of wood and makes it stone...seems legit.

However, if you start growing and stacking things on *top* of that, you don't follow the INA progression, you follow the spell/effect's progression. Strong Jaw expressly says this spell makes these attacks work like this, so that would override INA in my mind.

That, and doing 16d6/16d6 EVER, much less at level 8 is flatly stupid. A mythic red dragon doesn't hit that hard!
Therefore:
Claw: 1d8 Base > Demonic Bulk 2d6 > Gorilla 2d8 > Strong Jaw 4d8
Bite: 1d4 Base > Demonic Bulk 1d6 > Strong Jaw 2d6

And curve ball: Does Aspect of Gorilla even stack with Improved Natural Attack?
Gorilla: Your arms become long, flexible, and strong like those of a great ape. Your unarmed damage die type increases by one step, and you gain a +4 competence bonus on combat maneuver checks when making the grapple or reposition combat maneuver.

I appreciate your thought, or even if you can direct me towards this has been officially addressed before, thanks!

Star Voter 2014

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We all beat the page on our initiative rolls and caught it flat-footed.

Star Voter 2014

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Ashanderai wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I'm hoping not one iconic is a dwarf, gnome or halfling because those races are completely ridiculous. And I'd like to see an elf that wasn't shark-attack, but with black eyes that's gonna be hard...
I actually want to see a female dwarf iconic. We have never seen one of those.

It's already been explained why there are no Dwarven women:

Gimli: It's true you don't see many dwarf women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for dwarf men.
Aragorn: [whispering] It's the beards.
Gimli: And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no dwarf women, and that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground!
[Eowyn laughs]
Gimli: Which is, of course, ridiculous.

Star Voter 2014

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The seasons 'officially' change on the Equinox and Solstices.

Since that's what would have been observable in the world even if you didn't have a calendar.

More importantly, we are apparently starting to crack up since we are debating the Gregorian calendar system to help pass the time now.

So let me try and get this back slightly on the rails:
For the playtest are you all planning on starting new campaigns, or rotating characters into existing ones? I think I'm going to either let my characters temporarily reroll and proceed with our current campaign, and/or let them pick up Leadership for free during the playtest.

What are you all planning to do?

Star Voter 2014

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Well, since I'm living this vs just posting about it, let me tell you what happened.

We kicked off Wrath today, after finishing the first two parts of RotRL:
I had their god appear to them and warn them that the forces of evil in the Worldwound thought everyone was distracted battling Karzoug, and were preparing to strike, so it was up to the heroes to defend the world on two fronts.

I had them enter Kenabre as strangers (where word had spread about them in Magnimar). When the demon attack hit, rather than do it as a flashback as the AP suggested, I had them be in the town and in the middle of the fight. They are level 7, but I hit them with a CR 17 demon with the express purpose of having them all get killed so that Terendeliv would "save" them, and they'd end up unconscious in the hole like the AP starts.

Of course, my Bard--who has astonishingly good luck--tries charm monster on it and I roll a 1 on the save, so I had them get wiped out in an explosion when Terendeliv goes down fighting Khorramzadeh. They woke up in the hole at 0 hit points with only the Barb with Die Hard still conscious, and their NPC healer missing. He woke the cleric with a potion of Cure Moderate, and I had his channel energy awaken the 3 NPCs who are supposed to be down there with them.

Long story short, even though the players are aware we're running two APs dropping in some narrative threads to connect them has helped a lot.
Dropping them out of their element and beat within an inch of their lives helped set the right tone. I'll use that table from the Beastiary 4 to buff the encounters to CR 10 or so, since I want them to stay scared, and this is a big group.

I'm also going to have newly resurrected and now all-demon Nualia and Xanesha make a comeback to grief them a bit later to strengthen the tie, and I'll probably have some demons show up on the way to Xin-Shalast to give them a more cohesive experience. No matter what, at least conceptually it works.

Star Voter 2014

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Are wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:

but I would still like to have *the choice* to do more, which right now doesn't really exist.

That's only if you require published adventures/campaigns to do more. If you create your own content, you can continue as far as you and your players are willing to go. For instance, I've both heard of and read journals of 3.5 campaigns that have had the PCs reaching levels of 50+.

I have a Marvel Super Heroes game where the players are battling an invasion Cyber-Sith invasion with Borg/Dalek hybrid troops. The last thing that happened was them rescuing Yoda and Sarek of the Green Jedi Corps from Darth Sinestro. So, I know a thing or two about homebrew.

There are several advantages of APs: Professionally produced maps, art, lore, everything. And even I, the DM, can be surprised by the narrative unfolds, as well as how the players react to it.

Star Voter 2014

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Page 289 in the Beastiary 4 has a 'monsters statistics by CR' table that is exactly what we were talking about earlier. I just got my hands on it today, and I think it's all I need to be able to adjust these encounters. Once I have a better handle on the templates, especially the mythic one.

Ameiko isn't involved in Runelords at all after you save her, so your timeline would work.

I'm with you Matt...we play the long game. And hey, my players really may be ready to retire after RotRL / Wrath...but I would still like to have *the choice* to do more, which right now doesn't really exist.

And Tangent...another Night Below vet? Not too many of us still floating around, I don't think!

Star Voter 2014

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Most people don't allow 3rd party feats in their games. However, the recent changes to SLAs make it possible to enter MT as early as level 4, and the inclusion of Eclectic/Esoteric Training makes it possible to still end up with double 9 casting.

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

So a Cleric 2/Wiz 1/MT 10/Cleric 4/Wiz 3 (or some other combination) would be a 17/17th level caster at 20 that casts as a 17/19th level caster. In fact they'd still get 9th level casting in one class at 17 and the other at 20, pending how they played it.

So you really don't need to stray any further than Inner Sea Magic to get it done.

Star Voter 2014

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This guide will help you a lot, especially section two.

Star Voter 2014

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Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
Thomas, A wrote:

i know right....

swashbuckler alone would drive us all nuts im sure. in fact i would put money on a swashbuckler/sorcerer will be the frist
I will take that and raise you one swashbuckler/bloodrager

Is that like Cap'n Jack Sparrow who becomes the Hulk?

And wouldn't that just be the grey Hulk? ;)

Star Voter 2014

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Well, couple of things.

First, Thor is the God of Thunder; *he* controls the weather, Mjolnir is just his focus for doing so.

He also shape shifts / polymorphs into Dr. Donald Blake, a magical effect.

He enrages (like a barbarian), and is essentially physically invulnerable.

Here is a pretty extensive list of powers Thor has been seen to do in his 50+ years of comic appearances.

I definitely think all of that is best approximated by Angel-Blooded Aasimar (Angelkin) Barbarian (Armored Hulk) 2 Oracle 4 Rage Prophet 6.

Star Voter 2014

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I actually came across a quote from James Jacobs in an old thread about whether or not Blink and Displacement stack with one another that I think is relevant here. Including a bit more of the block quote for context (emphasis mine):

James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

To clarify: I didn't read your edit as a direct quote from Mr. Jacobs.

That being said, I am utterly aghast that he would rule the spell as such. I thought one of the intention of Pathfinder was to reduce the god-like status of arcane spellcasters compared to melee. Making them nearly untouchable as low as level 5 with the application of only two defensive spells is not right.

Nerfing Great Cleave, without even any real explanation why the images would not count as separate adjacent targets for the purpose of cleaving them, is beyond my comprehension.

Damn right I won't be ruling it that way. It's unbelievably wrong.

Wow. "Utterly aghast" seems like a pretty strong reaction. "Nearly untouchable" and "god-like" are also great examples of internet overreaction.

First: If you think it's so wrong that it insults and harrows you to the core of everything you know... don't listen to me. Run the spell the way you want.

Personally, I probably WOULD allow cleave/great cleave to take out mirror images, but folks didn't ask me how I would run things. They asked me for an interpretation of the rules as written, which, in my opinion, is a TERRIBLE way to slave yourself to the game. If you as the GM can't adjust the rules as you wish to make the game more fun for you and your players' play style, you might as well just be playing an MMORPG.

Star Voter 2014

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They way I look at it is it's a game, so the player's experience is the most important thing. If I only want to adhere to a strict rule set, I can go do some HTML programming. I've had mobs hit because the story necessitated they hit, just like I've had them miss because the story necessitated they miss. I've had a heroic attack that should have left the BBEG with 5 hit points kill him instead, and I've had BBEGs mysteriously come back from the dead later because the players hatred of them enhanced their experience.

If they are enjoying the thrill of victory as well as the occasional agony of defeat, you're doing it right. If they keep showing up to sessions, and ideally occasionally ask to play more often, you're doing it right.

Star Voter 2014

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Thank you for keeping us in the loop.
And I reiterate my previous point that while the delay is unfortunate, I'm sure the playtest will be awesome when it arrives.
A late product is only late until it arrives; a bad product is bad forever.
Have a safe and enjoyable trip!

Star Voter 2014

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I wanted to start a mythic campaign *this* weekend :(

Star Voter 2014

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AM BARBARIAN wrote:

SPELL NOT NEED SAVE. BARBARIAN FEEL NOT FEAR.

RIGHT NOW, ALL SITE, ALL PIZAO, BE THEY CASTYS, MARTIALS, GISH, BUFFERS, DEBUFFERS, NPC CLASSES, EVERYTHING. ALL AM WORKING TOGETHER TO DESTROY END OF WORLD! ALL WORK TOGETHER AM STOPPING STUPID GOD OF DECAY!

BARBARIAN AM WINNER OF MANY ARGUMENTS. TODAY, BARBARIAN NOT WINNER ALONE.

IN ARGUMENT OF EVERYONE VERSUS C-M DESTRUCITY, AM TAKING EVERYONE TO WIN. AM ALL CHARACTERS, EVERYWHERE WORKING IN TEAM TO OVERCOME CHALLENGE. CHALLENGE LIKE C-M DESTRUCITY GOD. AM NOT CASTYS, MARTIALS, ETC. AM ONLY PCS AND THINGS PCS AM SMASH.

DESTRUCITY AM THING PCS AM SMASH.

GOD AM FALL TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE. GOD AM FALL TO SOD. GOD AM FALL TO BUFFING AND DEBUFFING AND MIND-BLANKET INVISIBILITY. PIZAO AM SUNDER GOD, AM CASTYFY GOD, AM OBLITERATE GOD.

ARGUMENT AM OVER. EVERYONE AM WINNER.

RAGELANCEPOUNCE.

And thus the internet in general and forums in particular is revealed:

Save vs Reason + Cooperation...DC 250.

Star Voter 2014

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stringburka wrote:
He doesn't have a dire bat. He has a synthesist that the barbarian THINKS is a bat.

And in this, I have discovered how Casty survives AM BARBARIAN:

make him think you are a batty bat.


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