Takasi's page

In many campaigns there is no 'starting point' of a specific 'adventure'. The DM creates a world with locations and independent events and the PCs explore them freely. There is no expected reaction from the PCs, and events aren't created for the purpose of driving the PCs to respond. Events are created because they make sense in the world, not because they make a good story or setup an interesting challenge.

You do not have to sit back and arbitrarily roll dice to generate this world. The difference in narrative games is that a 'lazy megalomaniac' is trying to force a group to trigger event x to ensure event y.

And you can certainly have adventures without contrived situations. Contrivance is obvious and forceful. Triggering a major NPCs death and riots on the defeat of a minor NPC is contrived. Adventures can have independent timelines and include events and locations that do not need implied party reactions to work properly.

So, what I'm saying with all of this is, while we've chosen not to assert ownership of the trademark, we think we can effectively prevent anyone else from doing so, so that should effectively keep it an open term.

Excellent news!

Up until PF 4, there was a TM symbol after the words Adventure Path in the title. Starting with PF 5 (in January) Paizo removed it.

Now the question is...will Wizards try to trademark the term?

Campaigns take a lot longer to commit to, in most cases, than watching a Jaws or Alien.

I can understand someone doing a repeat of a one shot, 4 hour RPGA mod. I can understand a module. I can even understand a couple of modules. How far did you get into AoW? What I can't understand is the preference of this style over playing something new. You're living vicariously through someone else's enjoyment. It's just...strange to me. Especially to commit yourself for so many hundreds of hours. [Edit: Let me rephrase that. It's not that strange, because that's partially the fun of being a DM. But what you're describing is the worst of both worlds. You're not the DM, but you're also not the player. You're an NPC! It sounds like something I might do if I wanted to feel like a DM but didn't have the time, but it doesn't sound better, to me, than being a player or being a DM.)

And while you would rather talk about 'the' stories, I would rather talk about the set and setting behind the stories others will produce. (And on a detailed scale much of the set and setting of Golarion can only be seen in modules, not 'setting' books. The same applies to other settings, like Eb...well, let's not go there...)

I haven't seen any comments on the difference between the replay value in site based adventures, like the original Greyhawk modules, vs event based linear modules, like Dragonlance. From my experience, few players go through the motions of the original Dragonlance modules after they've read the novels. They may do it, but it certainly doesn't seem to be preferred.

Well... with each adventure path we put out... that possibility becomes less and less likely.

I don't understand why. If people are subscribing to Pathfinder and reading them instead of playing them then they're getting spoilers. The more narrative and linear the paths are, the more they focus on revealing twists and an interesting story, then the spoilers have an even greater impact on future play.

Subscribers can read these modules faster than DMs can run them. I don't see how the number of APs matters; if subscribers follow your lead and read them then those are players who are spoiled.

I have collected a lot of modules (especially the GameMastery ones), but personally I don't read them unless I'm thinking of using them. And I have chatted with a few DMs who are NOT reading their AP subscriptions until they plan to run them, and I think they couldn't care less how well the module actually reads but instead how it plays.

In that case... my GMing training kicks in. Just as the NPCs I portray in the game don't know everything I know about the world and the PCs... my characters don't know everything about the adventure I'm playing.

That's a huge difference in opinion then. I would much rather play in a campaign with no story on the DM's part, where I build a backstory and explore the world than play in an intricate, linear plot where I, as a player, know the outcome.

Playstyle makes a big difference. If your group's agenda leans heavily on gamism, like if the focus is creating an interesting stat build, or simply exploring a different personality or backstory, then I can understand. But if it's a murder mystery I have no interest in going through the motions again. I would prefer that the DM alter the story, since its unraveling is a big part of narrative play.

I'm a little surprised Paizo would have to play in games with DMs who have to run premade modules you've already read. I would have guessed that you have plenty of writers around the office who could playtest new ideas that would become new material in the future. And I have trouble relating to anyone who would prefer replaying a full on adventure path when they already know the entire plot for the campaign from 1st to whatever high level you end at.

The RPGA, for example, is a necessary evil for pick up games at cons, but I would hate it if that was all I had to play, especially if I had already played in the modules. Some people would find satisfaction with this, but my standards are different.

Role playing is interactive, and is different from watching a movie or even playing a video game because you can improvise and have a lot of freedom to explore characters, settings and events. Unlike a video game, you can quickly add a new building, or character, or event. I personally wouldn't want to limit myself, as a player, to a campaign when I've essentially already explored the 'plot' of what's happening.

On the topic of what the OP (me) considers 'railroading': event based modules that require a specific outcome from previous events in order for them to make sense is a railroad. (In the case of putting in riots or harsh weather, it's a railroad when subsequent encounters are entirely dependent on specific actions that the previous events required.) You can present goals and encounters that are site based, where exploration of one area does not require another. This is less restrictive. It may not make the greatest story in the world, but it makes for more enjoyable play and IMO a better opportunity for a memorable story from the player's perspective.

And to reiterate again, there are a lot of playstyles out there.

Some campaigns are based on modules that use a very linear series of events.

Some campaigns tolerate players who already know that event x will trigger event y.

Other campaigns don't want either. There are some very good parts of the APs and the standalone modules that support a variety of playstyles. This thread is for DMs who aren't always looking for a linear story. DMs who don't always want a totally cohesive series of (unfortunate) events. DMs who like it when gameplay is a priority. We are the Pathlosers.

I think DMs, knowing the trade, know how to help the game flow and coax the right information from the right situations.

In some campaigns there is no 'right or wrong' roleplaying. There is no 'expected' outcome.

This reminds me of a quote from the simulationist article, where I'm sure a DM could get the players back on the railroad track:

"The PCs will walk around and look in different places, not find anything special, and be bored. Indeed, if the players are conditioned to expect a prepared adventure, this can be just what happens. The players search around for hints about what the GM wants them to do, and fail to find it. But by adjusting play, a different dynamic emerges.

In Simulationist play, the onus is more on the players to drive play. Without contrived situations to force the PCs into action, the PCs need to be more pro-active. They need to be rebellious, in the sense that faced with a stable status quo, they will take risks to upset that status quo. In GM-driven adventures, there is an unusual event (a melodramatic hook) which spurs the PCs to action. But in Simulationism, there will not usually be such unusual events. Without such hooks, the PCs need to seek out conflict. "

The transition between each of the Runelords modules is a good example of modular independence. There are even some encounters in Crimson Throne that are very independent of one another. A few threads (like 'The Runelords aren't doing a lot of Rising') criticized this because it didn't make a very compelling story. In actual play I'm having a great time with it.

A lot of material in Paizo adventures are very useful for Simulationist play (and some of it isn't). I'm really not asking for more or less because to be honest the amount of support seems to differ from module to module and even encounter to encounter. This thread is for those who enjoy the Simulationist benefits to express themselves.

Would folk be more interested in a book all about the Acadamae? Or a book that's about wizard schools in general and provides several examples, in which case a sizable chapter would be about the Acadamae?

I want both, but if I could only have one I'd like a book just about the Acadamae. How soon can you produce it? :)

(Have you considered some type of Pathfinder: Open Design?)

Love the book guy.

I'm not your guy, buddy!

I just don't like being a player nearly as much as I like DMing and if I am never a player in a D&D game again, that would be fine with me.

But...you've been a player at some point, right?

I'm not saying that I've never met a gamer who prefers being a DMing over playing. However, at one point or another, they've passed the screen to another gamer. Perhaps to give someone else a turn, or (for me) to gain experience on the other side of the screen. DMs who also play, IMO, can relate better to players.

And in simulationist games, it's actually better, IMO, to have the more outgoing, organized and enthusiastic gamer to play rather than DM. There is an excellent article here that helps explains why.

However, if you are going to have someone else at the table give DMing a shot, Pathfinder and narrative play makes it easier for them to do so. If players 'go with the flow' and the DM has the story all lined up for him then his job is easier. The caveat though is that if the previous-DM-now-turned-player buys PF just to read the 'story over gameplay' then he'll already know the plot. IMO, this decreases the value of premade material.

I would hate to be someone who has subscribed to Pathfinder to read the plot, finally finds a gaming group but has to bow out because they're running an AP he's familiar with.

I'm not sure Charles. Evil is as evil does, and right as the AP starts there's regicide and other horrific actions.

The best way to 'conceal' the Queen as the true villain is to run some adventures before the AP events occur and throw in some red herrings from the other Houses. But personally, once it hits the fan I want the PCs to have a villain they hate and they don't kill in one or two sessions after they meet her.

And who really cares if everyone suspects the gold-digger killed her husband? The question is 'now what?' Nobody knows just how evil she is, and what she's planning (if anything). You can still have courtly intrigue and mysteries despite knowing that the Queen is 'evil'.

Over at OnlineDnD.com, we're doing a playtest of the Alpha rules. I created my own version of Ezren, and a few items caught my eye.

The first thing is Hand of the Apprentice. Humans get a free weapon proficiency, so he took bastard sword. (I couldn't figure out if you can use that ability on two handed weapons, so I took that just to be safe.) So I have a mage who, at will, can do +5 to hit with 1d10+5 at range 30 with no cover or melee penalties. That's very impressive.

The next thing that received my attention was the Arcane Bond. This give Ezren the equivalent of Craft Magical Arms and Armor for his bastard sword, which normally isn't available until 5th level.

I need to clarify this sentence: "A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard knows, just as if the wizard had cast it." It doesn't say whether this is restricted to the wizard, or if someone else can pick up the weapon and cast the spell. Also, it's any spell in his spellbook, so this effectively gives him an extra spontaneous spell. Again, pretty potent.

I'm also concerned about the spell like abilities. They do not require components or have an XP cost, so at 18th Ezren will be casting free wishes every day.

Has anyone else worked on retooling the iconics? How do they look?

Takasi>

What would you say are your top three published adventures for the sandbox style you are looking for?

I gave a few examples above that show that even within a module some encounters are more linear than others.

For full modules, I'm currently having a lot of fun running a campaign using Mysteries of the Moonsea, Ruins of Adventure and Sons of Gruumsh.

One of my all time favorites is the original Isle of Dread. I like using the Dungeon Crawl Classics modules. In Eberron I liked the format for the Explorer's Handbook and the Secrets of Xen'drik, they seem very useful even though I haven't had an opportunity to use them yet.

For the past couple of years I've been playing in the APs primarily and the RPGA. So don't get me wrong; we've been happily 'choo-choo'ing along. I'm getting better at improv in 3.5 though and my players are wanting more freedom, so I felt it was time to sound off for Pathlosers! :)

I respectfully disagree here. The model that Paizo seem to be using with the Pathfinder products is to sell to the long-term DM's out there. They are the ones that buy most of the D&D products. They are the ones that read these products and obssess about them and dissect them on the messageboards.

I'm a player and a DM. And I've never met a DM who didn't also wish to be a player at some point.

I keep thousands of books I leaf through. I keep them as reference material. I really don't care if they are good reads, because I'm only really going to read them if I run them, because I know that if I read them thoroughly I'm spoiling the enjoyment of possibly playing in them at some point in the future.

This is what I fear: having story as a higher priority over gameplay encourages potential players to reading spoilers, doubly decreasing the gameplay value.

When AP 1 came out, I was looking for a module with a big reoccuring villain and Paizo eventually delivered with AP 2. I'm also keeping my fingers crossed for AP 4. It should come out around the time players have had a chance to play 4E and may be deciding to 'switch back'.

Not to threadjack Takasi

I think it's too late for that. James Jacobs WotC comments have 'derailed' the conversation entirely.

I would like to add that I would be in that classroom of people. I come to play adventures, not just to read them. And I fear that the designers do not share this sentiment, as it seems like most of them don't even playtest their own games.

I wouldn't really enjoy running some of the APs for people who have already read them. The more narrative the module, the less useful it would be, IMO, in that scenario. If a lot of people are reading and collecting these APs then it could become a liability, forcing DMs like me to skip over them because so many people know 'the plot' that it becomes useless. If I had a choice between playing in an AP I've already read and playing in someone's campaign where I didn't know the story, it would be incredibly difficult to choose the former over the latter.

Compare how many people rerun the Dragonlance modules vs the Greyhawk classics. While it's fun to have a shared experience and a 'campaign in a box', I fear that this format, if it focuses too heavily on story-driven triggered event-based encounters, could begin to lose the appeal of the original APs.

With that said, I was able to pick up the Fortress of the Yuan-Ti and very easily drop it into a Sword Coast campaign; it was incredibly easy to adapt the adventure. I was told long ago that good modules need to be flexible, and that's something you don't see often in railroads.

I think I see the difference in our groups now - your group defines Railoading as the story taking over and saying 'these events happen' which frankly the only time this happens is the encounter with blackjack. the riots, while unavoidable, have nothing to do with the PCs or their choices. The riots aren't railroading.. they're just like the fact that magic item shops - people assume that they have whatever they want, yet if they had that much stock they would surely go out of business.

That's a good example. In some campaigns I let players buy whatever they want, and in others I decide what's there (through rolling or logic). Neither one is good or bad, they're just different styles of play.

The riots have everything to do with player choices. It's an event, something that gets up in their face and requires that they deal with it. Usually the choice has to do with their character, so rarely can they decide to do 'nothing'.

Weather is another good example. Some modules and DMs will create weather conditions for story purposes. That is a form of 'railroading', especially if the reason is to get the players to do something. ('The players cannot leave the Torr; there is a great and powerful hurricane outside!')

My Group on the other hand, feels that time limits in Hollow much more railroady because they couldn't prepare as they normally would for a hunt, or they would risk having more townsfolk dieing.

The difference to me is that it's very easy to present these encounters to players regardless of any timelines.

A simulationist can get a lot out of modules that they'll have trouble finding in even the most detailed campaign setting. Interesting locations, encounters and even events are excellent resources for any DM, but if they can only be triggered under very specific assumptions and set about a series of future events that obligate characters to follow then they lose their value, IMO.

And for narrative DMs, great stories usually come from the players and their characters, not just from the minds of the authors of modules and the will of NPCs. Some modules (and DMs) tend to forget who the story is really about.

Looser...Pathlooser...I like the sound of that too, thanks Watcher!

Don't get me wrong, for some campaigns my players and I are looking for a very tight story. I'd love an AP where the BBEG is in your face from day one, and every encounter is tied to a primary metaplot.

Can everyone agree that the existing APs (and adventures within them) have a varying degree of cohesiveness?

Shackled City has a lot of adventures that are only loosely tied together. From running Age of Worms, I would go as far as to say that no matter what the heroes do in any given adventure it really has no impact on how the rest of the adventures are written.

In fact, for Runelords I've TPK'd my characters in almost every adventure, and just picked up where the last one left off. When the characters...

Crimson Throne is looking more like Savage Tide in its interdependency. James Jacobs, you mentioned AP4, how about AP3? I'm guessing it involves a long journey, which (like Savage Tide) would probably often require a point X to occur in order for point Y to make sense?

I think it's great to take the same philosophy that is often used between adventures and apply them between encounters. And this is being done already (even in Pathfinder). This thread is for those who like it to sound off and revel in loosing and losing themselves along the path.

Pathlosers (and Pathloosers) unite!

But where my players have had to go with things 'just because' in Hollow, in Edge of Anarchy they could do anything that they want to and I had enough information to work with.

In Hollow's Last Hope, there are a set of site based encounters that a DM can drag and drop easily into pretty much any campaign. They are just sitting around waiting for the players to choose whether they want to find them or not.

In Edge of Anarchy, the riots, the chase with Trinia and the scene with Blackjack are all very narrative and force their way into the PCs lives. They are walls that almost require specific actions from anyone who plays in character.

That is the key difference IMO. Adventures that involve attention hogging events are good reads but they overshadow other choices and paths players want to follow. They can't simply be added into the background; they tend to force their way onto the center stage in a PC's life.

There's a forum for movies, a forum for television and even a forum for comics. Can we please have a forum for video/PC games?

I am seeing a certain pattern in posts regarding Paizo's AP design philoseophy so I wanted to start a new thread.

Of course... if you have players who HATE being railroaded almost as much as they HATE the mere concept that they MIGHT be railroaded... you probably shouldn't be running pre-made adventures for them anyway.

Dungeons are usually in modules, not 'big fat campaign settings', and yet they don't need to be presented as 'railroads' at all. The type of assumed railroading James Jacobs frequently mentions on the boards IMO applies primarily to event based encounters. Site based encounters rarely feel like a railroad. For example, I found much more sandbox value in encounters written in Hollow's Last Hope and Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale than many of the encounters in modules like Edge of Anarchy and the Skinsaw Murders.

If we wanted pretty art and a good story we could pick up a novel and some collectible trading cards (or combine them together and watch a movie). It sometimes feels like Paizo is treating gamers looking for simulationism as if we're red headed step children.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who will reply in support of more event based, cohesive, linear modules for groups that just 'go with the flow'. I'm guessing these types of gamers gravitate towards Paizo because of this style. However, if you play in campaigns where players choose RPGS for their freedom of exploration, and you're looking for site (or organization) based encounters to salvage from the adventure paths and standalone modules, please use this thread to make your voice heard too. If there are only a few of us out then we could use the solidarity.

Pathlosers, sound off!

Thanks James Jacobs!

So it sounds like...

With the Guie to Korvosa and the primarily urban setting in Curse of the Crimson Throne (for the first ten levels 'There is no world outside the walls of Korvosa'), I was very much hoping to use Paizo's material to create a narrative campaign filled with intrigue.

I was hoping for encounters that:

1.) Do not need to be played in an exact linear order
2.) Increase or decrease power in various organizations
3.) Do not need to end in violence
4.) Are more than 'dungeon crawls in an urban backdrop'

These encounters can paint an interesting story, and the end result is a plot that is more adventure module than setting sourcebook.

Edge of Anarchy did a good job with #1 and #3, but IMO are somewhat lacking on #2 and #4. I don't have PF8 yet, but I'm reading that it is more 'cohesive', which I'm guessing means it's a linear plot that demands PC attention.

Granted, I'm already running Crimson Throne unconventionally, so the purpose of this thread isn't to simply tell Paizo how disappointed (and please) I am. I'm looking for help, and I'm also presenting my methods of making the game what I want it to be.

The first issue is the Guide to Korvosa. It is missing a few key features that make it a good reference source: lists. If my PCs ask 'Where's a good place to buy a weapon?' or 'Where do we want to stay for the night?', it's tough to answer these questions without reading through the entire book, making notes and having a good memory.

I've broken down all of the locations by purpose and included proper names if they were presented. I may have missed a few, and unfortunately there's no way to go back and edit this list so I may report it as a revision in the future:

Antiquities
- Jeggare Museum, Heights, Mercival Jeggare (female human)

Banking
- Gemshare Jewelry, Midland
- Bank of Abadar, North Point, Darb Tuttle (male human)

Commerce
- Gold Market (everything), Midland, Sagitar Tiguan
- High Bridge Haberdashery (clothing), Midland
- Kep's (fishing), Midland, Kep (male human)
- Fair-Fished Baitshop (fishing), Midland
- Pinking Shears (barbershop), Midland, Hooktooth (male half-orc)
- Smoked Foods (groceries), Midland
- Time Stop (clocks), Midland
- Pestico's Dolls and Figurines (toys), Midland
- Reefclaw Run Market (seafood), Old Korvosa
- Hessim, Newby and Sage Paint Manufactory, Old Korvosa
- Orkatto's Feathers and Furs (pets), South Shore, Orkatto (old male halfling)
- Green Market (everything), South Shore, Zeeva Foxglove

Communication
- Three Rings Tavern, North Point, Theandra Darklight (female human pathfinder)

Companionship
- Eel's End, Old Korvosa, Devargo Barvasi (male human)

Criminal Purposes
- Dock Trade, North Point
- Eel's End, Old Korvosa, Devargo Barvasi (male human)

Dining
- Shoreline Drinkhall, East Shore
- Jittery Quill, Heights
- Crested Falcon, Heights
- Overlook, Heights, Asa Hemrich (male human)
- Bailer's Retreat, Midland
- Aram's Crown, Midland
- Creaky Hammock, Midland, Destin Smish (male human)
- Three Rings Tavern, North Point, Theandra Darklight (female human pathfinder)
- Sticky Mermaid, Old Korvosa,
- Jeggare's Jug, Old Korvosa
- Eel's End, Old Korvosa, Devargo Barvasi (male human)
- The Travelling Man, Old Korvosa
- Jade Circle, South Shore
- Twitchers, Shingles, Ramthos (male human)

Education
- Acadamae
- Theumanexus College, East Shore, Tempest Geezlebottle (gnome wizard)
- Great Tower, Heights, Endrin Military Academy for Sable Company
- University of Korvosa, Heights
- Orisini Academy, Old Korvosa, Denargo (male human)
- Endrin's Military Academy, Old Korvosa

Employment
- Great Tower, Heights, Sable Company
- Citadel Volshynek, Midland, Korvosan Guard
- Copper Beater Hall, Old Korvosa
- Ironworks, Old Korvosa

Entertainment
- Marbledome, Heights, Touran Palastus (male human)
- Kendall Amphitheater, Heights
- Eel's End, Old Korvosa, Devargo Barvasi (male human)
- Exemplary Execrables, Old Korvosa, Pilts Swastel (male human)
- Bard's End, South Shore

Exotic Services
- Doom and Gloom (fortune telling), Midland

Healing
- Grand Cathedral of Pharasma, Gray, Bishop Keppira d'Bear (female human cleric)
- Temple of Sarenrae, Heights

Legal Aid
- Great Tower, Heights, Sable Company
- Citadel Volshynek, Midland, Korvosan Guard
- Five Corners Ward, North Point
- Longacre Building, North Point (execution)
- City Hall, North Point

Magic Items
- Acadamae
- Theumanexus College, East Shore, Tempest Geezlebottle (gnome wizard)
- Great Tower (weapons), Heights, Bottom Floor Armory
- Crested Falcon (potions), Heights
- Gold Market (everything), Midland, Sagitar Tiguan
- Hedge Wizardry, Midland, Phaeton Skoda (female human)
- Slicing Dicers (weapons), Midland
- Trapper's Hole (weapons), Midland, Jope Chanstmo (male human), Sable Company
- Pestico's Dolls and Figurines (constructs), Midland

Pilgrimage Destinations
- Eodred's Square, Midland

Places to Stay
- Leftover's, East Shore, Portenus Gaskelinni (one armed retired human soldier)
- Upslope House, Heights
- Frisky Unicorn, Heights
- Wise Dragon Inn, Heights
- Tenna's, Heights
- Laughing Wave Inn, North Point
- Whitecaps, North Point
- Posh and Turtle, North Point, Thaviun Rigulus (male human wizard),
- Eel's End, Old Korvosa, Devargo Barvasi (male human)
- Bard's End, South Shore

Research
- Acadamae
- Theumanexus College, East Shore, Tempest Geezlebottle (gnome wizard)
- Gilded Orrery, Heights, Gasta Weagra (female human)
- Jeggare Museum, Heights, Mercival Jeggare
- University of Korvosa, Heights
- Bookmaker, Midland, Costa Serimus (male human)
- Basha's, Midland, Basha (male human)
- Hedge Wizardry, Midland, Phaeton Skoda (female human)
- Pestico's Dolls and Figurines (constructs), Midland
- Three Rings Tavern, North Point, Theandra Darklight (female human pathfinder)

Spellcasting
- Acadamae
- Theumanexus College, East Shore, Tempest Geezlebottle (gnome wizard)
- Crested Falcon, Heights
- Hedge Wizardry, Midland, Phaeton Skoda (female human)
- Pestico's Dolls and Figurines (constructs), Midland
- Posh and Turtle, North Point, Thaviun Rigulus (male human wizard),

Transportation
- Horse Shop, East Shore
- Galloping Ghost, Midland, Patch

Worship
- Grand Cathedral of Pharasma, Gray, Bishop Keppira d'Bear (female human cleric)
- Temple of Asmodeus, Heights
- Temple of Sarenrae, Heights
- Bank of Abadar, North Point
- Sanctuary of Shelyn, North Point
- Temple of Aroden, Old Korvosa
- Pantheon of Many, South Shore

In addition to the locations, I also listed all of the organizations involved:

Government
- Arbiters
- Commandant of the Sable Company
- Field Marshal of the Korvosan Guard
- Lictor of the Order of the Nail
- Magistrates (Commerce, Expenditures, Regulation)
- Monarch
- Seneschal
- Peerage Review

Military
- Korvosan Guard
- Order of the Nail
- Sable Company

Prominent Families
- Arabasti
- Arkona
- Bromathan
- Endrin
- Jeggare
- Leroung
- Ornelos
- Porphyria
- Zenderholm

Criminal
- Cerulean Society
- Catsdew Lofties
- Dusters
- Rat's Teat
- Scarzni

Secret
- Death Cultists
- Urgathoa Clerics
- Darklight Sisterhood
- Ironsoots
- Red Mantis

For my campaign, I want the majority of the players to belong to one or two Houses. Here are all of the houses listed in the Guide, along with some notes on what they do:

Prominent Families
- Arabasti: Monarchy, Mercantile
- *Arkona: Jailers, Landlords, Drugs, Fort (Old) Korvosa
- Bromathan: Military, Sarenrae, Guard
- Endrin: Military, Sable Company, Shoreline Drinkhall
- *Jeggare: Docks, Finance, Museum, Marbledome
- *Leroung: University, Imported Otyoughs, Hired Halfling Sailors
- *Ornelos: Acadamae, Gilded Orrery, Tenna's (manor in Heights at Citadel Crest)
- Porphyria: Mercantile (outcast)
- *Zenderholm: Government
- Kroft: Minor Military House
- Fordyce: Breaching Festival Winnings
- Galdur: Theumaxus College (outcast)
- Viamio: (outcast)
- Thrune: Cheliax (outcast)
- Peltherianon: Impoverished House

(* Peerage Review Member)

In my camppaign, I am requiring the majority of the PCs to be noble scions. They need to pick from the following houses:

PC Houses
- Jeggare
- Leroung
- Zenderholm

I asked James Jacobs last night in chat, and he said he would check the boards and possibly reply due to spoilers. What happens to these houses, if anything, during the Adventure Path? Can you give us a brief overview of how all of the Houses may change?

I have also compiled a list of all of the plot hooks given in the Guide. The biggest problem I have with all of them is they don't seem to have any impact on any of the Houses. What I'd like to do is tie the majority of properties listed above to each of the Houses listed above. I also plan to have the party members start out at Orisini's, hobnobbing with all of the nobles. By exploring the city before the AP starts and finishing the problems listed below, the PCs will gain prestige amongst the other Houses.

I listed the positive influences, but I could use help explaining the extent and reasoning, as well as possible negative influences from these (or new) hooks.

I want my players to be spoiled, to be fat and happy and successful before all hell breaks lose. That's what, IMO, made Game of Thrones such a good story. Throwing the group immediately into this AP is great for a traditional everyman hero saves the day scenario, but it's not very good for courtly intrigue, IMO.

Thanks for your help Corey!

I just wanted to confirm, Order 900063 should ship out today or tomorrow right? It's not waiting for any preorders?

Please ship all of my sidecart items that are available to ship now:

• Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited (OGL)
Paizo Publishing, LLC
• Almuric (Trade Paperback)
• Lord of the Spiders (aka Blades of Mars) (Trade Paperback)
• Pathfinder #8—Curse of the Crimson Throne Chapter 2: "Seven Days to the Grave" (OGL) Print Edition
• GameMastery Module W2: River into Darkness (OGL) Print Edition
• GameMastery Module D3: The Demon Within (OGL) Print Edition

Please ship my Pathfinder Chronicles sub (Gazetteer) as its own separate shipment.

If D3 hasn't arrived yet, then put that in with the Gazetteer. I would like PF8 as soon as possible, if possible please.

Thanks Buddy!

I'm not your buddy, friend!

...but the 100-year jump means very little of that will be useable anymore.

Realmslore prior to the Spellplague is still very important for establishing ruins and adventure backstories. I often run games where adventurers are spending time exploring details from the past more than the present.

I enjoy Richard Lee Byers action packed writing style. His book that came out last month (Undead) takes place as the Spellplague begins.

Well, we don't intend to "backwards engineer" 4e into our system, so I'm not worried about it.

If 4E is around and influential in any way on playtesters then you could have trouble if any of the feedback you incorporate into Alpha/Beta even remotely resembles 4E (be it vague and/or unintentional).

Personally I'd like to see you continue your focus on adventures. The standard OGL has worked for Paizo so far. Keep it as close as possible.

If WotC did that, they would not have ANY ground to stand on. Others have done the same, just to name a few:

OSRIC
True20
Mutants and Masterminds
Conan
Babylon 5

They were developed in an OGL friendly era of WotC, and during a time when the current version of D&D fell within the license of the OGL. I'm not suggesting they would be sued for violating the terms of the OGL; I'm worried they would be sued for mimicing concepts designed for the new, non-OGL D&D system.

When it comes to non-D&D IP, WotC has pursued litigation despite the negative publicity of lawsuits against competitors.

My hope is that PF RPG keeps it simple and doesn't stray far from OGL. I don't want to see the line disappear like so many RPGs before it.

Great work, Takasi

Learned the hard way you can't unring bells.

I blame the chat room going down!

Edit: Also, there are other companies that have printed the two big no-no's: XP and Ability Score Creation. They just say "uses the rules for the d20-fantasy game" or something along those lines. They even print the OGL in the back of the book. Check out the World of Warcraft RPG, for instance.

That is allowed in OGL, but not d20.

I'm just worried that new developments in the OGL may be challenged because 4E is derived from the OGL and is now closed. I'm thinking that any addition to the OGL that could be argued as similar even in style to 4E could become a legal nightmare.

I deleted my first post hoping it would delete the thread but it didn't.

I sent a note to the mods at EN World hoping they'd delete that one too. Chat's been down today, otherwise I would have talked about this there. Personally I'm just very upset that Nick won't be writing for Eberron any longer.

WotC got a lot of the talent that they did today by picking up creative people from the 3rd party publishers. Squashing that market is not good for the pool of talent in general.

I'm guessing they are shifting towards the DDI and RPGA to recruit this talent.

To use your analogy, they've decided to work like the NFL and recruit directly from amateurs.

I've heard that WotC no longer lets its employees do freelance for other companies without getting permission from a manager first. Which totally makes sense for WotC, really.

Nick wasn't a WotC employee though. What if they are extending it to all freelancers? Or contributers to the DDI, should that become successful?

I can't think this is a good move on their part if true.

There's hope at this point that 3.5 will be profitable in the future.

If that does not happen, freelancers may turn to WotC. WotC helped a lot of writers in the past get the fanbase they have today because of the amount of exposure WotC provides. If the choice comes down to 'get my work published by a small niche like Paizo' or 'get my work published by Wizards of the Coast', I'm worried that some upcoming 'RPG Superstars' could lean towards the latter.

If someone's goal at WotC is to make the OGL unprofitable then I see this as one possible move.

Does Paizo worry about any future legal battles with WotC?

The OGL allows for the use of existing open gaming content. If you write adventures I think you're OK.

However, in a new, aggressive age of WotC IP control, I would not be surprised at all if lawsuits were used as a way to prevent small businesses from creating new innovations into the OGL. Their case? The new material copies or patterns material that is outside of the OGL.

It may be a shaky case, but is Paizo prepared to defend themselves? They already dropped the 'Adventure Path' trademark issue; I wouldn't be surprised if WotC started using that term in the future.

I think the safest route is to keep the RPG as close to the existing OGL as possible. Some of the things I'm seeing are already very similar to the ideas presented in the 4E previews.

WotC is touting 4th edition's E-Tools, but we already have an excellent way to play online: MapTool!

http://www.onlinednd.com/

We are looking for players who are interested in DMing or playing in online Pathfinder RPG groups. Please be sure to stop by here:

Pathfinder Playtest Group

Also, if you are playing online somewhere else, whether it's real time using mapping software or if it's through play by email/post, please share your experiences in this thread.

You can also use it in a grapple, right? One of my players took this as an exotic weapon, but he's also a Varisian ranger aspiring to be a member of the Sable Company. This is one of those "mechanics first, flavor cleanup afterwards" scenarios. Does anyone have any tips on how to integrate its use into his backstory?

For my Crimson Throne game I have a lot of thoughts I'm not ready to write down yet, but I do have a few comments I'd like to post right away for Mary.

1.) As a player, I'm disturbed when DMs complain about modules and authors. If the DM is cynical and skeptical about a campaign then it breeds malcontent amongst the players, and produces, IME, a poor campaign. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. As a result I never, ever do this in front of my players. If I'm going to run a campaign I'm going to sell it to my players as if it's the RPG experience of a lifetime.

2.) Please continue to critique future modules. If your DM is not running CotCT, please purchase the module. In fact, I would be willing to buy your subscription so that you can post lengthy reviews on the boards. Paizo is a great company because its staff and writers listen and respond to cynics; "Yes Men" fanboy flattery is shallow and a waste of boardspace, IMO.

If Paizo ever issued stock I'd bet my optimism in a big way.

You can always join the Superscriber club. :P

I disagree. As long as the quality remains, so will the business. Quality always sells.

Even the best quality bows down to supply and demand. We'll see what happens, but I have a strong feeling that if 4E gives people a bad taste in their mouth they're probably going to look for something completely different or at best just stick with vanilla 3.5.

Pathfinder attempts to improve 3.5e, that's something distinctly different. And with wizards ceasing production, it's also a completely different situation than three or four years ago.

How so? In both scenarios we have a new edition that's the same face with a different haircut. Old books are artifically deemed'obsolete' by WotC, and soon you have the same retreads (Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon, Complete Warrior-Sword and Fist-Martial Power, etc). 4E will still be viewed as a d20 system in the eyes of the hobby.

And on top of that, Paizo is able to bring their name into the equotation. Not such a big name, bust most D&D players will have heard of them to some degree.

Paizo's name is pretty small on most store shelves I've seen, and most gaming circles. Hopefully that will change, but I don't see how the name 'Paizo' is more significant than say 'Sword and Sorcery', 'White Wolf', AEG, Mongoose, World of Warcraft, Game of Thrones, etc.

True20 is doing rather well for a company GR's size. Mongoose is currently the industry's #3 (behind WotC and White Wolf). Paizo, IMO, is in a better position then GR for a more successful game. Their game appears to be a genuine "between step" from 3.5 to 4E, as compared to GR's "rules lighter d20" of True20. Plus they have better name recognition. Not to mention Pathfinder inherited plenty of angry 3.5 customers (between Dungeon & Dragon Magazines being cancelled, plus the notable unpopularity of 4E).

There's a lot of 'stick it to the Man' supporters right now, but that's what happened to a lot of companies when 3.5 came out. The groups who were pissed at buying new 3.5 books either took a break from tabletop RPGs altogether or tried non-d20 systems (or different genres). I foresee that happening when 4E comes out.

If the new D&D makes people unhappy, they're still going to associate 3.5 with D&D. They may be angry now, and it may sound like support, but I'm afraid in a year or two these people might get sick of 3.5 altogether. Time will tell.

Every 3.5 table I've seen will check out new races, classes, feats, spells and other 'improvements' to the game. These are additions that do not attempt to replace the mechanics of their game.

I'm seeing a lot of basic game replacements in Pathfinder RPG, and the feedback so far has been to keep increasing the differences.

When 3.5 came out, several publishers were upset. Suddenly many of their products were viewed as outdated. In response to this, some went their own way and made their own OGL game:

Arcana Evolved
Castles and Crusades
Conan
Everquest
Game of Thrones
Iron Heroes
World of Warcraft
True20

The list goes on. Some of these did ok and some failed, but our table didn't play any of these. Why? Because they fell into a 'too same, too different' category. If our table wanted something different we'd find something new, and if we wanted the same we'd stick with what we had. When you start messing with hit points, grapple rules, skills, basic feats, the combat system, etc, then the changes should at least be different enough that it warrants a new system.

If you stay too close, you run the risk of competing against past OGL games. A new player who sees Pathfinder and learns about d20 for the first time will have literally thousands of new and used books to choose from. Why purchase Pathfinder at all? Think of all the Dungeon modules they've missed out on!

It seems like a difficult balancing act, and I wish Paizo the best of luck with it. I hope they can succeed where others have tried before them.

I don't get it.

They're celebrating 4th edition. I think they could care less about Paizo's decision. More 4E cake for them.

When 3.5 came out, several third party companies took their ball and went home, making their own OGL game. Few are still supported today. I hope Paizo knows what they're doing...

In the latest Paizo newsletter, James Jacobs dropped hints on upcoming APs:

AP 4:

After that, in February of 2009, we'll be starting up the fourth Pathfinder Adventure Path (which, at the time I'm writing this, will quite likely be moving out of Varisia and into devil-haunted Cheliax, and just might involve a bit of good old-fashioned "tame the wilderness" stuff), which will also use the 3.5 rules.

5, 6, 7, 8 (Schlemeel, Schlemazel, Hasenfeffer Incorporated!)

I've already got lots of ideas bumping around in my head about what that Adventure Path is going to be about...Will it focus on the destruction brought to Golarion by the advent of the genie wars? Will your PCs get hired by Ameiko to go on an expedition from Sandpoint over the north pole and down into Tian Xia? What nation would be the best one to hit with the Polymorph Plague? Will it be our first direct sequel to a prior Adventure Path—could we see the Return of the Runelords?

Awesome stuff. Which one do you want to see?

My personal favorite is the first, hinted at for #4. Something like Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, but HUGE. Help build towns, forts, missions, bridges, etc, while several forces gather to thwart your attempts.

I also really like the trek over the North Pole, but the Polymorph Plague is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I've always wanted a game that involved an outbreak of lycanthropy (weird creatures, like were rabbits and jellyfish and such), but polymorph is even better.

How about an AP about defeating one of each chromatic dragon? What ideas do other people have?

Great news, thanks Lisa!

Any update on the backorders?

More and more items are moving to backorder. Are the books I ordered physically held until the backorders are filled? If not, can you please break up my order into multiple shipments?

For Charles:

Mike Mearls says he is Retro Stupid and proud of it.

I'm comparing some character sheets for different systems. Let's look at 4E vs 3.5 vs Exalted. 4E looks so very close to 3.5. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say they're almost compatible with one another.

Kathra Ironforge
Female dwarf fighter 1
Init +1; Senses Low-Light, Insight 12, Perception 12
Languages Common, Dwarven
--------------------
AC 19
hp 33; healing surge (13/day, 8 hp)
Fort 16, Ref 13, Will 12
--------------------
Spd 25 ft
Melee warhammer +6 (1d10+5)
Ranged handaxe +6 (1d6+5, range 25 ft)
Atk Options - Combat Challenge (enemy -2 attack vs allies), Combat Challenge (aoo vs 5' steps), Combat Superiority (+2 vs aoo, prevent movement)
Exploits
At will - Cleave (3 damage to adjacent target on hit), Tide of Iron (use shield to push target 5' on hit)
1/encounter - Passing Attack (on hit 5' step after attack and/or attack secondary target)
1/day - Brute Strike (triple base weapon damage)
--------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
SQ Cast-Iron Stomach (+5 save vs poison), Dwarven Resilience, Stand Your Ground (resist forced movement, save to prevent knocked prone)
Feats Dwarven Weapon Training
Skills Acrobatics -1, Athletics +6, Endurance +9, Heal +7, Insight +2, Perception +2, Stealth -1, Streetwise +4
Equipment Scale Armor, heavy shield, warhammer, 2 handaxes, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days' trail rations, 50 ft. of hempen rope, waterskin

Kathra Ironforge
Female dwarf fighter 1
Init +1; Senses Darkvision, Listen +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, Dwarven
--------------------
AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16; +4 vs giants
hp 14 (1 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +2; +2 vs poison, +2 vs spells
--------------------
Spd 20 ft
Melee warhammer +4 (1d8+3)
Ranged handaxe +2 (1d4+3 / x3, range 20 ft)
Atk options +1 to hit vs orcs and goblinoids, power attack, cleave (attack adjacent target after dropping opponent)
Base Atk +1; Grp +4
--------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
SQ Stonecunning, Weapon Familiarity (dwarven waraxe), Stability (+4 vs bull rush or trip)
Feats Power Attack, Cleave
Skills Climb +1, Intimidate +3
Equipment Scale Armor, heavy shield, warhammer, 2 handaxes, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days' trail rations, 50 ft. of hempen rope, waterskin

Kathra Ironforge
Caste Dawn, Concept Mercenary
Attributes Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 4, Charisma 3, Manipulation 2, Appearance 3, Perception 3, Intelligence 3, Wits 3
Abilities
Dawn - Archery 2, Brawl 2, Martial Arts 0, Melee 4, Thrown 0
Zenith - Endurance 1, Performance 1, Presence 0, Resistance 0, Survival 0
Twilight - Crafts 0, Investigation 0, Lore 1, Medicine 1, Occult 0
Night - Athletics 1, Awareness 1, Dodge 1, Larceny 0, Stealth 0
Eclipse - Bureacracy 1, Linguistics 2, Ride 3, Sail 0, Socialize 1
Advantages
Allies 2, Backing 1, Contacts 2, Followers 4, Resources 3
Charms
Excellent Strike, Hungry Tiger Technique, Fire and Stones Strike, Golden Essense Block, Dipping Swallow Defense, Respect-Commanding Attitude, Body Mending Meditation, Master Horseman's Eye, Spirit Steadying Assurance, Ox-Body Technique
Weapons
Greatsword (Spd 6, Acc 9, DMG 10L, PRY 6)
Willpower 5
Virtues
Compassion 2, Temperance 2, Conviction 2, Valor 3
Flaws Foolhardy, Contempt
Anima Bonfire of the Pyre
Health Soak B 12, L 8, A 6
Essence 2, Personal 15, Peripheral 23

I'm trying to figure out where the Pathfinder RPG will fit on this Threefold Model.

Would any Paizo folks like to tell me where they fit? I'm thinking it will end up leaning very heavily on the Pretentious side.

Is there any chance that once 4E is out, there will be full conversions of the Adventure Paths?

Paizo has a HORRIBLE track record when it comes to conversion notes. I wouldn't hold my breath on this one...