Goblin Squad Member
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Apparently I have been working with the wrong assumptions about what spells can go into a spellbook. My assumption was that the + of the spellbook limited the level of the spell, and that the higher tier spellbooks allowed more spell levels to be stored on the tab.
I diligently learned all of the needed skills, acquired the necessary materials (thanks to advice and help of the community) and made an introductionary spellbook +2, thinking that I would finally be able to put in the fireball spell that I learned so long ago. No such luck - I can't even put in level 2 spells.
So, the questions are:
For each spell level, do you need the same tier level spellbook (i.e tier 3 spellbooks for level 3 spells)?
So are we looking at very high tier goods for casters as compared to fighters?
Why is learning spells relatively inexpensive, but that getting a spellbook to actually put them in so difficult?
Has anyone been able to cast a level 3 spell yet? If so, how did it go (I am curious to see what a fireball or other level 3 spell actually looks like when cast and the effects)?
If the intent is to require a tier spellbook for each spell level, that is something that should be clearly indicated in the guide - it can be a little frustrating to spend the XP to learn the spells and such, but not be able to use them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The name of the Spellbook determines the maximum Spell Level that can be slotted. The Upgrade Plus determines how many total levels of Spells can be slotted.
The Progression is:
Introductory (Level 1 Spells)
Learner's (Level 3 Spells)
Apprentice's (Level 3 Spells)
Adept's (Level 6 Spells)
Magister's (Level 6 Spells)
Archmage's (Level 9 Spells)
Transcendant (Level 9 Spells)
For the last four, I'm just guessing at the maximum Spell Level.
[Edit] Corrected the max Spell Level for all listed based on Stephen's post below.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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You've got the effects reversed. The spellbook type controls the max level, and the + increases the total number of levels that can be placed in the book.
There are seven versions of each implement.
The first one is always labeled Introductory [Implement Type]. Those can only hold up to level 1 expendables of the appropriate type. They can hold total levels equal to 2 plus the upgrade level (so an Introductory Spellbook +2 can hold 4 spell levels, so functionally four first level spells).
Past the first one, there are two of each type for each tier. Those can always hold up to the Tier x 3 as a max level (e.g., a Tier 1 spellbook that's not Introductory can hold up to 3rd level spells). The one that can be made more easily of the two can hold less total levels, but higher pluses of each increase the levels held.
For Spellbooks, the way it works out is:
Spellbook - Max Level - Base Total Levels - Extra Total Levels Per Plus
Introductory Spellbook - 1 - 2 - 1
Learner's Spellbook - 3 - 5 - 2
Apprentice's Spellbook - 3 - 8 - 3
Adept's Spellbook - 6 - 11 - 4
Magister's Spellbook - 6 - 14 - 5
Archmage's Spellbook - 9 - 17 - 6
Transcendent Spellbook - 9 - 20 - 7
For example, a Learner's Spellbook +2 can hold 9 levels of up to level 3 (so 3/3/3, or maybe 3/2/2/1/1, etc.). Meanwhile, an Apprentice's Spellbook +0 can hold 8 levels of up to level 3, so it's actually a little bit worse than the one that's technically lower level (because making the lower level one +2 actually made it cost many more resources than the +0 higher level one).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has anyone been able to cast a level 3 spell yet?
I have an Apprentice's Spellbook +2 that allows me to slot Level 3 Spells (I have quite a few). The damage is not drastically greater; the biggest difference is that the Effects are typically quite a bit more powerful and usually don't require Conditions.
Compare:
Killing Joke (Cantrip)
- Damage Factor: 2.35
- Stun (4 Seconds) if Target is Distressed
Hideous Laughter (Level 2 Spell)
- Damage Factor: 0
- Stun (4 Seconds)
- Dazed (1 Round)
So, they're not "night & day" better. In general, I find that they're simply more reliable means of applying Effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the input - not as bad as I thought, but definitely something that needs to be clearly written somewhere - if only to manage expectations.
Next question is what level of artificer does the learner spellbook become available? Is a recipe needed?
And, does anyone have a learner spellbook that I can acquire?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are the Spellbooks recipe drops or are they common? What level Artificer do you need to make them?They're all Common, so I think that means you get them when you reach the appropriate Rank (1, 3, 4, 8, 11, 15, 18).
Pretty sure that is the case. Its not getting recipes that is the issue when making spellbooks. The problem is the huge amount of rare colors needed for the ink to make any of the better spell books. That may of course be "working as intended" as a way of limiting high powered spells from dominating the early game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are the Spellbooks recipe drops or are they common? What level Artificer do you need to make them?They're all Common, so I think that means you get them when you reach the appropriate Rank (1, 3, 4, 8, 11, 15, 18).
Is it Artificer skill level, or is there another skill that is needed for the spellbook recipe drops (cause knowing my luck, I will ramp up the wrong skill :))
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Goblin Squad Member
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Artificer makes the Spellbooks. For an Apprentice's Spellbook, you'll need a Tanner to make the Basic Hide Sheets and Parchment Sheets, and an Apothecary to make the Clerk's Ink.
I ramped up tanner, apothecary and sage to be able to make spellbooks and wands/staves (daughter has the sawyer skill).
But to get the spellbook recipe drops, I wanted to confirm that the skill that needs to be at 3rd level is Artificer, not spellcraft or some other skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would ask about the level 3 cleric spell. Locke has it in his holy symbol (not introductory, but novitiate +1 which he made himself -- 7 levels up to level 3). However I am some what at a loss to understand what it does and how to use. Of course I have some of the same questions about Orisons. I understand the need of brief description, but is there some place that explains.
For instance what does burst to self mean with something that seems range 20.
(My other alt is waiting for meeting down south, so Locke can not quite the spell now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would ask about the level 3 cleric spell. Locke has it in his holy symbol (not introductory, but novitiate +1 which he made himself -- 7 levels up to level 3). However I am some what at a loss to understand what it does and how to use. Of course I have some of the same questions about Orisons. I understand the need of brief description, but is there some place that explains.
For instance what does burst to self mean with something that seems range 20.
(My other alt is waiting for meeting down south, so Locke can not quite the spell now.
What is the spell?
Burst means it is an AoE spell that effects everything within a specified distance of where-ever the spell is centered.
Hence "Burst to Target" effects everything around the selected target whereas "Burst to Self" effects everything around the spellcaster.
If it is "20m burst to self" it effects everything (friend or foe) within 20m of the cleric casting the spell regardless of direction.
Note that a lot of cleric spells (hold person for example) only effect other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Power Cost: 18
All Keywords Obscuring, Acolyte, Scourging
Cooldown 0
Damage Factor 0
Effects:
Negative Dammage Burst to self, Oblivious 100 to all
Restrictions:
Provokes Opportunity, Stationary
Other:
Targets Fortitude, Unbalanced (1 Round) to All targets with Disrupted
Novitiates Holy symbol+1 holds expendables up to level 3 7 level (+1)
Where do I match the Spell keywords?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Locke, sounds like you're talking about Midnight, which specifically lists a Range of Melee.
The purpose of Midnight (and Darkness) is to stack Oblivious 100 to everything around you, so it's harder for them to hit you.
Oblivious: This debuff represents a wide variety of effects that penalize the target’s sight and hearing, such as blinding lights, smoke, attacks to the head, darkness, etc. It penalizes Base Attack and Perception. Base Attack and Perception –[Stack Size]
-100 to Base Attack is the difference between using a Tier 3 Weapon and a Tier 1 Weapon. If they only have a Tier 1 Weapon to start with, they're going to have a very hard time doing any damage at all.
You match Spell Keywords to your Role Feature.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can not make staff, I can make viridian crystal for the Adept's Somatic Staff.
I do not have recipes for the other tier 2 crystals. And those crystals need raw material from 2 gathers (dowser [Tier 2 Resonant and Seething] and someone who can get Lesser numinous [Tier 1] and Greater Vital[Tier 2]).
Your +0 is not your crafting but your refining suppliers.
Come to Locke for crystals ( and bring recipes).
8-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Locke, sounds like you're talking about Midnight, which specifically lists a Range of Melee.
-100 to Base Attack is the difference between using a Tier 3 Weapon and a Tier 1 Weapon. If they only have a Tier 1 Weapon to start with, they're going to have a very hard time doing any damage at all.
You match Spell Keywords to your Role Feature.
1)does melee range mean on those in melee range are affected.
2) does this have affect on orisons and spells.? What is the tier of a spell? (Orisons have a tier of minimum of the implement and of the training of the Orison, right?
3) All domains have Acolyte. 2 domains have Obscuring and two have only Scourging. One (Trickery) has both. Is that -300?
4) Do I need only one? What is effect of having 2 or 3. Currently slotted I have two key words.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1)does melee range mean on those in melee range are affected.
When an atttack lists a Range of Melee, it means that your target must be within Melee Range (2 meters) in order for the attack to activate.
If it's a single-target attack, then it also means the target must be in Melee Range (2 meters) when the Interrupt Phase completes in order for damage to be dealt.
If it's not a single-target attack, then it will have an Area of Effect (AoE) listed in its Standard Effects.
Radials expand out from the target, or directly from you if the Area of Effect includes "to Self":
- Area - hits everything within 12 meters of the target.
- Burst - hits everything within 6 meters of the target.
- Splash - hits everything within Melee Range (2 meters) of the target.
Streak is a direct-line AoE. A line is drawn between you and your target, and everything on that line out to the normal range of the attack gets hit.
Blast is a cone-shaped AoE. A line is drawn between you and your target, and everything within a given angle to either side of that line gets hit:
- Short Blast - 30 degrees to either side of the line, but only to half the normal range of the attack.
- Long Blast - 20 degrees to either side of the line, to the normal range of the attack.
- Short Melee Blast - 30 degrees to either side of the line, to the normal range of the attack.
- Long Melee Blast - 60 degrees to either side of the line, to the normal range of the attack.
2) does this have affect on orisons and spells.? What is the tier of a spell? (Orisons have a tier of minimum of the implement and of the training of the Orison, right?
All Attacks (Physical Attacks, Cantrips, and Orisons), Utilities, Expendables, and Conumables follow the same rules for Range.
For Attacks (Physical Attacks, Cantrips, and Orisons) and Utilities:
- Tier 1 - Rank 1-3
- Tier 2 - Rank 4-5
- Tier 3 - Rank 6
For Expendables and Consumables:
- Tier 1 = Level 1-3
- Tier 2 = Level 4-6
- Tier 3 = Level 7-9
Implement is a term of art that refers to Spellbooks, Holy Symbols, Rogue Kits, and Trophy Charms. Your Holy Symbol holds your Cleric Spells, it has no relation to your Orisons.
All Attacks (Physical Attacks, Cantrips, and Orisons) match Keywords on your Weapon. For Orisons, this is your Focus.
3) All domains have Acolyte. 2 domains have Obscuring and two have only Scourging. One (Trickery) has both. Is that -300?
I think you're asking if that would be -300 to your target's Base Attack. No, that's not how it works.
The Effect is "Oblivious 100 to All". The number of Keywords you're matching between your Spell and your Domain determines your Effect Power*. The number of Keywords your target (each target in this case) is matching between their Armor and their Armor Feat determines their Effect Protection*. If your Effect Power is greater than their Effect Protection, then you get a 10% bonus to the Effect, multiplied by the difference. If your Effect Power is less than their Effect Protection, then you get a 10% penalty to the Effect, multiplied by the difference. So, if your Effect Power is 3 and their Effect Protection is 1, you get a 20% bonus, which would mean Oblivious 120 - except Stacking Debuffs never go above 100.
* Effect Power and Effect Protection are increased by 1 for each Minor Keyword matched, and by 4 for each Major Keyword (Masterwork, etc.) matched.
4) Do I need only one? What is effect of having 2 or 3. Currently slotted I have two key words.
Right now, there's no benefit to slotting the same Spell more than once, because there's a bug that greys them all out as soon as you cast one. Eventually, it might be useful to have more than one if you think you might need it more than once in a single combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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4) Do I need only one? What is effect of having 2 or 3. Currently slotted I have two key words.
Right now, there's no benefit to slotting the same Spell more than once, because there's a bug that greys them all out as soon as you cast one. Eventually, it might be useful to have more than one if you think you might need it more than once in a single combat.
THank you for the detailed response to my earlier questions.
I did not state this question fully.
My level 3 spell (tier 1 per your previous), Midnight, is on my Novitiate's Holy Symbol +1. The spell has three keywords: Obscuring, Acolyte, Scourging. All domains have Acolyte key word at second level. My Travel domain gets Obsuring at level 3. Travel domain has all three by level 3 domain.
I expect the spell will not work without at least one keyword. What is effect of 2 or 3 keywords vs only 1? Now and eventual future?
aTdHvAaNnKcSe for these explanations
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Expendables will work with no keywords matched, they will just do the minimum damage (if they do damage) and have Effect Power 0 (which means they'll have reduced effects against pretty much anyone). For Expendables, since there are 9 keywords (as opposed to 4 minor and 2 major for other actions), each keyword adds +7 base damage and +1.4 effect power (rounded down, so you basically get a total of 1-2-4-5-6-8-9-10-12 as you increase keywords).
Different domains interact better or worse with different spells. I try to make sure that there's a pretty even mix of well-supported and poorly-supported expendables for each feature, but it's not an exact science. Midnight has Obscuring and Scourging (and every cleric spell gets Acolyte at second level), which means Trickery gets the best effect, Charm, Travel, and Weather can match 2/3 keywords for only slightly reduced outcomes, and all features can match 1/3 for somewhat reduced outcome. But the difference between, say, Trickery and Travel, is that the spell will usually apply 10% less for a Travel cleric than for a Trickery cleric, but can still be very effective (particularly against lower level targets).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen here is an unrelated question. I see these cantrips on the PFO Wiki spreadsheet but I don't see them available either in the Occult or War Wizard trainer. Are these in game? How do I get them?
Burning Flume
Freezing Torrent
Invisible Torrent
Melting Stream
Mental Strike
Midnight Strike
Shocking Strike
Thundering Torrent
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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They're the prototypical "pure damage" cantrips that I created as analogs to the Basic X Attack feats for physical weapons. But I think they would distract from employing tactical use of effects in favor of just getting the highest red numbers possible, particularly if made available at low level. So they're unlikely to become available any time soon, and when they do it may be as something like faction rewards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They're the prototypical "pure damage" cantrips that I created as analogs to the Basic X Attack feats for physical weapons. But I think they would distract from employing tactical use of effects in favor of just getting the highest red numbers possible, particularly if made available at low level. So they're unlikely to become available any time soon, and when they do it may be as something like faction rewards.
I can't remember who posted it (sorry!) but one of those animated blogs about gaming talked about cool weapons that were so cool they ended up keeping the player from learning advanced tactics, so they ended up hurting the player's enjoyment of the game. These Cantrips seem to somewhat fall into that category to me.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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They're the prototypical "pure damage" cantrips that I created as analogs to the Basic X Attack feats for physical weapons. But I think they would distract from employing tactical use of effects in favor of just getting the highest red numbers possible, particularly if made available at low level. So they're unlikely to become available any time soon, and when they do it may be as something like faction rewards.I can't remember who posted it (sorry!) but one of those animated blogs about gaming talked about cool weapons that were so cool they ended up keeping the player from learning advanced tactics, so they ended up hurting the player's enjoyment of the game. These Cantrips seem to somewhat fall into that category to me.
First-Order Optimal, from Extra Credits?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Close enough, Decius; I was able to find the right link. Thanks :)
Extra Credits - Balancing for Skill
[Edit] And yes, it was exactly the First-Order Optimal Strategy discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hydrating Stephen's levels per implement data above:
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Introductory Implement: level 1 cap; +0:2. +1:3. +2:4. +3:5. +4:6
Lesser T1 Implement...: level 3 cap; +0:5. +1:7. +2:9. +3:11 +4:13 +5:15
Greater T1 implement..: level 3 cap; +0:8. +1:11 +2:14 +3:17 +4:18
Lesser T2 Implement...: level 6 cap; +0:11 +1:15 +2:19 +3:23 +4:27 +5:33
Greater T2 implement..: level 6 cap; +0:14 +1:19 +2:24 +3:29 +4:34 +5:36
Lesser T3 Implement...: level 9 cap; +0:17 +1:23 +2:29 +3:35 +4:41 +5:47
Greater T3 implement..: level 9 cap; +0:20 +1:27 +2:34 +3:41 +4:48 +5:54
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Implements tab in Nihimon's Reference Sheets attempts to lay out the capacity of Implements in an easy to reference table.
