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There are suitable Feats out there...
Just polish up your search-fu.

e.g. sounds like 'Dynasty Founder' a Story Feat may suit you...or not...
'Nation Builder', 'Monument Builder', 'Stronghold' & 'Town Tamer' are more
story Feats.
Other story feats may suit - you'll need to check.

'Natural Ruler' is a general Feat that you might like.
'Fortunate Ruler' is another.

There will be others, you just need to look. I found these in 10mins.

I like KK's ideas of introducing the fey Pranksters.
This is exactly the sort of thing they'd do in their patch & it doesn't even
have to all go the PCs way...

e.g. yes, their ropes are suddenly cut or untied, & yes, there seems to be
some sort of flair up in the bandit's fire (strangely arcane come to think of
it)...& why did that bandit just trip over for no reason...

But - the fey have no particular reason to like the PCs yet, so are not friends
or feeling beholden to them, so why not make a chase scene out of it? i.e.
when the PCs are just sneaking off, a disembodied voice calls out (in a
somewhat high pitched manner) - "Quick, they're getting away!"

You don't have to have the fey ever be visible, & it will make a great plot
reveal later on when the PCs are actually getting pranked themselves... :)

+1 to CB's comments above.

My Player's limited their sawmill expansion due to 'hints' by friendly fey
about consequences. The party druid took that one seriously & put his foot
down! :)

Also, & it may be too late for you now, apply the law of diminishing returns.
i.e. - the more you have of something, the less it's worth. Too many sawmills
= too much wood that the kingdom can't use, thereby devaluing it & cutting
profits in half.
BP is not all about money either, it's about jobs & goodwill etc etc etc.
How many lumberjacks are there in your player's kingdom? Seriously. Are there
really enough folks wandering about all wanting exactly the same job...?

Glut the market, raise discontent etc etc... Look at the real world for
examples at what can happen & make it so. :)

The other way you can look at it is to just let your players run with it.
They finally have a game where they can be powerful & run a kingdom.
Let them do it & don't worry about it too much, unless you intend carrying
on past book 6 with an invasion of Brevoy or similar...

Whichever way you go - good luck!

I used 'skalds' in it's place. I guess you could just as easily use 'styles',
as in fashion...?

Also - I have just been thinking...

If you intend having outside forces wanting NPCs in a leadership position,
you'll need some sort of mechanic to allow the PCs to accept someone with
whom they have no relationship.

e.g. if you use some of the message board options presented for earning BP,
you may want to allow the priest of xyz onto the council in exchange for
10BP of funding early on or something similar.

That said, how about making a limit for the amount of NPCs who can be brought
in without any sort of relationship having already been formed...or, using
the rules you're looking at...perhaps a tiered approach?
e.g. 6 positions at tier 4, 2 at tier 3...etc.

This would give you a bit more flexibility, and perhaps a tiered approach to
the great idea by Chemlak. i.e. allow a gradual increase of rank & as a
consequence a gradual increase of stat bonus to the position.

Next - how will you handle people on the council who are at odds with the
PCs? Is there any sort of mechanic in the rules to handle this?

Know of the rules, but don't know the rules themselves.

All I'd say is be careful of leaving your players with no options to fill
leadership positions. If they don't develop enough relationships to fill
all of the leadership slots, then it will likely wreck their kingdom before
it even really begins...

Other than that - sounds like a good way to make your players invest in the
lives of those around them. (Just make sure your players are aware that this
is how you'll be playing it.)

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You might want to search for Venture Capital - a deal with the devil...
That has some stuff for the book 1 - 2 transition, but which could be used
earlier to set the scene a bit better.

Also check out Redcelt's game of thrones for ideas, & Dudemeister's stuff.

For myself, I had my Players go on an adventure into the wilderness with a
friend of theirs, & he needed his butt saving - which the players nicely
Once back in Restov, then the NPCs uncle approached the PCs to say thanks &
to invite them to the handing out of charters party. At the 11th hour, the
group who was supposed to get the Stolen Lands charter were out of the
running, so the uncle sponsored the PCs into it.

At that same party, the Iron Wraiths were already out & on the job in the
borderlands of Pitax. Irovetti was set up as a potential threat, as he
appeared in a 'sending' telling the Swordlords not to mess with his lands,
& throwing down a shield with the Wraiths insignia on it - then the spell
ended & uproar ensued...

Yeah - swap Taldans for Varnholders...

With respect to your option 1, check out Legendary Games. They have a series
of adventures designed to 'plug-in' to this AP.
You could easily run 1 or 2 of those with either their characters, or as I have
done upon occasion, with some NPCs from the kingdom.

This accomplishes 2 things: 1 gives you maneuvering time with regards to
kingdom building, as the scenarios are of the AP, but not the timeline; & 2
gets your players buying into some of the NPCs in the kingdom.

I'd suggest that each session you run of the above, you have a part of the
session dedicated to kingdom building. You then kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
You can have the 'uninterested' players turn up later, or leave earlier than
those who want to kingdom build.

wraithstrike wrote:
The OP actually wants to use XP from what I understand. That is why I suggested what I did, which is to just stop giving them encounters if they don't get it, after he explains how the game works.

True dat... but using XP & what I said are not mutually exclusive. :)

I'm talking about the messaging to the players. XP is given for exploring,
building - you name it... It's not all about killing monsters & taking
their stuff...

XP can be handed out at any old time, but not necessarily tied to what grinder
players expect.

Not biggie, I just come from a background where the messaging plays a bigger
part than what comes next. The OP is talking about setting expectations at
the core of his/her issue... Messaging. That's why I +1'd you. :)
Setting expectations sets behaviour.

+1 @ wraith
...although, I'd be even more simplistic.
Just tell them that you'll level them up when appropriate & that has to do with how they play the game & not necessarily how many monsters they kill.
After all - RAW is overcoming challenges - NOT killing monsters!

Gotta love more features... ;-p

Heh, that dog was the only one to get a hit in on my players in the 1st round of combat...on the party Ranger. She took an immediate dislike to it - and whilst the party were fighting Drelev in the stairwell, her pet hawk took out the dog in revenge of the ankle bite... :)


+1 to kenderkin's advice.
I also put my players through Fellnight Queen. So +1 to Norin.
Also - check out Legendary Games plug-in adventures for this AP.

That is a cool idea!

Also - lookout a resource for Pathfinder called 'Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns'
by EN Publishing. Sooooooo helpful!

Just to add my 2cp...
I also love your ideas & wish I'd thought of doing it your way... Too late for
me, but...

I added another Red Scale tribe early on, & that worked really well. They had
ranks in Barbarian...which was a bit of a shock for my players... Heh heh heh.
The players wanted to eradicate them for in-game reasons, but didn't get them
all. The remainder sided with Hargulka later on.

I think perhaps putting a White Scaled tribe in the mountains, & a Black Scaled
tribe in the Hooktounge (in place of the Boggards?) would work pretty well

I also didn't, but because of your piece, the Black's may well appear soon...

Thedmstrikes wrote:

Glad to hear about the foot...

Do not make me employ my digital whip to get you back on track....

Heh heh heh - the beatings will continue until morale improves...?

Hope your foot isn't feeling so bad today.
My suggestion for the future - don't do it again...

Merry Christmas Chemlak,
Thanks for all your hard work.

NPCs in my player's kingdom have stopped 'gifting' horses to the PCs, on
account of how many they never came back with... :-)

Also - something that has come up consistently as far as I can tell, is the need
to introduce your players to the setting BEFORE they get sent out into the
Stolen Lands.
i.e. Have the 1st session be all about getting the charter & meeting some SwordLords
& Varn, & perhaps even Drelev.
It's helpful to have some of the movers & shakers in Restov/Brevoy get introduced
early to obtain player buy-in. e.g. different religions...who will then reappear
later (start of Book 2) wanting to 'help' the PCs... :)

You can also use the opportunity to have some of the quests from books 1 & 2 be given
by some of these people, so that there's continuity.

I wish I'd done more of this when I started my campaign.

There is a conversation or 2 on these boards about that very thing...

From memory different GMs handled it different ways.

For my part, yes, the theft of the bracelet woke him up, but I also had the
whole of his tomb still resonant with magic, which on a high enough spellcraft
was seen to be failing slowly.

In fact - one of my 'go to' answers... :)

@ Farvin...
Never worry about asking questions! :)
These boards have been incredibly helpful to me, many other GMs & Players
because we're such a supportive community.
Questions are always fair game for a variety of responses as a result, but
also, sometimes the people who answer need to be educated about the specific
forces at play in an individual game - every game is different. ;-p

Good luck on your quest!

Ditto! That's crazy cool - congrats to your wife!
Please post lyrics. :)

IMC these events have the penalties apply for all time & these are mitigated by
the actions of the rulers to balance out things - e.g. buildings or gifts etc...

I like Chemlak's Spanish inquisition example - & people do have a very long
memory...people still hate each other in our own world for wars fought centuries

As Spatula posted, if you go the way Farvin (sorry Farvin) is postulating, then
the bonuses from the buildings you build will also disappear over time...

This system is a simplification... That's all it is. If you want to make life
more complicated - go for it (with your group's acceptance), but as a GM - I
want it as simple as can be...

Build some stuff to mitigate the penalties & then build a bridge...

The man! = insert picture of Chemlak here...

Downloaded fine for me, of course...I haven't actually loaded anything in yet... ;-p

I didn't give any hints.
Later on, whatever was in the hex would either be a boon or a bane... :)
Of course, my players had/have amazingly high Perception, so they didn't miss much.

Yeah, it's ultra hard to keep all the figures straight without some sort of calculator... (I've never managed it.)

When you get there - a kingdom building sheet.
The best I've seen thus far is the one Chemlak caretakes on these boards.
Sick & too tired to actually make the link sorry...but here's the address. king-Spreadsheet

Agree with you there... It's great to foreshadow & get people talking about her...

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Seitz wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Hey now, Batman's not a bad guy :-)

I never said he was. But to criminals that aren't crazy, he's pretty scary.

Yup - but I'd like to add that - you have to know he exists for 'him' to be scary...

One must also bear in mind that dragons often assume humanoid form & walk amoungst us...

+1 to RuyanVe's comment though... 'You encounter a caravan of refugees
from the burning city you're approaching.' 'Ha, I get a 25 for my
initiative & attack them...'

Tent city sounds like a cool place to have a chase scene...could be
anything from an escaped bull, to a thief (or 2).

You could also keep playing up the bandit theme & have a bandit attack
be repsulsed, but then have fire be an issue...

Read ahead into the next book, find something/someone you want to
foreshadow & create an encounter around that. e.g. too late for where
you are in the story, but prior to meeting the kobolds you could have
had a different coloured tribe attack. Speaking of which, is it too late
to have a big attack by Mites? Low level threats to your PCs now, but a
good way to have them feel powerful early on...

Yeah - depends how you want to play it, so up to you in the end...
..but, I would have thought it put forth it's own story ideas to have a higher
level cleric of the same faith as a PC - imagine the fun you could have... :)

Other than that - Jhod won't steal any of the PC's thunder later on, so does he
need to change really?

Besides that - he doesn't need to be played the same way as the PC - they could
both have completely different ideas about how the church of Erastil should
work, for example...

My group is Lvl 10 & we've been doing it this way since day one...

BECAUSE KM is so sandboxy - more so than any other AP, you can't really count
on 'set' places or times to level - most people have probably done it intuitively
- I know I have.

I guess what I'm saying is look at how many of the encounters in each book that
your PCs have done & use that as a rough guide. i.e. They need to be 'x' level by
the start of the next book, this book has 'y' encounters. 'y' divided by 'x'

This also allows you to throw in all sorts of extra stuff. We've been playing
for about 3 years real time (at least), and about a dozen game time. If I'd
awarded XP, the players would be WAY over cooked for book 4 - which is where
we're at now.

Why don't you treat Davik as a 'Haunt'?
Then you could apply something like finding his bones & burying them would
be enough...
Or perhaps, finding & consecrating the ranseur, then breaking it. (Which could
be part of the ritual you were talkign about...)

Well that blows chunks!

Chemlak wrote:
Well, you could ask for me to finish all the Legendary Games stuff...

+1 redcelt...& a big ditto here...

Dude, we don't need to when you're such a hard task master on yourself!

Chemlak wrote:
Also, if you're not already, may I suggest the Ultimate Campaign Kingdom Tracking Spreadsheet to help with all your kingdom management needs?

It's great! :)

This from James Jacobs: -

Pitax's claims on its nation are pretty spurious—they actually claim to control all of the Stolen Lands west of Hooktongue Slough, but they don't really have an organized patrol route and the city certainly doesn't give out much support to anyone who wants to do stuff like live or work in that region.

The region that Pitax can legitimately claim as its own, though pretty much ammounts to the bottom two rows of hexes on page 22, with the exception of any hexes with forest in them and the addition of the hexes containing areas K and L.


I wouldn't have an issue with it personally.

Curghann wrote:
"why would a patch of radishes boost the production of a sawmill?"

Have you tasted those moon radishes?

Sooooooo woody on the palate! (Don't know why Oleg likes them so much...)

For Drelev (where my PCs have just reached), I've told them that Drelev currently
controls 1 hex around the fort & all of the hexes up the road to the bridge
(but not including the bridge). I decided that in the basis of the resource in
the last hex, but the barbarians wanting to cut them off from Restov & hence
making them abandon the hex.

Pitax - not there yet, but I saw a recent(ish) discussion on these boards about
the amount of territory they hold. I think they say the bottom 2 rows of hexes on
the map, but that Pitax actually controls territory off the bottom of the map
also. All I can say is 'search & you shall find.' Others have scoped it out in
great detail.

That said, the other thing to remember is that by the time they take over/conquer
Pitax, hexes almost become superfluous to the story, as the finale kicks in &
armies & kingdoms kinda go into the background as your heroes go into the final
LOVE to know how you'll handle that with your 75 heroes! :)

Curghann wrote:

With those values, Speed became 1, but HP, OFF/Def/Cons all stayed as "n/a" and Morale stayed "+0". Leadership for the Commander became 8.

... The Army Summary tab properly pulled in the values I put in, but OM/DV/HP and Consumption stayed blank. Morale did too, but I'm not sure if something is supposed to be showing there.

Just f.y.i I used your stats in my sheet I'm running for my players & ditto

results...except for the summary tab, which was even less populated than yours
seems to have been. i.e. speed was also blank.

Chemlak, How's your tres cool life going? & any comments on this?

(I'm in the same boat - haven't got to armies yet...but nearly there...

Everything Chemlak said +1.

My own group wouldn't have made it through the 1st few years if I'd imposed
this on them - they had a hard enough time as it was.

I'd also say that - just because your DM had a hard time of it when the rules
were actually broken (i.e. magic item economy) he shouldn't impose something
like this unless he's played the new rules & found them wanting also.

Yes, the 1st rules were broken in that manner. The new ones... well, they don't
cater to a magic item economy at all - because they were fixed...
The new rules are 'NEW'... i.e. not broken anymore.

My player's kingdom is up to about a decade (I think -somewhere around there
anyway), and they are just starting to get a large & stable income...but even
80 odd BP per month doesn't let you go wild & build whatever, whenever.
(Note: they are not gaming the system either, so some groups mileage will vary.)

Tryn wrote:

I gave my players standard mundane items at will (e.g. armor, weapons, horses etc.) es well as a high lifestyle and basic servants.

But thats not a rule at my table but just "common sense". :)

Heh - kinda the same, except that none of the kingdom's horse vendors will 'give'

horses anymore, as the PCs have a habit of losing all or most of the ones
they're given... ;-p

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