|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
Assuming this hasn't been asked before... Two questions.
1) Are there any more of Tabris' writings about the multiverse? Perhaps about the Law and Chaos elements of alignment, or even the True Neutral perhaps?
2) What character classes would you see having characters that devote their entire lives hunting down Tabris' writings? Arcanists? Investigators? Psychics perhaps?
... Meh. I know I'd benefit from this... Maybe. I got pulled out of high school to help with my ailing mother (Calistria rest her soul), then had to help take care of my great grandfather (whom also is now ash in an urn). Couple with some family injuries, and... Well, let's just say I got screwed out of an education. And with prices what they are these days, and every job turning me down since I never managed to get a diploma or GED... I can't even afford the $250 to snag myself a GED.
So, yeah. I'm all for free higher education. I'd also like to see government aid for people trying to get a GED. Even if it's just a friggen loan. No offline friends, no real family left to speak of (that don't fritter their social security away on gambling and cigarettes, then turn around and call ME a bum for not having a job, despite constant applications, calling, and checking in for the past 6 years), every city, county, state, and school official I've contacted have NO clue where I can manage some help. And, I doubt I can crowdfund it.
Count me, and likely everyone else struggling to pay for a worthless slip of paper just so we can get our foot in the door, among those who are all for this.
Musashi was all about getting in his opponent's head, and getting them to act emotionally, thus throwing them off their game. It's more or less explicitly stated out in the Book of Five Rings (which reminds, I haven't read that this week, time to go find my book!). A duel, and indeed, any combat, is about disrupting your opponent if you are to win. A fight to the death is just that, it's war, and the goal in martial science is to win. Honor has no place in a fight to the death.
That said, as much as I love Iaijutsu Strike and the Sword Saint, it's better suited to Kenshin builds of Samurai X/Ruroni Kenshin fame. I take it whenever I play a samurai (usually) just so I can get rid of the damn mount.
Personally, I'm partial to the above idea of refluffing a Thug rogue with a Lore Warden fighter. Sneak Attack is right up Musashi's alley.
Edit: With two weapon fighting, Katana - Wakizashi. His style was all about learning to use the katana in a single hand, and the wakizashi in the other (longsword and shortsword), as that provided the most flexible method of fighting. He also proposed that all followers of the martial science (IE: War) to know how to use all of the weapons of their trade, but shouldn't specialize in any but the sword. Each weapon has their place on a battlefield, depending on where that battlefield is. One can spend their lives mastering naginata (spear/polearm) combat, and find that it is useless in a hallway or other tight confined space. One can master the shortsword for quick and precise strikes, and find themselves downed by an arrow or bullet out on a field. So, it is good to know how each weapon functions, in a sense.
Which is more or less a moot point in Pathfinder, given the extremely odd existence of hallways that are wide enough for two men to walk side by side shoulder to shoulder, no matter where you are.
I have made great use out of a Clone Master Alchemist.
Between the Simulacra and his clones, the guy remained a menace all the way to level 20. Took them raising an army (everybody took Leadership) to forge simultaneous strikes against each of his strongholds they could find to finally put an end to him.
By that point, they trusted nothing and no one. They barely even trusted themselves thanks to the simulacra made of them.
So wish I still had my notes for that campaign, but they got totally ruined during spring cleaning. Use a laptop for the notes, get a virus and wipe the harddrive. Use notebooks, they get soaked with coffee and thrown out with the rest of the trash.... Just can't win.
Pretty much sums up my experience. Between the Dragon Rider 3PP, Psionics, and some other woefully underpowered options I've dabbled with (any of the pre-magus magus-styled ones, Malefactor, Direlock, god forbid the Theurge [though that one may have been because I was shoehorned into playing it due to everyone else wanting to be martial so we had 'arcane and divine covered' ><]).... I find that anything non-paizo gets a hell of a kneejerk.
To which we have to stop the game for almost an hour while the more mechanic savvy player & myself had to explain that, no, it's not doing more dpr or damage or control than the Wizard, Druid, Barbarian, or whatever other munchkin'd character in the party was doing (my old group was notorious for being the munchkin outcasts that couldn't get a game with any of the other groups in the area).
Basically, it boils down to "Broken = Noticeable, therefore Noticable = Broken". I never did get them to let me use the Words of Power system as a sorcerer, and THAT was from Paizo. Why? Because they saw the how customizable it was and immediately started crowing about how it could replicate and overshadow the best spells the party's resident wizard could do. The conversation of which revealed they only skimmed how it worked, and not the words themselves.
Which I think is another problem, something I've seen many times over. IME, as a general rule, we gamers are rather a proud lot. We tend to think we know how a game plays, so we really only skim the rules when we've got years of experience to fall back on. So when something challenges those years of experience and the sensibilities garnered from them, it tends to raise a red flag. On the other hand, because we skim, we miss important parts of the new thing. Can't spend more points than your manifester level on a power in DSP's psionics, for example.
But, YMMV, just my 2 cents I've observed over 20 years of gaming.
Thanks to Racial Heritage, I'm now considering a Sorcerer with one of the Earthen bloodlines and the following feats:
Also, I once played a Half-Elf with Racial Heritage (Dwarven). Didn't simulate a Half-Elf/Half-Dwarf very well, but running around as a half-elf wielding the Dwarf-specific magic items was FUN!
Put me in the camp of "Classes are simply what a suite of powers and abilities are called".
Then again, I'm the guy who is (slowly) working on replacing classes with "Archetypes" full of "pick your own ability". The Warrior, The Mage, The Scoundrel, etc.
Classes are cool and all, but they're so passe. /wink!
Advanced Players Guide, Advanced Class Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Campaign, Bestiary 1-3, Book of the Damned 1 & 3, Technology Guide... That's about it for me. Oh. Second Darkness 1-6, Shattered Star 3-6, Reign of Winter 1-6, and anything that's out from Iron Gods. I'd also kill for an Ultimate Psionics. Hard (or soft) backs for all of 'em. Fiance has trouble with staring at computer screens to use the SRD/PRD/Archives/PDFs.
I kinda started backwards, with Ultimate Combat, Advanced Race Guide, and Bestiary 4 when they came out, plus some stuff here and there, since our group had all the rest (+ the interwebz). Now that we're groupless, we need to go back and get the old stuff, lol. Just 2 days ago she got the Core from her godparents ^_^, so, we're happy with that for now. Word on the grape vine is her cousin's going to get her the ACG or Ultimate Magic >_>... *Fingers crossed!*
Edit: Ack! Forgot! Need Ultimate Equipment as well. Thought I was forgetting an Ultimate somewhere....
While I expect this thread to devolve into another round of bullheadedness, I'd like to point out an example from Ultimate Campaign.
Specifically, the background generator. It's optional, yes, but Ultimate Campaign is part of the Pathfinder Role Playing Game line of hardbacks, and thus, are still considered rules.
Those give some pretty good examples of what you gotta do to slide over to the evil or chaotic side. And it takes an EXTREME amount to wind up Chaotic OR Evil.
Plus, I'd also like to point out that, yes.. According to this IN RULES... Motivation plays a factor. What you actually do plays a factor... HOW you go about it does not.
What's the most basic motivation for an adventurer?
Beer, Babes, and butt-loads of treasure.
That's my personal experience. Add in the fact that most adenturing parties will use very questionable means to obtain them?
Yeah, I'd rather be a card-carrying villain than a murderhobo. I've got standards after all.
What I play generally depends on my mood. I've got so many character concepts, from fluff inspired mechanic-finagled "suboptimal" sorcerers, to mechanic inspired hyper-fluff-detailed "suboptimal" barbarians.
Actually, come to think of it, I seem to have a knack and thrill for taking supposedly sub-par options and competing fairly well with them. Like my Elven Barbarian Archer (not *GASP!* Urban!), or the Nanite-bloodline Android. Elven cross-blood Envenomed/Pestilence anyone?
Pretty much all inspired by either one mechanic that piqued my interest (Ultra-Nanite Magic!), or an amusing thought of "this would be fun" (Too weak to use his father's bow normally, but get him pissed and he'll snipe a dragon out of the sky).
I've had some overlap, mainly because I actually build, or at least conceptualize, characters in my off-time. I think I've got somewhere above 175 character outlines at various stages of completion sitting on my hard drive. From the halfling sling-sniper (sneak attack at 500ft @954es!), to The Shadow Man (A tip of the hat form Dr. Facilier!), to the most unlikely Iomedean Paladin EVER! (Empyrial Shining Knight Paladin/(Iomedae's crusader prestige class)/Chevalier).
Chris Lambertz wrote:
From this point on, let's drop whatever arguments or insults were thrown around and go back to discussing how/whether alignment is used in your own game. We welcome all kinds of gamers here, so rather than turning the rest of this discussion into a debate about who is has wronged who, let's focus on that please. Thank you.
I'd like to bring this up one more time to make sure people have SEEN it, because the last few posts after Chris are dredging up the debate again. Stop it.
As to the topic at hand.
When I DO use alignment, I use a grid to keep track of people's alignments. 9 squares, 10 lines in each square horizontally and vertically. I actually use a big whiteboard for it, and put magnets with character names on them at the points where people are (one grid per prson). Leave it right up on the board behind me, so people know where exactly they stand.
In any case, I'm still pretty liberal. Pragmatism is neutrality in my game. Charity and selflessness are good acts. Following or upholding the law is Lawful. Breaking laws or codes is Chaotic. Slaughtering innocents or destroying things for no reason, evil.
And, really, it takes some really big $#!& to make someone change alignment. For me, alignments are ideas, concepts. Outsiders are formed of said concepts, and thus are core to their being. For mortals, undead, and spirits, they're guidelines, mere indicators of the way your character acts.
Because, for me, personality trumps alignment. Your personality, experiences, and beliefs, trump the examples of the Alignment system in the core rule book. Because, from what I recall, they even admit that those are what they are, examples, not hard coded straight-jacket rules.
I should also note that when I DO use alignment, I strip it from many monsters and all spells save the 'Protection From' and Summoning. Sorry, but undead were once mortal, therefore, rules for mortal apply to them as well.
Edit: I should also mention I absolutely loathe the ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL!!!!11ONE!! BS I see floating around. Like I said before, I am a vile, horrible human being IRL (general apathy towards fellow man, and I really don't give a @#$% about much of anything). I am STILL capable of good acts, like dropping a few dollars in some homeless guy's cup outside Del Taco the other day.
It doesn't matter now. I'm just sad that everyone else is going to be punished because of it.
Welcome to Paizo and the General Discussion boards. And the reason I took a break from this board for a while.
At this point, I'm going to have to intercede and say what amounts to "can everyone shut up, agree to disagree, and move the [REDACTED!] on!?"
Yes, there's venom there. Venom because I hate when innocents are caught in the crossfire and an otherwise alright discussion is all but nuked due to unnecessarily high rocking ponies and closed minds... And I'm one of the most downright evil bastards I know. THAT is how bad this thread has gotten...
@Arcanic Drake: Give me a moment to raid my library's catalog. Too poor to buy many books of my own, so I raid my library and 'renew' the books for as long as I can, lol.
@MagusJanus: Alchemy Puffers were actually what split off from the Alchemical Mysticism and more or less generated the field of Chemistry as we know it. So, Kudos to them!
Edit: Okay, for Arcanic Drake... Books that I used were:
Alchemy: The Great Secret by Andrea Aromatico - Don't remember much about this one, got to it later on and it repeated quite of bit of the info I'd read elsewhere.
The book of alchemy : learn the secrets of the alchemists to transform mind, body, and soul by Melville Francis - Gets into the full history, all the way back to the Egyptian god Thoth being the originator of Alchemy, and explained the concepts behind Alchemy's link to Astronomy (and thus Tarot).
Everything else was kind of... Repeating the same info, so admittedly I kind of skimmed until something different popped up. Didn't happen often.
Edit #2: Ninja'd by thejeff. More or less.
So wait, how many people here actually like magitek / blending magic and science together?
Pretty much my standard setting. While I enjoy White Chocolate Fantasy and Dark Chocolate Scifi a LOT, I prefer my Milk Chocolate Magitek.
You can probably blame Star Wars and Final Fantasy for that.
So, I'm looking to make a character for a home game that seems to have just the right item at just the right time. Naturally, this would require pre-quest research and prep (in-game, not meta-game).
To this end, I'm looking for character options that let me reach into my pocket and grab whatever. The ones I know of so far are:
Deep Pockets - Pathfinder Chronicler PrC - 100gp per class level, including potions and scrolls
To assist in this concept, and just because I like the idea of carrying a dragon carcass back to town with my bare hands, I'm also looking for ways to pump carrying capacity.
Deep Pockets - Pathfinder Chronicler PrC - Strength counts as 4 higher for light load.
Odds are it's going to be a human with racial heritage halfling, as a Filcher rogue (GM lets 'heritage' apply to just about everything). I haven't stated anything out yet, just trying to weigh my options. Possibly a smuggler rogue would more fit the theme.
Anyone mind letting me know if I missed anything? Or if there're any wonky problems with rules I might encounter?
So... I think my concern got a little lost, recent as it was. Very active thread and don't have the time to search through 2k+ posts.
Are my kineticists going to be forced into kinetic blade and iteratives to contribute damage to the party? Much as I like the idea, some of the concepts I've got in mind are more artillery than melee. Which, from what I've managed to grasp earlier in the thread, is a sub-par option? Particularly with non-touch blasts?
Okay, I see what you're going on about. It's not so much the Undercasting mechanics, as the fact that the psychic spells as written don't have scaling effects with level and you've gotta use the higher version.
Valid concern. Still, a problem with the spells, not the mechanic itself.
Edit: Besides, technically, there's no REAL mechanical difference between Undercasting and Heightening the spell as you want it to be. You're still using higher level effects in higher level slots with one, and lower level effects in lower level slots with the other.
Only problem is the "using a higher spell known"... Which, really, is still trumped by the fact that "using a lower spell known" still eats up a slot you'd use to cast said higher spell.
Exactly. I'd kill to see spells with Lesser-Standard-Greater work like this as well. A mechanic I'm going to have to yoink and house-rule so that it works like that now at my games. Already been doing it with Summon Monster lists (it makes no sense to me that you can summon 1d4+1 succubi for a party, but not a fiendish crab to retrieve your keys from the lake), and it's worked out pretty well.
Besides... "Overcasting" to me sounds more like casting past your abilities. Holding back the power is a lot easier and thematic to spells, IMO, than something that sounds like you're casting a 9th level spell when you should be limited to 5th.
Then again, I may be biased in that regard since that's a mechanic I've been tooling around with for the past couple years.
So what I'm seeing is a lot of impatience, and lack of attention span.
(old man voice) Damn you TV! Whatever happened to pushing a hoop down a dirt road with a stick! (/old man voice)
And publishing Occult Adventures is not going to ruin your game. Just don't use the material. Rule 0 and all that jazz.
Edit: Oh, and add me into the pile of folks that enjoy a breadth of options. I'm so damn bored of the basic "Wizard-Fighter-Cleric-Thief" party make up that I literally fall asleep at those tables. Honestly, I can barely play any class in the CRB anymore without getting horrifically bored... But then, after 20 years of gaming, I'm not surprised I'm bored with the basics.
Um... The Psychic can swap out spells at certain levels. 4th and every even numbered level thereafter.
Just swap out Id insinuation 1 for some other spell of the same level, pick up Id Insinuation 2, and boom! You basically now have 1 extra spell known.
How is that a bad thing?
Edit: Though, to be fair, I have noticed that a lot of people overlook the "swap out" parts of a class. Fighter feats, spells known, (I have a vague sense of some other thing I can't recall)... I suppose it's because most are happy with their choices via theorycraft.
Edit 2: okay, I'm silly. Forgot that via Undercasting rules themselves, if you learn a higher level version, you swap out the lower versions of the spell for other spells of their level anyways. Was talking about doing it off the Psychic itself.
Seriously though. Even skipping Ego Whip 1, 2, and 3, picking up 4 gives you, in effect, 4 spells known. Someone tell me how that is NOT a good thing?
(I don't know whether they will - or even should - get the same Summon Monster/Nature's Ally as other casters, but they should get something)
Personally, I think they should get a summon list that includes the space-creatures (Formians, Oma, etc) and such from Beastiary 4. Aberrations and undead, as well. Lots of them.
Disagree. Time for something new, IMO. We've got white chocolate divine and dark chocolate arcane. Gimme my milk chocolate middle ground darn it!
captain yesterday wrote:
Bonus points if she's a summoner with her Eidolon sized Huge and made of marshmallow.
This one can be slotted into anything that requires the party to invade a crypt. Specifically, when they don't know which crypt and need to invade all of them.
One crypt leads them down into a waterway, quite possibly the sewers, with bones and skeletons littering the walls. They hear faint bard singing with a (galt/'not france') accent. On the next round, they're ambushed by thugs in skeleton suit disguises that were blending in.
Tbey're also kind of cute, in a weird, aberrant horror from beyond the stars kind of way.
For the thread: An Elohim looking around the dungeon and commenting to himself. "I've done good. Who'd have thought it'd grow from a single floor to an entire planet?..." Before disappearing.