Old School Gaming ?


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this struck me recently.

old school nostalgia for second edition gaming which ended up in a hilarious sense of reality vs memory.

oh Baldur's Gate Enhanced, cant wait to try it i remember having so much fun of this. and this pc game based on second edition was easier then any table top

" oh crap, reload, oh crap reload, oh crap reload. now i remember why i was so happy 3.0 gaming came out."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Mark Hoover wrote:

Oh backwards ZOT, how I've missed you. Let's never be apart online that long again!

Also, isn't a big part of old school judging people anyway?

And new school as well if my inquisitor is any indication!

Grand Lodge

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ravenharm wrote:
old school nostalgia for second edition gaming which ended up in a hilarious sense of reality vs memory.

Well, after actually going back to running 2nd edition AD&D in 2013 (after having stopped back in 2000 when 3rd edition came out), my memory of the game and how it ran and how much fun I had playing it from "back in the day", is pretty accurate; the reality I'm experiencing is that it runs just as I recall it running, and I am having just as much fun playing it now, as I did back then.

YMMV...


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So, here's something cool. I recently got asked to run a PF game for four grown ups who'd never played RPGs or hadn't since HS. I started running it and WHAM! All four grown adults, in their THIRTIES, began acting like what I call "old school" gamers. They're running around looting everything, hack n slash, with not a ton of thought to plot or character. Very much like me and my buddies playing 1e games in HS.

Then I realized something. For these ladies and gentlemen, Pathfinder is THEIR "old school." It also made me realize something else: GODS am I OLD!

Try being 41, with 2 very active kids, and then try drinking/keeping up with/gaming with 4 30 year olds on new years eve. I spent ALL DAY Saturday recovering. On a side note, do you know if your liver can cry?

Anyway, I suppose Old School is just a state of being, a sort of Nirvana that gamers enter when first starting their love affair with RPGs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I guess our college campaign with Keebler elves and other shenanigans was pretty old school then.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I guess our college campaign with Keebler elves and other shenanigans was pretty old school then.

Seriously. Let me know the next con you're going to. I'll try to make it there. If I can make it, the first 3 rounds are on me JUST to hear some of these stories in person.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Up to 10-12 players at a time, with three paladins at once sometimes. :)

PaizoCon and GenCon. Phoenix Comicon is up in the air right now.


Ok. Hopefully I can make it to GenCon this year. Secretly I'm hoping you look like your avatar so I have some basis of comparison. FYI, I look EXACTLY like my avatar, except my collarless shirt is more greenish-beige. I'm SO boring...[/TOZ fan worship]

Any other thoughts on old school gaming?

Shadow Lodge

I look a lot more like this avatar.


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I sort of believe that what truly defines "old School Gaming" is a lack of bias.

See, if you really have had no experience with any sort of role playing games at all, or video games as well, then the first time you sit down to play a table top rpg with your friends and all of you are getting familiar with the rules at the same time, you have no other option than to ask each other a lot of questions.

"What does my character see?"
"What can I do with the spikes in my back pack, can I use them to keep the gate open?"
"What kind of carvings are on the columns?"

and on and on, and this creates a dialog between the players and the Game Master, which in my opinion is what new players remember most as time goes by. That first game experience is remembered so vividly because it was dynamic, and interactive.

My personal experience lately has been that with so many players accustomed to gaming experiences where they, as players, did not have to ask questions but were only provided with dialog to read, and a choice between two options, and knowing that it didn't matter which option they selected it was going to take them straight into the next encounter immediately, has sort of left a bad taste in my mouth as I rarely ever experience those dialogs any more. Players rarely ask any questions anymore.

Oh, and I used to look a lot like this avatar, I even own a well worn Tilley T3, however, I have lost more hair, and keep my beard trimmed a bit closer these days as it has turned almost completely white and when it grows out makes me look much older than I really am.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

To me, Old School gaming is kind of like playing with people who don't really know the rules. You just describe what you want to do, and the GM tells you what dice to roll and numbers to add. If the rules don't specifically handle what you want, the GM ad hocs something.

Once you start to think in terms of the game mechanics, then you're getting out of the Old School mentality. Because, back in the day, there weren't too many game mechanics, and the GM had to make up stuff as he went along.

The complexity of the rules and the concept of System Mastery is what makes a New School game. That's one reason the rules-light systems (whether deliberately rules-light like FATE or modern retro-clones like Swords & Wizardry) have the Old School flavor.

Oh, and I have a whole lot less hair than my avatar, although the color is about right.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That's pretty reasonable.

I'm wondering if I'll keep the flame burning into old age like my father or if it'll bleach out like my mothers.
I don't have any children to hurry the process along, so that may help.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

To be fair, my beard does have some pepper amongst the salt...

But back to the topic...

I finally got my hands on my own copy of the D&D 5e PHB, DMG, and MM. I'm rather impressed, to be honest. It's like a middle ground between rules-light gaming like Swords and Wizardry and the crunch-heavy behemoth that PFRPG has become. I'd say it's about as crunchy as, say Savage Worlds, yet it's still clearly in the D&D family.

My current Pathfinder campaign is winding down, and I had been considering starting up a new AP, but right now I'm considering trying to run a Paizo AP using D&D 5e as the engine.

Of course, that probably deserves its own thread...


For me "Old School" means D&D.

White Box D&D.

*Before* The addition of Greyhawk and its namby-pamby D4, and Thief class.

Wanna do something? Roll a D6. Whaddaya mean, what do I need to roll? Just do it! *I'll* tell you what happens! To slow, you're dead, roll a new character!

All the people using the term around me seem to be trying to lose all the rules, polydice etc and get back to the D6-or-nuthin' days, when the dreadfully misleadingly named "1st edition" was still a gleam Mr Gygax's mind's eye.


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Meh, I'm only 1/4th the way through my century of life and I've already got a skunk design in my hair, though that's been spreading lately, and my beard/mustache is 98% silver. At this point I just wish it'd all hurry the hell up already. Considering I'll never have kids, I guess I'll just have to wait....

Anyays, Old School Gaming to me means caring more about the plot and story elements of the game... Even if it turns out the "plot" was "buncha murderhobos killing stuff and taking their stuff in their official capacity as King's Men". When Rules Lawyers were few and far between, and a player could reasonably expect a DM to ad hoc some ruling about leaping off a balcony, swinging off the chandelier, and stabbing the BBEG in the face on the opposite side of the Grand Dance Hall.

All I get now-a-days is: "You can't do that!" "Why not?" "It's not in the rules!" "Why don't you come up with a series of check DCs for me to hit or something before my attack roll?" "Nah, that sounds too powerful. If you want to take it as a feat next time, I can design something, but it really sounds more like a class feature..."

*eye twitch* That's another thing I miss about 'Old School'... You didn't need a friggen feat or class feature for Rule of Cool. To be competent in breathing in game without hurting yourself, you need a feat or class feature now! (Or at least it feels that way)

Moving along from my little side track rant... I guess that pretty much sums up my memories of Old School (which was early-mid 90s with my parents in 2E) though. Rule of Cool; Everyone Makes Sure Everyone's Havin' Fun; Plot, Story, and Theme Were More Important Than Murderhoboing (Even if the Party was All Murderhobos); and of course, Rules Lawyers Haven't Gotten a Death Grip on the Game's Throat Yet.


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Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Meh, I'm only 1/4th the way through my century of life and I've already got a skunk design in my hair, though that's been spreading lately, and my beard/mustache is 98% silver. At this point I just wish it'd all hurry the hell up already. Considering I'll never have kids, I guess I'll just have to wait....

Anyays, Old School Gaming to me means caring more about the plot and story elements of the game... Even if it turns out the "plot" was "buncha murderhobos killing stuff and taking their stuff in their official capacity as King's Men". When Rules Lawyers were few and far between, and a player could reasonably expect a DM to ad hoc some ruling about leaping off a balcony, swinging off the chandelier, and stabbing the BBEG in the face on the opposite side of the Grand Dance Hall.

All I get now-a-days is: "You can't do that!" "Why not?" "It's not in the rules!" "Why don't you come up with a series of check DCs for me to hit or something before my attack roll?" "Nah, that sounds too powerful. If you want to take it as a feat next time, I can design something, but it really sounds more like a class feature..."

*eye twitch* That's another thing I miss about 'Old School'... You didn't need a friggen feat or class feature for Rule of Cool. To be competent in breathing in game without hurting yourself, you need a feat or class feature now! (Or at least it feels that way)

Moving along from my little side track rant... I guess that pretty much sums up my memories of Old School (which was early-mid 90s with my parents in 2E) though. Rule of Cool; Everyone Makes Sure Everyone's Havin' Fun; Plot, Story, and Theme Were More Important Than Murderhoboing (Even if the Party was All Murderhobos); and of course, Rules Lawyers Haven't Gotten a Death Grip on the Game's Throat Yet.

Don't whitewash the past too much. "Rules lawyer" was a common enough term to show up in the 2E DMG in '89. Gygax had a similar comment in 1E, but used the term "barracks room lawyer". Obviously the concept was already common, but the jargon might not have solidified yet.


Generic Dungeon Master wrote:

I sort of believe that what truly defines "old School Gaming" is a lack of bias.

See, if you really have had no experience with any sort of role playing games at all, or video games as well, then the first time you sit down to play a table top rpg with your friends and all of you are getting familiar with the rules at the same time, you have no other option than to ask each other a lot of questions.

"What does my character see?"
"What can I do with the spikes in my back pack, can I use them to keep the gate open?"
"What kind of carvings are on the columns?"

and on and on, and this creates a dialog between the players and the Game Master, which in my opinion is what new players remember most as time goes by. That first game experience is remembered so vividly because it was dynamic, and interactive.

Players rarely ask any questions anymore..

Yes the pleasant experience of trial and error and learning together replaced with time leeching rules-lawyers....

Gronard says...
"They must be paid by the hour or the word because they never STFU."


Basically, higher lethality will necessarily lead to lower roleplaying, as there is a strict limit to how thoroughly you can develop a character's story and arc (and you are discouraged from attempting it at all, as your two-page backstory may end up just that: The buildup to death at the hands of a giant cave cricket).

Old-school gaming can be fun. I enjoy Swords and Wizardry, personally. But it's extremely different from Pathfinder. Neither better nor worse, it is a style that encourages caution, practicality, a very slight "win" player mindset (slight, mind you), and the thrill of a challenge. You will often feel underequipped—either by not having the magic sword you need to kill the demon or by having only one or two useful abilities aside from "hit it with my weapon".

Note that while I say there's less roleplaying, there is still imagination. Because of the focus on rulings over rules, specific rules for stuff like Disable Device do not exist. Instead, the player is encouraged to use his/her own imagination to disable a trap. Funnily enough, this emphasis on imagination is actually another reason old-school gaming is slightly less friendly to roleplaying: You are expected to find the trap based on your abilities rather than your characters, which tends to lead to players being unable to play the characters they had in mind due to their own limitations.


Also, while I agree that old-school games need to be fairly light on rules and permit house ruling to count as "old-school", I would be very clear: Rules-light =/= old-school. Burning Wheel and the Grimm, for instance, are not old-school, despite being very simple systems to learn. This is because their brand of rules-light is actually rather unfriendly to house ruling—all rules are encompassed in very general categories ("You want to strangle the badger with barbed wire? Make a Fight test.") and therefore leave very little room for extra rules to be formed. They're also more focused on roleplay than challenge.

Torchbearer is sort of a corner case within the Burning Wheel system. It's aiming for old-school themes. I wouldn't call it old-school. The game is harsh and can be unforgiving (as adventuring is rough work), but roleplay and story remain the means of concocting solutions to challenges. Failures are embraced as part of the experience. There's no competitive mindset. You do not need to fear death like you do in AD&D.


thejeff wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Meh, I'm only 1/4th the way through my century of life and I've already got a skunk design in my hair, though that's been spreading lately, and my beard/mustache is 98% silver. At this point I just wish it'd all hurry the hell up already. Considering I'll never have kids, I guess I'll just have to wait....

Anyays, Old School Gaming to me means caring more about the plot and story elements of the game... Even if it turns out the "plot" was "buncha murderhobos killing stuff and taking their stuff in their official capacity as King's Men". When Rules Lawyers were few and far between, and a player could reasonably expect a DM to ad hoc some ruling about leaping off a balcony, swinging off the chandelier, and stabbing the BBEG in the face on the opposite side of the Grand Dance Hall.

All I get now-a-days is: "You can't do that!" "Why not?" "It's not in the rules!" "Why don't you come up with a series of check DCs for me to hit or something before my attack roll?" "Nah, that sounds too powerful. If you want to take it as a feat next time, I can design something, but it really sounds more like a class feature..."

*eye twitch* That's another thing I miss about 'Old School'... You didn't need a friggen feat or class feature for Rule of Cool. To be competent in breathing in game without hurting yourself, you need a feat or class feature now! (Or at least it feels that way)

Moving along from my little side track rant... I guess that pretty much sums up my memories of Old School (which was early-mid 90s with my parents in 2E) though. Rule of Cool; Everyone Makes Sure Everyone's Havin' Fun; Plot, Story, and Theme Were More Important Than Murderhoboing (Even if the Party was All Murderhobos); and of course, Rules Lawyers Haven't Gotten a Death Grip on the Game's Throat Yet.

Don't whitewash the past too much. "Rules lawyer" was a common enough term to show up in the 2E DMG in '89. Gygax had a similar comment in 1E, but used the term "barracks room lawyer". Obviously...

Yeah, just look at Knights of the Dinner Table. Lots of rules lawyer humor. I don't think it originated in 3.0.


Gosh, I sure am posting a lot in a row. Maybe I should try that newfangled "Edit" button...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That's a stupid button, unfiltered is am the wya to goo.


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Back in my day, if you had to make an edit you had to use white out. We called it manual correct. No respect I tell ya...


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I've logged several hundred hours on typewriters, I do not miss them.


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Irontruth wrote:
I've logged several hundred hours on typewriters, I do not miss them.

For the most part, I agree... but I have some nostalgia for the SOUND of typing with a manual typewriter.

clack-clack-clack-PINGziiip-clack-clack-clack


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There's probably a computer program that makes keys make those sounds when pressed.


I use cherry MX-switches in my keyboard, I like the feel of the mechanical switches.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Keyboards... pfft. You kids have it too easy!

I still have scars on my thumb from programming my Altair 8800 byte-by-byte by flipping the DIP switches...

Shadow Lodge

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
There's probably a computer program that makes keys make those sounds when pressed.

Found one.

Shadow Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Meh, I'm only 1/4th the way through my century of life and I've already got a skunk design in my hair, though that's been spreading lately, and my beard/mustache is 98% silver. At this point I just wish it'd all hurry the hell up already. Considering I'll never have kids, I guess I'll just have to wait....

Anyays, Old School Gaming to me means caring more about the plot and story elements of the game... Even if it turns out the "plot" was "buncha murderhobos killing stuff and taking their stuff in their official capacity as King's Men". When Rules Lawyers were few and far between, and a player could reasonably expect a DM to ad hoc some ruling about leaping off a balcony, swinging off the chandelier, and stabbing the BBEG in the face on the opposite side of the Grand Dance Hall.

All I get now-a-days is: "You can't do that!" "Why not?" "It's not in the rules!" "Why don't you come up with a series of check DCs for me to hit or something before my attack roll?" "Nah, that sounds too powerful. If you want to take it as a feat next time, I can design something, but it really sounds more like a class feature..."

*eye twitch* That's another thing I miss about 'Old School'... You didn't need a friggen feat or class feature for Rule of Cool. To be competent in breathing in game without hurting yourself, you need a feat or class feature now! (Or at least it feels that way)

Moving along from my little side track rant... I guess that pretty much sums up my memories of Old School (which was early-mid 90s with my parents in 2E) though. Rule of Cool; Everyone Makes Sure Everyone's Havin' Fun; Plot, Story, and Theme Were More Important Than Murderhoboing (Even if the Party was All Murderhobos); and of course, Rules Lawyers Haven't Gotten a Death Grip on the Game's Throat Yet.

Don't whitewash the past too much. "Rules lawyer" was a common enough term to show up in the 2E DMG in '89. Gygax had a similar comment in 1E, but used the term
Yeah, just look at Knights of the Dinner Table. Lots of rules lawyer humor. I don't think it originated in 3.0.

I'd guess that the term originated about halfway through the first game ever played.


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Haladir wrote:

Keyboards... pfft. You kids have it too easy!

I still have scars on my thumb from programming my Altair 8800 byte-by-byte by flipping the DIP switches...

What I really hate is books. Back in my day we memorized the stories and told them to one another. Kids these days can't even memorize each other's phone numbers. I blame the invention of writing and paper.


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I tell you, everything started going downhill when kids started domesticating wolves instead of bringing down the migratory megafauna alone like we did at their age.


Pffft. You guys had it easy. Little piddly megafauna... Yeah, take down a T-rex, like we had to. That's why we're all doomed, nobody takes on a challenge anymore.


Biggest rock is best rock!.


Have you finished with that teenage phase of leaving the Ocean for that whole "land" thing?

Also, multi-cellular bodies? What the hell?!


Drejk wrote:

Have you finished with that teenage phase of leaving the Ocean for that whole "land" thing?

Also, multi-cellular bodies? What the hell?!

The better to smash things with, that's just what evolution does!!!


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Drejk wrote:
Also, multi-cellular bodies?

I blame modern young people and their obsession with sex. In my day we reproduced asexually through binary fission.

Liberty's Edge

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Pansy-ass eukaryotic life with your wussy mitochondria and nucleuses...


Irontruth wrote:
Haladir wrote:

Keyboards... pfft. You kids have it too easy!

I still have scars on my thumb from programming my Altair 8800 byte-by-byte by flipping the DIP switches...

What I really hate is books. Back in my day we memorized the stories and told them to one another. Kids these days can't even memorize each other's phone numbers. I blame the invention of writing and paper.

Alcidamas agrees with you


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Ithsay the Unseen wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
I've logged several hundred hours on typewriters, I do not miss them.

For the most part, I agree... but I have some nostalgia for the SOUND of typing with a manual typewriter.

clack-clack-clack-PINGziiip-clack-clack-clack

How about this? :)


Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:
Ithsay the Unseen wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
I've logged several hundred hours on typewriters, I do not miss them.

For the most part, I agree... but I have some nostalgia for the SOUND of typing with a manual typewriter.

clack-clack-clack-PINGziiip-clack-clack-clack

How about this? :)

Oh, God. Laughing, why you make typing so hard?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Kids today don't believe how tough we had it back then!

Liberty's Edge

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Old school, the way a lot of us played in the Seventies and early eighties, was a game with some story trappings. There was a lot more "eh, guess I need to roll a new character" than "BLACKLEAF!!!! NO!!!!!".

New school, the way most tables I've been on since, say, the late Eighties, are more story with some game trappings. Random death is frowned upon, and "balanced" encounters are more important than sandbox, sometimes you just have to run away and come back later in your career, or die, type games.

Old school, the game was the thing.

New school, the story is the thing.

Different styles for different purposes. The only difference is old school games can handle new school styles better than new school games handle old school styles, if only because character creation is way more involved now.


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houstonderek wrote:
BLACKLEAF!!!! NO!!!!!

houstonderek, get out of here. You don't exist anymore.

Liberty's Edge

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
BLACKLEAF!!!! NO!!!!!
houstonderek, get out of here. You don't exist anymore.

Pfft, I live for the moments I can get in a Chick Tract reference. ;-)

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Meh, I'm only 1/4th the way through my century of life and I've already got a skunk design in my hair, though that's been spreading lately, and my beard/mustache is 98% silver. At this point I just wish it'd all hurry the hell up already. Considering I'll never have kids, I guess I'll just have to wait....

Anyays, Old School Gaming to me means caring more about the plot and story elements of the game... Even if it turns out the "plot" was "buncha murderhobos killing stuff and taking their stuff in their official capacity as King's Men". When Rules Lawyers were few and far between, and a player could reasonably expect a DM to ad hoc some ruling about leaping off a balcony, swinging off the chandelier, and stabbing the BBEG in the face on the opposite side of the Grand Dance Hall.

All I get now-a-days is: "You can't do that!" "Why not?" "It's not in the rules!" "Why don't you come up with a series of check DCs for me to hit or something before my attack roll?" "Nah, that sounds too powerful. If you want to take it as a feat next time, I can design something, but it really sounds more like a class feature..."

*eye twitch* That's another thing I miss about 'Old School'... You didn't need a friggen feat or class feature for Rule of Cool. To be competent in breathing in game without hurting yourself, you need a feat or class feature now! (Or at least it feels that way)

Moving along from my little side track rant... I guess that pretty much sums up my memories of Old School (which was early-mid 90s with my parents in 2E) though. Rule of Cool; Everyone Makes Sure Everyone's Havin' Fun; Plot, Story, and Theme Were More Important Than Murderhoboing (Even if the Party was All Murderhobos); and of course, Rules Lawyers Haven't Gotten a Death Grip on the Game's Throat Yet.

Don't whitewash the past too much. "Rules lawyer" was a common enough term to show up in the 2E DMG in '89. Gygax had a similar comment in 1E, but used the term "barracks room lawyer". Obviously...

Some version of the term probably existed ten minutes after Clausewitz invented the game all this stuff is ultimately based on, actually. And they've always had a word, in every language, for "person that ruins everything and all fun because their narcissistic butts always have to be right", most likely.

Ran "rules lawyer" through a translator. They might have called them "Regeln Rechtsanwalt" in 1880. ;-)


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houstonderek wrote:
And they've always had a word, in every language, for "person that ruins everything and all fun because their narcissistic butts always have to be technically correct, according to the rulebook citation, page, chapter and verse, oh, wait, it's not the Bible, sorry, just sorta slid into that, my bad."

FTFY! :P


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
houstonderek wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
BLACKLEAF!!!! NO!!!!!
houstonderek, get out of here. You don't exist anymore.
Pfft, I live for the moments I can get in a Chick Tract reference. ;-)

If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the 30-minute film Dark Dungeons from Zombie Orpheus Entertainment.

Yes, it's a film based on the Chick tract. No, Jack Chick and his company don't get ANY money from the film.

It is TOTALLY worth $5!


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I remember wearing an onion on my belt (which was the style at the time)...


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Haladir wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
BLACKLEAF!!!! NO!!!!!
houstonderek, get out of here. You don't exist anymore.
Pfft, I live for the moments I can get in a Chick Tract reference. ;-)

If you haven't seen it, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the 30-minute film Dark Dungeons from Zombie Orpheus Entertainment.

Yes, it's a film based on the Chick tract. No, Jack Chick and his company don't get ANY money from the film.

It is TOTALLY worth $5!

It's one of those situations where every single D&D player who sees the film gets the joke, but Jack Chick et al are entirely convinced that the film is a further validation of his agenda.

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