I think throwing things with SR would be better as Witch, druid and alchemist use spells.
Alchemist yeah, but the witch has a lot of supernaturals to fall back on and the druid has a lot of indirect abilities to use too allowing those two at least to avoid some of the problems SR seeks to provide.
The alchemist could also go buff crazy and simply be whacking things.
sorry where did i argue by tradition.
it seems to me that you do not know what the logical fallacy of plead to tradition is, so i will explain it.
a plead to tradition is when you claim we should do something in a particular manner because that is the way it has been done in the past.
that is your entire argument. that because the paladin and ranger, i.e. the past, had a caster level 3 less than their actual level that we should do the same for this new class.
then when it is pointed out that the new class does not work like those past examples you argue to make it more like the past examples so your fallacy is supported.
my counter argument, based on the actual abilites and facts of the new class are that he does not have the class abilities to support himself and his casting stat like the past examples, and that he has a radically different spell list that requires a different use of caster level than past examples.
so while you continue in persisting in your fallacy, i am again going to point out that this classis different, and state that your logical fallacy is not the same as an actual argument based on the facts and abilities of the case before us.
Ellis Mirari wrote:
when your whole argument is a logic fallacy based on a plead to tradition you do not get to simply declare other arguments invalid due to your fallacy.
you can say you do not like them, but you do not get to declare them invalid.
1. paladins and rangers gain more synergy from there casting stat.
2. the paladin and ranger are not caster hybirds. they are classes with spells as a supplement to their other abilities. the bloodrager has casting as a major portion of what he is. magic is a full half of the class, and while part of that magic is represented in bloodline abilities those are mostly rage, which is to say mundane, supplements to his rage. his spellcasting abilities are still more primary to his role and theme than the spell casting abilities are to the ranger and the paladin. this is why the ranger and paladin have more options for class abilities than the bloodrager, because his spells are supposed to be a major part of what a bloodrager is.
Well let me ask this: Is the Bloodrager a barbarian that can cast spells or a sorcerer that can rage? If it is the former than you really should use CON to cast spells, the barbarian hasnt abandoned his barbaric ways. He just has another trick up his sleeve. If, instead, this is a sorcerer that can rage then I guess I could understand him using CHA to cast spells with.
My answer would be:
Neither -- he's a really angry guy that will mess you up with magic and steel.
I see the niche as distinctive enough that it shouldn't be "barbarian with Magic!" or "Sorcerer that rages!"
If you are going to be on the AC order of the sword.
Order of the sword is fun, honor guard with order of the dragon and helpful and benevolent armor is pretty awesome too though, especially for pushing your AC's ac through the roof.
I don't think you can actually get the best of everything in this case.
You want 5 levels of nature warden if you really want the AC so you can share the bonuses with it.
However you are also going to need 2nd level divine spells (possible with aasimar if you accept the FAQ on spell-like abilities) and the ability to grab all the favored terrains possible.
feral child druid 3/ cavalier 4/ rogue 2/nature warden 5/ horizon walker 6
That gets you 7 favored terrains without spending feats, a full on animal companion... 16 BAB, 6th level druid casting, 16/8/7 saves, evasion, 1d6 sneak attack, 2 terrain dominance and 3 terrain masteries, eating up 1 feat for horse master, free perception check for traps in favored terrain
Aasimar(agathion-blooded) cavalier 4/rogue 2/ ranger 1/Nature's Warden 5/ 8 Horizon Walker
That gives you 17 BAB 13/11/7 no real spell casting, heavy armor 7 favored terrains without a using feats, 4 terrain masteries 2 terrain dominance, evasion, 1d6 sneak attack, full animal companion at the cost of a feat
It really comes down to what exactly you want from it.
In the end this will get you up to a 7 point insight bonus to AC for you and your AC and a nice initiative bonus for both of you as well.
meh, for me most magic items are much like our personal electronics, or any other tool humanity has been using forever.
just another tool. now somethings are special to me... but not overly so, they are in so much as my keys, ach, cards and phone are useful.
but to be fair if it does not have functionality i have little interest in things...
so i might not even understand a large part of this.
sidenote. some campaigns are just low magic... i do not mean to include those in the above. because even if it is rare a plus 1 whatever is still only a plus 1 whatever.
cell phone, so editting apologies.
in some way i feel people use rarity as a cruch when what they really want is memorability.
rarity does not increase memoral value... or rather simple rarity does not increase the memoral value of items.
there are in my opinion 3 things that increase memorial effect.
1. special circumstances of the item.
2. special description of the item.
3. special effects of the item.
examples of the above include...
my wizards arcane bond ring. it was a gift to him from his missing fiance he is trying to find.
a grayflame holy, unholy bastard sword made of magically hardened opal with obsidian edging.
the one i think many of my players liked most though were the poisoned cure light wounds potions they found in a kobold cave... dc 13 1d2 str damage duration 5 rounds 2 saves to cure.
making an item memorable takes work on the behalf of the gm. you have to actively call attention to the item and make the pcs want it. this is easier to do if instead of making a... disposable, so to speak, magic item like their first plus 1 weapon special you focus on items that will remain relevant their entire carrer... like their boots of speed, or their ring of feather falling. even something kind of mundane could work for this, like their first spellbook or a lucky whetstone that always seems to stay with them, yes i have before upgraded a fighters whetstone to a luck stone when i realized it was the one item he never lost in 10 levels. to rely on rarity to do it for you is lazy.
i am not say such laziness is wrong... indeed most the time a gm should focus more on the story and character instead of trying to turn each plus 1 weapon into a herculean dmpc.
again this is just my approach, and i am not saying anyone else is wrong for a different approach... but for me investing the time as a gm into making what the player wants as special or as what the npc would see as special is more rewarding over simple rarity.
because when talking to other players it is not the rare magic item that is special or remembered... it is the one that had the story or extra uphf put into it by the gm.
Consider the fact that the core rulebook states that clerics don't have to have a deity while in Golarion they do.
rgrove, i disagree. i understand that my world is a realistic place that people have an effect on... including the player characters. also there is a market for magic items because they exist and some people npcs included will buy magic items.
if you want my full and nuanced position then read up on any of my many campaign level posts.
The players should absolutely have some control over the world.
If they can't enact their will at least somewhat then they aren't going to enjoy it.
I want them to build towers, build cities, and have more interaction than a video game.
A world that is static and beyond their control is worthless to me.
But then again it also consider it the players' story. I just put the antagonists in the way and the obstacles.
For me this is a more worthwhile endeavor and more realistic. After all if you have no effect on the world around you why exist?
Which would be my argument for an ability that increases damage dealt and spell DC while raging.
My idea was the following:
Shocking grasp is one choice but you could go burning hands, magic missile or other such spells. Again it is an analogy not an exact copy (especially since this is pathfinder and not star wars).
The magus list isn't sophisticated and the spell levels are low, but I'm good with that.
The bloodrager doesn't strike me as the sophisticated type -- he's the blow your brains out with what works directly type (to me). The subtleties of higher level spells and the study or work for them aren't his sort of thing, he's more the get in there and kick butt magically and physically type.
Simple, but brutal and unstoppable. You don't fear getting in his way because you don't think he can hurt him -- you fear getting in his way because he knows he can hurt you and that is his only purpose... self preservation comes in a very distant second or third place to kicking your butt.
Remember Initiate -- Peace is a Lie.
Actually the theme has not been covered by the magus.
The magus covers the 'fighter/caster' thing but it doesn't cover the seething brutal aspects of magic. We don't have an angry caster yet -- we don't have natsu, anakin, darth vader, or any other dread brutal type.
The closest we currently have is the rage prophet, and that's divine.
Personally I will be very disappointed if all we get is another self buffer but with rage guy.
I don't mind if that's available as a choice, but if that is all the class is then I have to question the need for it in any way shape or form.
Could you imagine some guy saying "finish him." And the BR punches a guy in the chest and shoots a lightning bolt through him?
Yes -- I could, and I would like to.
Not like a magus would with a spell combat feature, but with raw brutality and sheer ouch factor coming through.
After all this guy isn't subtle, he isn't sophisticated -- he's a power house that you are afraid to get in the way of.
Not because you are uncertain of overcoming his defenses, but because you don't think you can end him before he ends you and you know self preservation isn't as high on his list as taking you out is.
AM BLOODRAGER wrote:
I'm not saying some buffing isn't useful -- just that it would be nice if you could simply explode someone's head with a shout every now and then or some lightning.
Now im just spitballing ideas here, but what if in order to make the class more of the self-buffing kind, we replaced the magus spell list with the summoner spell list? give or take a few spells.
Because he can already do that and we are trying to avoid the boring?
What I don't get is why people aren't say, "Why take barbarian when you can take this and be a self buffing barbarian."
Honestly how about we move away from the mundane simple idea and move into making him something actually different?
Honestly it's not that good though. It's a very limited initial bonus (have to be screwed in a surprise round and even then it's not a bonus, you just aren't as screwed as everyone else) and in another very limited situation you don't give the bad guys a +2 bonus.
I mean it really isn't a big bonus. The DR is incredibly late and an incredibly small amount, and people are acting like it is a big deal.
I mean really it isn't on either case. Uncanny dodge is at best alright and improved uncanny dodge is great only if you are consistently fighting people with sneak attack.
If we want to say, "Hey he needs some defense" these are not really the abilities to say, "Alright you have some defense now."
These abilities are not going to make or break your defense. Losing his Uncanny dodge isn't really going to hurt this class for most of his career, and it's not going to really help him either.
I don't see how 1 point of DR at level 7 is supposed to make up for defense, or DR 2 at level 10.
I mean if you are going to discount mirror image and their other magical defense options as too little too late and too vulnerable I really don't think you can claim the ability to keep your Dex modifier in a surprise round and not be flanked plus a grand total of DR 5 at level 19 as a solid defense back up.
I could live with charisma based rage rounds.
I don't think they will be both awesome at martial DPR and magic DPR. AT BEST I think we'll get good magic DPR, even with the stuff I suggested, and even then a limited number of times any given day.
I do like the current spells known table for them -- it does really make you pick and choose what theme you want to have for your character.
Personally I'm not as keen on the metamagic stuff -- feels too sophisticated for the bloodrager.
I would rather it be more like:
Wizard, "Hey did you use the intensify metamagic on that spell."
Bloodrager, "What's that? I just blasted him."
Wizard, "Yeah but that was a mean blast."
Bloodrager, "Yeah well I tend to be mean when I'm angry."
On the first -- if he's burning up rage out of combat that's his choice and not really an effective one.
On the second -- I disagree, as it means he can wade in and get bloody and if his opponent drops (or not if he has quicken spell) he can decide to let loose one round instead of swinging again -- it can give him an option in the middle of combat that he wouldn't otherwise have.
On the third -- but it isn't wasted, after all he can still attack like any other martial character during the period. He doesn't actually lose anything if he doesn't use it. It's a passive benefit attached to an actual resource burn -- raging is a good choice for him anyways.
On the fourth -- yeah, but those low level metamagics generally don't do much and if he wants to do it again he's got to drop out of rage, go through the fatigue and then start rage up again. That's two rounds of fatigue just to get another metamagic.
In my mind this all adds up very well.
If he wastes rage to preempt his metamagic, well it's no worse than the wizard that wastes a spell to climb a wall that he doesn't need to climb or a paladin burning a lay on hands before combat or any other prebuffing people do -- he's still expending a primary resource.
About the only place I see a problem with it is if someone takes quicken spell at level 5 and then starts using quicken spell before the primary casters do, and it wouldn't take much verbage to fix that (for example: You cannot use this ability on a metamagic feat has a higher level adjustment than 1/4 your bloodrager level.)
Which with my rampaging spell and a decent charisma (say starting 16 or 18) means they will have an acceptable chance of the spell landing and stinging.
Without rampaging spell those damage spells are going to flop.
Again more spell levels isn't the solution -- just a kicker ability that pops the damage and DC up a little (ONLY on bloodrager spells) and a few more spells per day (at maximum 6 per day instead of 4).
Another argument for more spells per day.
The paladin draws from the cleric so to speak and has 4 spells per day of each level... just like the cleric.
The ranger draws from the druid so to speak and has 4 spells per day of each level... just like the druid.
So why shouldn't the bloodrager who pulls from the sorcerer have 6 spells per day of each level... just like the sorcerer?
Not more spells known, not more spell levels, just a few more per day and a bit of zing to help make using those offensive spells a decent choice instead of a trap option.
Part of the inherent problem with murder with magic is that it is not so effective.
This is the one guy that I could see in this one area giving the big spell casters a slight run for their money on doing something.
I mean think about that -- it's one small area of magic and even with my biggest bonus idea (the rampaging spell) he's still really not the best, he's just a bit ahead of someone that doesn't focus on murder by magic.
Again we are just talking about baseline though -- if you want maximized optimal spell damage those classes will still be better.
They have more and higher damage spells, and abilities to raise the damage those spells do.
On an 'optimized spell damage' they are still going to be the go to classes and they can still be more than just spell damage too.
We would be looking at a 10d6+10(20) fireball at level 10 with a DC of 15 maybe twice a day compared to a 10d6+10 cone of cold from a wizard with a DC of 15 at least twice a day with 3 or more dragon's breath after that, with 4 plus fireballs after that, with more spells to come from the wizard.
This guy isn't going to be all spell damage all day even with my suggestions -- he's going to have to rely on martial prowess at least some times regardless...
It's just when he does lay down the boom it's going to actually hurt instead of be laughed at for being way too low level with way too low DC.
How about this instead:
Once per rage you may use a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell level of the spell you cast. In order to use this ability you must have raged for a number of rounds equal to the level modification of the metamagic feat.
This does a couple of things:
1. It makes him want to rage, and for a good period of time.
2. It doesn't cause him to nova as hard as he would if he had to just straight up burn rage for metamagic.
3. It means the longer you fight him the worse it is going to be for you, as he starts getting free metamagic on his spells.
4. It gives the player a reason to want to stretch combat out meaning longer combats that are (hopefully) more climatic and with more zing.
Honestly if I had spell like abilities that laid down the hurt I think I could go with that -- but that seems to me to be too much extra work on the class. A simple tweak on the spells per day and something to bolster magic while raging seems much more time/space/mind consuming than a bunch of spell-like abilities, and allows for more options in playstyles than the spell-likes would do.
I don't think anti-paladin would do that as his list is much more debuffing focused.
Honestly I think the thematic opposite of the paladin list is one with offensive magics (and some buffs cause hey, more playstyles that way).
Jedi Knights deflect, dodge and try to encircle -- Sith Warriors pound through with brutally effective simple solutions (to continue my analogy).
Ah heck -- go ahead and play a buffing blood rager too -- the class can currently handle it, and it wouldn't take that much to let it handle the force choking, force lightning lightsaber rampager of death that the universe fears too.
That's my big thing, with a few simple changes on minor abilities this beautiful class can handle what everyone wants.
I'm willing to say in my opinion this class has the potential to be one of the best classes Paizo has ever designed.
LOTS of flavor and multiple ways to play it and lots of choices for how you get there.
Inspiration goes from Natsu of fairy tail, to Anakin Skywalker, to Gohan, and further.
I really don't want this to be class that focus on being a caster anymore than the Paladin or Ranger.
But paladins really have a strong option for their spellcasting.
First charisma builds into their other magical abilities -- lay on hands (channel energy by extension) and their save throw increasing ability as well as offensive ability in smite.
Plus their spells are typically unoffensive by default.
Face it -- the paladin is the Jedi Knight to the Bloodrager's Sith warrior.
The paladin can choose to go high charisma and will be well rewarded for doing so even if it isn't 100% optimal. He has plenty of uses for that charisma and he'll still be an even contributor as a healer/tankish character, with solid self and party healing, some decent back up spells and hardly (if limited) attack options.
Rangers are odd ball across the board -- they have prerequisite free feats and their spells are also divine and utility in nature. They aren't one off druids they are rangers.
This guy isn't either of those things -- he's a magic based battler. It says so in his description. His spell list is primarily offensive.
And again -- we aren't asking for anything from how you can play him to be taken away -- we are asking for the option to be able to focus on the magic side too, if the player wants to invest in it.
You don't want to focus charisma? Find you have a few more buffs per day, and your back up magic missile hurts a bit more than 'normal'.
But if you do want to focus on the magical element at a bit of expense of your martial ability you now don't feel like a chump for taking the damage dealing spells, as they can actually be an effective choice.
And just because it is now a decent option if you want to use it, you aren't really losing anything if you do not want to use it.
Well I think for potential the following would work:
This would give him a 'base DC' range of 16 through 19. So you aren't going to have a 'great' DC unless you invest, but if you do choose to go that route you will be able to hope the spell will stick, and if it does stick it's going to hurt a bit more than the enemy probably expects a fireball to do so.
But a rage for spells ability wouldn't be bad as well.
Yeah at first I was going to be all, "Wah? 6 spell levels please!"
Then I realized that what I really wanted was the ability to brutalize people with unsophisticated damage spells that really hurt which this guy can do with just 4 spell levels and a minor class ability or two.
And people were right, we could use a 20 and 4 arcane guy and this could fit everyone nicely with a few small tweaks.
Oops -- side issue:
What's with not being able to cast while using a shield? The bard can do it and he's a bard not a front liner.
I would suggest either ditching the shield proficiency or letting him cast with a shield like his 'analogs' (the paladin and ranger) and the bard can.
I would like to see a little stronger tie in on the charisma... but I don't really see how to without overstuffing the class with features that will start to look like 'stuff for the sake of stuff'.
I'm just arguing for opening up the playing field. He can already be a buffing murdering hobo -- I'm just game for him to have the option of being a face eating mother-of-all-fireballs-casting murdering hobo too.
It's not like my adjustments shut down the first option.
Because I edited before:
Here is the full extent of what I would like to see.
2~3 more spell slots per level maximum. No more spell levels -- this guy isn't generally sophisticated, but he does have a good reserve.
A means of increasing spell damage and DC of offensive magic, particularly when raging. Look people have already agreed that uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and DR aren't the right path for this guy so replace those with the rampaging spell option I offered earlier. Even if they go charisma lite self buffer a few more points of the occasional magic missile or scorching ray won't hurt.
Perhaps a better return to the original bloodlines. But hey with those other two I can give this one up.
Either an option for choosing strength or charisma as the stat boosted by his rage or increasing strength and charisma instead of strength and constitution with his rage. The second would help focus his offensive skills (increases spell DC) where as the first gives you the option of what you want to do with him.
The only bit of this that hurts the self buffing martial beat stick of this list is the rampaging spell suggestion, and it's a fairly minor buff to spell casting in place of something a lot of people don't think he really needs anyways. None of it reduces his offense at all.
Except at this point all takes are alternatives. People are really just saying, "hey regardless of what the intent was the 'best' and easiest way to play him is as a self buffing barbarian."
I'm not saying he can't do that -- but I am saying that shouldn't be all he can be.
This is the offensive guy, so while he can already do the self buffing thing how about a small tweak to also allow him to be an offensive caster too if the player wants him to be.
I would agree that this class is almost there. I would just like to see a little more to the arcane side.
Nothing to take away what he already is, just some to offer options.
I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
I'm sorry the direct quote about what this guy is does not say, "Self buffing melee attacker" -- it says "murder machine in the physical and magical sense".
This is not the description that says "I'm going to buff myself up." It says, "quick and easy lightning bolt to the face."
I don't mind him being a melee monster -- but lets face it, the bloodrager's get plenty of that from bloodline and rage. How about we let him have another way to hurt people -- with fast violent and seemingly unstoppable magic.
Look I'm not saying he can't be built to be a self buffing monster.
But he can do that already. Why lock him into one thing when with a simple two things (more spells and a class ability to build some damage and DC into his magic) we can let him do that, and let others have an option to be more magically inclined too.
on cellphone, so apologies for a lack of formating.
rampaging spell. replaces uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, and the damage reduction.