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Sleepless Detective

Abraham spalding's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 10,236 posts (15,039 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 13 aliases.


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Point of order: Aircraft carriers are ships. Therefore your Animal Companion should be a whale, from which you launch falcons and tomcats. Also your weapon of choice should be tomahawks.

You know other than the kickin sword and staff style -- that is simply too sweet to let go.

I think this is more what you meant.

Yeah those are flares, but it's still a nice image

I've truthfully not had enough of a problem to really sweat it at any given time.

I mean yeah "ideally" you want a solution to every problem and all the defenses possible. However at lower level you focus on what really matters for your character. After all magical bonus to AC are nice... but usually some new mundane armor will be fine (after all a +1 ring of protection is 2,000 where as going from a chain shirt to a breast plate is an increase of 2 for the price of 150... 300 if you want masterwork).

Generally it's about knowing when what resources become really must haves (for example you can probably skip the +1 cloak of resistance... but unless you have really good saves, you'll probably want a +2 or +3 by level 10).

Most of the time the "ideal equipment" is assumed in builds on boards because its safe. At your table people are unlikely to raise heck if you have a different item, on the board when giving advice or doing build comparisons however it's an easy place to build agreement.

Boring? Yes -- however functional, and facilitates easy dialog.

EDIT: For example the above arcane trickster -- he would be better served with the ceremonial silk armor, or Haramaki or armored skirt. The price is going to be better generally for the bonus received and it leaves the arms open for the much better bracers of the falcon.

Indeed it's more about making sure you have the bonus than it is what item the bonus is coming from.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Sanstree wrote:
Druid/wizard all day long......
There used to be a specific prestige class for that. Sadly it's 3.5 and was never officially converted.
And it most likely will never be because it's probably closed content, and out of bounds.

It wouldn't be hard to make something better. Frankly the only thing in that class that made it worth it was the Wild shape progression stacking and spell progression.

The other mechanic had something to do with bouncing your spells off woodland creatures or some such nonsense. Its one of those features that you'll never use, but the above two make it worthwhile still. A wildshaping wizard! Hell Yea!

It also combined your animal companion and familiar and let it continue advancing.

To build on badbird:

I like grabbing deaf as my weaker curse since silent spell on everything you cast with no adjustment is pretty nice, and it eliminates a huge range of nasty spells you don't want to be subject to as well.

I understand the position -- bard/clerics simply mesh well.

From the sound of it your GM isn't likely to approve of spell like ability shenanigans to get early access to mystic thuerge.

My only other offering would be to look at the wild blooded empyreal sorcerer to reduce mad.

Divine spells really aren't my forte.

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half elf Bard/Evangelist cleric?

Bard and evangelist will give you inspire courage together. Bard has several low level spells that simply stay amazing at all levels -- saving finale, inspire gallantry literally fly into mind.

So while the other casters are controlling or healing you'll be that guy that when a 1 shows up and everyone groans and things, "It's over for that guy." You smile and say, "Do it again, I believe in you" and suddenly he passes the save.

The ability to cast in light armor for a bard with a shield meshes well with the cleric and the saves compliment each other too. The bard weapon proficiency list helps your cleric side have a better weapon selection as well.

Losing spontaneous casting for cure doesn't hurt so much since you can simply take that on the bard side if you want (I wouldn't -- that's what wands are for).

Honestly the luck domain with it's bit of luck ability would really help too and be thematically appropriate. However the leadership subdomain with its inspiring command would also help, allowing you to give an insight bonus on attack rolls, ac, skills and cmd for a round with a standard action -- no limits per day. The only down side is it's only 1 ally +1 per three cleric levels, so unlikely to expand beyond 2.

The barbarian, paladin and especially the rogue will appreciate the bonuses you offer too.

Half elf would also allow you to gain your favored class bonus in each class, and you have decent choices with half elf for both too -- extra performance rounds and on the cleric side a bit of a pick me up on your channel healing.

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Well I very much enjoy learning different mindsets than my own natural one.

The question of what a civilization that doesn't have a need to develop weapons initially and the psychological differences that come with natural weaponry, and heighten senses is one I like exploring. Another example would be how different a troll would view violence because of his natural regeneration and the inability to comprehend why everything else doesn't just heal like he does.

Add to this a curiosity and natural affinity for animals (most specifically rodents and felines) I do tend to find a bit of a kinship in some part of me for the race.

Also I would have to say the Cheshire cat is probably one of my favorite characters in all of literature.

Fun story:

So I was a bit sick and out of it at the same time my wife was playing league of legends. She was playing ashe bottom lane with a cassiopeia against bots. Cass wasn't completely in the bush and my wife verbally states, "Oh honey your tail is showing."

To which I give a very startled look at her and start searching for my tail (okay I was a bit more than a little out of it). My wife takes one look at me and bursts out laughing at what has happened and then explains she hadn't been talking to me.

Though on occasion she will through that line at me again when I am being more than a little mischievous.

Take a level in sleuth alchemist.

Double up on your panache/luck get some inspiration for random combat stuff and then trapfinding.

LazarX wrote:
Meiliken wrote:
[A good question as a corollary, if a cyborg has a battery built in, and charges are electricity, could a lightning strike recharge the battery?.
Think of it this way... radios and laptops both have batteries. What generally happens to either if they're struck by lightning?


Gods I love that line!

Don't let them slow down? Time crunches are a bear.

"Sorry guys if you stop now you aren't going to save the hostages -- they'll be killed by then."

Have some fights where there are just a lot of mooks, some where there are a few serious baddies, some with a couple of over CR creatures. Some with some moderate mooks but with terrain to their advantage, including traps, difficult terrain, and stuff like alchemical items that are cheap but offer touch attacks and what have you.

williamoak wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Just a thought but since you already are looking at a familiar (I love the valet archetype too), you might want to consider some teamwork feats -- escape route and shake it off are both nice and with your familiar right beside you... well that's an always on +1 bonus to all saves and never provoking while you move again.

If your party happens to have some other people with teamwork feats all the better. The only other one I might really consider is lookout if you went with the divination school (or any of its offshoots).

Good notes, though that is good general advice and does not necessarily specifically apply to the Arclord of Nex. However, it might be worth making a familiar guide eventually, as well as a teamwork feat one.

Well... it's started...

Just a thought but since you already are looking at a familiar (I love the valet archetype too), you might want to consider some teamwork feats -- escape route and shake it off are both nice and with your familiar right beside you... well that's an always on +1 bonus to all saves and never provoking while you move again.

If your party happens to have some other people with teamwork feats all the better. The only other one I might really consider is lookout if you went with the divination school (or any of its offshoots).

One thing to point out Neal (so you can add it in) -- the reward has to matter.

If I as a GM give your character a title as an award, but you are treated no differently by the NPCs then it was a useless reward and pointless exercise.

If I grant land (or followers) then I shouldn't tell you as a PC that you can't do things with that land.

I personally don't mind handing this sort of stuff out, but I always make sure that the follow up in game matches the reward (which sometimes is a hook too -- afterall lords got to lord).

Actions certainly effect your alignment since an alignment is composed of the morality of your actions however helping a group of people on one side does not mean agreement with them on anything else or complicity in their actions.

As such helping a group of people should not affect your alignment in an of itself.

After all if you are freeing slaves and one of those slaves happens to be evil this does not mean you are evil for having freed him.

This is a type of transitive error.

There is no wrong way.

Except yours -- that's just sick.

Honestly I would drop extend potion to instead grab healing bomb if you are worried about healing.

Unless you are using a firearm regularly I wouldn't take rapid shot yet myself. Without fast throw there just isn't a reason to use it. IF you do find yourself throwing some levels to gain a firearm (and its use) then it might be more worthwhile. I would suggest the picaroon swashbuckler as it gives two weapon finesse at level 1 and melee shooter. The feat that gives you a bonus on your melee attack if you make a ranged attack first might be a good choice too.

As a weapon choice for your sword I would suggest the sawtooth saber. With exotic weapon proficiency you'll treat it as a light weapon meaning you will take the least penalties possible for using two weapons but it's also an one-handed weapon so you can use slashing grace with it too.

IF it was my choices I would also consider the explosive missile discovery too.

Amateur gunslinger could still be an option to get quick clear, and since panache and grit can be used interchangeably this shouldn't be too huge of an issue.

So yeah, Picaroon Swashbuckler 1/ Alchemist 4 would see you a long way towards what you want I think.

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alchemist especially a vivisectionist churigeon could be a good option.

troll syptic is non magical and provides some fast healing, healy myrh is another... longer time line option.

basically alchemical items can move you foward with very limited magic and alchemist gives a means of making and extending the availability of these items.

the more spells spent closing the less you have for the day. i know that dladed dash and d door with the needed feats are nice however as an additional option with a bonus to hit from anew source that carries damage too it is nice. the biggest issue in my eyes is that 3 feat burn for full effect.

You know for a class with trapfinding the rogue sure is filled with them.

I would say this is a trap, but then most rogue talents are at best traps too so...

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EvilPaladin wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

We need a FAQ that looks like this.

Does Rage prevent a Barbarian from-


[ruleslawyer]You mean, my Barbarian can - while raging? Does that include -, _, /, and |, or is it exclusive to -?


Should answer your question.

Knight, Knave, I'm the guy with the logic.

I take it they are the ones about to be hit with the sneak attack?

BigDTBone wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Another issue: Those of us that are willing, able, and capable to produce content for free to publishers aren't a huge save for them either -- they have to balance the price (free) with what they are really getting, a person that is working on their own time and pace... which could put the document behind or in a bind if they fall off and don't complete.

And that's assuming the 'free' is actually willing, able and capable. There are probably other issues to worry about too.

The biggest issue mostly likely being that the content is worth every cent. /snark

Yup -- which is why wayfinder is routinely laughed at for even existing.

Of course that is part of the capable -- many are willing some are able, but can they product a good product, that (just as importantly) is inline with the document being written

Great stuff is good but if it doesn't match the subject matter it's useless for that document.

Another issue: Those of us that are willing, able, and capable to produce content for free to publishers aren't a huge save for them either -- they have to balance the price (free) with what they are really getting, a person that is working on their own time and pace... which could put the document behind or in a bind if they fall off and don't complete.

And that's assuming the 'free' is actually willing, able and capable. There are probably other issues to worry about too.

Not telling you what to do but studied combat and improved studied combat will cost you 3 feats (amateur investigator is needed) and give you +4 to hit and damage against one opponent at a time.

Takes a move action but it's not like you can full attack all the time anyways.

I do because I have been told I make great and exciting monsters that people like to face.

KenderKin wrote:

So many level 1 mechanics in the world, at least most of them have master-work tools.

Anyone seen any (experts) above level 3?

just a couple. generally most non named npcs are between levels 2 and 5 by the material paizo has put out and the jobs given to those npcs by paizo. for example the average farmer we have seen is second level and is either commoner 1 expert 1 or commoner 2 or expert 2 or commoner 1 warrior 1 depending on the culture and immediate setting the farmer is in. barkeeps tend towards expert 2 commoner 1 or expert 3.

if the question is about the galorian setting and using what paizo has put out then the thread thanael pointed to uses the npcs provided by paizo, along with the general guidelines they have provided for settlements and settlement building, along with wage earning using skills, some rudimentry work on paizo taxes and hits on the wealth building rules for downtime.

Silvanus this is not to tell you that you are wrong. However I want to point out somethings to help illustrate a point that you help make for me

A gunslinger is a straight BAB class -- you have multiclassed, and into a medium BAB class. Hence you are 1 BAB behind him, however you have 2 extra feats than him and are +3 higher to hit, and didn't need an extra feat and extra equipment to simply full attack. Build differences matter and I can take an educated guess as to what each of you have but I would probably miss something, at first blush I would believe your defenses are probably better too.

Beyond that -- crits happen (and don't).

what i have seen... and your mileage may vary... is that unless the gunslinger is using two pistols his damage is about even with a good archer.

also the gunslinger tends to have weaker overall defenses. his touch ac tends to be alright but his regular ac is usually a bit lower and his saves tend to trend about 2 to 3 points lower on fort and at best even on will.

basically they tend to end like a harder hitting rogue. there are several spells that cramp up firearms you should look into.

when i get home i will see about getting you a list.

basically though yeah a very expensive pair of distance, greater reliability pistols will be your biggest worry but thats two plus 5 weapons we are talking about and a glove of storing... very pricy.

Interesting note:

Echolocation is transmutation and is not blocked by mind blank.

I think I like the change on the first level power (I need to put it through it's paces some before I fully commit to it), but I would suggest the extra bonus is too much of a good thing I would suggest any bonuses applied beyond the base be limited to what you get out of a single feat (so +2). Perhaps simply state that any bonus to a Trip CMD applies to this too (which it already does, this would simply reiterate it), but that's a side thought. The level 7 bump is fine though.

The level 3 power is powerful... but situational so I feel that's a decent balance. Going from mage armor +4 to mage armor +7 is nice but not outside of all decency.

The blast is alright.

The level 15 could possibly have the first missile miss (it 'shatters' the protection such as it is) or possibly half damage get through (instead of all) but honestly if people are that hung up over a first level spell then they need to move on.

I think the capstone with it's giving you the choice is probably fine as is now.

There are a lot of things in pathfinder already which are "magic missile like" which do not bypass shield. For that reason I don't think it's wise to make those spells do so automatically.

What I have noticed about the sorcerer bloodline abilities is this:

1st level ability -- typically something that deals damage, low amounts of damage though and typically with a kicker, targeting only a single target. If it affects an area it's typically a 10~15 foot cone, a 5 foot burst within 30 feet or a small line (up to 15 feet).

3nd level ability -- is usually defensive in nature, permanent (i.e. always active) and scales decently with leveling. This is why I recommend something that increases the bonus of force spells that give AC boosts -- it's a unique feature that plays into the spell theme (i.e. you are going to want shield and mage armor now) and it still ties back to what most bloodlines have for a 3rd level ability.

9th level ability -- is almost always an active ability, and typically is some sort of attack. It plays huge on the damage theme of the bloodline is typically at least as powerful as a blast spell scales the entire time and is single use at level 9 going up to 2 or 3 uses at maximum.

15th level ability -- This one is usually highly potent almost always useful (i.e. if limited use it's enough to be used very often, or builds off of something you want to do anyways). Unique effects to spells are fine since fey gets it's reroll now. Force effects being able to punch through usual defenses is now good as is extending force effects into regions other force effects are already working in -- as such I would suggest the shield punch through here and since wall of force works in an antimagic field possibly allowing all your force spells to be cast into one now is alright.

20th level capstone -- typically offers free metamagic on the spell theme that only have a 1 level adjustment (notice toppling spell, extend spell, still and silent as I mentioned before) and should get some sort of defensive bonus or a high level spell like ability for a powerful spell 1 time a day.

Imbicatus wrote:
Threeshades wrote:
Not sure if it has been adressed in the thread yet, but the Witch class is not restricted to females. No class (aside from a few prestige classes perhaps) is restricted to any gender.
However, a few of the magic items designed for the class require you to crossdress if you want to make use of them as a male witch.

we wear blouses in the army and the male corset is not a weird or new thing.

honestly a punch through option at level 15 or 9 with limited times per day would be fine i think, then at twenty you could offer the free toppling, extended, still or silent spell metamagic feat with a possible secondary bonus too.

another option for the level 3 power would be to increase the armor, shield or deflection bonus provided by force spells by 1 and have the bonus increase by 1 at level 9 and 13.

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leo1925 wrote:

@Abraham spalding

I have seen archers in play (also played one in Kingmaker) and from what i have seen you very rarely need to worry about provoking AoO because you are in melee range, still it might be different with gunslingers since they have smaller range than the archer (though i don't think so since the gun ranges aren't THAT small), anyway i shall see how this turns out.

In your post you mention that alchemical cartiges increase the misfire by 2, to which alchemical cartiges you speak of? because paper cartiges fo the job just fine and increase the misfire by 1.
Also do you have done the (probability) math on misfires? because frankly i don't see anything about misfires in the post you linked

It's later in the thread I think but I'll post up here instead for ease of conversation:

You are correct that with a standard pistol the misfire with an alchemical cartridge is only going to be a 2. However that's 10%

So what you do is you take 10% on the first attack. This means 90% of the time you will get a second attack 10% of that 90% is 9 so 19% of the time you will have a misfire by your second attack. this leaves 81% of the time you will get a third attack, 10% of that is 8.1 so 27.1% of the time you will have a misfire by the end of your third attack, this leaves 72.9% of the time you will get your fourth attack, 10% off that again means 7.29 putting us up to a misfire by your fourth attack chance of 34.39%.

You remember critical fumbles? Always happen on a 1? The probabilities for this are the same, but doubled (since it starts at 2).

Now remember a misfire means you missed the attack.
So we have:
10% chance misfire first shot. No attacks land
19% chance of a misfire by the second shot. 1 attack lands at most
27.1% chance of a misfire by the third shot. 2 attacks land at most
34.39% chance of a misfire by fourth shot. 3 attacks land at most
40.951% chance of a misfire by the fifth shot. 4 attacks land at most

IF you have a misfire on the first shot you can quick clear for 1 grit to have a full attack action on the next round (since you can change to a standard action attack and then spend grit to take a move action clear).

A misfire on any other shot means you cannot full attack on the following round -- you need either a standard action to quick clear or to spend grit and take a move action. Either way you have an upwards limit of 1 shot on that round with a 10% misfire rate.

This only takes into account a normal pistol and simple paper cartridges, if they have a double pistol those numbers increase by 50% each. Same with a pepperbox (which is a nice choice for early gunslingers since it gives you time between reloads and can delay the use of rapid reload early on).

For further consideration in this thread I point out just how prevalent misfires are going to become.

You've heard of the monk having the "flurry of misses"?

Well with the gunslinger you have the "rounds of click aww come on! I just cleared this thing!"

Shield wall teamwork feat and the phalanx fighter.

However I really think that as the game progresses while you will see the gunslinger do damage (duh he's supposed to do that it's kind of his thing -- I hurt things like the fighter, but with guns) you'll find that the built in misfires are really really going to hurt enough (especially if he is using paper cartridges).

The only time you'll have to worry about that and the range increments being enough is if the gunslinger starts building up rerolls for misfires.

Besides he needs:

rapid reload
all the archery feats
either dodge and mobility for deft shootist
or other builds for non-provoking while firing.

He still provokes while reloading and he still needs things to help his will and fortitude saves. Fortunately for the gunslinger wisdom is a secondary stat, but even so that alone will not be enough.

Just treat him as a fighter and don't sweat it too much -- the class has enough handicaps built in to slow it down.

Individual choices for teamwork options: Reasons to take -- your buddy wants you to have teamwork feats but you don't want to rely on him for them to be active. You want the bonus but want to know you can use it without relying on other allies.

Valet Familiar -- teamwork, crafting and more, an easy trade to make.

Carnivalist with Valet -- Hey it's an option. Get a goat, be Esmeralda from Disney.

Hunter -- You have a companion -- you share teamwork feats.
Packmaster Hunter -- You have multiple companions, you can share teamwork feats with more of them.
Sacred Huntsmaster -- Inquistor hunter.
Any of the above tactician options

So this might someday turn into a guide, but for now I'm simply doing a cliff notes version to gather my thoughts on teamwork feats and how to utilize them effectively. feats worth sharing but not taking independently

First Up: Good Teamwork Feats
Allied Spellcaster -- Useful for the spell penetration help, better when you and your teammate share a spell. // If you have a caster/bodyguard combo in the party then the bodyguard helps with spell penetration simply by being there. However is otherwise a wasted feat for the bodyguard. Better if the spellcaster can share it instead of other way around.

Coordinated Distraction -- Nice in part because you don't have to be adjacent simply threatening. Makes concentration checks harder and scales with the number of people threatening. Must be able to AoO though.

Coordinated Shot -- Situational at best. IF you can flank AND not provide cover THEN it's a +2 bonus. Two conditions makes it harder to like, but for not straight fighter archers it offers bonuses to hit which can be needed.

Enfilading fire -- A much better choice than coordinated shot, but requires more to get. Hurts the melee types you need because they have to spend feats on ranged combat in order to set up the ranged ally. Best if the ranged ally can get it and share it out.

Escape Route -- Probably one of the best teamwork feats out there. Allies can help prevent the need to withdraw and with careful planning can ensure no one eats AoO's from moving. Provides greatly increased tactical options.

Ferociously Loyal -- Free +1 just for your ally being threatened. Great feat for flankers and anyone else in the party. Basically as long as the monster has someone close to it you get a +1. If the ally drops (looking at you rogue) then the bonus increases. Morale bonus so methods of increasing it exist as well.

Lastwall Phalanx -- Situational but good, if adjacent to allies. Sacred bonuses aren't common and it is a bonus to both AC and saves but requires evil opponents. Stacks with the number of allies you can get near you. If you can share it then it is awesome for summoners and conjurers.

Lookout -- plenty of classes and archetypes can be not surprised and this shares it with the party. For parties with more than one capable of doing so expands action economy -- requires surprise rounds however and can cheat you out of initiative though. Situational but great.

Outflank -- good other end to the enfilading fire, as the flankers gain more bonus and is especially good with crit fishers.

pack attack -- good for helping to set up flanking solutions. But requires preplanning so you are adjacent and near the monster at the same time. potentially awkward to use.

Shake it off -- good for casters with valet familiars or if you can share it (summoners and conjurers can use it in such cases). Also useful if the party sticks close together. Untyped stacking bonuses to save throws are nice, and even if only one ally is near it's a +1 to all three save throws.

shield wall -- A good pass off feat if multiple people are using shields. Increases bonus for bigger shields and can provide total cover for multiple allies with a single tower shield expanding defensive options.

shielded caster -- very good choice for martial casters such as the magus, bard or cleric. A minimum of +4 bonus to concentration checks increasing up to +6 with the added booster of helping decrease the effects of concentration DC increasers by half -- but those are still rather rare and require your ally having disruptive. Good for a caster to share out if possible.

spell chain -- great for parties with multiple casters especially ones with witches. Gives double roll on spell pen checks An awesome feat that any party with two casters targeting the enemy should take, best if the first caster uses a multi-target spell to increase target choices for the follow up casters.

swap places/improved swap places -- good if you have a the swift action economy for it and a glass melee combatant like the investigator who wants to hit then fade out of attack range. Combined with escape route can allow you to swap out the front line quickly without burning extra actions. The optional bull rush has potential.

broken wing gambit -- interesting but potentially worth it for every party member.

target of opportunity -- ranged pile on.

Next up options for Parties -- these are ways to spread the teamwork love

Druman Blackjack == Best option for teamwork feats. Everyone takes a single level and one person stays fighter until 4. Gives up 3 feats but allows you to share or more teamwork feats with everyone, without meeting prerequisites and from anyone that has the teamwork feat. Infinite reusability and lasts for hours at a time. At level 8 works with anyone not a blackjack but doesn't last as long and if all are blackjacks a free +1 on skill checks and save throws. At level 12 provides two teamwork feats. Allows each party member to selectively build out to the teamwork feats that are easiest for them to get and then allow everyone to share based on the needs of the party. Also allows iron will and improved iron will (as well as teamwork feats) to be bonus feats. Stacks well with most other archetypes.

Holy Tactican == faster share at lower level and give five bonus teamwork feats. Provides on the theme of shared tactics well.

Tactician fighter / cavalier/ Exemplar/ Vanguard / Divine Commander == shares teamwork feats for less time and more specific on what is shared. Exemplar gains other thematic bonuses and can inspire which is nice.

Next Up: Teamwork for the Solo.

The arcana is alright -- though the caster level increase should only be 1 in my opinion or not exist.

Wave of Force is much too powerful for a first level ability. For set damage you could get away with a 5 foot burst with scaling damage you could get away with single target in 30 feet with the trip option at level 5. As is it's simply not in line with other first level powers.

Force Field should note that it is an immediate action to use and should probably just provide an increase to AC.

Auxiliary battery should probably just let you cast a magic missile creating one missile for each class level you have. Most ninth level powers are for an elemental sort of bloodline are simply a blast of the element, with a second use at higher level.

Overwhelming force is probably alright, but most the time free metamagic is a level 20 thing.

The capstone isn't right. I got an idea to offer that I'll be back with once I have it fully realized.

wraithstrike wrote:
The Genie wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I did check the ability. It is not really an AoO. You are just expending one. As for combat maneuvers you still hitting the target CMD so I guess that might work, but not this ability since you not hitting anything or making an actual AoO.

Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack.

If it was an AoO they could just say you were making an attack of opportunity.

They could have also just said you use an immediate or swift action. Trust me Swashbuckler has loads of them 1 more wouldn't hurt.

Also is there any other ability anywhere that expends an AoO but is not considered one?

There might be. I don't know if there are others or not. If so they would not activate the weapon ability either.

My point is that with the way both abilities were written it is not an error that they don't work together. If they had said "if the AoO is "successful" then that would be more open than a "hit". Combine that with actually making the ability be an AoO, and the two would work together without a problem.

The Bodyguard feat allows you to give up an use of AoO to instead aid other to increase an ally's AC. It is a feat I use a lot on tank/martial builds to help give incentive to attack me (after all when the fighter gives the wizard 6+ points of AC when you finally got to where you could hit the wizard you tend to get upset at the fighter).

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
I also oticed that Improved Spell Sharing, Pack Flanking, and Share Healing are all teamwork feats that technically only function if your animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount also possesses the feat...which normally it can't because it does not have the ability to acquire one (and if it could that would be pretty silly). Pack Flanking I could let slide as being a Hunter-only feat, since it only lists animal companions, but the other two specifically call out eidolons, familiars, and special mounts as options, so it seems problematic. Mind you, I think most DMs would allow your animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount to take it anyways, since that seems the intent...

It's not an error; there are many ways to legitimately get around that prereq. For example, the cavalier class's tactician ability allows him to grant a teamwork feat to *all* allies, and those allies don't need to meet the prerequisites. So if your party has a cavalier with Share Healing, a witch with a familiar, and a summoner with the eidolon, when the cavalier uses tactician to share Share Healing, all three of those characters can use the feat to split healing with their companion creature.

Also, many time the designers leave in some things as options for future content, even though there's no content in that book that allows it. For example, there could be a future summoner archetype that grants his eidolon a teamwork feat, or a witch archetype that does the same thing, and so on.

As an add-on to what Sean said:

In particular there is the valet familiar archetype:

Teammate (Ex): A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has.

It's on page 21 of the animal archive and is one of my favorite archetypes.

Also the animal archive (to my understanding) goes on about trading out feats for familiars for other feats.

Yeah I like that on the Font of Ki. Solid.

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lots of hookers and blow.

Sgt Arpin wrote:
Let's be clear here. I don't think the swash is better. I think they both have their merits. I'm trying to find someone to make a compelling argument to my group as to (other than sheet flavor) why they should take a fighter over a swashbuckler when I'm standing toe to toe with a bad guy.

Then have your group make a good argument why anyone would want a swashbuckler to two weapon fight, fight in ranged combat, grapple, or do anything else the fighter can do and the swashbuckler can't.

Because quite frankly your only argument has been, "In this specific case the swashbuckler is really good and the fighter isn't and I'm going to ignore anything else that is said about any other type of melee case."

Which isn't a good argument.

Sgt Arpin wrote:
You keep using this "feats well" statement. What feats can a fighter take a swash can't?

Spellbreaker, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, disruptive, teleport tactician, shield specialization, greater shield focus, ray shield

Off the top of my head.

Of course then there is:

Two weapon fighting,
Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot, deadly aim, and any other combat feat that doesn't involve stabbing things with a single one handed weapon.

Sgt Arpin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Why be a fighter instead of a swashbuckler? If you want to use two-handed weapons. If you want to use heavy armor. If you want to use a shield other than a buckler. If you want to use two-weapon fighting. If you want to have a good fortitude save. If you don't want to keep track of resources like panache.
I think you missed the point. "Want" isn't a factor here. If I wanted a class that casts spells I wouldn't choose swashbuckler either. What you use to do it is irrelevant in this conversation as pointed many many many times above. The point is that swashbuckler does melee fighting better than fighter. Stop being a klingon and start thinking like a vulcan. Thats the point of this conversation. There are plenty of classes that I would play just because I liked the flavor better, even if it was gimped and the same thing could be done much better by another class. I'm sure we all agree on that and pointing that out derails the intent of the conversation and should not be contributed.

But... as pointed out it doesn't melee better than the fighter. It does a single part of melee in a specific way better than the fighter.

Stop trying to sell something like a ferengi and think like a vulcan. IF you want to do a single type of melee fighting then yes, the swashbuckler is great.

BUT if you want to do anything else fighter is better.

I think it's kosher.

Aelryinth wrote:

Kindly note: A fighter who doesn't invest in Dex loses all benefit of his Armor Training Dex to AC ability.

Also note that a true Dex fighter will not be able to keep his full Dex bonus to AC in heavy armor...he tops out at 24 Dex in Mithral Full plate, unless you allow Celestial Plate into play.

The Swashbuckler doesn't need Armor Training. He always has full movement, and with mithral chain or celestial Chain he can easily get use out of a post-30 Dex without a problem. Armor Training is a completely unnecessary ability on ALL LEVELS for a swash, so why waste class level abilities on it?


Not actually true. He still has the reduced armor penalty, and he has the full movement in heavy armor. Investing in some dexterity is still a good thing for a fighter but he doesn't lose everything for lack of dex, and even if he doesn't like his armor training there is still mutation fighter he could trade it out for.

At the end of the day though the answer is thus:

Swashbuckler is great -- if you like to be shoehorned into your role. If you want to not be the dexterity guy then the fighter is simply a better choice... or if you want to two weapon fight... or fight in heavy armor... or if you want to be an archer... or if you want to two handed fight... or if you want to move and full attack (with archetypes) or if you just like certain combinations of archetypes (again I'm digging the druman blackjack martial master mutation fighter).

Fighters also gain more bonuses to hit with their chosen styles -- yes the swash has weapon training (limited) but the fighter still has the weapon focus/greater weapon focus line to help too.

Sgt Arpin wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

Right, you then ignored the whole Armor Training point I brought up. So let me mention it again, Armor Training. Fighters, compared to Swashbucklers, can wear Heavy armor and move at normal speed. Additionally, Armor Training allows you to play even a Dex Fighter in heavy armor without losing any AC. Even with the Swashbuckler's extra AC in light armor it cannot match up.

So, with similar Saves, the difference between them is that one hits harder and the other is harder to hit.

Plus, more feats, options, and archetypes instead of deeds.

As swashbuckler with the signature deed feat for opp parry and rip with combat reflexes, AC hardly matters.

Yup up until people shoot at them. Parry/rip is melee only.

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