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Sleepless Detective

Abraham spalding's page

RPG Superstar 2015 Star Voter. Pathfinder Society Member. 11,125 posts (15,940 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 13 aliases.


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Polypurpose Panacea

Polypurpose Panacea wrote:
Analgesic: You do not feel minor aches and pains, such as from arthritis, a cold, or a hangover, for 1 hour. For the duration, you gain a +2 resistance bonus against pain-related spells.

Not quite nerve block level but close.

There is also Delay Pain.

So not a cure but it can put it off until you have time to scream your head off.


Unless one pays attention to the "same effect different source/strength" stacking rule I've already pointed out.


While the rest of us are saying, "Dude, slitting someone's throat is not battle (what is actually listed as having a -10 DC check)."

If I snipe someone and they die not everyone between us should have a -10 dc check to know that someone just got sniped.

If I'm killing a chicken for supper not everyone in the 100 foot vicinity is going to know I just did it.

It's not "WHAT? I CAN'T HERE YOU OVER THE SOUND OF BATTLE FROM SOME GUY SLITTING BOBBY'S THROAT TWO ROOMS OVER!"

"GUYS THERE WAS A GRAPPLING HOOK ON WALL BATTLE BE READY!"


Kaboogy wrote:
If you want the armor for fluff, maybe just get an armored kilt? No spell failure, you can upgrade it, and it doesn't cost you two meh feat.

Or the ceremonial silk robes with the armored kilt. So he's getting 2 points of armor to match the leather, if that is what is so important.


I thought the clarification was premised on the following (from this section):

Quote:

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.

The effect being "add charisma bonus to reflex save throw"

You have that ability twice, once from divine protection and once from prophetic armor. So that part doesn't happen twice.

I can understand some argument with the "replace dex portion" though.

Basically if I understand that argument correctly it would be:

Normal:

reflex_save == base_bonus + dex_mod_bonus + (other)

How ravingdork would like them to work:

if prophetic_armor then
dex_mod_bonus == cha_mod_bonus
end if

if divine_protection then
reflex_save == base_bonus + dex_mod_bonus + cha_mod_bonus + (other)
else
reflex_save == base_bonus + dex_mod_bonus + (other)

How the rules actually work

if divine_protection
reflex_save == base_bonus + dex_mod_bonus + cha_mod_bonus + (other)
elseif prophetic_armor
reflex_save == base_bonus + cha_mod_bonus + (other)
end if

Because both of the abilities add the same effect.

****************CONTINUATION*********************************

I believe this is consistent with another FAQ they put up too:

On the alternate ability modifier on check specifically, where they stated changing the ability that is applied means the check becomes the new ability modifier type of check.

FAQ:

Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?

Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion). However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.

The prophetic armor ability makes it a charisma check. You can't add your charisma ability modifier to the same check twice without something explicit saying you can. You could add a deflection bonus equal to your charisma ability modifier, or add an enhancement bonus equal to your charisma ability modifier, but you cannot straight up add your charisma ability modifier to the roll twice.


Goodberry tree for the city's... Transient population.


Heat metal fireless forge (and another one for the bakery).


Hedge maze that is really just a trap that casts maze on those that go through it. The maze is communial for the masses enjoyment.


Chamber pot? More like one way portal to someplace else with lid, amirite? Eh?


Grease for moving heavy loads easier.

Floating disc, likewise

Breeze for an enjoyable AC like effect in a restaurant


QuidEst wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Most sane people want there to be some noise involved with eliminating a sentry or sleeping person. After all the PCs are more likely to be on the receiving end of such tactics than NPCs. It kind of sucks to have a TPK because 1 stealth roll succeeded.
Really? First of all, it's at least two stealth checks (sneak up, and keep the attack quiet) with more for additional PCs. Second of all, if the GM is sending somebody that can silently one-shot PCs (or reliably get initiative to finish the job), that's an issue itself for many groups. I see this coming up for dealing with low-level guards and the like. "Most sane people" is probably a little too strong.

Also wants and wishes compared to reality.

I want my nation to always do the right thing, no one to suffer if possible, there to be plenty for all.

I know that's not what's always going to happen.

Most sane people relying on those sentries or being that sleeping person (or the one beside him) might want that -- I assure you the person doing the eliminating does not, and is just as sane in that desire.


The alchemist could help with either the Engineer or the Sentinel.


Personally Transmutation is one of the schools I would never oppose. To me giving up enchantment is easy -- most of the spells are iffy to start with due to NPC interaction with them and their almost universal attribute of being mind affecting (meaning there are lots of things either flat out immune or with huge bonuses).

Illusion while nice is easy to survive without, in this case I think that and enchantment would make an easy choice.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm pretty confident that any instance in which one person is stabbing another person would be defined as combat.

Ah, so slitting someone's throat in the night is combat?

I think not. It is certainly an attack, but not all attacks are combat.

There are plenty of situations where you might be attacked but not be in combat, especially not noisy, and immediately noticeable from 100 feet away combat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Imbicatus wrote:
The rule was always there. if you chose to houserule or ignore before ultimate intrigue, you can continue to do so after.

But that rule did not suggest that one person being stabbed in a surprise round was a full on battle that could be heard by everyone.

That's the part you are ignoring in your haste to say people are housruling or ignoring what was going on.


Quote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

My thread I referenced earlier has all the FaQs involved listened and is exactly about this issue. Effects have also already been defined to include class abilities, feats, spells, magic items and even favored class bonuses.


Words To favorites for.


Blakmane wrote:
You need to actually use a one-handed slashing weapon, not a slashing weapon which you are holding in one hand.

This is not supported by the FAQs though (which is contradicted by other FAQs) -- see the thread I made for the full details.


We can actually talk about that in the thread I made, because if it was actually that then you could non-proficiency it one-handed which you can't do.


Kazaan wrote:

It's a simple flow of logic:

If you do not have EWP(Bastard Sword), treat a Bastard Sword as a 2-h martial weapon.

That's the reason you can't one-hand the BS if you lack EWP, because the RAW states that if you lack EWP, it no longer counts as its default 1-h weapon but, rather, as a virtual 2-h weapon. You cannot wield a 2-h weapon in one hand (without special abilities). But it is still, at its base, a 1-h exotic weapon.

However, whereas normal 1-h weapons, like the longsword, don't count as 2-h weapons when a rules element calls out specifically using a 2-h weapon (ie. a Longsword, even in 2 hands, can's make a Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings), a Bastard Sword (and other weapons that are treated as 2-h if you lack proficiency) can still be treated as 2-h weapons even if you are proficient. It wouldn't make sense that it gets treated as a virtual 2-h weapon, but loses that ability once you learn how to use it properly. Basically, you make the determination on an attack-by-attack basis. You could make your first attack two-handed as a Pushing Assault, then switch to one-handed to make use of abilities that rely on using a one-handed weapon (ie. Slashing Grace).

So how you would say the weapon interacts with the transformative property?

If I wield it one handed I should be able to turn it into a rapier, but if I wield it two handed I should also be able to turn it into an earthbreaker.

The only weapons I shouldn't be able to emulate would be light weapons. If I put an effortless lace on it I should be able to cover the entire range.

How does this interact with other abilities that allow me to use a weapon one handed and other effects?

Examples include the Jotungrip and phalanx fighter, and again with the effortless lace.

The FAQs I quote state they are how you use them for effects, effects have been defined to include feats and racial abilities as well as magical items.


Bandw2 wrote:
i said that 2 posts ago. ;-;

You know the internet; everyone thinks they can say it better regardless of actual ability to do so!


Another thought on power attack: you could be looking for the better strike instead of the easy strike. The penalty represents the fact you are not taking the first opportunity given but waiting for the much smaller target window you want knowing that if you do hit that target window you are going to hurt them so much more.


Claxon wrote:

False. The bastard sword is always a 1 handed exotic weapon. It just has a special caveat that it can be used a martial weapon if used with 2 hands.

Weapons have specific classifications.

But that doesn't hold due to the second FAQ I quoted, or the third which specifically states it is how you use it.


Or just tell him no, and explain why. Nothing wrong with saying no to what you aren't comfortable with.


Well house rules are that but as to the weapon itself:

Quote:
If you can use the estoc proficiently with one hand, you can also use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls when wielding an estoc sized for you with one or two hands, even though it isn't a light weapon.

You can finesse it regardless of how you use it.


Most estocs tend to taper down to an average thinness of 5/16th of an inch or about the size of a 7.62.

Thrusting it precisely into a vital spot and deep is going to leave quite the wound channel and lots of blood gushing out (I would argue for a bleeding quality to the estoc but that's not here or there).

Regardless it was considered a really nasty and dangerous weapon, because it was precise and powerful.

The combination you simply don't like.

I don't expect you to like it, but it is what it is, and what it is suppose to be and most importantly (in this case) is rules legal.

It is a finesse weapon, it is two handed, and it is designed to be used with powerful two handed attacks. All of which you can do in pathfinder, and is rules legal.


Well the estoc was designed to deliver powerful and accurate two handed thrusts while still being useful as a one-handed weapon and even as a substitute lance.

As I would say it's at least true to life.

Sometimes a weapon is simply very good at what it does.


A very salient point, thank you I forgot that while developing the other thread.

I decided to put all the different and contradictory FAQ's together so we could see them all and try to get some final closure on them.


Blackvial wrote:
the bastard sword is only a one handed weapon if you get the exotic weapons proficiency for it or play a tengu

OR you have another ability that allows you to use it one handed as specifically pointed out by the titan mauler portion of the third FAQ I listed and quoted.

Which again supports the position that how you use it is what it qualifies for.


My understanding is the estoc qualifies.

My explanation of my answer is here.

Basically put the FAQ's regarding the bastard sword support the position that how you use it is what determines what the weapon qualifies for.


10 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

How do I qualify what feats I qualify for with which weapon? Is it based on how I use the weapon, or how the weapon is listed?

Example: The bastard sword is listed as a one-handed exotic weapon, but can be used as a martial two handed weapon. Can I use a bastard sword with slashing grace?

Second Example: Can a phalanx fighter use slashing grace with a polearm that he can use as a one-handed weapon even though it is listed as a two-handed weapon normally?

We have two FAQs that suggest different things. One says the bastard sword is a one handed weapon here

FAQ wrote:

Cleric: Does a cleric, whose deity's favored weapon is the bastard sword, receive free martial or exotic weapon proficiency with the sword?

Since the bastard sword is listed as an exotic weapon, he receives the Exotic Weapon proficiency with the weapon, allowing him to use it one-handed.

and is then contradicted by this FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?

No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)

Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."

Which states that the bastard sword is actually a two handed weapon with an exemption clause.

However the position that a weapon is how you use it is also supported by the last FAQ on bastard swords which kind of cleans the prior two FAQs up in relation to the apparent contradiction:

FAQ wrote:

Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?

A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).

The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

I italicized what I feel are the most important parts. The last paragraph especially since it specifically calls out other abilities that alter the handedness of weapons. This specifically states that how you use it is how you determine effects for the weapon, does this include qualifying for feats?

In other FAQ's we have seen that "other effects" include qualifying for feats, favored class abilities and archetypes as shown in the half-elf and half-orc FAQ:

Quote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

Even this is obviously not clear cut though because the FAQ on the titan mauler specifically does not allow the use of large two-handed weapons as two-handed weapons even though they are one-handed weapons for the titan mauler

FAQ wrote:

Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Does the Jotungrip class feature (page 30) allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?

No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.

Update Page 30, in the titan mauler archetype, in the Jotungrip class feature, in the first sentence, insert the word "melee" between "two-handed" and "weapon."

If this is the case then I would submit that the answer to my question is: The weapon is how it is used for all effects including qualifying for feats and abilities.

Sorry I forgot a part:

The only other FAQs that throws this into question are the one regarding the lance

FAQ wrote:

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?

Yes.

and of course has it's own problems with this FAQ

Quote:

Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?

If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.


A real and accurate description of a weapon with that name though.

Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.


The problem I have is that the social identity has a "so what" factor to it.

At lower levels this isn't as much of an issue, but in a world where the PCs are just "normal joes" it fails because the social identity is less than a "normal joe" normally. It needs some umpf of its own.


Both, comes down to the players, the party, the wish, and the story.

Allowing wish granting still allows room for the wish to fail, be perverted et al.


Jodokai wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Are you aware of what the term "exception that proves the rule" means?

because if you are and you are aware of this FAQ then you would realize that the lance is an exception from the norm, and by being an exception actually proves the rule as it normally is.

And please note the "... and so on" -- they didn't not provide an exclusive list, merely some examples.

And in all those cases they are talking about damage, not being able to apply abilities that only apply to one type of weapon to another weapon just because you're holding it differently. You can't use a lance with Swashbuckler abilities just because you can use it one-handed while charging.

Kalindlara wrote:
The character is already "illegal" by RAW anyway. Otherwhere could just ask his GM. ^_^
If you are talking about the stacking of archetypes, this is a perfectly valid build by RAW according to the FAQ because it is exactly like the Bard example that is allowed.

On your point to Kalindlara == you are wrong (again). The FAQ specifically states that if the base ability is altered nothing else can alter it.

Both Hexcrafter and Bladed scarf dancer alter the arcana ability. They both change the choices you can make as arcana. They do not stack. An increase in options to a base ability is an alteration of that ability and prevents further alteration.

On your first point, everything that the paizo development team has put out has supported the position that how you use the weapon is how you treat it for all interactions with the only exception being the lance while on horse back.


There was an FAQ about this somewhere...


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Also, didn't Paragon Surge get nerfed into only essentially offering one extra spell known per day?
Yes, but that's still enough to be really useful.

Heck, even with that you can still pull that one feat you need right now anyways beyond simple extra spells (please note that you can get 2 extra spells so long as they aren't your highest level which can be even more useful at times).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Trekkie90909 wrote:
CRB; Perception wrote:
Hear the sound of battle DC -10

Stabbing a guy is combat, combat is battle; pretty straightforward. Note that this only lets enemies hear the guy's Wilhelm scream. Nothing prevents you from stealthing afterwards except for the normal stealth rules.

There's even already a similar ability geared towards surprise rounds.

Stabbing a guy is stabbing a guy. Not exactly the same as an actual combat (though it can lead to such).

And if you stab a guy right there won't be a pitched combat...

Quite frankly the idea of the first time someone is attacked puts you in full combat that anyone can hear at a DC of -10 is a bit much.


Jodokai wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

How you wiel it is what the weapon is. So if you don't have exotic weapon proficiency you can't use a bastard sword one handed at all (as per the FAQ), and you can't use a large bastard sword either (also as per the FAQ). However if you have EWP(bastard sword) the bastard sword is a one handed weapon for you, you can do those to previous things and you can take feats for the bastard sword that only work with one handed weapons because it is a one handed weapon for you.

Every FAQ about weapons supports this position and furthers it, including a true exception that proves the rule case the FAQ about...

Actually the FAQ about the lance proves exactly the opposite. It does damage as a two-handed weapon even though you are wielding it 1 handed. That proves it doesn't matter how you hold it. The bastard sword is not the same because it specifically tells you it changes. There is no such wording in the scarf description.

Are you aware of what the term "exception that proves the rule" means?

because if you are and you are aware of this FAQ then you would realize that the lance is an exception from the norm, and by being an exception actually proves the rule as it normally is.

And please note the "... and so on" -- they didn't not provide an exclusive list, merely some examples.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
If I really wanted to get across the flavor of Zuko and the Blue Spirit, I'd want someone who went between "flashy firebending" and "stealthy swordfighting". Sort of a "backstabby" identity and a "magic boomboom" identity. Which, sadly, the current main archetype doesn't much care for, but maybe there'll be archetypes to replace the "social" identity with something closer.

Yeah part of what I don't like is I have but one choice with the current vigilante -- someone that is absolutely mundane then not.

I can't have a spellcaster by day melee master by night.
I can't have a priest by day wizard by night.

Regardless you get mundane day, something else night.


Unfortunately it cannot cover Zuko and the Blue Spirit


Otherwhere wrote:
Slashing Grace wrote:

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

I would GM it that it would allow a Kapenia Dancer to utilize slashing grace because, for that class, the bladed scarf is a one-handed slashing weapon. "[They] can wield it as a one-handed melee weapon."

People are going to argue that the bladed scarf isn't a one-handed melee weapon, and normally that is true. I agree with those that argue that "as a one-handed melee weapon" does make it a one-handed melee weapon for this archetype.

Since this isn't PFS, the RAI of the feat will be sufficient for my character to use it. (The GM also likes "DEX to damage" as it is because he typically plays DEX-based characters.)

So, given that this will in all likelihood be allowed, what best utilizes the Kapenia Dancer's abilities? Flamoyant Arcana, check. What else? A Frostbite+Rime build?

How you wield it is what the weapon is. So if you don't have exotic weapon proficiency you can't use a bastard sword one handed at all (as per the FAQ), and you can't use a large bastard sword either (also as per the FAQ). However if you have EWP(bastard sword) the bastard sword is a one handed weapon for you, you can do those to previous things and you can take feats for the bastard sword that only work with one handed weapons because it is a one handed weapon for you.

Every FAQ about weapons supports this position and furthers it, including a true exception that proves the rule case the FAQ about the lance.


My off the cuff would be that instant alchemy (the feat) is not the "normal" crafting time since it is 'spontaneous alchemy' not 'normal alchemy' and therefore wouldn't interact with swift alchemy or instant alchemy (the class ability).

That doesn't feel 100% to me though.


Got to agree with Turgan here.

You definitely have an effective sorcerer level with the feats, and that would be adjusted by the robes.

The only question in my mind is if eldritch heritage counts has having the bloodline.

Related question(s):

If eldritch heritage does count as having a bloodline how does this bloodline interact with the arcanist's Bloodline Development exploit?

If a sorcerer has eldritch heritage do the robes work with the feat then?


Continuing:

Quote:
A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round.

Nothing about rage does any of that. You can still take a free action to maintain it, you are not killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious or otherwise prevented from taking that free action.

I will agree that there are some specific performances you cannot do.

For example distraction requires a perform skill check -- you can't do that while raging. Countersong requires a perform skill check, again you can't do that while raging.

Since you can rage while not in combat you could use fascinate though.

Suggestion is a spell like ability and since you can foil the concentration for those I could definitely see an argument that you couldn't use it. Same with mass suggestion and frightening tune

However inspire courage (and the rest of the performances) is supernatural and we know from dragon totem wings (a supernatural ability) that you can use a standard action to use a supernatural ability while raging. So it is still on the table, especially since it doesn't require any sort of skill check to start.

That covers simply starting though, maintaining shouldn't be any problem since it's a free action that does not require concentration and cannot be disrupted.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

saying something that does not require concentration requires concentration is silly.

pointing out that a free action requires no effort or concentration is valid.

pointing out that it is the same action type, level of effort and level of patience and concentration as is needed to maintain rage should not be neccesary, but apparently is.

Also your last statement suggests people are making an argument that they are not. No one said only spells require patience and concentration only that maintain a bardic does not.

PRD says it only takes a minimal amount of time and effort to do; it can still require some form of concentration.

But at this point, I can't properly express my sentiments on the matter, so to that, I say we've reached an impasse. Suggesting that the Rage clause should be treated no different than determining Death Effects, however, is suspect to say the least.

Which I didn't do.


Fair point weirdo I stand corrected. Rage does not require actions to maintain, only to drop out of it (free action).

I like your grappling point too.


saying something that does not require concentration requires concentration is silly.

pointing out that a free action requires no effort or concentration is valid.

pointing out that it is the same action type, level of effort and level of patience and concentration as is needed to maintain rage should not be neccesary, but apparently is.

Also your last statement suggests people are making an argument that they are not. No one said only spells require patience and concentration only that maintain a bardic does not.


What strikes me as odd is that concealed casting can leave you where your foe can aoo you for a spell they don't know comes from you.

I would make it situational based on the attitude of the creatures facing you. If you succeed on the check you do not provoke and the spell is not realized as coming from you.

Then have another talent that allows the limit free use of still and silent spell a couple of times a day.


Read the description of what a free action is.

There is a huge difference between concentrating on a spell and a free action to maintain a performance, and just as big a difference between a standard action and a free action.

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