Hey folks,
tl;dr version up front: My question is, can a cleric realistically stay on the front lines both taking, and giving damage at the high levels (lvl 12+)?
Longer version:
I am playing in a group with 2 summoners, a rogue, and an on again, off again ranger. That means I'm on the hook to be tank and healer, and my preferred play style is damage dealer. If I had my way I'd be playing a Magus or Fighter/Wiz/EK, but I am trying to put the needs of the group ahead of my own preferences, and trying to broaded my horizons at the same time. I didn't want a Paladin because I am the only healer, and I don't want to be an Oracle because I want lvl 9 casting, and I think the tactics/growth cleric domain powers exceed the battle mysteries.
So, I settled on pure Cleric moving into Grey Gardner. Specifically Cleric 9 / GG 10 / Cleric 1, with an emphasis on two weapon fighting so that I can keep my shield equipped and maybe not die. We are only 3 levels in, but so far she has been WRECKING chit, ending most encounters nearly single-handedly. I think TWF with double bane and sneak attack will keep her doing pretty sick damage indefinitely, but I'm not too sure she will be able to live through the counter offensive.
My character concept is she is a Rorschach like character who through her adventures and the Mythic rules will become the new Goddess of Justice. And maybe war. ;)
We rolled 6 times and I got pretty dang lucky. I chose an Oread because of the +2 str/wis, and I ended up with:
18 Str
12 INT
16 Con
15 Chr
17 Dex
20 Wis
Oread: Fertile Soil / Granite Skin
+1 Caster Level to Plant Domain Spells / +1 Natural AC
Spirit of the Midnight Sun (Homebrew deity)-Falcata as it's chosen weapon
War (Tactician) / Plant (Growth) Domains
-War gives initiative boost, and infinite combat feats at lvl 8.
-Growth lets me hulk out and grow essentially on command.
Feats
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
3 Improved Shield Bash
5 Power Attack
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Improved 2-Weapon Fighting
11 Shield Slam
13 Double Bane
13 GG Bonus – Gang Up
15 Hold for Shield Master at 16 (?)
15 GG Bonus – Vital Strike
17 Greater 2-weapon Fighting
17 GG Bonus – Dasterdly Finish
19 Improved Vital Strike
And finally, this is my projected BAB (not counting TWF attacks)
BAB
1 0
2 +1
3 +2
4 +3
5 +3
6 +4
7 +5
8 +6/+1
9 +6/+1
10 +6/+1 GG
11 +7/+2
12 +8/+3
13 +9/+4
14 +9/+4
15 +10/+5
16 +11/+6/+1
17 +12/+7/+2
18 +12/+7/+2
19 +13/+8/+3
20 +14/+9/+4 (Cleric)
If you read (or even skimmed) all this, I salute you, and welcome your advice.
|
At levels 12+ your AC will need to be really high for it to be effective. Like 35+ or more the closer to 40 the better. That is why HP at higher levels matter more then what your AC is. In order to get your AC up that high you normally reduce the amount of damage you do. The other thing with levels 12+ DR. With two weapon fighting it is very hard to brake DR. And still have a high damage out put. That is why most people will tell you two handed weapon is better. Don't get me wrong two weapon fighting is my preferred fighting style. Just need to know it's limitations and the advantages.
With rolling like you did any character will do well at low level. Stats matter more then any thing else. How ever as you level up if your not focused on one thing. You will start to have problems as your spell DC or your to hit bonus can not keep up.
Now as for the cleric over oracle. I have run many test plays for this with different builds and levels. It comes down to how many encounters you do in a day. With the normal 4 encounters / day clerics do a little better then the oracle. Any thing over that the Oracle dose much better then the cleric. With a party of all casters you will only handle 4 encounters because every one will be out of spells. If your in a party of mostly combat characters oracle will do much better as you will be looking to do more then 4 encounters a day.
I prefer oracles over clerics for two reasons. There are only a hand full of really good cleric spells. For all the remove X spells your better off wanding them any how. Two revelations are much more focused then domain powers. This means you do not have wasted powers out side of what you want to focus on.
This is just a suggestion.
Human
Cleric (Divine Strategist)
Str 20
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 12
Domain : Animal (Fur)
Feet's: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
3: Power Attack
5: Boon Companion
Thanks for your input!
Funny that you said that, since initially I had the animal/feather domain, and picked up boon companion because I was going to go into mounted combat riding on a tiger.
Then Paths of Prestige came out and I fell in love with the Grey Gardner concept. TWF with Double Bane, Sneak Attack and the Gang Up feat just seems like a reciepe for the other rogue and I to disassemble things with the quickness.
What do you think of the 'toughness' feat? The payoff seems awfully small to waste a feat on, but if it's better than dying, lol.
|
|
If your a fighter toughness should be a feet you take. Other then that few other characters have enough feet's to make it worth taken.
The cost of 3 caster levels is harsh. You better be sure it's something that you want to do. I personally don't like most PRC. As most of the time your better off staying single class. If your going to multi-class and most definitely if your going in to a PRC. You can wreck your character and not find out until it's to late it dose not work as you want.
|
Just a little curious... you have 2 Summoners in the party and neither of them can tank???
Can we have a little more info here?
BTW, if the party needs a healer with restoration and remove spells AND still take the front lines in battle, then a Cleric is better, as they have access to all the spells and can prepare them as needed.
yes, two Summoners, a Rogue, and a Cleric (me).
Theoreticaly their Eidolons can tank I guess, but I guess they aren't sturdy enough at low levels? I really don't know much about the class, but it seems like the Eidolons have been non-factors so far since the mobs are dropping so fast between the rogue and I. I suppose I prefer to tank so I can know it's being done right, lol. Most of the damage has been directed at me thus far, so I have been casting buffs and just channel healing in between encounters.
I'm not intending to go into GG until level 10, so I have a ways to decide if it's what I want. I know it's non-optimal, but it just seems cool as hell. This AP we are doing is probably going to terminate around 16-17, but by then the mythic rules will be out and we may want push on to 20 and beyond. Or we'll have a TPK and have to start from scratch with someone else tanking/healing, lol.
Especially since the DM has been having to tune up the encounters to offset our groups' action economy, it's inevitable we are going to get squashed, and the front line is where the hammer will fall the hardest.
|
You can focus on using a Heavy Shield two handed.
You will want the Consecrated Shield Channel Foci as then your shield will be your Divine Focus.
Improved Shield Bash will make this work. Heavy Armor Proficiency is another choice feat.
If you choose, an alternate heritage Aasimar is a good choice.
I suggest a Middle-Aged Archon-Blooded Aasimar with the Immortal Spark and Scion of Humanity alternate racial traits.
|
|
BTW, if the party needs a healer with restoration and remove spells AND still take the front lines in battle, then a Cleric is better, as they have access to all the spells and can prepare them as needed.
All of that you should have wands and or scrolls for. There is no way a cleric or oracle has enough castings per day to remove all the effects from all party. You could spend days resting if you encounter something with ability damage before you have enough spells to remove all the damage. Case in point my home game just fought something with ability damage. With two druids and one paladin 2 days of rest was required to have enough lesser restorations to take care of the ability damage. The only reason for not haven a wand for the group. We encountered a swarm with a blinding effect. So the group decided we need a wand of remove blindness. So there was not enough left for a lesser restoration wand. I play divine caster 75% of the time. There are things I have taken to making the party buy to keep us going.
My list of required items. It is cheaper to have them, and keep going then 1-4 days of down time.
Wand Cure Light Wounds (Start with one. Will use up 5-7 by level 5.)
Wand of Lesser Restoration (Will use up one before level 10.)
Wand of Remove Cure (Will only ever need one.)
Wand of Remove Blindness/Deafness (Will only ever need one.)
Scrolls Restoration (Will start with 4. By level 10 will use up 1-4. Going from level 10-15 will use up 10-15 scrolls.)
For most adventures, a few scrolls of Remove Blindness should be sufficient.
You're using a light shield I take it, to leave a hand free for casting?
Quicken spell might be good at higher level, for things like Divine Favour.
You're using a light shield I take it, to leave a hand free for casting?
I use a light shield to hit things in the face with, without incurring more than -2 attack. Eventually when my BAB is higher I'll switch to a heavier one.
I appreciate all the input (and please keep it coming); I don't know how much those wands and scrolls cost, but the group has accumulated some gold so I'll make sure we invest properly.
Blackblood...I don't know what any of that means, but I am intrigued; I could probably pull off a race change with good reason since I am quasi rebooting with GM permission. But could you point me towards the rules on using a shield as a 2H weapon? I have seen it alluded to, but nothing concrete.
Kind of like 2 shield fighting, I have yet to see it put anywhere official as being 100% legit.
Thanks again, you are all *champions*!
|
|
A Heavy Shield is weapon, a one-handed weapon, and can be wielded with two hands, just like other one-handed weapons.
A shield can be both a Sanctified Shield and a Consecrated Weapon. As a Channel Foci, your shield will also be a Holy Symbol.
Are you choosing Aasimar? It is a strong choice.
A Heavy Shield is weapon, a one-handed weapon, and can be wielded with two hands, just like other one-handed weapons.
A shield can be both a Sanctified Shield and a Consecrated Weapon. As a Channel Foci, your shield will also be a Holy Symbol.Are you choosing Aasimar? It is a strong choice.
I think Oread: Fertile Soil / Granite Skin works better for what I'm trying to do, due to the +1 Caster Level to Plant Domain Spells (for grow) / +1 Natural AC (to live).
The shield stuff, however, is excellent advice and I'm all over it. Thank you!