You are able to increase the DC by 5 for not knowing the spell, but that doesn't allow you to avoid needing the material components. In essence, +5 to the DC lets you pretend that you have the spell for the purposes of crafting the item, so you would still need access to the spell level needed for that spell and the material components.
The 5% discount only applies to basic crafting costs and does not include material components--If the spell requires 26000gp worth of diamond dust to make it work, I can tell you right now that being a Hedge Magician doesn't allow you to "somehow" make it work with less than that.
I don't think you're going to find a RAW quote that specifically states that Hedge Magician doesn't reduce the cost of material components, so you're likely going to be stuck with RAI, which is simple common sense. If a spell requires X to work, then a magic item using that spell still requires X to work. If Hedge Magician allowed you to reduce material component costs by 5%, then it wouldn't apply just to crafted items.
As far as the alignment/class restriction discounts, same logic applies. Materials needed are materials needed. Additionally, players are not supposed to take advantage of that class/alignment restriction discount to cheese the system into getting items for less. If you are a DM making an item then that's fine, but if you're a player who's simply trying to make "Chaotic-restricted, requires-sorcerer Robe of the Archmagi" so that you can make it for less then you're using the rules/guidelines outside of operational parameters.
The reason I ask is the material component of the wish/miracle spell involved in the creation - which really isn't needed, as it would just up the crafting DC by +5 for not meeting the requirement.
A +1 Tome of Clear Thought has Construction Requirements: "Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish"
While you can increase the DC by five to not meet the spell prerequisite, that just means the spell (miracle or wish) doesn't have to be known by the item's creator or available via ally or magic item.
Magic supplies (the price you pay to create the item) is not a prerequisite you can skip by increasing the DC by 5.
Magic Item Creation: "In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
Creating Wondrous Items: "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation."
The material component is not used up by the triggering of the prepared spell (which can be skipped via +5 DC) but is instead used up in the price you pay for the magic supplies (base price+price of material components)
So the 5% reduction from hedge magician effects both base crafting cost and the material component cost?Hedge Magician states "Whenever you craft a magic item, you reduce the cost of gp required to make the item by 5%".Magic Item Creation: "In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
That's how I read it. Basically take whatever price it says in the book and multiply by .95 and that's how much a hedge magician can make it for. Assuming all rolls are made:
+5 book = 131,250gp for most X.95 = 124,687.5 gp for a hedge magician.
So the 5% reduction from hedge magician effects both base crafting cost and the material component cost?Hedge Magician states "Whenever you craft a magic item, you reduce the cost of gp required to make the item by 5%".Magic Item Creation: "In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
I fully disagree with this interpretation.
Market value is calculated from the magic items chart based on the abilities used.
Base value (craft value) is 1/2 market value.
If the spells have a material component, you add the full cost of that onto the base value.
If you have Hedge Magician you would reduce the Base Value by 5% PRIOR to adding the material cost.
The spell needs X to work when cast. It should still need X to work when crafted, not 0.95X.
So the 5% reduction from hedge magician effects both base crafting cost and the material component cost?
Pretty much, yeah.
Hedge Magician affects "the required gp cost to make the item"
and "some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
So if "the cost to create the item" is the same as "the required gp cost to make the item" then that's what it affects.
The Tome of Clear Thought +1 should cost you 24,937.5 gp. (95% of 26,250 gp)
So the 5% reduction from hedge magician effects both base crafting cost and the material component cost?Pretty much, yeah.
Hedge Magician affects "the required gp cost to make the item"
and "some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
So if "the cost to create the item" is the same as "the required gp cost to make the item" then that's what it affects.
The Tome of Clear Thought +1 should cost you 24,937.5 gp. (95% of 26,250 gp)
Addding emphasis. Plus we're only talking about 5%. hardly game breaking.
Addding emphasis. Plus we're only talking about 5%. hardly game breaking.
Hedge Magician affects "the required gp cost to make the item"
and "some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
gp)
Once again:
Market value is calculated from the magic items chart based on the abilities used.
Base value (craft value) is generally 1/2 market value.
If the spells have a material component, you add the full cost of that onto the base value.
For example, a level 5 scroll is 1125 gp. A Scroll of Raise Dead (level 5 spell) is 6125 gp due to the materials needed. When crafting said scroll, you don't craft it at 3062.5gp, you craft it at 5562.5gp. The cost of the material component doesn't change when you calculate the crafting costs because the spell doesn't work without that material. (You can't logically argue that your deity decides that you don't need as much diamond dust simply because you have a trait.) If you always reduced the material components cost by 50% by including it in the market value pre-multiplication then there would be much explanation needed as to why you technically only need 2500gp worth of diamond dust to cast the spell from a scroll when you need 5000gp to cast it normally.
With that in mind, it's obvious that any reductions to cost are done to the value pre-material components.
Normal crafting = {Market Value (w/o material components) * 50%} + Material Components
Hedge Mage = {Market Value (w/o material components) * 45%} + Material Components
Honestly, if I can reduce the material components needed for spells by 5% using Hedge Magician when crafting, then it stands to reason that I can use the same trait to reduce the material components needed when I'm simply casting a spell. Be careful what road you walk down here...
Edit: The original poster gives a perfect example that proves that the material component cost doesn't change when calculating base value from market value.
Addding emphasis. Plus we're only talking about 5%. hardly game breaking.
Hedge Magician affects "the required gp cost to make the item"
and "some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
gp)
Once again:
Market value is calculated from the magic items chart based on the abilities used.
**stuff**
Edit: Disregard. I see what you're saying.
And just because you can reduce the cost of making items doesn't mean you can do the same with cast spells. After all, cast spells don't take 8 hours/day to cast, and are limited to 1000 gp/day. There's two totally different mechanics going on.
I suppose I could give you a 5% discount if you wanted that Wish spell to take 12.5 days to cast, and you didn't do anything else in the meantime to interrupt the casting, if you have this trait.
==Aelryinth
Market value is calculated from the magic items chart based on the abilities used.
Base value (craft value) is generally 1/2 market value.
If the spells have a material component, you add the full cost of that onto the base value.
Correct. This means the cost to create those items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components.
The cost to create a tome of clear thought +1 is 26,250 gp.
Hedge Magician reduces "the required gp cost to make the item"
It doesn't reduce the base price of the item, it doesn't reduce the market price minus the component costs, it reduces the cost to make the item.
The cost to make the item is defined in the rules. "The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components."
That is the required gp cost to make the item. That is what is reduced by Hedge Magician.
For example, a level 5 scroll is 1125 gp. A Scroll of Raise Dead (level 5 spell) is 6125 gp due to the materials needed. When crafting said scroll, you don't craft it at 3062.5gp, you craft it at 5562.5gp.
Scrolls are not Wondrous Items. They use different rules.
Creating Scrolls: "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
When creating the scroll you use up the material component as part of expending the spell. It is not part of the gp cost to create the item.
Wondrous items don't use up the material, they subsume the cost of the material in the materials needed to create the item.
Honestly, if I can reduce the material components needed for spells by 5% using Hedge Magician when crafting, then it stands to reason that I can use the same trait to reduce the material components needed when I'm simply casting a spell. Be careful what road you walk down here...
This is not a logical conclusion.
Let me try this another way:
Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. the cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components.
So generally cost is 1/2 market value unless otherwise indicated and unless it is otherwise increased by spell components.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components.
So the item's true costs becomes a compound formula where the final result is "cost + components", but in actuality the item's cost is the cost prior to the components with an additional value tacked on after all calculations are done in order to cover the cost of the spell.
The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The item requires wish/miracle. Wish/miracle requires 25000gp worth of diamond dust to cast. You have to cast/trigger the spell to craft the item. You cannot cast/trigger the spell without 25000gp worth of diamond dust. You cannot cast Wish/Miracle in any way, shape, or form without 25000gp worth of diamond dust. That's how much is needed to make the spell work.
Q.E.D. You cannot reduce the cost of the material components needed for casting a spell, regardless of your feats/traits, because the spells require a certain amount of material parts to work.
If you were a dm and a player said "I am going to craft a Tome of Clear Thoughts, the spell requires 25000gp of diamond dust but I only need 23750 gp worth of diamond dust due to my trait that reduces crafting costs", the very first question asked in response should be "how do you plan to cast a spell without all of the required spell components?"
Aeryn,
You're on your own on this one. I've yet to see anyone agree with your assessment.
I would just take the market price (which includes components) and multiply by .95. That's what the feat is for and that's what the rules say. Anything else you read into it is now RAW, though you're free to houserule whatever else you like.
To create a scroll of Raise Dead, you need "a supply of choice writing materials" worth 562.5 gp (12.5gp x 5 x 9).
You also need to have prepared (or know) the spell Raise Dead.
As soon as you begin writing, you consume the material component (diamond worth 5,000 gp) and it triggers the prepared spell (or slot).
When you're done, you've used up 562.5gp in "materials" and 5,000gp in diamond.
To create a Tome of Clear Thought +1, you need some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item, and "a supply of materials." The cost of any material component is "subsumed in the cost for creating the item". This means to make the tome, you need "materials" worth 26,250 gp and you need to have prepared (or know) miracle or wish. When you begin working on the item, it triggers the prepared spell (or slot) and when you're done, you've used up 26,250 gp worth of "materials."
Hedge Magician reduces the required gp cost to make the item. For the scroll, that's the 562.5gp in "materials" you used. For the Tome, that's the 26,250 gp worth of "materials" you used.
Wands, Staves, Scrolls, Potions, and Magic Armor require you actually have and use the material component. (or multiple copies of the material component)
Wondrous items, rods, rings, and magic weapons are special in that you don't actually provide the material component, you only use the cost of that component as part of your materials.
If you were a dm and a player said "I am going to craft a Tome of Clear Thoughts, the spell requires 25000gp of diamond dust but I only need 23750 gp worth of diamond dust due to my trait that reduces crafting costs", the very first question asked in response should be "how do you plan to cast a spell without all of the required spell components?"
I would expect the answer to be "I don't actually cast the spell, I only trigger it, and following the rules on Creating Wondrous Items, I need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require.
She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item.
Materials needs is abstract. The definition of "subsumed" is "Include or absorb (something) in something else". Re-stated, "the material cost of the spells needed is included in the material cost needed for the item".
Materials needed includes the spell components. Just because you're not expending the material cost as part of the spell casting process doesn't mean it's not needed.Your Tome of Clear Thought +1 has 25,000gp added onto the cost. This is a material cost. The exact material needed isn't stated, but it quite obviously is diamond dust. I can't use 25,000gp worth of wool as part of the tome's creation simply because "materials" was left as an abstract. Beyond that, you need 2,500gp worth of other materials, such as the book itself, whatever inks are needed, etc.
If you look at the pricing chart for magic items, you'll see:
Spell has material component cost --> Add directly into price of item per charge
You're adding that cost directly into the price per charge (in this case, each +1 that the tome offers is a charge) because that's how many "castings" of the spell is needed. "Add directly" implies that this value can never change. Ever.
The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
So you are expending spell energy, but you are not actually casting the spell. It stands to reason that each fractional casting of the spell allows you to shape a little more of the material component into the item. In Grick's example above (responding to my ill-chosen scroll example), he explains that a crafted item that consumes the material component right away would do just that, consume it right away. However, a wondrous item doesn't consume the spell component right away, but it still has materials including the spell components needed.
This is based on your logic:
To take this a step farther, I can easily craft a custom wondrous item called "Globe of Raise Dead". It will be a single use spell completion item, so the cost will start at 1125 (same as the scroll). Add on 5000gp in "materials" to cover the spell component cost and the cost to craft 562.5+5000gp, or Cost=5562.5. But wait, I have Hedge Magician, so I reduce the cost by 5%, making it 5284.375gp. I can't do this same maneuver with a scroll, because a scroll actually casts the spell, requiring the spell components up front. But since this is a Wondrous Item and it doesn't spell out in the rules that you need the material components as part of the "materials", I can not only circumvent the need for Scribe Scroll, but I can craft it for slightly less cost than the scroll would have been.
This is based on my logic:
Same wondrous item, but this time the 5% discount is only applied to the 562.5gp (for both the wondrous item and the scroll). The discount won't apply to the 5000gp of dust needed.
Suddenly, the costs come out the same.
Aeryn,
The stuff you're bolding is proving the point of the opposition.
Aeryn,
The stuff you're bolding is proving the point of the opposition.
I'm not sure that you're understanding what I'm writing then. Perhaps I'm not phrasing it properly. The bolded parts that I'm selecting are proving my point quite well.
She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item.
Subsumed = to become part of.
Subsumed in the price to create = market price.
Either way, at this point I'm just going to agree to disagree. Magical crafting rules have needed an overhaul for quite some time to fix gray areas, and this is clearly another gray area. If you're all able to read it one way and interpret it that way and I'm able to read it another way, then the RAW is ambiguously written and it's up to RAI on this one.
Grick/Coffee Golem, I always respect your opinions and input on topics, but on this one I'm going to have to say that until a dev straight up tells me that I'm wrong, I'm not going to be convinced of an error. As I stated above, due to how the rules are worded, you can included 25,000gp worth of wool as the materials for crafting due to the fact that the materials cost is only based on the cost of the material components, not what they actually are. Illogical.
Well, you're trying to argue that the material cost of the spell is not a part of the cost of creating an item. You're trying to say that it's a cost of casting the spell, which is totally and utterly seperate from including it in the cost of the spell.
The rules clearly state that expensive costs of comps are included in the cost to make a magic item, so your argument isn't flying with anyone else here. You're trying to make an artificial inclusion of spellcasting rules into crafting rules, when it's a very all-inclusive statement you're trying to argue against.
You're arguing against a pretty minor effect, all things told...at that level, 5% of costs is pocket change.
==Aelryinth
Either way, at this point I'm just going to agree to disagree. Magical crafting rules have needed an overhaul for quite some time to fix gray areas, and this is clearly another gray area. If you're all able to read it one way and interpret it that way and I'm able to read it another way, then the RAW is ambiguously written and it's up to RAI on this one.
Grick/Coffee Golem, I always respect your opinions and input on topics, but on this one I'm going to have to say that until a dev straight up tells me that I'm wrong, I'm not going to be convinced of an error.
I never suggested crafting wasn't in need of an overhaul. I'm just saying the rules as written are not as you say.
Odd as it sounds actually being able to cast the spell and the creation of a magic item that uses said spell are not directly related.
Either way, at this point I'm just going to agree to disagree. Magical crafting rules have needed an overhaul for quite some time to fix gray areas, and this is clearly another gray area. If you're all able to read it one way and interpret it that way and I'm able to read it another way, then the RAW is ambiguously written and it's up to RAI on this one.
Grick/Coffee Golem, I always respect your opinions and input on topics, but on this one I'm going to have to say that until a dev straight up tells me that I'm wrong, I'm not going to be convinced of an error. As I stated above, due to how the rules are worded, you can included 25,000gp worth of wool as the materials for crafting due to the fact that the materials cost is only based on the cost of the material components, not what they actually are. Illogical.
Actually, I believe the wording is that you have to include the COST of the material components, or multiples thereof, you don't actually need the material components themselves. Therefore, as long as you have 25k in gold to represent the diamond dust or whatever you are using as an alternate component, it's good.
Remember, a large part of the 'formula' aspect of item creation is now hand-waved. It's a big change from earlier editions, where EVERY mage had their own unique way of creating the same object.
==Aelryinth
Actually, I believe the wording is that you have to include the COST of the material components, or multiples thereof, you don't actually need the material components themselves. Therefore, as long as you have 25k in gold to represent the diamond dust or whatever you are using as an alternate component, it's good.
Remember, a large part of the 'formula' aspect of item creation is now hand-waved. It's a big change from earlier editions, where EVERY mage had their own unique way of creating the same object. If the formula said 25k of wool,you'd use it...but it's abstracted and we don't have to pay attention to that, anymore.
==Aelryinth