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Alright: Let me preface this by stating that this is NOT my attempt to break the system. This is simply a 'holy crap I hadn't thought of this before' moment that Im curious to hear other people's opinions on.
Player has Improved Familiar and the improved familiar has regeneration (there are two improved familiars with regeneration).
Player uses Imbue with Spell Ability to grant familiar the spell Shield Other. Alternately, familiar with UMD uses a wand of Shield Other.
Familiar then casts Shield Other on the melee PC of choice.
Familiar sucks up potentially hundreds of points of damage (being unconcious most of this time) but never dies.
Question: Can anyone point out ANYTHING that would make this scenario incorrect?
Note: There are a couple of ways for this scenario to be set up (either via a cleric with a familiar or via the familiar making use of UMD and just casting shield other that way) so please do not debate that element.
Note 2: The familiar's HD (for the purposes of Imbue with Spell Ability) is considered the same as the Master's HD:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
- Gauss
P.S. My way to houserule this combo into oblivion is to state that regenerate would not function for shield other damage.
I would say with the wording being the the wounds are transferred is that it would bypass the nonlethal portion of regen. So someone could use the familiar as a damage soak of shield other, but it would be more like fast healing and less like regen in this case.
I would agree with you Matthias except for the following line:
Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0).
Also, the 'nonlethal portion of regen' no longer exists. That is 3.5 regen. PF regen did away with that. Regen got a significant overhaul in the conversion from 3.5 to PF.
3.5 Regen: damage was converted to nonlethal and then the nonlethal was healed at a given rate. Certain damage forms did 'normal' damage that cannot be healed via regeneration.
PF regen: Damage is NOT converted to nonlethal. It is healed at a given rate. Certain damage forms shut regeneration down for 1 round. The creature cannot die from damage unless it has damage in excess of it's HPs+Constitution score AND its regeneration has been shut down.
- Gauss
Still occasionally run into those 3.5 -> PF changes that i miss. Well in that case I would just houserule that this type of damage bypasses the creatures regen and stops it for the round following the attack.
Edit: Also, since shield other and imbue with spell ability are cleric spells, would be difficult for most familiar classes to actively use this combo
Matthias: Perhaps I should have started with Improved Familiar +Shield Other which is completely possible for ALL familiar using classes via UMD or a friendly cleric.
So to restate the premise:
Premise 1: Improved Familiar (with regen) + UMD +casting Shield Other on another person.
Premise 2: Improved Familiar (with regen) + Imbue with Spell Ability + casting Shield other on another person.
Note: Premise 2 does not require the Master to be a cleric/oracle. Any cleric/oracle can give the familiar the ability to case Shield Other.
Both premises result in the same thing. An unkillable Familiar acting as a damage sponge.
- Gauss
Edit: Matthias, I would also houserule the same thing.
Alright: Let me preface this by stating that this is NOT my attempt to break the system. This is simply a 'holy crap I hadn't thought of this before' moment that Im curious to hear other people's opinions on.
Player has Improved Familiar and the improved familiar has regeneration (there are two improved familiars with regeneration).
Player uses Imbue with Spell Ability to grant familiar the spell Shield Other. Alternately, familiar with UMD uses a wand of Shield Other.
Familiar then casts Shield Other on the melee PC of choice.
Familiar sucks up potentially hundreds of points of damage (being unconcious most of this time) but never dies.
Question: Can anyone point out ANYTHING that would make this scenario incorrect?
Note: There are a couple of ways for this scenario to be set up (either via a cleric with a familiar or via the familiar making use of UMD and just casting shield other that way) so please do not debate that element.
Note 2: The familiar's HD (for the purposes of Imbue with Spell Ability) is considered the same as the Master's HD:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.- Gauss
P.S. My way to houserule this combo into oblivion is to state that regenerate would not function for shield other damage.
Most monsters don't have a way to deal with regeneration so until you get to high levels this seems easy to abuse.
However I do believe in having my bad guys escape and report info to the higher ups. The bad guys let the familiar go unconscious, and then suddenly pull out the solution to the regen. Against humanoids with class levels, and gear I think this is less likely to always work. I would probably lure the target of the Shield Other into a false sense of security. Cut off his source of extra HP, and lay him out.
True, but until then..holy crap! Also, near as I can figure it is PFS legal. That would break PFS games as I understand them. However, since I don't play PFS it is only my reading of the PFS rules and what I have heard from PFS players that I am basing this off of.
One thing: The familiar can be stuck in a (normal) bag...nobody aware of it while it is taking that damage. If they cannot see it they cannot report it.
Anyhow, just an interesting thought I had tonight. And one which will never see the light of day at my table.
Oh one other thing: if they did do as you suggest (finding a way to kill the familiar) it would only be a week and 200gp*level until the player had a new one. Then again, at that point maybe I as GM would engineer a surprising absence when the PC called for his familiar.
- Gauss
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I can imagine your familiar not being too happy to do this if fights break out every 5 minutes. I am unfamiliar with familiars to much, but if they are pets they might leave you? Not to mention that some good inclined wizard or such wouldn't like his pet being harmed so much.
Other then some roleplaying reasons I don't see it being mechanically wrong.
Fact that it's PFS wise doesn't mean to much. NPCs can focus other players.
Malag:
I agree on a RP level there are problems here. Getting the familiar to do it a second time is definitely a trick. As for good aligned: there are only two Improved Familiars with regen that I am familiar with (pun intended). One is LN (Arbiter) and the other is LE (Augur). Pushing your familiar to repeatedly do this might be within the realm of either alignment.
As for PFS: "NPCs can focus other players"? Not sure what you meant by this phrase.
- Gauss
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@Gauss
If they notice that player isn't taking any or is taking little damage they might switch targets. Often in scenario's I can see tactics sections which say that monsters attack weakest targets first. That's what I meant.
Also, PC needs to be able to issue an order/trick to a familiar. Early Silence or knockdown can prevent them from speaking, but this is already counter talking I guess.
Gauss,
I don't think it is as bad as you think it is.
It is not more effective than a healer in the group keeping the melee specialist healed up. Sneakier, yes, but not more effective.
Also, the melee specialist needs to stay withing 25' of the familiar, or the spell ends. A lot more challenging to do. No more charges, moving ahead to block the exit, simply looking over something while the familiar moves on to the next room, etc...
Dispel magic would also cause a few problems with it - one of my first insincts when I realize someone isn't taking as much damage as they should.
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@Gauss
If they notice that player isn't taking any or is taking little damage they might switch targets. Often in scenario's I can see tactics sections which say that monsters attack weakest targets first. That's what I meant.
Also, PC needs to be able to issue an order/trick to a familiar. Early Silence or knockdown can prevent them from speaking, but this is already counter talking I guess.
Actually you are mistaken here. If you were talking about Animal Companions you'd need to worry about orders or tricks but we are talking about familiars here. Sentient extensions of a casters will designed to serve and obey. Druids and rangers have to deal with companions that can up and leave them, familiars don't have that option.
Mistwalker:
The melee specialist could carry the familiar in his backpack safely out of sight.
OR
The familiar can be invisible.
OR
The familiar can use a rod of reach (if granted via imbue with spell ability) and increase the range to 100+10/level.
Second, Dispel magic doesnt work that well. Amongst several spells dispel magic has available to dispel it would have to hit this particular one. IF they are all cast at the same level it is a crapshoot on which one you hit (unless targeting it in which case you would have to know about the shield other spell).
As for effectiveness the cleric would not have to heal anyone if the cleric is not the hp sponge (splitting damage with the fighter type). That increases his action economy and thus gives him the ability to do something else. Ultimately, that is the main benefit to this (during combat).
The second benefit is that post combat less hps require healing since the improved familiar with regen will heal all of that damage on his own.
- Gauss
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It is a nice trick but not really that big of a deal. All it's going to do is give whoever is being beaten on an extra 2-3 rounds of life. Now that can be useful but not game breaking.
The guy being beaten on is now taking half damage you just need to hit him a few more times to drop him. Since the regen isn't shared and it doesn't do anything for effects that don't JUST cause HP damage it's a nice buff but no more effective then a good Vampiric Touch worth of temp hit points is all.
Alright: Let me preface this by stating that this is NOT my attempt to break the system. This is simply a 'holy crap I hadn't thought of this before' moment that Im curious to hear other people's opinions on.
Player has Improved Familiar and the improved familiar has regeneration (there are two improved familiars with regeneration).
Player uses Imbue with Spell Ability to grant familiar the spell Shield Other. Alternately, familiar with UMD uses a wand of Shield Other.
Familiar then casts Shield Other on the melee PC of choice.
Familiar sucks up potentially hundreds of points of damage (being unconcious most of this time) but never dies.
Question: Can anyone point out ANYTHING that would make this scenario incorrect?
Note: There are a couple of ways for this scenario to be set up (either via a cleric with a familiar or via the familiar making use of UMD and just casting shield other that way) so please do not debate that element.
Note 2: The familiar's HD (for the purposes of Imbue with Spell Ability) is considered the same as the Master's HD:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.- Gauss
P.S. My way to houserule this combo into oblivion is to state that regenerate would not function for shield other damage.
This isn't that bad. It's like a magic version of the psicrystal damage split that psionic characters use to tank (though I honestly think that the magic version is stronger in this case). You don't really even need a familiar to make it worthwhile. A less complicated version is just a sentient animated object with shield other as an ability. The construct's hardness applies to damage spells as well, so an adamantine creature ignores the first 20 points of damage from all sources, which means that you'd have to suffer 42 points of damage before the construct took 1 damage.
This would be the ideal method for Pathfinder society though, since you can't craft your constructs in PF Society but I'm pretty sure you get your familiars. I'd stick the familiar inside a nice safe box inside my gear, to keep him away from danger. Put a bottle of air inside and you're good to go. Pretty good, but not OP.
Another interesting idea with this is going alchemist. You can build an alchemist as a tank or melee damager and take the tumor familiar. If the tumor familiar is attached to you he also gains fast healing 5 so he recovers from it in between combat alot faster (potentially having less down time in between castings). Plus the thought of having half of the damage done to you instead being transfered to an unkillable tumor inside you is actually quite potent and.... odd.... on the plus side, the familiar is practically un-targetable inside the alchemist (nothing says you cant have the familiar in your heel or on your buttox)
Forget the down time inbetween castings. Just realized that shield other has a 1h/level duration...
On a side note, can a Alchemist take the improved familiar? It says you need to have X arcane caster levels. I do not know if that precludes the alchemist or not. anyone?
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Malag:
I agree on a RP level there are problems here. Getting the familiar to do it a second time is definitely a trick. As for good aligned: there are only two Improved Familiars with regen that I am familiar with (pun intended). One is LN (Arbiter) and the other is LE (Augur). Pushing your familiar to repeatedly do this might be within the realm of either alignment.
As for PFS: "NPCs can focus other players"? Not sure what you meant by this phrase.
- Gauss
You can clear up some of the RP issues if your CN worshiper of Calistra and you summon up a masochistic imp
Alright so I am quite liking the look of this trick we got going here, My main question is what familiars are actually capable of pulling this off? So far I know of the Arbiter and the Augur, tho that limits you to being LG/N/E or NG/N/E, so no chaotic. Also, I am unsure if these two have hands and if that makes a difference.
Gobo Horde: The alignment restrictions are worse than that actually.
The Arbiter is LN and states in its description that it only LN spellcasters can take it.
The Augur is LE and states in its description that only LE spellcasters can take it.
Regarding hands: Arbiter has hands, Augur does not. If makes a difference if the spell is being cast from a wand.
And I just noticed that the Augur cannot use a wand or spell anyhow because it cannot speak. That limits this trick to LN spellcasters (Arbiter).
Galnorag: The only Improved Familiars with regen are the Arbiter and Augur. The masochistic Imp isnt a good damage sink because it doesn't have regen.
- Gauss
It's apparently not PFS legal, but only because Arbiters and Augurs aren't allowed to wear rings, the focus component of shield other. Can't use wands either. (There is a current thread about this.)
It is nice when I drop a few fireballs and the cleric takes a bucket of damage.
ಠ_ಠ
Stop doing that! It hurts!
Take Boat: Not that I play PFS but can you point me to the thread? Thanks
Timothy:
You are correct, it is limited to LN.
However, it is not limited to clerics with familiars.
A) A wand of shield other +UMD works fine.
B) Imbue Spell ability can be cast by the party cleric on the party wizard (or other PC with familiar).
Also: Clerics CAN get familiars with 2 feats (3 for improved familiars). Eldritch Heritage opens up alot of possibilities.
Who benefits from the shield other is also not limited to the familiar's Master. The familiar can cast that upon the fighter in the group.
It appears I am in the minority on thinking this could be a problem. That's fine. I am not always a majority thinker.
- Gauss
I think it is a loophole, but I don't think it is a big issue. That is not to say it will never be an issue in any fight, but unless the fighter(other subject of shield other) takes so much damage that the cleric would have dropped it would not really matter. I would like to think that is a rare thing. You can have a familiar they can do more useful things than be a damage soaker. I think there is a thread on there for familiar optimisation.
Wraithstrike, you are correct that the main issue will be when the fighter (or other subject) takes enough damage that a cleric would have died. I guess it depends on the style of monsters that you face. If there are alot of small creatures then it is doubtful there will be enough damage to overwhelm the cleric's hp. However, if there the majority of encounters are single monster fights then it can overwhelm the cleric pretty easily. Depends on the style of campaign I guess.
- Gauss
Here's the thread. It's actually about animal companions, but it goes into Shield Other briefly.
There's an FAQ house-rule for PFS that says ACs and familiars can only use Necklaces and Barding, except for brownie, imp, lyrakien azata, or quasit familiars, who can at the very least use wands and circlets of persuasion.
It's kind of a weird rule because other familiars could reasonably use item. A Cassisian Angel can shapechange into a small human-like angel that could presumably use anything, and the Arbiter is using a short sword in its stat block. But it does say those ones are "The only exception."
Wraithstrike, you are correct that the main issue will be when the fighter (or other subject) takes enough damage that a cleric would have died. I guess it depends on the style of monsters that you face. If there are alot of small creatures then it is doubtful there will be enough damage to overwhelm the cleric's hp. However, if there the majority of encounters are single monster fights then it can overwhelm the cleric pretty easily. Depends on the style of campaign I guess.
- Gauss
Single monster fights tend to be easier due to action economy.
If a fight has a boss level fight with the strongest monster at APL+2, and the supporting cast that synergizes well then the cleric might have to deal with the fighter getting hurt, and people attacking him directly.
That same fight however can also get the familiar killed, once he is down.
Yeah if every fight is a fight for your life, and you are fighting a group of monsters/enemies, then the cleric could be in trouble, but I think it is more of a corner case issue than something that is an actual advantage in most games.
A familiar with regen cannot be killed via shield other. It could take half the damage for the entire party (hundreds potentially) and still not die.
- Gauss
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A familiar with regen cannot be killed via shield other. It could take half the damage for the entire party (hundreds potentially) and still not die.
- Gauss
The party can still die, however. :)
A familiar with regen cannot be killed via shield other. It could take half the damage for the entire party (hundreds potentially) and still not die.
- Gauss
I was not saying kill it by via shield other damage. I was saying bypass its regeneration.
I would not have every encounter be able to bypass the regeneration, but most boss or mini-boss fights would probably be able to do it.
Ahhhhh, sorry I misunderstood.
The problem with the bad guys bypassing the regen is that they have to be able to target the familiar (with chaos weapons/spells). With an hour per level duration the familiar can cast shield other and then hide in a backpack safely out of sight. Or use invisibility to remain undetected, etc.
- Gauss
Invis is not really a problem unless it is cast before hand, and the party know the BBEG fight is around the corner. If it is cast it combat, then you know it is invisible, and there are several ways to deal with invisibility even below level 5, that a higher level boss type should not be struggling with it.
It is also a lose of action economy to hide the familiar in backpack, which is a loss of efficiency. I mentioned that a few posts up. The only combats it would really be an advantage in are ones where a really large amount of damage was taken. For all the others it is a nonfactoer, and in those fights where it is a nonfactor you can have the cleric take the damage, and have the familiar doing other things, such as using wands or delivering spells on the cleric's behalf through the use of share spells of imbue spells.
Before I see this as a problem it would have to be shown that is more advantageous to have the familiar hiding than being actively useful in most games.
It is kind of like comparing a scythe's x4 crit multiplier to a falchion's x2. The scythe is like the hiding familiar. When it crits it is really good, but most of the time you are better off with the falchions crits because they are more consistent.
Hmmmm, I guess I just have a different idea of how it could be used. Of course this is mostly just an exercise in thought since I have yet to see a player actually try this.
To me the following scenario is rather nasty:
LN Wizard with UMD has an Arbiter Inevitable familiar.
Arbiter uses a Wand of Shield Other (CL3) on all 4 party members (price: 90gp per person for 3hours of protection).
Arbiter hides in someone's backpack and is thus not eligible for being targeted. They remain there for the next three hours.
Since the arbiter is ineligible to be targeted (by spell) the main method is to attack the backpack. This assumes the enemy is aware of the arbiter inside which means they would have to have been observing back when the arbiter crawled into it.
Of course, dispel magic can still dispel the Shield Other.
- Gauss
Hmmmm, I guess I just have a different idea of how it could be used. Of course this is mostly just an exercise in thought since I have yet to see a player actually try this.
To me the following scenario is rather nasty:
LN Wizard with UMD has an Arbiter Inevitable familiar.
Arbiter uses a Wand of Shield Other (CL3) on all 4 party members (price: 90gp per person for 3hours of protection).
Arbiter hides in someone's backpack and is thus not eligible for being targeted. They remain there for the next three hours.Since the arbiter is ineligible to be targeted (by spell) the main method is to attack the backpack. This assumes the enemy is aware of the arbiter inside which means they would have to have been observing back when the arbiter crawled into it.
Of course, dispel magic can still dispel the Shield Other.
- Gauss
I never thought the the spell could be used on more than one person, even if it is from a different casting.
Looking at the rules though, I can't find anything against it. I have to leave for work soon, but I will check it out when I get back.
Timothy Hansen:
Chaos Hammer is a burst spell and since the familiar is inside a backpack/box/whatever the Chaos Hammer cannot touch it unless it destroys the backpack/box/whatever first. Since Chaos Hammer does not harm inanimate objects it cannot penetrate to the familiar.
A fireball on the other hand could IF it did enough damage to destroy the bag AND the player carrying the familiar rolled a 1 AND there was nothing higher on the item damage progression table (Table 9-2 on CRB p216). A backpack would be either 5th, 8th, or 10th depending on DM interpretaton.
Unless a spell allows you to specifically target a carried item then the only way (that I can figure out) to get at the familiar is via sundering the bag.
Of course, if you have another idea on how to destroy the bag to get at the familiar I am open to it. This is just a thought exercise.
- Gauss
Timothy Hansen:
I am partially in error.
First: The familiar is being carried inside an object. Thus, if the spell cannot penetrate the object then it does not affect the familiar.
Second: A fireball would not damage a backpack being carried by a person. Reason: unless the person rolls a 1 on a saving throw none of his equipment is damaged (CRB p216).
Third (my error) is this: A bag is not thick enough to stop a fireball or a Chaos Hammer.
Correction to fix my error: A metal box in a backpack is thick enough to stop a fireball. According to CRB p215 you need a 1foot square hole to allow line of effect through a solid object.
My apologies for the error.
- Gauss
Also: Clerics CAN get familiars with 2 feats (3 for improved familiars). Eldritch Heritage opens up alot of possibilities.
Who benefits from the shield other is also not limited to the familiar's Master. The familiar can cast that upon the fighter in the group.
It appears I am in the minority on thinking this could be a problem. That's fine. I am not always a majority thinker.
- Gauss
I am also believing that this is quite strong. One of the main differences between the cleric casting this and the familiar is that after a cleric casts it, he still takes half the damage. it might be reduced more, and the cleric might have about the same hps as the fighter, but the total damage to the party is still relatively the same. If half of the damage goes to the familiar, then thats an actual 50% damage reduction that gets totally negated. Add this to casting it on the entire party (including the cleric)and it actually turns into a near permanent reduction in damage for everyone. on a side note about action economy, I would rather have the cleric fighting/buffing/healing than his familiar buffing/healing/what have you. The actions of the cleric will most likely outweigh the familiars.
As for stuffing it in your backpack, nothing is against stuffing a dead (or essentially dead) carcass in your backpack. The intent of stuffing it in there is just to make it unnoticed, so if they actually figured it out, and tried to get rid of it, they would have to first open/destroy/get past the backpack, witch is being carried by the character, using his ac/CMD ect. after getting past the backpack, you need to hit the arbiter with a chaotic weapon or spell to actually kill the familiar and end the effect. If a GM has to go to this lengths to get around the effect, he should just use dispel (am field?) or not allow it in the first place (after learning that it is indeed broken ;].
As it stands, this is indeed very powerful, and thats exactly why I like it so much XD
PS as for getting around the whole where to put it thing, I still love the Tumor familiar, hiding it in your heel and calling him Achilles o.-
Timothy Hansen:
A metal box in a backpack is thick enough to stop a fireball. According to CRB p215 you need a 1foot square hole to allow line of effect through a solid object.
Gauss, I am having trouble with one aspect of the set up that you are talking about.
Why would a LN arbiter stay with the wizard that forces it cast a spell, then locks it up in a small metal box and proceeds to torture it?
Also, I am of the same opinion as Wraithstrike, that multiple castings of this spell will not stack, only the most recent version will.
Gauss, I am having trouble with one aspect of the set up that you are talking about.
Why would a LN arbiter stay with the wizard that forces it cast a spell, then locks it up in a small metal box and proceeds to torture it?
Mostly because the arbiter has no choice. unlike an animal companion, it cannot just up and walk away. still. it is kinda hard to justify a lawful type doing this. wait, "I order you to get in that box and eat damage from the entire party!", no nm I dont..... Chaotic neutral is just easier to understand XS
First: I did agree at the outset that RP issues could arise from asking your familiar to be a damage sponge. I specifically am sidestepping that (because RP standards vary from table to table).
Second: I cannot see anything that prevents multiple castings of Shield Other from being effective provided they are not cast upon the same creature multiple times.
The recipient of the damage gains no benefit (thus nothing to stack) and is not the target of the spell (thus that is not a restriction either).
A fighter cannot stack multiple shield others as the recipient, but a cleric (or other person casting shield other) can be the caster of such a spell multiple times. Normally a cleric casting shield other on each of his allies would be a recipe for a dead cleric so it never comes up.
I could see an easy way to nerf this. Change the Shield Other spell so that only one link between one caster and one target can be made. However, currently neither the rules nor the spell do that.
BTW, ask yourself this: Can you think of any other 3 feats that would result in taking 50% damage for the rest of your adventuring days? Because this is what any LN fighter type might see from this concept.
- Gauss
I don't see anything in the spell to support it only affecting one target. The stacking rules don't stop it because you are not stacking anything. Other than a GM saying "no" because I can't see the RP behind intentionally suffering, it seems to be rules legal.
I think the spelled should be errata'd to only have one link active. I was ok with it only being done for one person, but not for the entire party, because now it becomes a lot more useful, especially in PFS where a GM's hands are tied.
I may have missed it, but why can't a familiar do this in PFS?
Apparently the Inevitable Arbiter hasnt been approved for wearing rings and wielding wands. My guess it is they simply havent vetted the bestiary 2 improved familiars yet. However, I don't play PFS and only pay a little bit of attention to it so it is just a guess.
- Gauss
That does not stop Imbue with Spell Ability though. A higher level cleric only needs to prepare it once or twice a day.
It even makes the over price pearls of power worth looking at. 12'500 once for a 4th level pearl is cheaper than the raise dead line of spells.