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So far I've seen 3 significant advances in power for casters from the ARG, and have decided to compile them here to see what the general view is on them. Who do YOU think got the biggest cake?
Contender A: The Elven Spellbinder wizard
A wizard who can get spells known and cast them using equal or higher level prepared spells. The sorcerer learn a 3rd level spell at level 6? This wizard can learn it at level 5, AND can still prepare other spells, AND use those other spells to cast that known spell. 6th level sorcerer learns to cast 3rd level spell [X]. A wizard one level *lower* can prepare 3rd level spells [Y] and [Z], AND can use either of those spells to cast spell [X] (giving him 3 spells of the same level to choose from, even though he's one level lower). The elven wizard, now potentially the best spontaneous caster, AND who still has all the spells in his spellbook.
Contender B: Half-elf sorcerers, bards and oracles
Half-elves get a new 3rd level spell that allows them to temporarily gain a feat. A certain member of the Paizo community thought of using the spell to temporarily gain the expanded arcana feat, thus allowing him to temporarily gain new spells known at the cost of an action and a spell slot. Essentially, give him 2 rounds, and he can provide any arcane spell he knows about that his class could normally cast (spell-slot intensive, but still, highly versatile). Oracles get the same love. The sorcerer and oracle, now rivalling the wizard and cleric respectively for versatility, with the bard not too far behind.
Contender C: Samsaran Clerics, Oracles and Druids (C.O.D. - oh dear...where have I seen those letters before?)
Samsarans get to pick spells off any spell list provided it is of the same type (arcane or divine). So...you know how clerics and druids each get awesome but different buffs? Now imagine a wildshaped druid with eaglesoul, righteous might, divine power, litany of vengeance and greater magic vestment to go with his wildshape and barkskin. Or a cleric with eaglesoul, divine power and holy sword (yes, he can get a +5 holy sword as early as level 7, bypassing anything short of epic or absolute DR). Perhaps the most devastating aspect of this is that they can now cast buffs that only paladins could cast before, except that they are now casting it at full character level, and casting the most powerful paladin buffs at level 7 rather than level 13, on top of combining the best of druid and cleric buffs. Heralding the return of CODzilla, except now COD stands for Cleric,Oracle,Druid. =p
Feel free to recommend other contenders too.
For the record, it would appear to me that whilst the elven wizard and the half-elven sorcerer/oracle all increase in *versatility*, it is the Samsaran COD-trio that actually gets an increase in *power* by being able to access spells that no character of their level would otherwise be able to access.
So my vote for the winner at this point is: COD. CODzilla has returned, with pale blue skin.
Second place, I'd be inclined to give to the wizard. As a specialist, he has more spells than the sorcerer half the time, gets higher level spells half the time, and now never has to worry about preparing spells that he won't use for the day. He can have more options about what spell to cast in any given round than a sorcerer. Curiously, in a reversal of roles, the sorcerer now has the option to tap a wider selection of spells, but has to take longer to do so (it used to be the wizard who could pull the right spell if you have him more time, and come to think about it, the wizard can STILL do that, just that he needs more time than the half-elf sorcerer). From my experience, however, sometimes being able to pull the right spell one round later can be one round too late, since in that one round the enemies have also been active and doing THEIR own thing. So for raw power and first-round versatility, I still think wizards come out on top.
In third place I'd put the half-elf sorcerer. Which is not to say that they did not get a significant buff. But curiously, they can now handle utility casting pretty well, even if 3rd level runestones of power have now become their most-coveted item. In terms of power and 1st-round versatility, they actually still lose out to the elf-wizard. But they are the 2-round champions of versatility, albeit that it taxes their spells per day to utilise it. Given an hour or longer, however, they're essentially on par with the wizard in versatitlity.
Re: Samsaran - a race with -2 Con better get something to compensate for that, so it's all fine.
Poll means you have to vote, Mr Chompy-bag. =p
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So to elaborate: Samsarans aren't exactly a stellar race from optimization p.o.v, to put it mildly. You get -2 Con which blows, especially if you want to melee at any rate, and you get +2 to Wis and Int, which is about cool only if you are going for MT. Wizards shrug at Wis, CODs shrug at Int, Cha casters are in bed with something else to begin with, whatever you do there's a +2 that's pretty much lost on you.
Now Elves are -2 Con too, but with +2 Int and +2 Dex they're ideal Wizards.
So, in order to actually throw a bone to folks who want to play Samsarans, they get a rather nifty caster option that makes them attractive.
"Screw optimization" folks don't care much for that either way, "minmax or perish" crowd gets a bone, everybody is happy. Wake me up when you find something that blows dominate or hold spells out of the water, thankyouverymuch.
Re: Samsaran - a race with -2 Con better get something to compensate for that, so it's all fine.
No way.
Really, A and C and terrific; for B I can foresee a lot of GMs banning this precise exploitation of the spell.
For the purpose of the poll my vote is on COD.
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Re: Samsaran - a race with -2 Con better get something to compensate for that, so it's all fine.No way.
Really, A and C and terrific; for B I can foresee a lot of GMs banning this precise exploitation of the spell.
For the purpose of the poll my vote is on COD.
Thanks for your participation! That's two votes for COD.
For the record, B does not rely on strenuous rule interpretation. The selection of expanded arcana is more a clever application rather than an 'exploit'.
The full spell reads as follows:
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PARAGON SURGE
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, cleric 3, magus 4, paladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal (half-elf only)
Duration 1 minute/level
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.
For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
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I'm gonna have to go with the samsaran also. I don'te think it's a huge game-breaking issue, but it could potentially allow some double extra cheesey grilled cheese sandwiches. I really don't think any of it is too bad, though.
Hey mods, I flagged OP as something bad- I meant to flag it as being in the wrong forum; I can't figure out how to undo my mistake.
I'm gonna have to go with the samsaran also. I don'te think it's a huge game-breaking issue, but it could potentially allow some double extra cheesey grilled cheese sandwiches. I really don't think any of it is too bad, though.
Hey mods, I flagged OP as something bad- I meant to flag it as being in the wrong forum; I can't figure out how to undo my mistake.
Three votes for COD. Thanks for voting!
Incidentally, which forum should this have been posted in?
Thanks for your participation! That's two votes for COD.
For the record, B does not rely on strenuous rule interpretation. The full spell reads as follows:
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PARAGON SURGE
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, cleric 3, magus 4, paladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal (half-elf only)
Duration 1 minute/level
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
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I know, but since it's only a specific combination that's making this broken it's easy for a GM to ban it. Some will do it and some won't: if your GM is not obsessed with stopping power creeps take this anytime you play a sorc/oracle.
I know, but since it's only a specific combination that's making this broken it's easy for a GM to ban it. Some will do it and some won't: if your GM is not obsessed with stopping power creeps take this anytime you play a sorc/oracle.
Thanks for your participation! That's two votes for COD.
For the record, B does not rely on strenuous rule interpretation. The full spell reads as follows:
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PARAGON SURGE
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, cleric 3, magus 4, paladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal (half-elf only)
Duration 1 minute/level
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
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If you think this is a greater power creep than A or C, sounds like you should have voted B instead. XD I'd encourage you to consider my analysis in post 3 though, and offer your views.
But for the poll, should I change the vote tally to Samsaran COD 2, Half-elf SOB 1? (Heh, SOB. I mean Sorcerer/Oracle/Bard of course!)
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So to elaborate: Samsarans aren't exactly a stellar race from optimization p.o.v, to put it mildly. You get -2 Con which blows, especially if you want to melee at any rate, and you get +2 to Wis and Int, which is about cool only if you are going for MT. Wizards shrug at Wis, CODs shrug at Int, Cha casters are in bed with something else to begin with, whatever you do there's a +2 that's pretty much lost on you.
Now Elves are -2 Con too, but with +2 Int and +2 Dex they're ideal Wizards.
So, in order to actually throw a bone to folks who want to play Samsarans, they get a rather nifty caster option that makes them attractive.
"Screw optimization" folks don't care much for that either way, "minmax or perish" crowd gets a bone, everybody is happy. Wake me up when you find something that blows dominate or hold spells out of the water, thankyouverymuch.
I'm gonna have to agree with Gorb
I'm gonna have to agree with GorbSo to elaborate: Samsarans aren't exactly a stellar race from optimization p.o.v, to put it mildly. You get -2 Con which blows, especially if you want to melee at any rate, and you get +2 to Wis and Int, which is about cool only if you are going for MT. Wizards shrug at Wis, CODs shrug at Int, Cha casters are in bed with something else to begin with, whatever you do there's a +2 that's pretty much lost on you.
Now Elves are -2 Con too, but with +2 Int and +2 Dex they're ideal Wizards.
So, in order to actually throw a bone to folks who want to play Samsarans, they get a rather nifty caster option that makes them attractive.
"Screw optimization" folks don't care much for that either way, "minmax or perish" crowd gets a bone, everybody is happy. Wake me up when you find something that blows dominate or hold spells out of the water, thankyouverymuch.
The thread is not just about option C. =)
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It's a nonissue, you're trying to make a mountain of a damn tiny molehill. No matter what in every book you're going to have some sort of power-creep, it's the price you pay for having a successful RPG. The thing you're complaining about the most it seems is the Samsaran C.O.D. I don't see it as a problem, cause at most what 4 or 5 addition spells over the course of the character's life? Sure some of those are a little overpowered, I'll give you that, but that's part of the GM's job, dealing with power creep in his or her game and figuring out a way to stop it. It's part of the reason I don't allow Summoners in any game I run, I don't like them and therefore they aren't allowed. The GM has final say of what exists at his/her table, Paizo is just giving us options.
It's a nonissue, you're trying to make a mountain of a damn tiny molehill. No matter what in every book you're going to have some sort of power-creep, it's the price you pay for having a successful RPG. The thing you're complaining about the most it seems is the Samsaran C.O.D. I don't see it as a problem, cause at most what 4 or 5 addition spells over the course of the character's life? Sure some of those are a little overpowered, I'll give you that, but that's part of the GM's job, dealing with power creep in his or her game and figuring out a way to stop it. It's part of the reason I don't allow Summoners in any game I run, I don't like them and therefore they aren't allowed. The GM has final say of what exists at his/her table, Paizo is just giving us options.
Whoa mate, take a chill pill. I was actually hoping to have three options that had the potential to incite extreme reactions weighed in light of each other, rather than complain about ANY of them.
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FiddlersGreen - it's a discussion forum. You say that A,B and C are overpowered/cheesy/power creep. When somebody comes along and says "C shouldn't even be on this poll", you can't tell them "sorry, but this thread requires you to vote for one, no discussion please". It's just not how discussion forums work.
Again, when you find something that overshadows core spells, let us know - that's when we can talk about "power creep" understood as "optional material overshadows the baseline". Since I'm not seeing any of that in any of the three options you listed, I'm voicing my opinion. That's how discussion forums work.
Lacks one option: no power -creep at all.
Are good options? Yes. But I really don't see power-creep, except maybe a little in option A, that can enfuriate with good reason sorcerers. But here I see more the trouble with the delay spell progresion for sorcerer that in the wizard option.
FiddlersGreen - it's a discussion forum. You say that A,B and C are overpowered/cheesy/power creep. When somebody comes along and says "C shouldn't even be on this poll", you can't tell them "sorry, but this thread requires you to vote for one, no discussion please". It's just not how discussion forums work.
Again, when you find something that overshadows core spells, let us know - that's when we can talk about "power creep" understood as "optional material overshadows the baseline". Since I'm not seeing any of that in any of the three options you listed, I'm voicing my opinion. That's how discussion forums work.
I have not labelled any of them overpowered, nor have I said 'no discussions' (in fact, I rather like having discussions). However, since I am also seeking to get a feel for the general sentiments towards these options relative to each other, I do prefer if people vote. I've noted your opinion that they are all relatively tame.
If I have sensationalised things a little in the title, however, it was more to incline people to check out the thread rather than to make an absolute statement about the options. It's an aspect of advertpsing. =)
Lacks one option: no power -creep at all.
Are good options? Yes. But I really don't see power-creep, except maybe a little in option A, that can enfuriate with good reason sorcerers. But here I see more the trouble with the delay spell progresion for sorcerer that in the wizard option.
Aye, in hindsight, I should have made that an option too. Shame I can't edit the opening post anymore. Grr...
Alright for future reference, 'all 3 are rather tame' is also a valid choice for the poll. =)
I suppose that's Alaryth, Gorbacz and Tahirah for "all rather tame".
Contender A: The Elven Spellbinder wizard
A wizard who can get spells known and cast them using equal or higher level prepared spells. The sorcerer learn a 3rd level spell at level 6? This wizard can learn it at level 5, AND can still prepare other spells, AND use those other spells to cast that known spell. 6th level sorcerer learns to cast 3rd level spell [X]. A wizard one level *lower* can prepare 3rd level spells [Y] and [Z], AND can use either of those spells to cast spell [X] (giving him 3 spells of the same level to choose from, even though he's one level lower). The elven wizard, now potentially the best spontaneous caster, AND who still has all the spells in his spellbook.
That would be overpowered if it were actually true. Look a little closer.
Spell Bond (Su): At 1st level, a spellbinder selects any one spell he knows as a bonded spell. As a full round action, the spellbinder can replace a spell of the same or higher level as his bonded spell with his bonded spell.
This is not spontaneous casting. You have to take an entire round to convert a single spell to one matching one of your bonded spells. It doesn't say a thing about casting that same spell at the same time. In other words if you want to convert a spell for immediate casting then it will take a minimum of two rounds to get the spell out. There are arcane spells out there that do similar things already such as Mnemonic Enhancer and Mage's Lucubration.
Contender A: The Elven Spellbinder wizard
A wizard who can get spells known and cast them using equal or higher level prepared spells. The sorcerer learn a 3rd level spell at level 6? This wizard can learn it at level 5, AND can still prepare other spells, AND use those other spells to cast that known spell. 6th level sorcerer learns to cast 3rd level spell [X]. A wizard one level *lower* can prepare 3rd level spells [Y] and [Z], AND can use either of those spells to cast spell [X] (giving him 3 spells of the same level to choose from, even though he's one level lower). The elven wizard, now potentially the best spontaneous caster, AND who still has all the spells in his spellbook.That would be overpowered if it were actually true. Look a little closer.
Spell Bond (Su): At 1st level, a spellbinder selects any one spell he knows as a bonded spell. As a full round action, the spellbinder can replace a spell of the same or higher level as his bonded spell with his bonded spell.This is not spontaneous casting. You have to take an entire round to convert a single spell to one matching one of your bonded spells. It doesn't say a thing about casting that same spell at the same time. In other words if you want to convert a spell for immediate casting then it will take a minimum of two rounds to get the spell out. There are arcane spells out there that do similar things already such as Mnemonic Enhancer and Mage's Lucubration.
Good catch! You're right, it's actually a step down from actual spontaneous casting! Thanks for pointing this out!
Now I really wish I could edit my opening post. XD
I recently made an elven wizard for a game and considered taking this on. I changed my mind and stuck with the familiar. A raven familiar gets a +10 to perception rolls at 1st level. You effectively get two perception checks for the price of one. The RP value is also pretty good.
I do like the Spellbinder though. I thought about the spontaneous casting issue when I read it as well. It's not bad but not as good as say Spell Mastery which does let you cast one spell spontaneously.
I recently made an elven wizard for a game and considered taking this on. I changed my mind and stuck with the familiar. A raven familiar gets a +10 to perception rolls at 1st level. You effectively get two perception checks for the price of one. The RP value is also pretty good.
I do like the Spellbinder though. I thought about the spontaneous casting issue when I read it as well. It's not bad but not as good as say Spell Mastery which does let you cast one spell spontaneously.
I'm a fan of raven familiars too! My current character has a raven familiar named Lucien, and the intention is to craft custom headbands of vast-intellect for him to grant him knowledge religion, nature and planes. He's going to be the resident font of information for the party. There's something inherently hilarious about a bird knowing more than anyone else in the group. Gave him a snarky disposition too. XD
Point 1.
The COD arrangement build only gets a maximum of 6 spells to add from other classes which must be chosen at level 1.
Now if you're playing this guy from level 1 then that's not too bad as you're into crystal ball territory as far as which spells are going to be most useful to you in the game world/AP you're playing in. But as you have said, there are some obvious cherries begging to be picked.
If however you are creating this guy mid-level [or later] then you have a huge advantage.
If he gets 6, he also gets to have, well, not much else as he just spent all his stat points! As I personally only run AP's with 15 point buy, I think the shortage of stat point options will be a issue, as well as the -2 Con.
Point 2.
They have to give up Shards of the Past, which is a pretty nice ability, imo.
[The first spell that jumped into my mind was Mirror Image.]
Point 3.
Just say No [Roland]. It's not Core, or even Featured, its just Uncommon and if you are the DM it could just be extinct!
My Vote: Option One. Wizard is already God just now he has wings too.
This is not spontaneous casting. You have to take an entire round to convert a single spell to one matching one of your bonded spells. It doesn't say a thing about casting that same spell at the same time. In other words if you want to convert a spell for immediate casting then it will take a minimum of two rounds to get the spell out. There are arcane spells out there that do similar things already such as Mnemonic Enhancer and Mage's Lucubration.
Will save buying Pearls of Power!
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For me the wizard part is just that much more annoying since he already has the amulet of "one school sorcery" and greater spell specialization.
I don't care about the cleric simply because I don't play divine casters -- ever. With the witch out I have no reason and the only one I would consider is the druid.
As for the sorcerer -- GOOD. It's about time they got some lube to go with the shaft they keep getting.
I know, but since it's only a specific combination that's making this broken it's easy for a GM to ban it. Some will do it and some won't: if your GM is not obsessed with stopping power creeps take this anytime you play a sorc/oracle.
If you think this is a greater power creep than A or C, sounds like you should have voted B instead. XD I'd encourage you to consider my analysis in post 3 though, and offer your views.
But for the poll, should I change the vote tally to Samsaran COD 2, Half-elf SOB 1? (Heh, SOB. I mean Sorcerer/Oracle/Bard of course!)
No, no, I agree: COD is more of a power creep than spellbinder, and spellbinder more than paragon surge.
I just meant that paragon surge is just a spell: it's really easy for a GM to notice how powerful this is and ban it, since after all you are just preventing a player to use a spell. It's not very invasive and a GM can do it as soon as he notices how powerful it is without disrupting the character concept. A and C instead are more difficult to tackle so a GM may let them be if he is not obsessed with balance: this does not mean that B is more powerful than A or C.
Will save buying Pearls of Power!
This is not spontaneous casting. You have to take an entire round to convert a single spell to one matching one of your bonded spells. It doesn't say a thing about casting that same spell at the same time. In other words if you want to convert a spell for immediate casting then it will take a minimum of two rounds to get the spell out. There are arcane spells out there that do similar things already such as Mnemonic Enhancer and Mage's Lucubration.
They are rather different, actually. A pearl gets you a spell back, but you need to have prepared it at the start of the day, then have cast it. You don't need to have alrady prepared or cast the spell to use spellbond, but spellbond doesn't increase your maximum spells per day either. In other words, they serve somewhat different but complimentary functions. Both serve a wizard well. =)
The elven wizard ability strikes me as the most unnecessary power boost.
The samsaran ability strikes me as the most annoying power boost, because of my personal distaste for "early access" spells (e.g. level 1 Lesser Restoration, Level 2 Haste, Level 5 Simulacrum, etc.).
I don't have a problem with the half-elf sorcerer spell (aside from the fact that I think racial spells are kind of dumb).
I don't like the use of the word whilst. I really think you meant while. People seem to like whilst.... Maybe whilst has had a little power-creep. I mean, people are not using "while" very much, maybe "while" is underpowered or something.
Man, that really sucks for guys like me that use the word while more than the word whilst. I guess in my next vocabulary build I will have to include it.
The elven wizard ability strikes me as the most unnecessary power boost.
The samsaran ability strikes me as the most annoying power boost, because of my personal distaste for "early access" spells (e.g. level 1 Lesser Restoration, Level 2 Haste, Level 5 Simulacrum, etc.).
I don't have a problem with the half-elf sorcerer spell (aside from the fact that I think racial spells are kind of dumb).
That's actually pretty helpful, Hogarth. I may have done the discussion a disservice by focusing on the cleric, oracle and druid. Early access to arcane spells can be pretty nice too! A wizard casting haste at level 3 is certainly nifty!
Well, a chill pill may be called forth for both sides.
We have been here before, when something new came out, and some found out it was really useful.
Remember when Summoner came out? Big hoopla, now, not so much.Deep breath, and remember history.
Well said. Deserves a quote block.
I vote no.
Spellbinder is flexible, but a bonded item gives more versatility, it exists in core and allows any spell from the wizards spell book to be spontaineously cast once per day.
Spellbinder only works with one spell per spell level, and requires a spell slot be exchanged and not cast as a full round action.
All the half elf spell does is make sorcerers a bit more flexible. At the cost of one round's worth of spellcasting. And an expended spell slot. And it only gives you one spell per casting or two of a lower level. For a few minutes.
Again, no.
No divine caster who gets a -2 to con would pump int just to get a suite of buffs. The number of spells and spells themselves are sealed in stone at character creation. Its an option attached to a very kill able character. Hardly a return of CODzilla. Weaker than most options in core, again.
Characters with this option will likely run out of hit points.
Nothing you have listed represents significant creep.
There's no problems at all with any of these options. You're making a big deal out of nothing.
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I actually really like the idea of a half elf sorcerer saying "it's okay guys, I got this" While being filled with ancestral power and channeling the eldritch learning of one of a thousand generations of sorcerers in his line who expanded their arcane knowledge, then the next few rouns cutting loose with the newfound arcane knowledge. I see this spell as being a last ditch effort trump card kind of thing for when your character is looking to "go nova" anyway.
I can why you feel the way you do about A and B, but I don't think they're that game breaking, and if one of your players abuses it to the point that it is, then rule 0 can take care of it. New options, though powerful, are never bad.
As for C, I see it as a non-issue that an obscure "I never heard of it" race has a powerful option. It most situations it's not going to see much play.
i can't decide on one to vote for.
i kind of do see them all as 'power bloat', but in many ways they are just giving counterpoints to previous powerbloat.
i think the best approach is starting with core, and only bringing in specific material as needed to balance the game, while providing options that are mostly balance neutral... not just saying yes/no to a whole book, but going into the specific material.
As for the sorcerer -- GOOD. It's about time they got some lube to go with the shaft they keep getting.
This, because it's true and funny!
My vote is "No" by the way.
Has anyone actually played this? Or is this still just conjecture?
I'll add another no vote. Doesn't seem to be much of a problem, and as someone up thread mentioned, this (like other problems) can be short circuited with a GM call of "no".