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Let's just say that I may or may not be making a new PFS character soon, to run through the First Steps series.
Let's further theorize that I may or may not be feeling silly and want to make a PC with really high saves by mid levels, without being incompetent in other areas of necessity.
He'd also need to be viable at each level, since I have to play him through.
Here's some hypothetical starting stats:
Half-Orc (Sacred Tattoo alternate racial trait, for +1 to all saves)
STR 12
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 14
The Non-negotiables:
1. Two levels of paladin. This gets me base +3 Fort/Will, and CHA mod to all saves. Meanwhile, I gain weapon and armor proficiencies, full BAB, d10 HD, and Smite.
2. Two levels of Urban Ranger. This gets me base +3 Fort/Ref, full BAB, a bonus feat (probably Precise Shot), Favored Enemy, d10 HD, and great skills.
Seriously Considering:
1. One level of monk (undecided archetype). This gets me base +2 to all saves, IUS (enabling the cost-saving Agile AoMF), a bonus feat, and middling skills. HOWEVER, it costs me a point of BAB.
2. One to four levels of cleric. This gets me +2 or more to Fort/Will, some spell access, and domain powers. HOWEVER, it costs me a point of BAB and keeps my skills meager.
3. One to four levels of Archaeologist Bard. This gets me +2 or more to Ref/Will, good skills, some minor spell access, and Archaeologist's Luck. HOWEVER, it costs me, again, a point of BAB.
4. Additional levels of ranger. This gets me full BAB, good HD and skills, the ability to disable magical traps, and eventually more Favored Enemies.
-----------+----------
So that's what I'm looking at. What order should I put things in? What should make the cut? What have I missed?
Thanks!
Half-Orcs can get +1 to all saves too.
Half-Orcs can get +1 to all saves too.How?
Sacred Tattoo alternative racial trait.
Human with the Racial Heritage and Steel Soul feat?
You can't take Steel Soul since you don't have the hardy racial trait.
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If you go with 1 level of Sorcerer, you get a +2 to Will (probably your weaker save by this point), and you qualify for Dragon Disciple, which bumps up fort and will simultaneously. 4 levels in DD gets you +2 Fort/Will, +1 Ref, 4th level Sorcerer casting (2 higher if you take magical knack) for things like enlarge person, energy resistance, or w/e you may like, and, of course, +4 strength and +2 natural armor, with the 2 bab loss being made up for by the strength.
At that point you're looking at Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Sorcerer 1/DD 4 (Total level 9). Your reflex save will be suffering, so you could go more Ranger, or pick up Rogue or Monk. If you go Monk, I recommend one or two levels in the Master of Many Styles archetype, because style feats are useful for everyone.
Dwarf with Steel Soul and Glory of Old (from dwarves of golarion, if you have that) would give +5 to basically all saves. My dwarf used that to get at least +13 to most saves by level 8, I think.
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@Davor: I'm sure that's strong, but it's a little too obvious/"done" for me. (I kind of have a "thing" about that.) Everybody and their brother has heard about Paladin/DD builds, so I'll be staying away from DD. Thanks anyway. :)
@Cheapy: Don't have Dwarves of Golarion, I'm afraid. Also, I'd kind of like as few conditional bonuses as possible (i.e., +X versus spells, etc).
@James: Thank you soooo much for pointing out the Divine Hunter! I'm totally taking that idea. :) I don't want to dump any stats, so I'm not going to take your suggested build, but some of its pieces are definitely worth nabbing. :D
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I've also just decided that this half-orc will have the Chain Fighter, Scavenger, and Sacred Tattoo alternate racial traits. So something like this:
STR 13
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 14
First level feat will be Weapon Finesse, which can apply to Spiked Chains, which he'll be proficient in (Paladin1 at first level). The 13 STR means he can take Power Attack later, with his two-handed weapon. Thus, Captain Highsaves also fulfills one of my other character-building fantasies: the combination of Weapon Finesse and Power Attack!
:D
Am I crazy yet?
Small Tangent, so take what you will:
2 levels of Monk can nab you Evasion, along with 2 levels of good saves with everything. I might be remembering wrong, but Master of Many Styles keeps evasion and you can grab a style feat, like Snake Style that will let you use your Sense Motive as AC verse and attack.
Samurai, grants the resolve where you can re-roll your fort save or will save once a day.
I was looking at inqusitor, but their Stalwart ability doesn't kick in until level 11 and that is too late for PFS and the dips you are looking at.
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Small Tangent, so take what you will:
2 levels of Monk can nab you Evasion, along with 2 levels of good saves with everything. I might be remembering wrong, but Master of Many Styles keeps evasion and you can grab a style feat, like Snake Style that will let you use your Sense Motive as AC verse and attack.
Well, the Evasion only applies in light or no armor, and I'm looking at a breastplate in all likelihood.
A monk bonus feat (Style or otherwise) does sound appealing when combined with the +2 to all saves, so I've seriously considered a monk dip. I just don't like the hit to BAB without anything to make up for it. Even so, getting Dragon Style for free would be cool...
What about Archaeologist Bard? Costs me 1 point of BAB, but Archaeologist's Luck (especially if combined with Lingering Performance) makes up for that while simultaneously increasing damage, skills, and saves. Meanwhile, it boosts Ref/Will (giving me two strong classes per save when combined with ranger and paladin) and keeps my skills up. It also gives me some great boosts to trap disabling, gives me Uncanny Dodge, and even access to rogue talents if I go all the way to Bard4.
Hmm...
Small Tangent, so take what you will:
2 levels of Monk can nab you Evasion, along with 2 levels of good saves with everything. I might be remembering wrong, but Master of Many Styles keeps evasion and you can grab a style feat, like Snake Style that will let you use your Sense Motive as AC verse and attack.
Well, the Evasion only applies in light or no armor, and I'm looking at a breastplate in all likelihood.
A monk bonus feat (Style or otherwise) does sound appealing when combined with the +2 to all saves, so I've seriously considered a monk dip. I just don't like the hit to BAB without anything to make up for it. Even so, getting Dragon Style for free would be cool...
What about Archaeologist Bard? Costs me 1 point of BAB, but Archaeologist's Luck (especially if combined with Lingering Performance) makes up for that while simultaneously increasing damage, skills, and saves. Meanwhile, it boosts Ref/Will (giving me two strong classes per save when combined with ranger and paladin) and keeps my skills up. It also gives me some great boosts to trap disabling, gives me Uncanny Dodge, and even access to rogue talents if I go all the way to Bard4.
Hmm...
Nothing says the Dos Equis's "Most Interesting Man in the World" like the Archaeologist Bard.
I think it is a strong choice. I don't really see a downside to it.
If you go the Archaelogist Bard Route, here is another interesting odd duck:
Pathfinder Chronicler. (Might be the first time I would tell anyone to look at this prestige class, but you are looking outside the box) If you are not too into spells this build, you can get the live to Tell the Tale, which allows you to re-roll saves. It stacks with some of the bardic stuff. The only question I would have is if the Bardic Performance stacks with Luck. Without the books in front of me, I am unsure.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/pathfinderChronicler.htm l
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Another possible dip is Ninja, which would make use of my good CHA with a ki pool. Unfortunately, once again it's an option which costs me a point of BAB, and in this case doesn't boost either of the important saves (Fort or Will). Is it worth it?
To get high saves by mid level my first thought is a charismatic Halfling Paladin (or antipaladin)/Monk/Halfling Opportunist.
(Keep in mind that antipaladin/monk is possible with the martial artist archetype, which has no alignment restriction)
Another possible dip is Ninja, which would make use of my good CHA with a ki pool. Unfortunately, once again it's an option which costs me a point of BAB, and in this case doesn't boost either of the important saves (Fort or Will). Is it worth it?
Not worth it except if you are looking at Slippery Mind or some such.
I would throw an alchemist on the table, lose the BAB, but get two good saves, poison immunity and bombs. You might be able to rejigger your stats a bit, as you will be making ranged touch attacks, Dex could go down and int could go up a little.
Flavor works, the reason you guy is immune to everything is because of all the toxins he regularly gulps down.
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Keep in mind that the goal is not just to keep the saves high, but to do so while still being strong in other areas. So things that play to existing strengths (such as capitalizing on already-high stats like DEX or CHA) are under greater consideration than other things (like alchemists and their bombs).
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Are you looking to be melee or ranged, or dabble in both? I haven't quite got the sense of that yet from you.
-James
Well, it's all been a bit fuzzy and amorphous through most of the discussion, but right now the image in my head dabbles in both. Here's a framework as I envision it at the moment:
Half-Orc [Chain Fighter, Scavenger, Sacred Tattoo]
STR 13 (bump at 4th)
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 14
01:Paladin1[Divine Hunter]:[Bonus Feat:Precise Shot][Smite Evil 1/day], Weapon Finesse
02:Ranger1[Urban]:[Favored Enemy:Human]
03:Ranger2[Urban]:[Bonus Feat:Rapid Shot], Power Attack
04:Paladin2[Divine Hunter]:[Lay on Hands][Divine Grace], STR+1=14
05:Bard[Archaeologist]:[Archaeologist's Luck], Lingering Performance
06+ (Ranger? Bard?)
I originally considered a halfling, but decided that half-orcs (given that they too can get a +1 luck bonus to all saves) would better suit my preferences.
Halfling Opportunist in particular can boost that bonus to +2 for all saves however, which is why I'd suggested it. (Well actually, it can got to +3, but to be honest Halfling Opportunist levels 3 and beyond have never really looked as though they're good for much. Better to just grab 2 levels of it and take the +2 if you go that route.)
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Not sure why you want urban ranger over trapper ranger. The spell completion isn't all that great as you already have Paladin. If you are going to progress in urban that's another thing, but for a 2 level dip I think you might get more out of trapper ranger.
For starters, I don't own UM. ;)
I'm also not sure whether Ranger will stay as a dip, or continue (and if I don't want spells, I could always stack the Skirmisher archetype on top of Urban).
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Urban Barbarian. only gives a good fort save but you don't lose BAB
When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage.
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For starters, I don't own UM. ;)
Well that would be a good reason and explain it.
I just figure for what you are describing that going to Ranger 3 will be a serious investment for you and only gets you +1WILL towards saves. As a multi, Ranger casting isn't really going to be much more than what you could do with wands.
-James
Well, as I continue thinking about this build, I'm thinking I'll go Paladin1, Ranger1-2, Paladin2, then a 1-4 level dip in something with a good will save (monk, archaeologist, or cleric - can't decide), then probably Ranger for the rest of his career. Thus, I'll probably hit Ranger3 anyway.
So I guess the current question is this:
What should I dip at 5th? Monk, Cleric, or Archaeologist? If monk or cleric, what archetypes (if any)? If cleric, what domain(s)?
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Just keep a look out for your BAB and consider what you want this PC to be doing each round of combat.
Incidentally, this is how I make my PCs, level dips in everything for the Saves, Class Skill maximizing AND to make sure no one else is running what I'm running.
My fav:
Pal-3
Ftr-2 (Pathfinder Archetype in Field Guide)
Inq-2
Ran-1
Rog-2 (I forget which Archetype in the APG)
Bbn-2
Im jus glad youse iz playin a half-orc. I send youse a paswe..passcorrrrrr...danggit..sekrit werd for da treehouse we gotz.