| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi all,
So I recently decided to officially switch over from 3.5. I bought the Pathfinder core books and am reading through the rulebook in preparation for an upcoming game I'm going to run.
I'm confused about one thing however:
Chapter 8 (Combat) of the Core Rulebook states that if you hold a charge you can touch up to 6 friendly targets the next turn.
Yet Chapter 9 (Magic) states that you can never hold the charge for a spell that can be used on multiple targets.
Which am I supposed to follow? Or did I misunderstand the question.
Does the rule in Chapter 9 only apply to multiple OPPONENTS? Or does the rule in chapter 8 suggest that you can use a spell that otherwise could only be used on one target (say Cure Light Wounds) on multiple allies if you hold the charge and use a full-round action?
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Reading through both portions in the PRD, it appears as though it may be an editing error in the combat section. This sentence, while a valid rule feels out of place in the "holding the charge" section, and i feel should instead be a part of the first paragraph in the "touch spells in combat".
Either way, there really isn't actually any ambiguity, the magic section specifically states that a charge intended to touch multiple targets cannot be held over multiple rounds and all of your targets must be touched on that round. So read that as the "exception" that overrules the "general" rule of holding a charge.
I'll FAQ this for official clarification.
Can you provide a quote of the rules in question Tel?
edit:for clarity
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If I know those sections, it's for holding the charge on a spell for willing targets, you can touch six allies in a round. Hence the friendlies.
Need a quote from chapter 9 though. Most spells like chill touch that have a number of uses per casting, are instantaneous duration.
Pg 213 :
"Some spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action."
So it depends on the spell . If its a Teleport that requires you to touch all your allies, you can touch up to 6 allies as part of the casting. ( less depending on the caster level of the teleport ) . If you're able to touch multiple targets after the round the spell was cast, it's a full round action.
Most spells dictate what sort of action , standard or attack, it is to touch with a spell. Spells like shocking grasp let you have a free touch attack in the round you cast, if you miss then you're holding the charge. You can hold the charge indefinitely, until you touch anything or cast another spell. So you can attack the next round, as an attack action.
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With Wraith asking about actual rules quotes, and me looking in my book (as opposed to looking through the PRD on my iPad while on the toilet) I might revise my previous answer:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding the charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Range - Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6creatures is a full-round action.
Duration - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (or postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
EDIT: Pseudo-Ninja'd by Seraphimpunk.
From the looks of it if the spell is one like teleport and mass cures have to be used instantly can't hold them.
Ones like chill touch that work over multiple rounds you can.
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From the looks of it if the spell is one like teleport and mass cures have to be used instantly can't hold them.
Ones like chill touch that work over multiple rounds you can.
Just two minor points of fact: mass spells are ranged spells, not touch and teleport doesn't require the caster to touch everyone to be transported; everyone can daisy-chain by holding hands and the caster only has to be in contact with one of them.
Must read before typing.
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So, touching up to 6 friendlies has to be done in the same round the spell is cast.
To make sure I understand touching as an attack over multiple rounds, let me provide an example:
A 12th level wizard is casting Chill Touch, which allows the caster to make 12 melee touch attacks. So, on round 1 the spell is cast and he may make 1 melee touch attack as a free action. On round 2 he may use a full-round action make up to 6 melee touch attacks. Then on round 3 (assuming he did make 6 touches on the previous round), he may use another full-round action to make up to 5 melee touch attacks (his remaining balance allowed by the spell).
Now, another related question: can he touch the same creature 12 times, or does he have to touch 12 different creatures? (Sorry, a bit off topic).
In case anyone missed it.
Duration - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (or postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
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In case anyone missed it.
Duration - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (or postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
True, but if I may direct your attention to my post where I quoted the rules, my middle quote of page 213 discusses touching targets over multiple rounds.
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A 12th level wizard is casting Chill Touch, which allows the caster to make 12 melee touch attacks. So, on round 1 the spell is cast and he may make 1 melee touch attack as a free action. On round 2 he may use a full-round action make up to 6 melee touch attacks.
Not quite. You still don't get more iterative attacks than what is allowed by your BAB, so your 12th-level wizard only gets 2 attacks per round regardless of the total number of charges the spell provides.
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Not quite. You still don't get more iterative attacks than what is allowed by your BAB, so your 12th-level wizard only gets 2 attacks per round regardless of the total number of charges the spell provides.
A 12th level wizard is casting Chill Touch, which allows the caster to make 12 melee touch attacks. So, on round 1 the spell is cast and he may make 1 melee touch attack as a free action. On round 2 he may use a full-round action make up to 6 melee touch attacks.
If that were true, how would a wizard/sorcerer be able to touch up to 6 targets as a full round action as per page 213 in the CRB?
I would bet that its a rule that they intended to put spells in that would apply to this rule but never did, or gave them all range. I can't think of single non-offence ability that would let you touch 6 allies.
I think chill touch would work assuming everyone just let you touch them i guess. but that seems goofy.
Okay, first of all:
WOW. Great community. I was expecting maybe two responses by tomorrow. Thanks guys!
Second of all:
In response to Hangarflying's point about attacking 6 times in one turn, as Sam says: the rule says allies, so I'm guessing it doesn't allow more attacks than your base attack bonus does. That I'm actually clear about as it's consistent in both areas.
Third of all:
There is still the problem with the note on 185-186: "Holding the charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. " (Chapter 8: Combat)
Probably should have quoted that from the beginning. So, looking over it again, it seems to support the fact that multi-target spells can't be held still (since it suggests that the spell discharges as soon as you touch someone if its held) - but I'm still confused as to why they would mention that you can touch up to six friends under this section?
Are they simply noting it as a "by the way" ? I guess that would be a slight editing error, like Hangar said.
True, but if I may direct your attention to my post where I quoted the rules, my middle quote of page 213 discusses touching targets over multiple rounds.In case anyone missed it.
Duration - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (or postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Do you mean-->
If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6creatures is a full-round action.
edit:Which means the specific spell must allow you to bypass the general rule.
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I would bet that its a rule that they intended to put spells in that would apply to this rule but never did, or gave them all range. I can't think of single non-offence ability that would let you touch 6 allies.
I think chill touch would work assuming everyone just let you touch them i guess. but that seems goofy.
Water breathing is a touch spell that you can cast on multiple targets. It does not require that you make touch attacks, unless the targets don't want to be able to survive underwater and are trying to avoid being touched.
There are almost certainly other spells that work the same way, but one is enough to explain the purpose of that clause in the rules.
Not all touch range spells are attacks, but all touch attacks are attacks and have to follow th BAB iterative attacks progression.
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True, but if I may direct your attention to my post where I quoted the rules, my middle quote of page 213 discusses touching targets over multiple rounds.In case anyone missed it.
Duration - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (or postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.Do you mean-->
If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6creatures is a full-round action.edit:Which means the specific spell must allow you to bypass the general rule.
Yeah, I agree with you.
So, in that case, spells like Chill Touch or Hide From Animals are the exceptions to the general rule: Multiple targets over multiple rounds. Animate dead or astral projection would have to have all touched in the same round.
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I would bet that its a rule that they intended to put spells in that would apply to this rule but never did, or gave them all range. I can't think of single non-offence ability that would let you touch 6 allies.
I think chill touch would work assuming everyone just let you touch them i guess. but that seems goofy.
Water breathing is a touch spell that you can cast on multiple targets. It does not require that you make touch attacks, unless the targets don't want to be able to survive underwater and are trying to avoid being touched.
There are almost certainly other spells that work the same way, but one is enough to explain the purpose of that clause in the rules.
Not all touch range spells are attacks, but all touch attacks are attacks and have to follow th BAB iterative attacks progression.
These multiple attacks aren't being made because of a high BAB, but are being made because the spell you are casting allows you to touch multiple targets.
True, but if I may direct your attention to my post where I quoted the rules, my middle quote of page 213 discusses touching targets over multiple rounds.In case anyone missed it.
Duration - Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (or postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.Do you mean-->
If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6creatures is a full-round action.edit:Which means the specific spell must allow you to bypass the general rule.
Yeah, I agree with you.
So, in that case, spells like Chill Touch or Hide From Animals are the exceptions to the general rule: Multiple targets over multiple rounds. Animate dead or astral projection would have to have all touched in the same round.
I was just making sure we were on the same page. :)
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These multiple attacks aren't being made because of a high BAB, but are being made because the spell you are casting allows you to touch multiple targets.
You still have to make a touch attack every time you try to touch an opponent.
Chill touch does not grant you the ability to make six attacks a round. It gives you 1charge per level on the spell. Those charges don't go away until they are discharged by touching a target, touching something else (like a sword or a door), or by casting another spell.
I see where your argument is coming from, but I disagree with your conclusion. The 12th level wizard gets 12 charges of chill touch that he can discharge with melee touch attacks. In the round that he casts the spell, he can make one touch attack as a free action.
I would bet that its a rule that they intended to put spells in that would apply to this rule but never did, or gave them all range. I can't think of single non-offence ability that would let you touch 6 allies.
Communal spells (Ultimate Combat) are non-offense and require this mechanic to be used. There are many spells which require touching up to 6 allies (in the core rulebook Shadow Walk is one example). The communal spells are just the most glaring examples.
- Gauss
Not all touch range spells are attacks, but all touch attacks are attacks and have to follow the BAB iterative attacks progression.
By that logic scorching ray would be limited by BAB also since it is also using attacks.
Hey stop nerfing my wizards Wraith. I mean how can i bend reality to shoot firey lazers at things if I have to have a better BAB to shoot more.
Hey stop nerfing my wizards Wraith. I mean how can i bend reality to shoot firey lazers at things if I have to have a better BAB to shoot more.
Blame Thorkull. :)
So i looked over the rules. It looks to me like the full round action touch up to six targe5s bit is solely for friendly targets. Example.
Lvl 12 wizard above casts chill touch.he can then as a free action touch one bad guy. The round after he can do a full attack action using his bab to attempt to hit multiple targets subject to his bab. ( so probably 3 if hasted)
Howver things g bad for the wizard and his companions so they decide to get out and he casts dimension door. They all huddle around he casts dd.
He can then as a free action touch one companion. Or to get them all out next round he has to do a full round action to get multiple.
What he cannot do is attack more people in a round than his bab allows with chill touch
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By that logic scorching ray would be limited by BAB also since it is also using attacks.
Fallacious. The description of Scorching Ray specifies that all the rays are fired simultaneously:
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Your last quote basically said attack from spells have to follow BAB.
The general rules say that all touches from touch spells must be made in the same round unless the spell gives an exception.
If you want to say that BAB trumps the touch spell rules you need a rules quotes. A spell using touch attacks is still a "touch spell".
edit:The touch spell rules are specific while the BAB rules are general so it seems the touch rules should come out on top.
Wait, hold on. Do you all agree then that you cannot hold a charge and apply it to 6 allies the next round? Since you cannot hold the charge of a spell that can be applied to multiple targets?
By the way, I think another possible reason for the odd quote I mentioned above is because there may eventually be a spell which is an exception to the rule (maybe there already is?).
Also, I think I agree with Thorkull's logic about not getting multiple attacks in one round. I never read the rules that way: scorching ray specifically says the rays are fired simultaneously.
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Wait, hold on. Do you all agree then that you cannot hold a charge and apply it to 6 allies the next round? Since you cannot hold the charge of a spell that can be applied to multiple targets?
Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
Ok, that's all the relevant rules text. I put it I spoiler tags so as not to make a wall o text.
After reading and re-reading the rules, I have to say I think wraithstrike is right -- the key portion is where it says:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
It means you *must* touch all the targets when you cast the spell if there's more than one target. You cannot hold any charges from, for example, chill touch over to subsequent rounds. Same thing with water breathing - you must touch all the targets of the spell on the round you cast it. The only way this makes sense with chill touch is if you allow essentially free touch attacks up to the limit of the number of targets of the spell on the round it is cast.
This is annoying as it means that everyone I've played with across over 11 years of organized play has been running it wrong.
It means you *must* touch all the targets when you cast the spell if there's more than one target.
Only if the spell allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell.
This works for Water Breathing because you can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting.
This doesn't work for Chill Touch, unless you're touching 6 willing targets as part of the casting. Because you're not touching friends, you're forced to use the standard touch rules. Since you have one touch per level, and you only make one touch the round you cast the spell (assuming no spell combat or quickened spell weirdness) then you haven't discharged the spell. And since you haven't discharged the spell in the round you cast it, you hold the charge.
Chill Touch needs to be clarified, but there's only one reasonable way to clarify it. The FAQ thread was marked "Answered in the errata." and since it's not yet been addressed in existing errata, we're forced to wait for the 6th edition of the CRB to find out how it officially works.
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Wait, hold on. Do you all agree then that you cannot hold a charge and apply it to 6 allies the next round? Since you cannot hold the charge of a spell that can be applied to multiple targets?
By the way, I think another possible reason for the odd quote I mentioned above is because there may eventually be a spell which is an exception to the rule (maybe there already is?).
Also, I think I agree with Thorkull's logic about not getting multiple attacks in one round. I never read the rules that way: scorching ray specifically says the rays are fired simultaneously.
It depends on the spell. There are some spells that are used on allies that allow touches over multiple rounds. Hide From Animals would be one such spell.
If a wizard has to follow the high BAB attack iteration, it sucks to be Karzoug the Claimer if he wants to cast Chill Touch - he would never be able to cast any other spells! Maybe that's how he got defeated by all those other adventuring parties.
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It means you *must* touch all the targets when you cast the spell if there's more than one target.Only if the spell allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell.
This works for Water Breathing because you can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting.
This doesn't work for Chill Touch, unless you're touching 6 willing targets as part of the casting. Because you're not touching friends, you're forced to use the standard touch rules. Since you have one touch per level, and you only make one touch the round you cast the spell (assuming no spell combat or quickened spell weirdness) then you haven't discharged the spell. And since you haven't discharged the spell in the round you cast it, you hold the charge.
Chill Touch needs to be clarified, but there's only one reasonable way to clarify it. The FAQ thread was marked "Answered in the errata." and since it's not yet been addressed in existing errata, we're forced to wait for the 6th edition of the CRB to find out how it officially works.
This has always been the way everybody I know runs it. It's not extremely clear, but the intent is definitely Chill Touch can be used up to N/caster level, restricted by number of attacks that caster has in one round.
The fun way to get maximum use out of Chill Touch is to have a qinggong/sensei monk to take Whirlwind Attack as a ki power, and then give that feat to the caster using Mystic Advise, and then the caster performs a Whirlwind Attack on his next turn. Huzzah.
If a wizard has to follow the high BAB attack iteration, it sucks to be [high level wizard] if he wants to cast Chill Touch - he would never be able to cast any other spells!
It's a level 1 spell. Do you really expect him to deal 20d6 and 20 strength damage with a standard+free action?
Anyway, it's even worse than BAB, if he wants to actually touch, it's normally a standard action to do so. The only way he can get multiple attacks is by using natural attacks, unarmed strike, or spellstrike, vs normal AC (and provoking if applicable).
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I would again like to refer to the rules quotes I posted above (as an aside, how do I link a specific post?), specifically the middle quote of the CRB from Chapter 9 of the CRB, page 213.
You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Spells such as Teleportation or Dimension Door fall under this clause. The spell description states that you must be in contact with your willing targets at the time of the casting of the spell. You can touch up to 6, but if you're only touching 3 the remaining touches are lost once the spell is complete.
Continuing:
If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Spells such as Chill Touch (touching enemies) or Hide Fom Animals (touching allies) fall under this clause. You can touch up to 6 creatures as a full-round action. If you would be touching unwilling opponents, you must make a touch attack to touch that opponent. These multiple touch attacks are not iterative touch attacks coming from a high base attack bonus. Note that the combat section of the rules state that you can only make one touch on the round the spell is cast, any remaining touches are made on subsequent rounds.
how do I link a specific post?
The post link is the one to the right of the poster's name, either a time stamp or "X Minutes Ago".
If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.Spells such as Chill Touch (touching enemies) or Hide Fom Animals (touching allies) fall under this clause. You can touch up to 6 creatures as a full-round action.
Now look at Table: Actions in Combat under Full-Round Action: "Use a touch spell on up to six friends"
The full round action is to touch friends, not enemies.
If you would be touching unwilling opponents, you must make a touch attack to touch that opponent.
Yes. And making a touch attack is a standard action. (It's a free action only when you cast the spell that round)
These multiple touch attacks are not iterative touch attacks coming from a high base attack bonus.
There are no touch attacks from high BAB. There is the standard single touch attack, and there are touch attacks delivered by natural weapons or unarmed strike against normal AC. (using limbs or BAB, respectively)
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There are no touch attacks from high BAB. There is the standard single touch attack, and there are touch attacks delivered by natural weapons or unarmed strike against normal AC. (using limbs or BAB, respectively)
So, you're saying that 20th-level wizard would spend 20 rounds casting and touching all his targets with chill touch?
In what universe would a wizard *ever* cast that spell past about level 3?
It means you *must* touch all the targets when you cast the spell if there's more than one target.Only if the spell allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell.
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Chill Touch needs to be clarified, but there's only one reasonable way to clarify it. The FAQ thread was marked "Answered in the errata." and since it's not yet been addressed in existing errata, we're forced to wait for the 6th edition of the CRB to find out how it officially works.
Chill touch does allow you to touch multiple targets (1/level). There's no verbiage anywhere that indicates otherwise. The thread you linked is over two years old. The last post (when the thread was last resurrected) was over 18 months ago. When was this marked for inclusion in the errata? The last update to the CRB was in November 2011, 14 months after the last post in that thread. I would expect the errata to have shown up in there, if it was going to.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
That's the relevant part. Chill touch has "Target: creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)". That means you can touch multiple targets as part of the spell.
I agree that the idea of a wizard spinning in circles madly trying to touch as many opponents as possible as a free action is a bit ludicrous, but it's the only interpretation of the RAW that makes sense.
There's no text in water breathing that specifies that you can touch multiple creatures as part of the spell. It just has the line "Target: living creatures touched," then describes how to split up the duration in the body of the description *if* you touch multiple creatures. There's nothing in there that says "you may touch up to x number of allies as part of casting this spell."
The two spells work identically except that one is generally cast on allies and the other on enemies. There's actually nothing stopping you from casting water breathing on a group of enemies, instead, unless they're not living.
I don't *like* this conclusion, but it's the only one that makes sense within the rules.
So, you're saying that 20th-level wizard would spend 20 rounds casting and touching all his targets with chill touch?
He casts it once, then the next 20 touches deliver the spell effect. Those touches follow the normal rules for touch spells, touch attacks, and holding the charge.
In what universe would a wizard *ever* cast that spell past about level 3?
It's a level 1 spell. A level 20 wizard probably isn't casting Burning Hands or Sleep very often, either.
When was this marked for inclusion in the errata?
Nobody knows. We don't know who flagged it answered, when it happened, or what part of the post they were responding to. If the person had posted "This is how it works, and it'll be changed in errata" that would have been nice.
The last update to the CRB was in November 2011, 14 months after the last post in that thread.
I was still soliciting FAQ requests in January 2012, and the flag happened some time before April 2012. This means no errata has been released for the CRB since that flag was added. That, combined with there not actually being anything relevant to it in the existing errata, means it must be pending the next edition.
The closest answer we have from a Developer is James Jacobs' post in January where he says to FAQ it, and that he would run it with one touch per level, round after round.
In February, he posted the same interpretation again saying "Chill touch gives you a touch attack you can use a number of times equal to your caster level. Those uses last until you use them; you recharge them by re-casting the spell. You do get a touch in the round you cast it (since it's a touch spell, you use the rules for touch spells). [...] At least... that's how the current rules work. I'm not sure if that's the way they were INTENDED to work."
So the Creative Director suspects it was intended to work that way, and that's the way it currently works, but it's possible it was intended to work differently.
That, combined with being the only non-broken way to run it, is enough for those of use who accept JJ's postings. Everyone else who considers JJ 'not official enough' can wait for 6th printing.
I agree that the idea of a wizard spinning in circles madly trying to touch as many opponents as possible as a free action is a bit ludicrous, but it's the only interpretation of the RAW that makes sense.
Why doesn't James' version make sense? You get a number of zaps from casting the spell. You deliver those zaps normally. It's just like shocking grasp, but spread out over time. You can SG to conserve actions and spend spells, or use CT to conserve spells and spend actions.
The [I] Chill Touch [/I} spell description says specifically:
"You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."
If it's a melee touch attack, wouldn't it also be limited by your attack bonus?
So, for example a level 20 wizard would cast the spell in round 1, and touch one target, leaving him with 19.
He would then continue to make touch attacks every round, using full-round actions in order to land the hit: 2 attacks per round because of his base attack bonus. Even assuming he took 5 foot steps, it's highly unlikely that he would be able to use up all the attacks since you can only use it once per target (Unless I misundestood this part), so I don't think it's all that absurd to think he might spend 3 or so rounds to cast the spell and touch 5 targets?
I notice people were saying that making a magical touch attack is a standard action, but I don't see that anywhere in the rules saying that you can't spend a full-round action to use all your potential attacks: am I missing something?
Tell me if I've misunderstood the issue.
There is no text to support touching six friends gets an exception.
An exception to what?
What if an enemy needs to be taken prisoner, and I need to keep him alive so he won't drown with the water breathing spell?
Then you still need to hit him with a touch attack. Just like if you were casting Cure Light Wounds.
If it's a melee touch attack, wouldn't it also be limited by your attack bonus?
I notice people were saying that making a magical touch attack is a standard action, but I don't see that anywhere in the rules saying that you can't spend a full-round action to use all your potential attacks: am I missing something?
Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
You can use iterative unarmed strikes or attacks with spellstrike, or you can use your natural attacks, but all of them are against normal AC, not touch AC.
I think it would be reasonable to allow iterative touches.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
There is nothing to say that chill touch gets an exception to this rule, just like water breathing does not get an exception.
There is also no general rule that I could find that said spells which allows you to touch enemies gets an exception either.
Without such a rule the spells are to be treated the same.
If anyone has found a quote I have missed giving chill touch an exception please post it.
I really doubt it was intended for a lvl 20 wizard to imediately get 20 attacks with a lvl 1 wpell is intended. For one it woukd be anoying as hell and time consuming. Secondly that a lvl 1spell could do 20 str damage isa bit silly though this woukd require 20 attack rolls and 20 failed saves.
Edit, i re read the duration and targeting in the magic section. And it appears that by these rules chill touch does imediately allow lvl number of attacks on availible targets. Which when you throw in spectral hand is pretty gross
The closest answer we have from a Developer is James Jacobs' post in January where he says to FAQ it, and that he would run it with one touch per level, round after round.
In February, he posted the same interpretation again saying "Chill touch gives you a touch attack you can use a number of times equal to your caster level. Those uses last until you use them; you recharge them by re-casting the spell. You do get a touch in the round you cast it (since it's a touch spell, you use the rules for touch spells). [...]
Okay, fair enough.
So do you have to use those attacks consecutively? If you're not "holding the charge" (since that's illegal with spells where you touch multiple targets) wouldn't that mean you're allowed to make use of other spells in the meantime? Or is this actually still "holding the charge," but with an exception to the usual rule?|
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It's a level 1 spell. A level 20 wizard probably isn't casting Burning Hands or Sleep very often, either.
No, but a level 3 wizard probably would use burning hands, and a level 20 wizard would probably still have magic missle prepped. I suppose you could prep it with Reach Spell in a 4th-level slot to eliminate the conundrum.
Why doesn't James' version make sense? You get a number of zaps from casting the spell. You deliver those zaps normally. It's just like shocking grasp, but spread out over time. You can SG to conserve actions and spend spells, or use CT to conserve spells and spend actions.
It's the only way this section makes sense:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Chill touch allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge from chill touch, per the rules on holding the charge on touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets. You must touch all the targets of chill touch in the same round that you finish casting chill touch.
Therefore, either you can only every touch one target with chill touch or you can touch as many opponents as you can reach (up to the one/level limitation of chill touch). Since the spell allows multiple targets, and since you cannot hold the charge past the round when you finish casting the spell, the only interpretation that makes sense is that the design intent is that you can touch up to one target per caster level in the round when you finish casting the spell. The touch attacks made would have to be considered part of the standard action to cast the spell. If you cannot do that, you can never affect more than one target with this spell. The same holds true for water breathing.
The one thing you specifically cannot do is hold the charge over to later rounds to deliver the attacks.
As previously stated, I don't like it, but it's the only way the current rules make sense. Really all they need is a line in chill touch specifying that you can hold the charge until it's used up, similar to the verbiage in produce flame.
As previously stated, I don't like it, but it's the only way the current rules make sense. Really all they need is a line in chill touch specifying that you can hold the charge until it's used up, similar to the verbiage in produce flame. [
I think you're right. It needs to state that Chill Touch is an exception to that rule. For now I guess I'll just treat it as if it is for my game.
So do you have to use those attacks consecutively?
Nope.
If you're not "holding the charge" (since that's illegal with spells where you touch multiple targets)
Chill Touch does not allow you to make those touches as part of casting the spell, so that clause does not apply. Chill Touch functions like every other touch spell. You can hold the charge until the spell is discharged or until you cast another spell.
Anyway, the rules are currently rather borky. Does anyone have an example of a spell that specifies you can touch multiple people as part of casting? I mean explicitly states it? It's implied with Shadow Walk, since it doesn't make sense otherwise. (As soon as you cast it, it sends you and the guys you touch to the plane of shadows. If you can't touch six friends as part of casting, you could only ever take one person with you.)
-edit- The posts are getting all out of order.
Anyway, the argument seems to hinge on whether "Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)" means it allows you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell.
I take it to mean you treat it like a normal touch spell, and the touch attack it grants you can be used 1/lv.
Others take it to mean that you can touch all those creatures as part of casting the spell, which means you get CL touch attacks with the same standard action to cast, can't hold the charge, and generally breaks everything.
Since Chill Touch doesn't specify if those touches are granted as part of casting the spell or if they're just granted as a result of having cast (past tense) the spell, we're forced to interpret how it works. I don't really see chill touch doing more damage than scorching ray at levels 5, 6, 9, 10, and 13+ (ignoring the crazy Str damage) as being reasonable or balanced.
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Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.There is nothing to say that chill touch gets an exception to this rule, just like water breathing does not get an exception.
There is also no general rule that I could find that said spells which allows you to touch enemies gets an exception either.
Without such a rule the spells are to be treated the same.If anyone has found a quote I have missed giving chill touch an exception please post it.
Wraith, the rules I have been quoting state the max a caster could touch in one round as a full-round action is 6. If a 20th level caster could touch up to 20 creatures, but is limited to touching 6 in a round, when would he be able to touch the remaining 14 creatures if all 20 would have to be touched in the same round?
Spells like Teleportation, Etherealness, etc have language in it indicating that the "targets" have to be in contact or touched at the time the spell takes effect.
Spells like Chill Touch, or Hide From Animals do not have such restrictive language, but allows a number of creatures or touches based on the caster level of the spell. These spells allow multiple touches that can occur over multiple rounds.
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I've always assumed that the language was put in place to limit the effectiveness of the spell in a combat. In essence forcing the party to coordinate actions if it is critical that the spell go off, but to not be overly burdensome during precombat buffing. Rewarding preparation over reaction.
ps always carry a meta-magic road of reach...
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The post link is the one to the right of the poster's name, either a time stamp or "X Minutes Ago".
Thanks!
Now look at Table: Actions in Combat under Full-Round Action: "Use a touch spell on up to six friends"
The full round action is to touch friends, not enemies.
Yes. And making a touch attack is a standard action. (It's a free action only when you cast the spell that round)
The Action Table is not an "All Inclusive" list, but rather lists common examples. By your own volition, if we could only go by what is listed, melee touch attacks are NOT standard actions because they are not listed in the list.
Chapter 9 of the CRB (the Magic Chapter) does not say that when you touch 6 targets that they HAVE to be allies or willing targets. It says:
If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Targets. Not WILLING Targets. An example of how this sentence applies:
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
The caster of such a spell could touch 6 creatures as a full round action. Each successful touch does 1d6 points of damage and a possible 1 point of strength (not 20d6 + 20 strength as one poster surmised - the damage doesn't increase with caster level).
Now, the sentence in Chapter 9 just prior to the previously quoted sentence does address "willing targets". That sentence reads:
You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
An example of how this sentence applies:
This spell functions like ethereal jaunt, except that you and other willing creatures joined by linked hands (along with their equipment) become ethereal. Besides yourself, you can bring one creature per three caster levels to the Ethereal Plane. Once ethereal, the subjects need not stay together.
When the spell expires, all affected creatures on the Ethereal Plane return to material existence.
So, in order for this spell to affect other willing targets, they must be in contact with you at the time you cast the spell.