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I noticed what I think is an unintentional interaction with the Beast Rider archetype for the Cavalier and the Horse Master feat.
Normally, Beast Rider Cavaliers cannot take Horse Master because they lose the Expert Trainer class feature.
However, according to the additional resources page:
A cavalier of 4th-level or higher may take the Horse Master feat, ignoring the expert trainer class feature prerequisite.
Since a Beast Rider Cavalier is still a Cavalier, that means they ignore the Expert Trainer class feature prerequisite for PFS play, and they can actually take Horse Master.
Should the additional resources be re-worded? Or am I interpreting something wrong?
Nice catch. I'm sure it'll be fixed soon.
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Updated Additional Resources. It should be in tomorrow's update. Thanks for pointing that out.
I know it's a rules question, but considering it affects the legality of my character in OP, can we get any kind of ruling on what kind of mounts a 4th level medium Beast Rider can select? The choices offered in the Archetype description violate the restrictions given.
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I know it's a rules question, but considering it affects the legality of my character in OP, can we get any kind of ruling on what kind of mounts a 4th level medium Beast Rider can select? The choices offered in the Archetype description violate the restrictions given.Updated Additional Resources. It should be in tomorrow's update. Thanks for pointing that out.
Technically, they don't. You get access to some cool things (like a lion), but it's medium sized. So as a medium creature yourself you just can't ride it yet. At level 7 it increases to size large, and you can. So you either have a horse until 7, or a lion for 3 levels that you can flank with, but can't ride.
It's a little unfortunate for those cavaliers, like yours and mine, especially with the level cap of PFS, but nothing in addition to the animals already listed as ACs for the Beast Rider needs to be added. Petitioning for a rules change to allow for some rideable level 4 mounts for medium Beast Riders is another boat altogether, and one that's not PFS-centric.
I know it's a rules question, but considering it affects the legality of my character in OP, can we get any kind of ruling on what kind of mounts a 4th level medium Beast Rider can select? The choices offered in the Archetype description violate the restrictions given.Updated Additional Resources. It should be in tomorrow's update. Thanks for pointing that out.
Technically, they don't. You get access to some cool things (like a lion), but it's medium sized. So as a medium creature yourself you just can't ride it yet. At level 7 it increases to size large, and you can. So you either have a horse until 7, or a lion for 3 levels that you can flank with, but can't ride.
It's a little unfortunate for those cavaliers, like yours and mine, especially with the level cap of PFS, but nothing in addition to the animals already listed as ACs for the Beast Rider needs to be added. Petitioning for a rules change to allow for some rideable level 4 mounts for medium Beast Riders is another boat altogether, and one that's not PFS-centric.
I would agree with that interpretation, except:
At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose [a bunch of medium animals] as his mount.
It doesn't say "as his non-rideable animal companion." It says mount. As in something you ride. If I ask for a car at Hertz, they don't hand me a Matchbox car.
As written, it looks a lot like a trap to me.
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Here was the discussion on all this. Basically, until there's an official ruling (again, not PFS's department), we're out of luck.
Here was the discussion on all this. Basically, until there's an official ruling (again, not PFS's department), we're out of luck.
If I show up at a Society game with a medium character and a medium tiger and the GM says I can't ride it, I consider that a Society problem. If they don't want to deal with it, they shouldn't have allowed the archetype.
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Here was the discussion on all this. Basically, until there's an official ruling (again, not PFS's department), we're out of luck.If I show up at a Society game with a medium character and a medium tiger and the GM says I can't ride it, I consider that a Society problem. If they don't want to deal with it, they shouldn't have allowed the archetype.
You can't ride a medium creature while being size medium. The GM would be enforcing the rules. You are more than invited to ride a horse, or not mount the creature.
Initial statement under Beast Rider:
At 1st level, a beast rider forms a bond with a strong, loyal companion that permits him to ride it as a mount. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the beast rider’s level as his effective druid level. The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).
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Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose <other medium mounts that become large at level 7>
You can pick a horse at level 1, and still, legally, have a mount to use at level 4. You gain access to those other "mounts" at level 4 but until level 7 you cannot ride them. Again, it is unfortunate, but it is explicitly stated in the rules of the class what you can and cannot do with it.
To argue with a society GM over something that is explained in the rules, or to "make it his problem" doesn't make much sense to me. Especially since your real qualms is with the person who wrote the archetype.
The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider
At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose <other medium mounts> as his mount
That is internally inconsistent.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the restrictions on the size of the mount you can choose have implicitly been lifted at level 4 but the size of the mount you can ride has not.
Do you honestly think that the intent of this archetype was to have a non-functional mount for three levels?
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You have a functional mount from levels 1-6. A horse or a camel. I believe it was a poor choice of editing for the archetype, but I believe what they intended was to have large sized exotic mounts available at level 7. The way it was formatted was to copy paste the level 4 druidic animal companions (the ones that had 4 legs) and then apply the level 7 advanced template to them (thus increasing their size to large).
Regardless, this isn't the proper forum for that debate.
Regardless, this isn't the proper forum for that debate.
As a paladin, your divine bond mount must be at least one size category larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC, your mount must be at least Medium. You may only select a mount from the listed mounts on page 63 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook unless another source grants access to additional creature choices. As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play except when granted from another legal source.
According to the PFS FAQ, your mount must be Large if you are a medium PC. But then it allows mounts granted from another legal source (which includes the Beast Rider from UC). So does a Medium-sized mount explicitly granted from a legal source supersede the requirement that a Medium PC's mount must be Large?
This isn't even a question of what you can ride, this is a question of what you can have as your mount.
Remember, the Archetype specifies that they are selecting the creature as their mount.
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redward, you are trying to argue a something that is part of a different rule.
Do the affect each other? Sure. Is there some overlap? Sure.
But the overriding rule of mounts in Pathfinder (not PFS, but the entirety of the game system) is the mount must be 1 size larger than the rider.
An archetype is not going to overrule that unless it explicitly says so.
You might find some GM's who would interpret things the way you do. And if you do, great, pick a Lion for your mount at level 4.
But don't be surprised if the majority of GM's are not going to allow it.
You've been warned on here, that most GM's would follow the rule that mounts must be one size larger. As such, you should be ready for the fact that between level 4 and 7, you might not get to ride an exotic mount.
redward, you are trying to argue a something that is part of a different rule.
Do the affect each other? Sure. Is there some overlap? Sure.
But the overriding rule of mounts in Pathfinder (not PFS, but the entirety of the game system) is the mount must be 1 size larger than the rider.
An archetype is not going to overrule that unless it explicitly says so.
You might find some GM's who would interpret things the way you do. And if you do, great, pick a Lion for your mount at level 4.
But don't be surprised if the majority of GM's are not going to allow it.
You've been warned on here, that most GM's would follow the rule that mounts must be one size larger. As such, you should be ready for the fact that between level 4 and 7, you might not get to ride an exotic mount.
I am not aware of any such rule in Pathfinder; if you can provide a link or citation, I would be grateful as it does come up from time to time. I have been told that the rule existed in 3.5, but AD&D was my last experience with that franchise.
I am not arguing Walter's interpretation. I actually agree that he has correctly explained the RAW. I am also not trying to get a large mount for my character. My Cavalier is shelved because I have learned the hard way that medium-sized cavaliers are not well-suited to organized play.
I am asking because a lot of new players--like me--will be drawn to this archetype and may not see the trap until it's too late. A player that does not frequent the boards, and who has a less careful GM in their local games may show up somewhere and learn their Lion is not usable as a mount for their next three levels. And they will not be able to replace that mount with a Horse or Camel until they level up. And that sucks.
I would hope that Paizo would show some concern over players being tricked into removing a defining characteristic of their character's class for a quarter of its playable life in OP.
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On initial scan I cannot find a specific place that says, "mounts must be one size larger than their rider" as far as I can tell.
However:
If you look in the equipment section for Mounts in the core rule book, you will see that riding dogs say they are trained to carry a small mount.
Horses say that they are good for (the races that are all medium) and Ponies for halflings and gnomes.
Under Cavalier, Samurai, and Paladin, it explains which mounts are for small riders and which are for medium riders.
In every case above, large mounts are for medium riders, medium mounts are for small riders.
On initial scan I cannot find a specific place that says, "mounts must be one size larger than their rider" as far as I can tell.
And I don't think you'll find it. As far as I can tell, there is no such overriding rule.
Again, my point is not to argue that a Medium character can or should be able to ride a Medium mount. My point is that lacking such an overriding rule in the CRB, and considering that the Beast Rider archetype specifically allows a 4th-level Medium character to select a Medium animal as its mount, it is entirely reasonable for someone to think that they should be able to ride the animal they select from that list at level 4. Which makes it a trap.
Not a big deal for home games where the GM can size up the animal, undo the choice, or anything else they like. But it is a big deal for organized play. Which is why I was raising the question in the PFS forum (before Michael moved it back here where it will continue to be studiously ignored).
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On initial scan I cannot find a specific place that says, "mounts must be one size larger than their rider" as far as I can tell.And I don't think you'll find it. As far as I can tell, there is no such overriding rule.
Again, my point is not to argue that a Medium character can or should be able to ride a Medium mount. My point is that lacking such an overriding rule in the CRB, and considering that the Beast Rider archetype specifically allows a 4th-level Medium character to select a Medium animal as its mount, it is entirely reasonable for someone to think that they should be able to ride the animal they select from that list at level 4. Which makes it a trap.
Not a big deal for home games where the GM can size up the animal, undo the choice, or anything else they like. But it is a big deal for organized play. Which is why I was raising the question in the PFS forum (before Michael moved it back here where it will continue to be studiously ignored).
It's not being ignored. It's been moved here to grab the attention of the design team. Stop being so cynical.
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I'd also like to see something addressed about normal cavaliers. I see no reason why a 7th level medium Cavalier could not ride a (now large) wolf as his mount. But per RAW, wolf is only ever a selection for small cavaliers.
It would be nice to have this obvious oversight fixed.
It's not being ignored. It's been moved here to grab the attention of the design team. Stop being so cynical.On initial scan I cannot find a specific place that says, "mounts must be one size larger than their rider" as far as I can tell.And I don't think you'll find it. As far as I can tell, there is no such overriding rule.
Again, my point is not to argue that a Medium character can or should be able to ride a Medium mount. My point is that lacking such an overriding rule in the CRB, and considering that the Beast Rider archetype specifically allows a 4th-level Medium character to select a Medium animal as its mount, it is entirely reasonable for someone to think that they should be able to ride the animal they select from that list at level 4. Which makes it a trap.
Not a big deal for home games where the GM can size up the animal, undo the choice, or anything else they like. But it is a big deal for organized play. Which is why I was raising the question in the PFS forum (before Michael moved it back here where it will continue to be studiously ignored).
I didn't mean to imply that you were burying it, so much as it is a subject that has thus far been met with a resounding silence in the Rules forum (as evidenced by Walter's link to a previous discussion of the matter from August of last year).
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I've talked to the Design team about this topic. Here is a summation of their response:
There is no explicit rule in the Core Rulebook that says a Medium creature can't ride a Medium mount, but it is implied in secondary rules, such as the description of the riding dog and horse and the description of the paladin's divine bond. And it's explicitly called out in the beast rider archetype: "The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character)."
Yes, the beast rider archetype (UC page 36) offers Medium riders extra animal companion choices, and at that level some of those cavalier's companions will be Medium rather than Large. But at the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule still applies. So unless you're beast rider level is high enough to make the animal in that list mount-appropriate for you, you can't select it as a mount. It's presented the way it is so we didn't have to have separate 4th- and 7th-level lists for Small and Medium characters (space is short, and writing it that way is cumbersome because at 7th level you'd either have to look at two lists, as in "anything from the previous list plus these new ones," or repeat all of the 4th-level list in the 7th-level list).
Another way to look at it from a different situation. The fighter class gets bonus combat feats. But that class feature still follows the normal prerequisite rules for selecting feats—a 2nd-level fighter can't select Weapon Specialization because he doesn't meet the "fighter 4th" prerequisite. A 2nd-level fighter arguing "but it just told me I can select a combat feat, and Weapon Specialization is a combat feat!" doesn't hold water; you don't meet the prerequisites, so you can't select it.
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So unless you're beast rider level is high enough to make the animal in that list mount-appropriate for you, you can't select it as a mount. It's presented the way it is so we didn't have to have separate 4th- and 7th-level lists for Small and Medium characters (space is short, and writing it that way is cumbersome because at 7th level you'd either have to look at two lists, as in "anything from the previous list plus these new ones," or repeat all of the 4th-level list in the 7th-level list).
Thank you for the response--sincerely. I'm a little confused, though, because there are separate 4th and 7th level lists for Small and Medium characters (the list for 7th Small characters adds only two more options). And for the 4th-level Medium characters, all of the listed options are Medium animals. In other words, all of the options presented are options they may not legally select.
If it's intended as you present it, it should probably read:
Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 7th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, giant snapping turtle, tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.
In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear). To generate statistics for such a mount, apply the following modifications...
I suppose that will be fixed in the next printing of the CRB.
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I suppose that will be fixed in the next printing of the CRB.
I hope so. As it is, redward is 100% correct. The reasoning given by the design team doesn't actually make any sense. There already are separate lists for Small and Medium characters, and the 4th level list for Medium characters doesn't have any animals that can legally be selected. The text needs to be fixed.
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So that means I've been playing a cavalier almost every time I can since spring and he finally got his 9th boon sheet (I don't get to play very often) and I'm stuck with the same horse I've been trying to kill every scenario since the character's creation? I was really looking forward to finally scrapping all of those horses and start riding dinosaurs from Garund. I even had a way too long story written for him beginning to ride large beasts, getting lost, befriending an uncivilized tribe (yes I am well aware of how cliché that is), seeking redemption, and quitting the Order of the Cockatrice to create his own order using the Knight Errant mechanics. I can't believe after all those hours maybe days of closely comparing the different possible mounts that they were all medium until 7th level (I must sound like an ex synthesist/master summoner). This especially annoying to me because I had to put up with almost never using my mount and so I had been saving up money for adamantine plate to put over my brachiosaurus' tail to smash through walls. Finally, is there any way I can get a large exotic mount other than an axe beak from the Quest for Perfection trilogy before 7th level as a medium cavalier?
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What about a medium Cavalier with an improved Hat of Disguise that Alter Self's into a small creature. He can then legally ride the medium sized animals from 4th until 7th level when he can alter self into a medium creature or sell the hat.
is that legit? i got access somewhere to an improved hat of disguise but I never looked up the actual functions of it.
PFS specific request: can some exotic 4th level animals be added to the medium cavalier list?
ex: Axebeak, Giant Chameleon are the only two I see that are Large at 4th level.
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I claim that this is what is actively discouraging me from enjoying Pathfinder. instead of clearly clarifying the archetype you have invalidated it and made it somewhat useless all of a sudden you have made this one class unable to ride 2 legged beasts?? whereas every other class can. That is redonculous!!
every thread i have read about this issue is rife with arguments due to your official ruling not making common sense.
Next there will be a ruling stating that my Gnome or halfling Druids cant ride their Kangaroo Animal companions!!! every American knows that Kangaroo's are a staple riding beast in Australia.
As an American living in OZ...
I LOL'ed.
This is another one of those 'whups!' things I'd love to see a Dev answer for.
I get the impression that fixing archetypes is a fairly low priority, as they only affect those who choose to use them. Also, a mistake that makes an archetype worse tends to be less troublesome for game balance than a mistake that makes an archetype too powerful.
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Well as I am working on a possible Beast Rider I came upon this problem as well. All over the boards are plenty of people arguing one way or another on this, and I feel this issue needs to have some resolution.
At 4th level you get an exotic Mount - keyword again on Mount - and soo many of those on the list are large or huge (in original form), yet via the Animal Companion adjustments end up only medium sized. Which creates a problem with actually riding it as your mount.
Given the whole POINT of the Cavalier class is as a mounted combatant, it seems to be a real issue in the rules here. Being able to pick a mount you can't mount is silly, as is being forced to sit around with a plain old Horse until level 7. Especially when Druids and Paladins can get all sorts of fun stuff at earlier levels (and aren't as Based on actual mounted combat).
I can understand some worry about using the fully stated large or huge creatures at level 4, but it would be nice to have an exotic mount you can actually ride at this level as is intended by the class. Perhaps they could come out with some kind of adjustments for the creatures to make them a bit more balanced, or even use the Medium sized stats but treat it as large for the sake of riding and space occupied.
I really hope something can be done with this so that the class is more viable and doesn't feel like you just get the shaft from levels 4-7.
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Personally, I am strongly disappointed in Paizo's dev team for not addressing this issue better. I've had a character concept that I was able to recreate in 2e, 3.5e, and 4e, but currently not in PF. I just want to make a human dire wolf rider (inspired by the Wolf Nomads of Greyhawk). Cavalier as a class works fairly well, but none of the orders have any primal/barbarian feel to them (so I'll have to create my own; kinda a bummer, IMO). The Beast Rider archetype, IMO, is a complete mess and needs another go around of development. Why not allow the size medium mounts to carry a size medium character as long as the carrying capacity works? Why does the BEAST rider even HAVE to pick a horse or camel at level 1!? Talk about limiting choices, and I'm not seeing a good reason for it.
I'm all for balance, and some critters are certainly too strong to give out too early, but sheesh. Maybe just disable the special features of the mount (i.e.: wolf trip) until level 7 (or use the horse stats but allow it to be reflavored in organized play). And for pete's sake, allow flying mounts at the higher levels! A high level (15+) cavalier riding a pegasus, griffon or hippogriff is fairly iconic, and far from overpowered.
