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I went throw the Hero Lab program to do up my forth character (Crawford, Tengu monk) and want to confirm my understanding of the Adopted trait.
Currently, I have the Adopted trait and have chosen Etymologist as my Racial Trait. The program currently does not recognize Etymologist as a Racial trait and is further pinging me on having two Social Traits. (Adopted and Etymologist)
It is my understanding that I can choose Etymologist as a part of Adopted, even if it is a Social Trait as well as being a Racial Trait.
Am I right?
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I went throw the Hero Lab program to do up my forth character (Crawford, Tengu monk) and want to confirm my understanding of the Adopted trait.
Currently, I have the Adopted trait and have chosen Etymologist as my Racial Trait. The program currently does not recognize Etymologist as a Racial trait and is further pinging me on having two Social Traits. (Adopted and Etymologist)
It is my understanding that I can choose Etymologist as a part of Adopted, even if it is a Social Trait as well as being a Racial Trait.
Am I right?
The Adopted just allows you to pick a Race Trait of a race other than that which you are.
And to be clear, this is a Race Trait, not a Racial Trait. I have had that argument with one too many PFS players who thought they could pick the Ability modifiers for a second race due to the Adopted Trait ...
EDIT: from what I can tell, Etymologist is a Gnome Social Trait, not a Race Trait ... if that makes any sense.
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Zylphryx:
FYI: Etymologist, from the Gnomes of Golarion book, is a race trait. But it is also a Social Trait, as is Adopted.
So, the question is whether Etymologist, as both a Race Trait (Gnome) and a Social Trait, is a legitimate choice for the Adopted trait, or is it excluded from consideration, as it is a Social Trait as well?
Honestly Social traits make the most sense for Adopted to me as it gets weird with things like Toothy.
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Zylphryx:
FYI: Etymologist, from the Gnomes of Golarion book, is a race trait. But it is also a Social Trait, as is Adopted.
So, the question is whether Etymologist, as both a Race Trait (Gnome) and a Social Trait, is a legitimate choice for the Adopted trait, or is it excluded from consideration, as it is a Social Trait as well?
Yep, that's what I was trying to say (though you phrased the question at the end of your response a bit clearer than I did). Since it is both a Race and a Social Trait, I think that would kick it out of the "pick a Race Trait" grouping (i.e. - it is a race specific social trait).
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You cannot have two social traits and both of these traits are social traits.
However, it would make sense that one trait would cancel out the other since you are still left with essentially a single trait slot.
It's not like you have three trait slots - you are not adding an extra trait.
I would say this is ok to do. If it were not ok the adopted trait would probably say something to the effect of 'excluding further social traits'.
Because this is for Society play, I would say that none of the traits from Gnomes of Golarion are available by way of Adopted because they are not categorized as a Race Trait in the way those are done in the APG and Traits Web Enhancement. Adopted lets you take things like the two Gnome Race traits from the APG, Animal Friend and Rapscallion, and not traits from the Basic Trait categories that also happen to be restricted to a specific race. In other words, it has to be classified as a Race Trait, not from one of the other categories that just happens to be racially restricted.
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You cannot have two social traits and both of these traits are social traits.
However, it would make sense that one trait would cancel out the other since you are still left with essentially a single trait slot.
It's not like you have three trait slots - you are not adding an extra trait.
I would say this is ok to do. If it were not ok the adopted trait would probably say something to the effect of 'excluding further social traits'.
That was my thinking as well.
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Because this is for Society play, I would say that none of the traits from Gnomes of Golarion are available by way of Adopted because they are not categorized as a Race Trait in the way those are done in the APG and Traits Web Enhancement. Adopted lets you take things like the two Gnome Race traits from the APG, Animal Friend and Rapscallion, and not traits from the Basic Trait categories that also happen to be restricted to a specific race. In other words, it has to be classified as a Race Trait, not from one of the other categories that just happens to be racially restricted.
The section at the beginning of the trait section in Gnomes of Golarion specifically state that all the traits therein are considered race traits.
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It's not like you have three trait slots - you are not adding an extra trait.
Actually, that's exactly what you get.
When you select this feat, it says to immediately select a trait from your adopted race. Is this a free race trait to go with adopted or would the Adopted and (x race trait) count as your 2 traits?It's a free trait (in addition to the Adopted Trait). So technically, you'll have 3 traits, but since Adopted only gives you another trait, you effectively have just 2 traits, since you're only getting bonuses from 2 traits.
Correct: taking the "Adopted" trait gives you a 3rd trait, as long as that 3rd trait is a race trait of a race other than your actual race.
Why'd we do it this way, rather than say "you can pick ANY race trait?" Because traits are supposed to tie in to and define your character's background, and by setting "Adopted" up as a social trait that anyone can take, it drives home the fact that you're adopted without any question or doubt.
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I believe that I will keep the character as it is, even with the program having validation errors.
With the quotes from the Devs, it seems that the intent is to allow one to get any trait from the adopted race, even if it is another social one, as the Adopted trait is simply a place holder for the chosen racial trait, one normally not available for the character.
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I have been thinking on this. Why would it mention the Adopted trait in the book if some of the traits (ie, social racial traits) couldn't be chosen with it? It is strange. I understand the reasoning behind categorizing the traits as the race still wouldn't take a combat trait along with a combat racial trait, but the Social aspect of Adopted would make it so that the character would be able to take traits from this section. Why exclude three of them because they are also social traits as well as racial traits?
Perhaps the Adopted traits needs clarification in the Character Traits web givaway, to specifically mention that Racial traits can be chosen with it no matter what category they come from, making sure that other traits that is not Adopted are not conflicting with the chosen Racial trait. (Chosing a combat racial trait with Deft Dodger, for example)
Really, your not getting two traits, but trading up Adopted for a racial trait that is not of your race.
Alright, I asked about this in a different thread, sort of by accident, and did get an official answer:
Just an FYI, I talked to James Jacobs. Adopted is a social trait. Etymologist is considered a racial and a social trait both. Therefore, a player wouldn't be able to use Adopted trait to take Etymologist trait.
Basically, as long as something is listed as a Racial Trait in addition to it's normal trait category, so long as it is not also a Social Trait, you can take it with Adopted.
So some traits can have double restrictions? I wonder if we'll see more double restricted traits in the upcoming race guide...
Actually, I think all the traits in the different race books, like Gnomes of Golarion or Elves of Golarion, have counted as both race traits and the basic trait category they are listed with. There are race traits that are just race traits, like the ones in the Traits chapter of the APG and those in the regional sourcebooks, but there seem to be less of them than of the ones that fit two trait categories.
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Really.
Well, I am gonna have to completely remake this character, then, and forget the broken Adopted trait completely.
I will have to use the Cosmopolitan feat to make Linquesits a class skill, and go over other social traits to see what I want instead.
If you can't use Adopted like this, it may be better to take it out of the trait section completely.
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Now I am more confused. Rapscallion appears in both the gnome (As a Combat/Gnome racial trait) and in the Advanced Player's Guide (As a Race Trait) So, is it considered a combat trait because of the Gnome of Golarion, or just a Race Trait as in the Advanced Player's Guide?
This is getting weird.
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An update on Krawford, the character I wanted to use Etymologist for.
I now have Deft Dodger (Kept from before) and Unorthodox Strategy for my traits and only know 9 languages now instead of ten, my Linguistics skill going down to 10.
Sucks that Adopted can't allow a part of the limited selection of Racial Traits. That one trait was the reason for my purchase of Gnomes of Golarion and now it is a wasted purchase.
Thank you for clearing up that little tidbit. I hope that Adopted can be replaced in the future with a more useful trait.
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I hope that Adopted can be replaced in the future with a more useful trait.
I think you are way overreacting...
There are an extreme rare amount of traits that are both Racial and Social, the Vast Majority of the Racial Traits you can still take.
It is not broken just because you can't take the one trait you want.
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Even though it says I can in the very book the trait is in.
"(Of course, a character of a different race could still select a gnome racial trait if she has the Adopted trait presented in the Pathfinder RPG Character Traits Web Enhancement)"
Why put this in if the Social traits are excluded?
I have given up at this point, since a Dev has stated that limitation is there. I have changed the character and thrown away the book.
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Been thinking on this.... How would Paizo errata the Adopted trait?
There is one of three ways it could go...
First there is the common fix for all of them "Replace the last sentence with the following. 'As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and socity, and may immediately select a race or racial trait from your adoptive parents' race.
- Add the following 'Adopted allows for a choice of racial traits that are considered social traits (Such as those found in the Player Companion books for the various races) even though Adopted is also a social trait. Adopted acts as a place holder for the third trait, so the new racial trait is considered a part of the adopted trait. You still have to keep the other traits in mind with your choice, as you still can't have the Deft Dodger combat trait and the Rapscallion racial trait as both are considered Combat traits.'
- Add the following 'Only use those racial traits that are social traits (as that is what Adopted is, a social trait). The gnome, for example, has the choices of Animal Friend, Brastlewark Businessman, Collector, Explorer and Etymologist.'
- Add the following 'You can not choose Social Racial Traits. The adopted truly only lives in the background, learning ways of the adopted race in all manor but is socially absent in the family. The adopted person is most likely considered the elephant guy, no social qualities whatsoever, and never truly becomes a part of the family or makes any friends of the adopted race. Chose any other racial trait, but not any social ones.'
Obviously, Paizo is going with the last one.
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The Adopted trait says that you can take a race trait (and not a racial trait, which is a very different thing). That's what it means.
If Gnomes of Golarion says that Adopted lets you take a social or combat trait, the secondary source is in error. It needs either to reclassify Etymologist and the rest as race traits, or explicitly add to the effect of Adopted to provide access also to traits from other lists that are restricted by race (and to allow the character to have two social traits by this means). It's a bit of a mess.
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OK, from the sourcebook:
Although the traits presented below are broken into several different categories, all are considered gnome racial traits.
If this were to read "gnome race traits", it would be clearer: all traits in the Gnome Character Traits chapter are both (either) gnome race traits and (or) traits from the stated list. A gnome character can select and count each of these either as a race trait or as a trait of a different list. A character using the Adopted trait gains any one of these traits as a gnome race trait.
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That is what I thought as well, but an official source was quoted in a post above saying that one could not have two social traits. (In this case, have both Adopted and Etymologist. (Even if Adopted allows my Tengu to take it) Both are considered Social traits, hence the post above.
It is a moot point anyways, I already changed the character.
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You bought a whole book for access to one trait, and then the trait didn't do what you thought it did.
I understand the frustration, but the trait is fine as-is.
Etymology does exactly what I wanted it to do, it is the question of whether or not I, as a Tengu, can use it with the Adopted trait. The Gnomes book infers that I can, but the Social grouping of the Race trait has it at odds with the very trait that I am using to get it.
Everything in Gnomes is fine, it is Adopted in the Traits web handout and the Advanced Player's Guide that the question is about.
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Is there someone official that can look into this?
My feeling is that a qualifier would be added to the Adopted Trait, such as "The new Racial Trait gained with Adopted does not take Adopted into account for being a Social Trait. This would allow the character to take Racial Triats that are also Social traits."