My group is kind of rebooting right now, smaller in size and trying to dedicate ourselves to regular play despite busy lives. One of the things we all agreed on is that we like low-level play, we like the foes and the challenges among other things. The plan currently is to start at level 2 and then advance at a very slow pace - maybe 1/4 or 1/5 normal - topping out probably at level 6 and staying there a while. As such, we're looking to create characters that are fun and effective to play at levels 2-6...
I'm listing below the four builds we're currently leaning towards - I'm kind of the 'character builder' of the group and work with the other players to create characters they enjoy that are more or less optimized and this is what we've collectively come up with. Those of you whom have seen my posts in the past may recognize a couple of these guys. I'd really appreciate comments and critiques but more than that I'm looking for some character ideas I might not have considered. This is a relatively magic-light campaign so nothing is guaranteed equipment-wise and we tend to face some pretty serious challenges so keep that in mind when offering suggestions. Characters are put together using a 25 point buy. Role-playability is paramount, but a character who can't keep up in combat won't be any fun to play. We figure at lower levels casters generally suffer and that kind of fits anyway with a low magic theme of the campaign.
Special potions of healing do exist in our game - they can be drank or applied directly to wounds, one potion heals you up to 100% and you have the option to drink half of it. They aren't cheap, but they are available enough in adequate numbers to supplement a party not having a great deal of healing available.
Characters currently under consideration (4 spots):
Human Paladin of Sarenrae (Oath of Vengeance)
Str - 16 (+2 racial bonus)
Dex - 12
Con - 13 (+1 at 4th level)
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 16
Feats:
1st - Weapon Focus: Scimitar
1st - Extra Lay on Hands
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
Human Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter)
Str - 16 (+2 racial bonus)
Dex - 13
Con - 16
Int - 13
Wis - 13 (+1 at 4th level)
Cha - 7
Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Improved Sunder
6th - Lunge
Halfling Summoner (Master Summoner)
Str - 10 (-2 racial bonus)
Dex - 14 (+2 racial bonus)
Con - 12
Int - 13
Wis - 12
Cha - 17 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th level)
Feats:
1st - Extra Summons
2nd - Augmented Summoning
3rd - Superior Summoning
5th - Improved Initiative
Eidolon designed as a small scout/rogue using Skilled evolutions (Stealth, Perception, Disable Device, UMD).
Human Monk (Zen Archer, Vow of Truth)
Str - 14
Dex - 15 (+1 at 4th level)
Con - 14
Int - 10
Wis - 16 (+2 racial bonus)
Cha - 8
Feats:
1st - Improved Initiative
1st - Toughness
1st - Improved Unarmed Strike
1st - Precise Shot
1st - Perfect Strike (Special)
2nd - Weapon Focus: Longbow
2nd - Point-Blank Shot
3rd - Point-Blank Master
3rd - Snake Style
5th - Skill Focus: Sense Motive
6th - Weapon Specialization: Longbow
6th - Improved Precise Shot
It all looks pretty good. In a low level campaign look into multi-classing to get the most out of saves, bundle a rogue with a fighter for a more dexterous fighter that can deal some great damage at low levels.
I see you have the monk up there but look into some other glass cannon type classes as full 6 level classes. Look into straight rogue or ranger
If your pally is going to be your main healer, why not Hospitaler? I think it's better than Vengance here.
This would free up a Feat.
Note that Master Summoner tends to be a huge spotlight hog.
I dont think the pally is supposed to be "healer"...
Note that Master Summoner tends to be a huge spotlight hog.
I know.
He's the one I'm playing. ;-P
Seriously though, I know how to play him. Its very rare that I have more than one Summons out at a time - I usually keep my Eidolon available because, at those levels, a super stealthed scout who can report back telepathically is just too valuable not to have around all the time. He's also our only rogue. I have no doubt everyone will get their chance to shine though - the Pally against the BBEG's, the Greatsword Fighter against the inevitable hordes and the Zen Archer against ranged and aerial threats. I just get to help with all three - the typical combat for him goes: Round 1) Summon 2-4 of the appropriate elementals (I'm a big fan), Eddy tries to use Wand of Magic Missiles, Round 2) Cast Haste on group, Eddy tries to use Wand of Magic Missiles, Round 3) Eddy and I both try to use Wands of Magic Missiles, or I re-summon if my original Summons has been taken out. The wands have kind of become our default ranged attack and we both make use of the UMD skill as best we can. They do get expensive, though...
The Paladin's not really going to be a main healer - those Extra Lay's are to gain Smites for Vengeance. We'll almost always have a few of those healing potions on hand that I mentioned, but this group isn't really the 'healing' type. No one wants to play a Cleric. On the flip side, Lantern Archons I summon can cast aid Other in the downtime between/before fights on every character.
There's actually some discussion about the Paladin's feats - his gameplan is/was to go sword and board to tank when appropriate, but to carry a two-hander for when he needs to cut loose... but with my eidolon scouting and my summoned creatures tanking, there's the feeling that he could just go two-handed full time and grab Power Attack and Furious Focus with his first level feats... BUT he also doesn't want to mimic the Greatsword Fighter too closely. His is the character most unsettled at the moment, but I'll tell you this - Powerful Justice goes a long way when he's surrounded by a batch of newly summoned augmented and hasted creatures.
The Paladin's not really going to be a main healer - those Extra Lay's are to gain Smites for Vengeance. We'll almost always have a few of those healing potions on hand that I mentioned, but this group isn't really the 'healing' type. No one wants to play a Cleric. ..
Yes, but sometimes you do need a in combat healer, and drinking potions provoke and cost party resources. Channeling does not provoke (which is very nice in combat, and you can take the feat that allows you to exclude your foes). The thing is, but taking Hospitaler, you don't need as many Lay on Hands as Hospitaler doesn't pay double for Channeling.
This is one of the things I like about PF. Several classes can do the occ in combat healing and still not be relegated to "Healbot". My Pally is quite as a good tank, but can also heal when needed.
Inquisitor & Witch also can fill the "occ in combat healing" role.
Human Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter)
Str - 16 (+2 racial bonus)
Dex - 13
Con - 16
Int - 13
Wis - 13 (+1 at 4th level)
Cha - 7Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Improved Sunder
6th - Lunge
I really like the fighter build you put together. Looks very effective in combat while allowing interesting tactical options. I do have a rules question though.
The text for Whirlwind Attack reads:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Do they mean that any feat granting a bonus to attacks doesn't stack (i.e., Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization or Power Attack) or do they mean to say that any feat granting bonus attacks doesn't stack (i.e., Two Weapon Fighting)? I imagine the RAI is the latter but would prefer to be on sound footing before putting together a build that features Whirlwind attack.
bonus (attacks) or extra attacks
I would swap out the fighter for a bard considering the paladin, zen archer, and master summoner. Also if you have another slot I suggest a debuffer/control or a cleric of destruction.
I really like the fighter build you put together. Looks very effective in combat while allowing interesting tactical options. I do have a rules question though.The text for Whirlwind Attack reads:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Do they mean that any feat granting a bonus to attacks doesn't stack (i.e., Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization or Power Attack) or do they mean to say that any feat granting bonus attacks doesn't stack (i.e., Two Weapon Fighting)? I imagine the RAI is the latter but would prefer to be on sound footing before putting together a build that features Whirlwind attack.
I think you're a touch confused with regards to how Whirlwind Attack works. You get to make a single attack against every target at your highest BAB - which includes any bonuses from strength, Focus, Specilization, anything you would normally get if you were to make a standard attack... what you don't get is any bonus additional attacks like those granted by Haste, Cleave or your normal iterative attacks.
And yeah, at low levels he's as solid a build as you're going to find. He was my first character with Pathfinder actually... I made him using the Two-Handed Fighter archetype for this particular session since we aren't planning on going much higher than 6th level with him, but the real build is as a Weapon Master with a falchion and a whole host of Critical effects at higher levels. Its nice being able to stun-lock a balor ;)
Has your group checked out the E-6 rules? Sounds like your type of game. We have been playing a game for 6 months and last 3 months as 6th level PC, a lot of fun.
I'm actually not familiar with that - do you have a link or something?
I would swap out the fighter for a bard considering the paladin, zen archer, and master summoner. Also if you have another slot I suggest a debuffer/control or a cleric of destruction.
Unfortunately, no one is willing to play a Cleric (or a Bard) in the group... and if someone were to go, it'd probably be the Paladin as the Fighter is far and away our biggest damage dealer.
I really like the fighter build you put together. Looks very effective in combat while allowing interesting tactical options.
This is the original Fighter build (or the feats at least). The final three feat choices are actually up in the air, and cases have been made for the Step-Up line among other things...
Human Fighter (Weapon Master)
Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
6th - Lunge
7th - Furious Focus
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
9th - Iron Will
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
16th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Blind-Fight
19th - Improved Blind-Fight
20th - Greater Blind-Fight
How are you retraining Spring Attack to Whirlwind attack when you need Spring Attack to qualify for Whirlwind Attack?
How are you retraining Spring Attack to Whirlwind attack when you need Spring Attack to qualify for Whirlwind Attack?
By actually NOT retraining Spring Attack to Whirlwind Attack - I'm retraining Cleave to Whirlwind Attack at the same level that gaining Spring Attack makes me eligible for it.
You said that your group puts a big emphasis on roleplaying. Is there any particular reason that the Paladin worships Sarenrae? Given how compassionate Sarenrae is, I find the Oath of Vengeance to be an odd choice. From an RP prospective, Iomedae would seem like a more logical choice.
The Paladin - like all of these characters actually - is a derivative of another character I had played to great success. The original Paladin was an Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Sarenrae with a complex backstory and was on a journey for his own personal redemption. In truth, this particular incarnation would very likely be a worshipper of Iomedae as you say.
Ok. The placement through me off.
Ok. The placement through me off.
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize just how early you can get Whirlwind Attack if you plan it right. Also, its pre-req's like Spring Attack and Combat Expertise get a bad rap in my opinion...
I think you're a touch confused with regards to how Whirlwind Attack works. You get to make a single attack against every target at your highest BAB - which includes any bonuses from strength, Focus, Specilization, anything you would normally get if you were to make a standard attack... what you don't get is any bonus additional attacks like those granted by Haste, Cleave or your normal iterative attacks.Not quite right.
You make an attack against each opponent within reach.
You do NOT make ONE attack and APPLY it to each opponent within reach.
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As to other things.. I'm not all that impressed with the Zen archer's choices.
If you're looking for an archer.. perhaps consider going with Pal2(hunter)/Ran2(trapper, archery)/Ftr2 (your choice). It's down improved precise shot though.. but does find/remove traps.
If you're set on zen archer.. I'd go with the typical dwarf going with farther darkvision (no one expects parties to see farther than 60ft in the dark), deadly aim, and look out (making sure someone else gets this, as archers in PF should be making full attack actions in surprise rounds).
For the fighter, since you're saying that you're not reaching 7th.. two handed fighter doesn't make sense. How about lorewarden instead? You pick up combat expertise instead of bravery. You do lose armor profs, so you will want to multiclass for 2 levels... but you can do really well with those 7 stat points that don't need to be in INT, as well as picking up +2 on all combat maneuvers.
For the summoner-
Do you use traits? Assuming not, can you pick some up via 'additional traits' feat? There's one that gives +1hp/HD to fiendish creatures you summon, and some other nice ones that could work instead of just getting 1 more summon/day. Again if you're going to be at 6th for a long time.. don't take summoner6, sell your soul for diabolist1/summoner5 and pick up the Imp for another critter to command.-James
We do use traits, but they weren't included.
The misunderstanding over Whirlwind Attack is semantics. 'You get to make a single attack against every target at your highest BAB' meant that you make a single attack against the first one, then a single attack on the second one and so on. A single attack against every target - as opposed to multiple attacks against any of them.
The Zen Archer is working GREAT. Its mobility in particular has been one of its big pluses as well as the versatility offered by the use of Ki points. The character has his heart set on Slippers of Spider Climbing to further improve that mobility. The benefits of Snake Style have proven to be amazing as well. Deadly Aim is definitely something we've been discussing however, as we'd like to see the archer's damage increase beyond what it has been. As far as 'Find/Remove Traps', that's what the eidolon is for...
Our GM is very good about not meta-gaming from the villian's side.
The fighter was originally conceived as a Falchion-wielding Weapon Master, but since we were limiting it to 6th level, the final decision came down to being able to increase damage on a standard attack action, and Overhand Chop provides that... moreover Shattering Strike at 2nd provides a nice second option in combat and replaces Bravery which is less needed with a Paladin around. I'm looking at the Lore Warden now, and he definitely presents some intriguing idea for optimization, but it takes the character in a very different direction. Still, additional stat points are nothing to sneeze at...
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* Paladin... stats (20pt): STR:16,DEX:12,CON:14,INT:10,WIS:07,CHA+17. Feats: 1-WF:Scimitar, 1-Shield Focus, 3-Extra LoH, 5-Selective Channeling. COMBAT ROLE: front-rank AC tank & emergency mass-healer; OOC ROLE: high-society face, "good cop".
* Fighter: dwarf who eschews axe & board. Dump Mobility,Spring,Whirlwind for Combat Reflexes, Pushing Assault, and Catch Off Guard. Feats at 1st and 2nd: Power Attack, WF:bardiche, Combat Reflexes, Cleave. Stats (need higher DEX for Combat Reflexes): STR:16,DEX:13,CON+16,INT:14,WIS:11,CHA-05. COMBAT ROLE: second-rank DPR & reserve meatwall when pally must withdraw; OOC ROLE: "bad cop".
* Summoner: ...your listed stats are only 18pt-buy (so he can have a 14 INT instead of a 13). COMBAT ROLE: buff & battlefield control, OOC ROLE: low-society face & after-battle UMD healer.
* Lower the monk's CHA to 7 and raise his INT to 12. As a ranged combatant, he doesn't need Toughness; move SF:Sense Motive to 1st, and take Extra Ki at 5th. -- Given the glacial pace of advancement, it'll be more fun for him if his schtick of massive Sense Motive (including Snake Style's bonus) is on-line at 3rd. Role-play truth-teller low CHA as him always calling NPCs liars before they've gotten half a sentence out of their mouths. COMBAT ROLE: artillery; OOC ROLE: watchdog.
* Paladin... stats (20pt): STR:16,DEX:12,CON:14,INT:10,WIS:07,CHA+17. Feats: 1-WF:Scimitar, 1-Shield Focus, 3-Extra LoH, 5-Selective Channeling. COMBAT ROLE: front-rank AC tank & emergency mass-healer; OOC ROLE: high-society face, "good cop".
We're really tinkering around with the Paladin's feat selections right now, trying to decide between sticking with Oath of Vengeance or going another direction that will allow him to channel. He was designed as an 'economy of action' character, with swift heals and swift spells and to be as self-sufficient as possible, but that was in a larger group with a dedicated healer for the rest of the party. The ability to Channel actually has a greater appeal considering that summoned creatures will be able to benefit as well.
Keep in mind also that when we know combat is coming (which is usually given the scout's abilities), the combatants of the group are benefitting from a Lantern Archon-cast Aid spells.
* Fighter: dwarf who eschews axe & board. Dump Mobility,Spring,Whirlwind for Combat Reflexes, Pushing Assault, and Catch Off Guard. Feats at 1st and 2nd: Power Attack, WF:bardiche, Combat Reflexes, Cleave. Stats (need higher DEX for Combat Reflexes): STR:16,DEX:13,CON+16,INT:14,WIS:11,CHA-05. COMBAT ROLE: second-rank DPR & reserve meatwall when pally must withdraw; OOC ROLE: "bad cop".
I don't think I'm ever pulling the Fighter away from this build. He'd rather have Lunging Whirlwind Attack and be able to make multiple attacks every round than hoping someone comes into his threatened range as an awkward-seeming pole arm-wielding Dwarf. That guy deals some major damage for a low-level character.
* Summoner: ...your listed stats are only 18pt-buy (so he can have a 14 INT instead of a 13). COMBAT ROLE: buff & battlefield control, OOC ROLE: low-society face & after-battle UMD healer.
All of the character stats are based on a 25 point build actually - what you see written is before the racial and level bonuses in parenthesis are applied.
One of the things we're looking into is a one-level dip for the Master Summoner once he hits 5th level - the player is actually seriously considering grabbing a level of Bard.
* Lower the monk's CHA to 7 and raise his INT to 12. As a ranged combatant, he doesn't need Toughness; move SF:Sense Motive to 1st, and take Extra Ki at 5th. -- Given the glacial pace of advancement, it'll be more fun for him if his schtick of massive Sense Motive (including Snake Style's bonus) is on-line at 3rd. Role-play truth-teller low CHA as him always calling NPCs liars before they've gotten half a sentence out of their mouths. COMBAT ROLE: artillery; OOC ROLE: watchdog.
The Zen Archer is actually the best role-player of the group. He has this whole unified philosophy for the character where he believes (and often says) that the only true deception is self-deception, that every lie or act of deceit is obvious to anyone who is able to see it - but to do that they first must be able to break through the veil of their own lies and false beliefs. He will never, ever lie (which causes some problems for the group, though he is perfectly willing to stay silent as he has no problem with other people suffering for their own inability to be truthful to themselves and therefor see truth in others). All of this 'harmony' is where he derives his incredible skill as an archer from, but it makes him a real wet blanket at parties - he's actually quite comedic, because he's willing and apt to say what everyone else is thinking, a la Kramer from Seinfeld.
We had already decided to replace Toughness with Deadly Aim and leave the other feats as they are. Its good advice on getting the full use out of Snake Style feat as early as possible, but the truth is that early on between the melee types and Summoned creatures, he's hardly getting attacked at all anyway.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I guess I'm not as enamored of spending 2 feats to use up the monk's swift action for the round when they are in melee as an archer in lieu of getting a full extra attack the following round.
So it does seem to be sacrificing offense for situations they shouldn't look to be in. These are normally 'cool' traps to fall victim to. You have 2 melee PCs AND a summoner! The monk should be looking at deflect arrows before a melee defense.
I'm a little confused by this - Snake style works against melee attacks, melee touch attacks, ranged attacks and ranged touch attacks. Using it in no way prevents full attack actions.
We did decide to swap out Toughness for Deadly Aim though.
As far as 'Find/Remove Traps', that's what the eidolon is for...
Well I can see the 'Find' part.. and for non-reset traps a 1/day 'remove' option...
Ignoring picking up trap spotter, the ranger option allows one to pick up trapfinding on a full BAB PC, which is not unreasonable to do to have covered.
So even if the eidolon is spotting the traps, being able to handle them rather than endure them is a huge plus. Especially if your DM is being reasonable and not metagaming you.
You don't see how the Eidolon is able to 'handle' traps with ranks in Disable Device, taking it as a Class feat AND having the Skilled evoloution in it? These are his skills at level 6, including all applicable bonuses:
Skills:
Stealth = +22 [+3(Class skill) +3(Ranks) +8(Skilled Evolution) +4(Small) +4(Dexterity)]
Perception = +14 [+3(Class skill) +3(Ranks) +8(Skilled Evolution)]
Disable Device = +20 [+3(Class skill) +3(Ranks) +8(Skilled Evolution) +4(Dexterity) +2(Tools)]
Use Magic Device = +14 [+3(Class skill) +3(Ranks) +8(Skilled Evolution)]
Frankly, I don't see how a pure PC rogue would offer much better in the skills department - especially when you factor in Darksight and the ability to report back telepathically. FWIW, he is a small sized serpent type eidolon. He carries a bandoleer with masterwork thieve's tools, a tanglefoot bag and chalk or charcoal as well as a wand. We have found that his ability to Climb comes in useful, freeing me up from casting all but the rare Evolution Surge to give him winged flight. At the moment his two feats are Fleet x2 since his movement is only 20, but we've been talking about grabbing a couple of Skill Focus feats instead to raise Perception and UMD to +17...
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If you're going to maximize the fighter as a Whirlwind activist, go Polearm
Human fighter (Polearm Master)
Str: 19
Int: 13
Wis: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 7
Trait: Heirloom weapon (+2 tripping horsechopper)
Feats:
1) Combat Expertise, Dodge, Combat Reflexes
2) Mobility
3) Weapon focus: mancatcher
4) Spring, Whirlwind (lose focus)
5) Improved Trip
6) Greater Improved Trip.
At 6, with a +2 strength item and your polearm upgraded to +1 you'll be
+14 to hit for d10 + 11
+20 CMB on trip attempts (trip pretty much anything). +6 Str +1 Weapon +1 training +6 BAB +4 feats +2 weapon
Once they are tripped, you then get 3 AOOs (+4 on ground +1 polearm bonus) for +19 to hit.
Great battlefield control; really insane with Enlarge person. Lots of free trip-AOOs on those that close with you. And a relevant damage threat. And with polearm master, you threaten at 5', and whirlwind out 10'.
The missing cheese component is the Monk 1 / Vivisector 5 "potion master" who throws up his potions. The issue is that character sucks until he is 5, so may not be optimal.
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With his CHA score, he's going to have a pile of 'em too.Feats: 1-WF:Scimitar, 1-Shield Focus, 3-Extra LoH, 5-Selective Channeling. COMBAT ROLE: front-rank AC tank & emergency mass-healer; OOC ROLE: high-society face, "good cop".We're really tinkering around with the Paladin's feat selections right now, trying to decide between sticking with Oath of Vengeance or going another direction that will allow him to channel. He was designed as an 'economy of action' character, with swift heals and swift spells and to be as self-sufficient as possible, but that was in a larger group with a dedicated healer for the rest of the party. The ability to Channel actually has a greater appeal considering that summoned creatures will be able to benefit as well.
I don't think I'm ever pulling the Fighter away from this build. He'd rather have Lunging Whirlwind Attack and be able to make multiple attacks every roundA polearm grant you hits when it's not your turn. (Combat Reflexes + polearm is one of the most powerful melee combinations possible in home games of sort which typically feature larger combats. If that case, I'd advance the fighter's DEX to 14 to exploit CR further.)
One of the things we're looking into is a one-level dip for the Master Summoner once he hits 5th level - the player is actually seriously considering grabbing a level of Bard.Considering the pace of advancement, be bard at 1st level with Extra Performance, then multiclass summoner -- this lets him play both roles right away, and buff his critter and the other PCs with Inspire Courage.
We had already decided to replace Toughness with Deadly Aim
IMO that's an even worse choice.
If he were an urban "bowbarian" controlled-rage archer, maybe; but a low-level, no-bling Zen eating attack penalties? Yuck. The player will just stop using it.