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Villain is casting a summons, so it takes a full round. Hero has silence spell up and moves past Villain, not otherwise interacting with him. Does this momentary silence force Villain to make a concentration check on his spell?
Excellent question. I am currently playing an Oracle with Silence as one of his spells know and has a mount with a movement rate of 80. Gut instinct is that unless the spell is silent cast he loses it.
Curious to see what the rest of the world says.
The next step would be casting silence on a sling bullet or arrow and use it to automatically disrupt a spell caster. Not sure how I feel about that.
That is a great question... If I were GMing it, I'd say the spell just outright fails (if it has a verbal component). If you're in the middle of casting a spell with a verbal component and get covered in a blanket of silence your mouth is moving but ain't nothing coming out of it.
Now as for the sling bullet with silence, I'd say that you'd have to actually hit the caster with the bullet (we'll then assume that bullet is lodged somewhere in/on the caster and silence is following them for the duration). Seems like there are some things involved here that will require some serious GM fiat.
An arrow I would say is lodged until healing is applied (magic or mundane). A sling bullet would be nearby.
If you are just looking for a short term interruption why worry about hitting their AC? Target the square they are in. That is only like an AC 10 or 15. They can still move away from it, but it has at least interrupted whatever spell they are casting.
As is always the problem it can make it hard for your allies to cast spells too.
It's always a bad idea for an employee who's not a designer to walk into a rules question, but...
No one has talked about your caster, here, making a will save. If he makes his save, he continues casting as normal.
If he did not make his will save (and this would just be my ruling lacking rules backup), then I would rule that he is now deafened with respect to his spell and has to make the appropriate checks and take the penalties (20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components).
There may be something else in the magic chapter about what happens when you're suddenly silenced that I'm not aware of.
The general concensus regarding silence is that you don't get a save if the spell is cast on an unatended object and you happen to be in the spell's area of effect. This is supported by this thread, where that interpretation was mentioned, and where Jason participated in the discussion and did not correct this interpretation:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz0r8x?Spell-Silence#0
Granted, the thread is quite old, but I believe the spell's wording has'nt really changed since.
The spell fails. You have to be able to talk(emit sound) to cast the spell. In the OP's version the area affect version of silence is in play, and that one does not allow for a save.
When I use spells that take a full round action I try to hide in the back so nobody can do anything to interrupt them.
I agree with MendedWall, the spell would instantly fail once its verbal component got disrupted mid-casting. Very clever idea, and a good reason casters using 1 round cast time spells need to be cautious about doing so. :)
And yes, silence offers no save if you're just in the area and it wasn't directly cast on you. This is how it worked through all of 3E. It was great both to nerf casters (and Bards' music, till they got Amplify and Joyful Noise spells to counter it...) and for stealth. But...PF drastically nerfed the duration so now it has almost no use for stealth and is solely good for screwing over casters.
He doesnt't get a Will save. Only the creature or object that Silence was cast on gets a save, creatures which enter the radius later are automatically silenced.
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell).
I don't see any requirement that the silence has to be in effect for a full round or any such stuff. So I would be inclined to say that by RAW the spell should be spoiled.
He doesnt't get a Will save. Only the creature or object that Silence was cast on gets a save, creatures which enter the radius later are automatically silenced.
To both you and Fyb: can you please expand on that interpretation?
What I see is:
An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.
What I do not see is wording: "An unwilling targeted creature..."
EDIT: To my mind, saying that you don't get a saving throw against silence if you're not the explicit target is the same as saying you don't get a saving throw against fireball if you're not the explicit target.
EDIT 2:
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
I'm not an object...so I get a Will save as per the text: the text says that if I'm unwilling, I get a Will save to negate.
So, yeah, I'm totally not seeing why your caster would not get a saving throw.
The spell is not affecting you specifically that is why. It is creating an area of silence that you walked into or in this case, that came to you.
The benefit of the spell working this way is that if cast on a caster he is shutdown. He can't just leave the area. If you cast it on an object there is no save, but the caster can just walk away.
Chris has the right of it.
The spell has a save for things that don't want to be silenced, including people (described in the text, which indicates this is more than the normal "save vs spell" that most spells have) and their items. If a barbarian is silenced and he blows a whistle, that whistle gets an attended item will save to work inside the spell zone.
Just because a staffer wanders into a thread and does not explicitly correct interpretation does not mean the staff member implicitly agreed with all statements in the thread, past and future.
The spell is not affecting you specifically that is why. It is creating an area of silence that you walked into or in this case, that came to you.
The benefit of the spell working this way is that if cast on a caster he is shutdown. He can't just leave the area. If you cast it on an object there is no save, but the caster can just walk away.
At the risk of sounding combative: can you quote a rule to support that interpretation?
You voice does not leave the silenced area.
The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any.
If the spell is centered on you then you can get a save. If the spell is placed on an object then there is no save.
I'm fairly sure I've read by a comment by a designer stating that you get a will save in regards to silence whether or not you are the target which would follow precedence with numerous other spells. Silence is after all an illusion. It doesn't actually suppress any sound merely the perception of it and whenever you interact with an illusion you get a save to disregard it.
You voice does not leave the silenced area.
The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any.If the spell is centered on you then you can get a save. If the spell is placed on an object then there is no save.
I have specifically addressed that above. You are an unwilling creature within the effect of the spell. How do you not get a Will save?
I see we are highlighting different areas. My highlighted area assumes the creature is the emanation because it is cast on him. In that case he gets a save, and the spell fails. If the spell is cast on object the spell is now in effect. If you walk into the emanation you don't get a save to end the spell or ignore it.
The duration does not say "Duration 1 round/level (D) or until a save is made". It says "Duration 1 round/level (D)". The spell does say
All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area.
Are you saying the caster gets to end the spell or are you saying the intent of the spell is to allow you to project sound normally even if you are in the emanation of the spell.?
PS:I have never heard of anyone running the spell like this. I will FAQ it because I do see your point, every time this has come up in real life or online I have not seem your interpretation.
I'm fairly sure I've read by a comment by a designer stating that you get a will save in regards to silence whether or not you are the target which would follow precedence with numerous other spells. Silence is after all an illusion. It doesn't actually suppress any sound merely the perception of it and whenever you interact with an illusion you get a save to disregard it.
I am looking for the quote now. I will post again when I find it.
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Got it. An example from a game.
Helmholtz wrote:
Shouldn't the illusory wall in D14 in HoHR and the silence spell in the pit trap in D10 grant the PCs a Will Save?
The illusionary wall should have a save DC of 16 if interacted with. The silence spell on the other hand, in an area affect and not targetted on the PC. As such it does not give a save.
Hope that helps
Jason Bulmahn
HoHR Author
Managing Editor of Dragon
Definitely an excellent question.
Ok, let's say the spell is cast on you. We all agree you get a save in this case. If you make your save, the spell is negated.
To recap:
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
...
An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.
Just to be clear, my whole argument hinges on the fact that the second sentence in that quote does not specify that you have to be the target of the spell to get a save.
Now, let's say that the spell is cast on a stone at your feet. The stone is an object that is unattended. It does not get a save, so the spell activates. You are an unwilling creature within the effect of the spell. "An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell..." Not the effect, the whole spell. So, you get a Will save. If you make your save, the spell is negated.
Let's say the spell is cast on a stone that is then hurled into your square. You are still an unwilling creature. You get a save. If you make your save, the spell is negated.
That is my interpretation of RAW.
Now, as a house rule, I could totally see making your will save allowing you to speak normally while it silences everything around you. But, that would be a house rule. RAW says that if anything within the effect makes its save, the spell is negated.
Got it. An example from a game.
Helmholtz wrote:
Shouldn't the illusory wall in D14 in HoHR and the silence spell in the pit trap in D10 grant the PCs a Will Save?
The illusionary wall should have a save DC of 16 if interacted with. The silence spell on the other hand, in an area affect and not targetted on the PC. As such it does not give a save.
Hope that helps
Jason Bulmahn
HoHR Author
Managing Editor of Dragon
This quote is from 3.5 rules, not Pathfinder.
Hmm. I could have sworn I read one. Hmm. Oh well. Strange that it works in exemption to the standard illusion rules.
Edit: And there is Chris with the rebuttal. I didn't know that was 3.5 only. I may keep digging for that quote after all.
By analogy, spell resistance:
Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected.
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. (Emphasis added)
Silence does not effect creatures in the area; it affects sound, conversation, spells with verbal components, and the area.
You, objects in your possession, and magic objects that emit sound, when targeted by silence, get a saving throw and spell resistance to negate the spell. If you, your attended items, or your magic items that emit sound are not targeted by silence, you are not affected by silence- sound, conversation, spells with verbal components, and the area are the ONLY things that are directly affected.
I didn't know that was 3.5 only.
Again to be clear, I have no idea how it worked in 3.5, nor does it particularly matter to me. I just know that particular quote is a ruling from 3.5 and rules have changed since then. =)
Good points about spell resistance only working when the energy of the spell effects you.
Ok...this is really, really nitpicky and rules lawyery of me...I apologize in advance.
"spells with verbal components cannot be cast" - that sure looks like an effect on the caster to me. It's not "spells with verbal components cannot be cast without X penalty" or "you suffer from the effects of deafness when casting spells with verbal components". It's "they cannot be cast". That, to my reading, is an effect on you and allows your spell resistance to come into play.
It's not "You cannot cast spells with verbal components" or "you suffer penalties" or "you must make a check". Silence affects the spell, just like dispel magic would affect the spell.
I'm still mixed on "if I am in an area affected by silence during the casting of a spell with a verbal component, is it effected or not"- I don't see a rule describing at what moment a spell is cast (transitive verb).
This quote is from 3.5 rules, not Pathfinder.Got it. An example from a game.
Helmholtz wrote:
Shouldn't the illusory wall in D14 in HoHR and the silence spell in the pit trap in D10 grant the PCs a Will Save?
The illusionary wall should have a save DC of 16 if interacted with. The silence spell on the other hand, in an area affect and not targetted on the PC. As such it does not give a save.
Hope that helps
Jason Bulmahn
HoHR Author
Managing Editor of Dragon
It does not matter. The wording of the spell did not change, and therefore the meaning is the same.
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.
The only change is that the spell now last for rounds, and not minutes.
Sounds like one of those things that falls to the DM.
Personally, I'd take a little bit of both. No save for the caster, but give the caster a chance to complete the spell with appropriate checks.
It's not "You cannot cast spells with verbal components" or "you suffer penalties" or "you must make a check". Silence affects the spell, just like dispel magic would affect the spell.
I'm still mixed on "if I am in an area affected by silence during the casting of a spell with a verbal component, is it effected or not"- I don't see a rule describing at what moment a spell is cast (transitive verb).
Most spells are cast on your turn. With spells like summon monster that take a full round action you are casting the spell until the beginning of your next turn. If a silence interrupts your casting then the spell can't really be completed.
It is like the movies where evil cultist are chanting to summon some evil monster/demon, and the chant is interrupted.
Checking the SRD, gags and magical silence specifically interrupt spells with verbal components, with no defense against them. I now imagine someone gagging a spellcaster with epic concentration who refused to stop casting for being grappled...
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What I see is:
An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.What I do not see is wording: "An unwilling targeted creature..."
EDIT: To my mind, saying that you don't get a saving throw against silence if you're not the explicit target is the same as saying you don't get a saving throw against fireball if you're not the explicit target.
Ah, this is a problem though. The rules do not define an unwilling creature. They do define an unwilling creature that is a target.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
The distinction in willing or unwilling pertains to targets, not "creatures". The consistency of the phraseology simply wasn't caught in editing. Unwilling creature = unwilling target. You get the save if you're the target (assuming you're unwilling). If you're not the target, you're either standing in a silenced area, or you're standing outside a silenced area.
I'm not sure how you would go about calculating the exact odds, but it seems pretty likely that at least one of the four will make their save.
93.4% likely using the numbers that you gave.
Chris, your point relies on your removing the context of the line you quoted.
An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.
taken alone sounds like you might have a point, but when you restore the sentence immediately preceding it it becomes clear that the sentence refers to the scenario of a caster targeting the spell on a creature.
The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.
Silence is after all an illusion. It doesn't actually suppress any sound merely the perception of it and whenever you interact with an illusion you get a save to disregard it.
This is wrong on several counts. First, the spell text states that it actually does suppress sound. Second, if it did not suppress sound and merely prevented you hearing the sound, it would use different mechanics. For example, speaking verbal components when you cannot hear yourself merely causes a % chance of misspeaking the words and failing, while doing so in silence fails automatically. Third, creatures outside the area of effect would be able to hear those within if the sound did exist and the spell merely prevented those in the area from hearing it, while the spell states specifically that creatures outside the area don't hear those within.
Similarly, there is no reason a silence spell that simply tricked your brain into thinking the area was silent when it wasn't would protect you from, say, a destrachan's flesh-rending sonic blast. Silence specifically protects against all sonic attacks.
Finally, if the silence spell allowed a disbelief save as some other illusions do, the save line would read "Will disbelief." An example would be silent image. Silence does not allow this sort of save.
I'm going to come at this from a very semantic standpoint. All emphasis to follow is mine.
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance yes; see text or no (object)
DESCRIPTION
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and Spell Resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.
Taking the entire paragraph as a whole, which is, I believe, how spell language should be read, it seems as though this spell might be listed under the wrong school. Since the language itself says that "complete silence prevails in the affected area." This means that if silence is cast on on unattended object, that does not get a saving throw, a 20 ft. radius area around that object is incapable of producing sound, nor can any sound pass through it. Perhaps the spell should be under the transmutation school, because the caster is changing the nature of the space around the object or creature, seemingly making it so that the air particles no longer transfer sound waves at all.
The spell being centered on a creature, as I read it, would allow the creature a will save so that the area wouldn't follow it around. If the spell is just centered on an object the caster has the availability of moving out of the affected area. If, however, the caster is the "object" of the spell he/she would not be able to move outside the area until the spell ended. This is why they get the will save to negate entirely.
The last line about anyone "in an area of a silence spell" being immune to sonic effects etc., to me, makes it very clear that in the area of the spell sound does not work.
Wow. Lots of interesting discussion and I'd love an OFFICIAL ruling if we could get one. In the meantime, since I'm the OP, I thought I'd tell you how I handled it.
I reasoned that had the Hero with silence stopped in a location such that the silence still blanketed the Villain, or if he had moved slowly past, the summoning spell would have been ruined. However, the interruption was -brief-, and I believe that's key to the interpretation. I analogized it to anything else that might have caused a momentary interruption of the spellcasting process and allowed a Concentration check. The Villain was briefly forced to take a deep breath and continue his incantation, during which time he maintained his concentration on the ritual.
Most of the discussion above ignores the brevity of the interaction because the game rules aren't really set up to deal with that. I think that both basic arguments above are valid and could be the official answer, but both sort of assume a situation where the silence covers the villain and stops there. Sure, that would stop speech. But if I'm giving the Gettysburg Address and you cover my mouth for a second and then go away, I'll be able to finish the speech afterwards.
And look awesome in my stovepipe hat.
But a spell has to be delivered in its entirety. That is why I used the example of an evil cult's chant to summon a demon in literature messes them up if they can't complete it.
Silence is effectively stopping the casting of the spell since the verbal component has to be there.