you'll be really MAD. also this build may actually be viable to use all 6 mutagens and cognatogens.
Bard and Alchemist don't synergize very well at all, do they. Both are 3/4 BAB and partial spell progression, which means that any multiclass combo is going to be painfully underpowered. And their signature abilities don't match up very well -- the alchemists mutagens don't make him a better bard, the bard's buffs and enchantments don't help with bomb-throwing, and so forth.
It's kind of a pity, because thematically the two classes do have a lot in common. A charismatic madman, whose sheer force of personality brings him and others to the dangerous edge of unspeakable discovery? That's pretty much the original Dr. Frankenstein, for goodness' sake. Half the characters in Girl Genius could have a level of bard (with +4 Cha when they start Sparking). An Alchemist-Bard PC would be your classic wild-eyed, carpet-chewing advocate of Mad Science. The fools said my theories would never work! I'll show them! I'll SHOW THEM ALL!!
Ahem. The question then becomes, how to make this work in game terms? I'd like to try sketching out a sample build -- say, 10th level bard/alchemist, with at least 2 levels of each. 20 point build, since this guy will need decent stats all around. I don't think he can possibly be as good as a straight Bard 10 or Alc 10 in powergame terms, but can we come up with something that at least doesn't suck, and would be interesting to play? Anyone want to give it a try?
Doug M.
It's not really so bad, just difficult. Let's look at the strengths of this combo:
- Acceptable BAB though not great
- Lots of class features
- Lots of skills (6 or 4)
- Diverse set of spells or similar things
Great disadvantages are, as mentioned above, MAD, not so fantastic BAB, and features that stopped their progression.
So what could be done here? First you have to decide on the role here: Do you want to melee? Ranged combat? Are you more on the casting side? Debuffing? Buffing? Skill monkey?
It seems to me that the most viable approach here is to decide on one primary class in which you take more classes than the other and focus on your most relevant attributes intelligence and charisma. Additionally, dexterity would help you with ranged attacks and AC, so this would what I would push next. Also I suggest to take the eldritch heritage line (thus making bard the more likely choice but it's not mandatory) to boost some attributes or get some flavory abilities.
Then, considering your "mad crazy I WILL SHOW YOU scientist" kind of image, I recommend taking at least craft wonderous item and maximizing spellcraft and use magic device, possibly with skill focus feats.
Finally, extra bombs and extra performance are good feats to allow you to use your core abilities further. I would look at some archetypes that give you more generally usable abilities, such as vivisectionist (for sneak attack and Frankenstein) and sandman (dispelling and trapfinding).
If I find the time I'll be back with a build. I hope this gives some ideas though :-)
Hmm... Cognatogens, as Squawk said, could be quite useful for the bard aspects of the alchemist. I think to make this work, you'll have to pick an ability or two that's going to suffer. Help the character move away from the MAD essentially. I can think of three ideas off the top of my head for ways I would do it.
1st) If you build your bard to be more combat-oriented (hey, it can be done!) then Strength, Str Mutagens, and extracts of Bull's Strength can be helpful. Also a Vivisectionist alchemist can take advantage of bard spells that can cause personal invisibility, such as Vanish, sacrificing bombs for sneak attack, and helping the two classes mesh better. You'll also need less Dex focus that way, since you won't be throwing things much.
...Maybe a Half-orc alcemist/bard could fill this role. Racial weapon proficiency with greataxes & falchions provides a better weapon than either class could normally choose, human-like Ability score choice allows for higher Str without other ability scores suffering. More alchemist levels than bard would probably be taken. High Str is the priority, followed by enough Int for Bull's Strength extracts (at least 12, hopefully more since this is an alchemist-focused build) and enough Cha to cast Vanish, or maybe Invisibility. Most of the rest of the ability scores should be sent to Con, with some for Dex, and enough that Wis isn't a dump despite being the lowest.
2nd) Alternatively, you could pretty easily build with high Int, giving your alchemist good extracts and simultaneously taking advantage of the bard's many skill ranks. This alchemist/bard would be staying far away from combat, unlike my first idea.
I think this one would be a rather even split between alchemist levels for the sake of extracts, and bard levels for the sake of skill ranks. Alchemist would be the favoured class for extra skill ranks, or alternatively one could play a half elf (+2 Int) and count both as favoured classes. If not a half-elf, I'd make this one an elf. Int is obviously a priority for this one, and since it's a back of the crowd/noncombat type, Cha and Wis would probably be second and third, with both helping a majority of skills, and Cha also helping bards. Dex would allow for some accuracy with bombs, as well as a help on a few skills such as escape artist, disable device, sleight of hand, etc. If dips in other classes are allowed I might even throw in a rogue level (lots of skills, probably a few more class skills, trapfinding, all good stuff).
3rd) The Cha focused one. This one takes advantage of bardic abilities and spells more than alchemical ones, possibly using a cognatogen for even more enhanced bardness.
I'd probably build a halfling for this one, going into bard levels more than alchemist. Cha is obviously a focus, making this one a good "face of the party" type of character, and helping with bardic abilities, and Int would be second, helping with the alchemist abilities and bardic knowledge, as well as the skills (this one wouldn't have quite as much skill ability as my second idea, but it would still have a fair bit). I'd probably put focus on Dex third. I might also dip this one into Master Summoner probably for three levels, giving them a quadruped eidolon mount with extra legs (50ft movement helps keep the ranged fighter away from the battle) and the ability to summon things that'll not only get between the bard/alchemist/summoner and danger, but will also mean more allies benefiting from bardic performance. Plus summoner and bard are both Cha heavy and are probably likely to synergize with little effort.
It really comes down to what bard abilities you want because an alchemist with a small level dip into anything else is still freaking awesome.
vice versa a barb with a small level dip into alchemist could potentially get them a nice +4 alchem bonus to CHA which is nothing to sneeze at for a caster, or a +4 DEX to make them more survivable
however like most casters if your looking at a 50/50 split of bard and alch your going to be doing yourself a diservice.
So I would recommend looking through both bard and alchemist , work out what class abilities are a MUST HAVE, whichever must have requires the least amount of level to attain becomes the secondary class and all other levels go into the primary class.
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Just my 2 cents, but for a viable build you'll really need to be able to push something the two have in common that could benifit from both classes.
My thought would be a Vivesectionist Alchemist and Archeologist Bard, and eventually go with Arcane Trickster.
End result would be a Rogue esentially, with fewer class features, but 2 trees of "Magic" to pull from and Sneak attack to work with. While you could pull off Arcane Trickster as early as 5th lvl with a 3 Vivi/1 Bard split, I'd advise going at least 6 lvls bard, and possibly 1 more lvl of Vivisectionist.
Lvl 20 build would be
4 Vivesectionist Alchemist
6 Archeologist Bard
10 Arcane Trickster.
One of the big choices you'll have to make is your primary mode of combat. Ideally, this character would be better suited to ranged combat, using invisibility from either Bard spells or extracts to get into position and lob an alchemist fire at the target.
Once you manage your 10th caster level, probably around level 13 if you take the trait to boost your bard caster level, take the feat arcane blast, so you've got a nice reliable ranged touch attack. Mixed with your sneak attack you should have respectable damage potential. Alternatively you could load up on poisoned crossbow bolts. The primary advantage of this build is you'll only need about 12 int to pull it off, which shouldn't be too hard. You'll want to pump charisma enough to take advantage of some class features and extra spells per day, but it isn't too crucial. Dex is going to be your main focus, as you're goal is to essentially be the rogue for your party. Furthermore lvls 19 & 20 have some great abilities for this combo.
Arcane Trickster lvl 19 - Greater Invis as a free action a number of rounds equal to your arcane trickster level
Arcane Trickster lvl 20 - Surprise Spell. If your targets are flat footed, everyone in the 10ft area of sound burst has a no saving throw 1d8+7d6 sonic damage plus a save vs deafness. That's pretty good icing on the cake.
That said, this build will be difficult to work with until the later levels, and I know it's not the perfect 50/50 split, but its a build that mixes alchemist and bard and will eventually work wonderfully.
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Managed to get some sample build ready:
ALCHEMIST/BARD 62000 CR 9
Male Half-Elf Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 4 Bard (Archaeologist) 6
NN Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +18
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DEFENSE
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AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10. . (+4 Dex)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +13, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +2, Uncanny Dodge; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities, Poison Resistance +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +11/+6 (1d3/20/x2)
Special Attacks Bleeding Attack +2, Sneak Attack +2d6
Bard (Archaeologist) Spells Known (CL 8, +11 melee touch, +11 ranged touch):
2 (4/day) Alter Self (DC 14), Silence (DC 14), Glitterdust (DC 14), Mirror Image (DC 14)
1 (5/day) Cure Light Wounds (DC 13), Grease (DC 13), Feather Fall (DC 13), Solid Note
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 12), Read Magic (DC 12), Light, Detect Magic, Know Direction (DC 12)
Alchemist (Vivisectionist) Spells Known (CL 4, 7 melee touch, 11 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 21
Feats Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Brew Potion, Combat Expertise +/-2, Gang Up, Improved Whip Mastery, Skill Focus: Use Magic Device (Adaptability), Throw Anything, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Whip, Whip Mastery
Traits Magical Knack: Bard (Archaeologist), Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +10, Craft (Alchemy) +7, Disable Device +19, Disguise +9, Escape Artist +8, Heal +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (Engineering) +9, Knowledge (Geography) +9, Knowledge (History) +9, Knowledge (Local) +9, Knowledge (Nature) +10, Knowledge (Nobility) +9, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Perception +18, Perform (Oratory) +10, Perform (Percussion Instruments) +10, Spellcraft +15, Use Magic Device +21 Modifiers Alchemy +4
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome
SQ Archaeologist's Luck +2 (12 rounds/day) (Ex), Bardic Knowledge +3 (Ex), Clever Explorer +3 (take 10 & magic traps) (Ex), Cognatogen (DC 14) (Su), Elf Blood, Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex), Lore Master (1/day) (Ex), Mutagen (DC 14) (Su), Poison Use, Swift Alchemy (Ex)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Alchemy +4 (Su) +4 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Archaeologist's Luck +2 (12 rounds/day) (Ex) Gain Luck bonus to attack, damage, saves, and all skills.
Bardic Knowledge +3 (Ex) Add + 3 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bleeding Attack +2 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 2 bleed damage per round.
Clever Explorer +3 (take 10 & magic traps) (Ex) Half time to use disable device. Can always take 10 & disarm magic traps.
Cognatogen (DC 14) (Su) At 1st level, a mindchemist learns how to create a cognatogen, as per the cognatogen discovery.
This ability replaces the mutagen class ability (a mindchemist cannot create mutagens unless he selects mutagen* as a discovery).
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex) Apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Gang Up You are considered to be flanking your target if another ally is also adjacent to that target
Improved Whip Mastery Threaten with your whip and grasp Tiny objects
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) Take 10 on knowledge checks, and 1/day take 20 as a standard action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack: Bard (Archaeologist) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Mutagen (DC 14) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a Physical attribute, -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 natural armor for 10 minutes/level.
Poison Resistance +2 (Ex) +2 to save vs. Poison.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Sneak Attack +2d6 +2d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
Note: 62000 gp left (minus a bit for 2 level extracts)
I did not have the time to select items, you got about 62000 gp.
I also only chose a few extracts which seemed helpful, not necessarily the best ones. I would go for purchasing pretty much all of them after all you got the flexibility with the class.
This one is great at delivering sneak attacks and should be able to get away and out of most situations.
I think this way the classes complement each other well, e.g. select weapon finesse with a rogue talent, use whip this way with your dex, to combat maneuvers or sneak attack, solid note + whip = swinging fun etc. :-)
hm, lvl 2 vivisectionist/mindchemist, vestigal arm discovery (perhaps go parasitic twin)
the rest your usual bard, but you have 3 hands to play the fiddle!
Hi there. I'm a gestalt alias for a pbp, focused on being a super-knowledgeable smarty pants. It's a nice combo.