RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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From the Rite giveaway thread:
I will respond only this last time as I do not want to derail this important thread, but to answer your question...Biofeedback - DR 2/- for 1 min per level at first level.
For one combat, blowing your bonus PP reserve. Unless you spent a feat of course. Also for Psychic Warriors only.
Daze, Psionic - ability to daze an 8HD creature at first level.
Nope. Metacap: you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level
Mind Thrust (18 stat psion) - 4d10 damage with a DC of 17 at first level.
Metacap.
Entangling Ectoplasm - ranged touch (easiest in game), -2 attack, -4 dex, any spell cast is 15+DC concentration check for 5 rounds in any environment at first level. Unable to break once the person is hit with it.As a side note, Entangle from the druid's first level spell is an AoE - which can cause issues for friendlies, has a save or check to break free every round, and can only be used outside where there is a reasonable amount of vegetation.
Hmm, Range Long vs Range Close, one target vs a 40' radius spread... Reflex save vs ongoing effect vs ranged touch, Entangle renders the terrain difficult, slowing you even if you make the save.
Yes, EE is so much more powerful than Entangle.
So we have two powers that are OMG AWESOME when you ignore rules, one that is a first level power for psychic warriors, 2nd level for psions (We'll call this the hideous laughter of psionics) and one which may be situationally better than a spell, but can also be much worse.
Myth, busted.
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From the Rite giveaway thread:
I will respond only this last time as I do not want to derail this important thread, but to answer your question...Biofeedback - DR 2/- for 1 min per level at first level.
For one combat, blowing your bonus PP reserve. Unless you spent a feat of course. Also for Psychic Warriors only.
Daze, Psionic - ability to daze an 8HD creature at first level.Nope. Metacap: you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level
Mind Thrust (18 stat psion) - 4d10 damage with a DC of 17 at first level.
Metacap.
Entangling Ectoplasm - ranged touch (easiest in game), -2 attack, -4 dex, any spell cast is 15+DC concentration check for 5 rounds in any environment at first level. Unable to break once the person is hit with it.As a side note, Entangle from the druid's first level spell is an AoE - which can cause issues for friendlies, has a save or check to break free every round, and can only be used outside where there is a reasonable amount of vegetation.
Hmm, Range Long vs Range Close, one target vs a 40' radius spread... Reflex save vs ongoing effect vs ranged touch, Entangle renders the terrain difficult, slowing you even if you make the save.
Yes, EE is so much more powerful than Entangle.
So we have two powers that are OMG AWESOME when you ignore rules, one that is a first level power for psychic warriors, 2nd level for psions (We'll call this the hideous laughter of psionics) and one which may be situationally better than a spell, but can also be much worse.
Myth, busted.
Okay, 2d10 with a DC of 16 twice per day with Overchannel so in two rounds you can still dish that much damage. You could take Psionic Endowment to make that DC 17 for the first bulk of damage or you could take Psionic Talent and do 2d10 at the DC of 16 three times a day. Obviously you will need someone to heal you...
And up to 5HD twice per day on the Daze.
It is still broken, just not as insanely broke as it once appeared.
No myths busted.
I honestly am not going to scour that text to prove points to you. You obviously do not care to debate it, only to prove me wrong - which you have not.
Later folks. Enjoy your thread.
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Your examples are full of rules misunderstandings. For anyone interested:
Biofeedback - DR 2/- for 1 min per level at first level.
This is a 2nd level power for psions. Psychic warriors get it at first level, but they are expected to be primary meleers at medium BAB, and at first level know only one power and have one pp/day base. Biofeedback is nice for a meleer, but it's nowhere near great or a must have, let alone "broken."
Daze, Psionic - ability to daze an 8HD creature at first level.
(Renamed as telepathic lash) By RAW, a psionics user can only spend 1 pp at 1st level to augment a manifesting power. So you are only looking at a DC 15 (for an 18 Int psion) to a 5HD max critter -OR- a 4HD for 2 rounds for a power that still has to get through spell resistance, and a successful Will save completely negates all damage (many races get bonuses or immunities to resist mind-affecting effects). Again, nice when used selectively, but not broken.
Mind Thrust (18 stat psion) - 4d10 damage with a DC of 17 at first level.
Again by RAW, you are instead looking at only 2d10 or 11 hp average at DC 15, still have to worry about spell resistance, successful & Will/mind-affecting save completely negates. Nice when used selectively, but not broken.
Entangling Ectoplasm - ranged touch (easiest in game), -2 attack, -4 dex, any spell cast is 15+DC concentration check for 5 rounds in any environment at first level. Unable to break once the person is hit with it... As a side note, Entangle from the druid's first level spell is an AoE - which can cause issues for friendlies, has a save or check to break free every round, and can only be used outside where there is a reasonable amount of vegetation.
By RAW, one medium or smaller target only, a DC 15 to escape. Good but not great, and a druid's entangle hits multiple targets.
Let's move on please as I am no longer going to defend a position so adamantly defended in other posts :/ That is just 4 first level abilities. The book is broke.
If you play by RAW, it isn't broke - it's very balanced. But just like classic Vancian spellcasting, the GM and players have to know and understand all the rules.
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...Myth, busted.Okay, 2d10 with a DC of 16 twice per day with Overchannel so in two rounds you can still dish that much damage. You could take Psionic Endowment to make that DC 17 for the first bulk of damage or you could take Psionic Talent and do 2d10 at the DC of 16 three times a day. Obviously you will need someone to heal you...
And up to 5HD twice per day on the Daze.
It is still broken, just not as insanely broke as it once appeared.
No myths busted.
Again, here is the RAW:
...it is critical to remember that a manifester may not spend more power points on a power than his manifester level. This includes spending power points augmenting the power, using metapsionic feats, or effects that result in needing to pay an increased power point cost to manifest a power.
For example a 5th level manifester may only spend a total of 5 power points on any single power, while a 19th level may only spend a total of 19 power points on any single power.
Effects that allow a manifester to increase this effect, such as the Overchannel feat or a wilder’s wild surge, do so by increasing the manifester’s effective manifester level - they are still bound by this rule.
Again, myths busted.
I honestly am not going to scour that text to prove points to you. You obviously do not care to debate it, only to prove me wrong - which you have not.
Later folks. Enjoy your thread.
Look, no one wants to cram psionics down your throat. You don't have to like the system, and feel free to rule it out in your games. But you can't claim it's broken when you don't grok the RAW.
...Myth, busted.Okay, 2d10 with a DC of 16 twice per day with Overchannel so in two rounds you can still dish that much damage. You could take Psionic Endowment to make that DC 17 for the first bulk of damage or you could take Psionic Talent and do 2d10 at the DC of 16 three times a day. Obviously you will need someone to heal you...
And up to 5HD twice per day on the Daze.
It is still broken, just not as insanely broke as it once appeared.
No myths busted.
Again, here is the RAW:
[snip]
Um...that's not the RAW on Overchannel, which is what he's talking about now.
My two cents: Psionics is not broken. Certain psionic powers may be overpowered (or underpowered), but you could say the same thing about cleric or wizard spells.
Um...that's not the RAW on Overchannel, which is what he's talking about now.Again, here is the RAW:
[snip]
Yes, it is the RAW (scroll down to "Manifesting and Augmenting").
As an avid psionics buff, I must say that psionics RAW aren't broken. I Can tinker with them and make them broken in a completely legal fashion, (in both 3.5 and Pathfinder) but it takes a few levels first.
That being said, Overchannel is a powerful feat. It sounds silly to some people, but when played with you can do some amazing things with it....just not at first level. What I'm hearing this guy saying is that it's broken to be able to fire off two powers (which really are pretty good) per day, but only after overchannelling, which leaves the 1st level D6 HD Psion with an average of 9 damage to his own face. So unless he's got a 16 or higher Con score AND put his favored class point into hit points, he's sitting at either at 0 or -1 to fire off a pair of Mind Thrusts that might be negated if the saves are made. And after a few combats of this, you're gonna have one pissed off cleric on your hands.
As for the Daze on a 5HD critter? If you're so hyped up about being able to do this twice per day, all I have to say is this:
1st level Party vs. Orc Barbarian 5.
Orc: Rawr!
Psion: Overchannel Daze! *Zark!* Ow.
Orc: *Fail save* Durrrr...
Party: We got this, kill it!! *Lots of attacking!*
Next Round
Psion: Overchannel Daze! *Zark!* Ow. *Miraculously stays standing.*
Orc: *Makes save. Rage.* RAAAAAAAAWWWWWWRRRRR!!!!!!
Party: OH SHI-*Splutch!* *Starting with the Psion.*
Switch out the orc for really any other melee class, or 5HD monster if you like. Against a 4 char party of Psion/Fighter/Cleric/Rogue, the results will pretty much be the same. Will this 'Daze' power help you at first level? Yes. Will it help you against a 5HD monster? Only if you plan on following it up by running away very very quickly. Alternatively, the cleric, pissed off at all the healing he's had to blow just so the psion doesn't kill himself, could throw the psion in front of the monster as a distraction.
I hear they taste like smart chicken.
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I am a psionics fans myself, and everytime myths get shot down it always falls back on "well I just don't like it so I won't allow it anyway".
My response is this:
If you just don't care for then that is all you have to say. Don't go and try to knock it down so it looks bad to others. The same statement goes for ToB as well.
My hardcopy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook is boxed up (...somewhere), so I can't quote directly from it. But even according to Wizards' own old 3.5 SRD:
...Power Point Limit: Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.
...Augment: Many powers have variable effects based on the number of power points you spend when you manifest them. The more points spent, the more powerful the manifestation. How this extra expenditure affects a power is specific to the power. Some augmentations allow you to increase the number of damage dice, while others extend a power’s duration or modify a power in unique ways. Each power that can be augmented includes an entry giving how many power points it costs to augment and the effects of doing so. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level.
(emphasis mine) The "for any reason" part seemed clear to me to always include points from Overchanneling (or other class abilities and feats) too.
Keep in mind you're discussing rules with someone who believes you can never enchant items made with the fabricate spell.
Is this another one of those "rules" people who doesn't really know the rules?
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Yes, it is the RAW (scroll down to "Manifesting and Augmenting").Um...that's not the RAW on Overchannel, which is what he's talking about now.Again, here is the RAW:
[snip]
Bwuh? I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but here's the text of Overchannel.
Overchannel [Psionic]
You burn your life force to strengthen your powers.Benefit
While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage. At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective manifester level by two, but you take 3d8 points of damage. At 15th level, you can increase your effective manifester level by three, but you take 5d8 points of damage.The effective increase in manifester level increases the number of power points you can expend on a single power manifestation, as well as increasing all manifester level-dependent effects, such as range, duration, and overcoming power resistance.
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Yes, it is the RAW (scroll down to "Manifesting and Augmenting").Um...that's not the RAW on Overchannel, which is what he's talking about now.Again, here is the RAW:
[snip]Bwuh? I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but here's the text of Overchannel <snipped>.
OK, my brief explanation wasn't completely clear the first time(s), so hopefully this will be clearer:
A 1st level psion with an Int 18 (or even Int 20 with a +2 racial bonus) has 2 base pp + 2 bonus pp. The Psionic Talent grants 2 extra pp/day (now 6 total); the Overchannel feat increases his effective manifester level to 2nd when it's used, but he does not receive any bonus pp/day for this raise in manifester level.
- Manifesting mind thrust, the overchanneling psion can spend up to 2 extra points to augment the effect by an extra 2d10 to 3d10 total; doing so also increases the DC to 16 for an 18 Int psion or DC to 17 for a 20 Int psion.
- Manifesting daze/telempathic lash, the overchanneling psion can spend up to 2 extra points to augment the effect to effect a max 6HD creature for 1 round -OR- a 5HD creature for 2 rounds or a 4HD creature for 3 rounds; doing so also increases the DC to 16 for an 18 Int psion or DC to 17 for a 20 Int psion.
Here is her example:
Okay, 2d10 with a DC of 16 twice per day with Overchannel so in two rounds you can still dish that much damage. You could take Psionic Endowment to make that DC 17 for the first bulk of damage or you could take Psionic Talent and do 2d10 at the DC of 16 three times a day. Obviously you will need someone to heal you...
And up to 5HD twice per day on the Daze.
(emphasis mine) The psion can manifest powers with augments based on his higher manifester level, but after burning all 6 of his pp on augmented/overchanneled mind thrusts, he will have run out of pp before he can manifest either of the daze/telempathic lash powers.
...
(And this part isn't directed at you, Hogarth) And that disregards that the psion now needs to have a party member to burn a cure light wounds spell/potion/wand charges or channeled healing to keep him alive.
Whereas a 1st level sorcerer with an 18 or 20 Int, automatically gets a base DC 15 or DC 16, 4 or 5 1st level spell slots, the damage for those spells scales automatically with additional levels, he still has two free feat slots, he gets better spells to choose from, and he takes no hit point loss from simply casting.
If the psion is "broken," what does that make the sorcerer?
OK, my brief explanation wasn't completely clear the first time(s), so hopefully this will be clearer:
A 1st level psion with an Int 18 (or even Int 20 with a +2 racial bonus) has 2 base pp + 2 bonus pp. The Psionic Talent grants 2 extra pp/day (now 6 total); the Overchannel feat increases his effective manifester level to 2nd when it's used, but he does not receive any bonus pp/day for this raise in manifester level.
Oh. I agree that the hypothetical psion could use three overchanneled mind thrust OR three overchanneled psionic dazes (not AND).
Actually, this isn't entirely correct. The total power point expenditure is limited by manifester level, not the augment. The most a mind thrust can do at 1st level is 2d10. Same with all other powers.
Good catching my brain fart. :) Excuse me for one second...
It looks like I went back and added in overchanneling a second time. {sigh} That'll teach me to attempt simple addition after a crappy day and a headache.
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You can't. Unless you can come up with some mechanic that gives you masterwork items with that spell.
Craft. Word of God.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ah and Overchannel...
1d8 points of damage, you have 4-8 points and the higher end assumes an equally high constitution.
Level 1 psion goes to overchannel...
Burns between all and 1/3rd of your pp reserve. Make a concerntration check DC = to 11+1d8, then if you do, get that power off.
Assuming you're not unconscious... try it again, I dare you.
Mind Thrust 2d10, save negates, mind affecting.
Myths still busted.
(Warning! Argument from Authority in progress) I've worked with 3.x psionics since the original book came out, and was part of the Mind's Eye. Outside of Dreamscarred or my fellow Mind's Eye patrons, I'm going to claim to be an expert on the field. So don't make me go Hyneman on you.
Are people really complaining about mind thrust? Mind thrust?
The 1d10/lv mind, affecting, save negates thing? And at level 1 to boot?
Priceless.
I played a few manifesters (in 3e times), and I never bothered with that power. It doesn't work on undead (and other critters) and it's all or nothing. If I want all or nothing stuff, I'll go play a fighter.
And 2d10 with a save that negates is nothing, especially if you can only do it a couple of times per day.
2d10 is 1-20 points of damage, average 11.
A level 1 fighter with, say, strength 16 (since we're talking 3e where 18s were not as common), using power attack and, say, a greatsword has 2d6+6 8-18, average 13. And they can do that all time, without the fear of bleeding out for using his powers. He just rolls an attack roll. Next round, he does it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again...
That "overpowered" psion does it two or three times, needs healing in between (so two characters are needed for this stunt), and then he's done. Or dead.
And that's overpowered? I guess too many people designing the game thought the same. That's why it sucked so hard to be a warrior in 3e.
I've never played a psion, but I have seen many in-game. I have one friend who plays psions more than any other class type.
From an outside perspective, they look pretty freakin powerful. But, what I've noticed, is they only really dominate the game, when the DM gets lazy and only does the 1 encounter/day style. If the party is only going to face one thing in the span of time it takes to restore power points, then yeah, that psion can nova-blast it to oblivion with no worries, and look like a total badass in the process.
But, throw out another encounter, and another, and that psion's style can get wore out pretty quick.
I can't recall which page in the DMG, but the game is built around multiple encounters per day. This seems pretty unrealistic when trying to tell a story or adventure, but the mechanics of regaining lost spells, power points, etc, all hinges on a daily limit.
So basically, put more than one target in front of a psion, and it balances itself out just fine. If you only plan one encounter for the day, you're basically giving the psion free reign to spend every single power point in one battle. Of course it's going to go nuts and nuke everything in sight.
Yeah, at one or two CR equivalent encounters a day, a psion or psywar does fine, and can raise the damage & DC of their powers to deliver a few powerful attacks aka "nova". But a sorcerer with strong spell selection or a properly-prepared wizard can 19 out of 20 times always out-"nova" a psion/psywar in that same situation.
Raise the number of CR equivalent encounters to three or more per day, and/or bump one up to boss level, and the psion guys that "nova" burn through their pp/day pretty quick. Which means when it counts, they are often left plinking away with their crossbow or sword using their medium BAB (psywar) or low BAB (psion)... which is hardly effective or satisfying for the player. An equivalent wizard/sorcerer usually has enough firepower (auto-scaling in level) to control the battlefield AND SoS/SoD the badguys while the martials do their job. And as much as I like the revised Dreamscarred psywars, the Paizo magus is still more versatile and more powerful.
I like psion characters for their flavor and the mechanics that allow them to deliver effects precisely. But for power and maximum damage output? Give me a sorceror/wizard or magus (or some of the bard archetypes)... easy choice.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yeah, at one or two CR equivalent encounters a day, a psion or psywar does fine, and can raise the damage & DC of their powers to deliver a few powerful attacks aka "nova". But a sorcerer with strong spell selection or a properly-prepared wizard can 19 out of 20 times always out-"nova" a psion/psywar in that same situation.
Raise the number of CR equivalent encounters to three or more per day, and/or bump one up to boss level, and the psion guys that "nova" burn through their pp/day pretty quick. Which means when it counts, they are often left plinking away with their crossbow or sword using their medium BAB (psywar) or low BAB (psion)... which is hardly effective or satisfying for the player. An equivalent wizard/sorcerer usually has enough firepower (auto-scaling in level) to control the battlefield AND SoS/SoD the badguys while the martials do their job. And as much as I like the revised Dreamscarred psywars, the Paizo magus is still more versatile and more powerful.
I like psion characters for their flavor and the mechanics that allow them to deliver effects precisely. But for power and maximum damage output? Give me a sorceror/wizard or magus (or some of the bard archetypes)... easy choice.
In defense of the 3.x Psychic Warrior, the developers admitted that balancing the 'gish' type is an evolution (Psychic Warrior and Hexblade took the hits that lead to the duskblade).
The other thing to remember (especially about the psychic warrior) is you need one power point in your reserve to gain/maintain psionic focus. At low levels, that 2d6 from psychic weapon once a combat is nice.