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With the vastness of Avistan and Garund we have a LOT going on on the macro and micro levels. There's the Cheliax/Andoran conflict, the cold war between Taldor and Qadira, the possibility of true peace between Nex and Geb, Razmiran proselytizers, and so much more. While all of these are fantastic material for adventure, the world is static. The setting isn't actually changing much (outside of expansion into Tian Xia and elsewhere). Cheliax and Andoran are still rivals, Razmiran priests are still mucking about, the Hordes of Belkenzen remain in their mountains, etc.
My question is, are there any plans to change this? Will Andoran start a crusade against Cheliax? Will the Worldwound expand further? Will Korvosa and Magnimar start an arms race? Will the Sargavan natives expel their oppressors? Granted, the Golarion setting has only been around for so long, but I think it would be interesting to have a mega-event that changes things at some point.
What kind of mega-events would be cool to see? Would you be alright if something like this happened?
With the vastness of Avistan and Garund we have a LOT going on on the macro and micro levels. There's the Cheliax/Andoran conflict, the cold war between Taldor and Qadira, the possibility of true peace between Nex and Geb, Razmiran proselytizers, and so much more. While all of these are fantastic material for adventure, the world is static. The setting isn't actually changing much (outside of expansion into Tian Xia and elsewhere). Cheliax and Andoran are still rivals, Razmiran priests are still mucking about, the Hordes of Belkenzen remain in their mountains, etc.
My question is, are there any plans to change this? Will Andoran start a crusade against Cheliax? Will the Worldwound expand further? Will Korvosa and Magnimar start an arms race? Will the Sargavan natives expel their oppressors? Granted, the Golarion setting has only been around for so long, but I think it would be interesting to have a mega-event that changes things at some point.
What kind of mega-events would be cool to see? Would you be alright if something like this happened?
To be honest, Paizo might do well by avoiding big metaplotty events for Golarion altogether. Trying to keep up with the big earthshattering disaster of the month kind of wrecked the Forgotten Realms, imho.
Keeping the setting background and possibility rich while not enforcing continuity and regular canon updates on the fans might be the way to go.
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To be honest, Paizo might do well by avoiding big metaplotty events for Golarion altogether.
That's definitely part of it. Nearly everyone playing in Golarion bought a big expensive campaign setting book and the last thing we want to do is say "Oh that's all wrong now" for whole sections or, worse, the whole thing. That said, if you look at the differences between the first incarnation of the campaign setting and the second, the timeline has advanced. Although we generally assume with the Adventure Paths that none of the APs have happened - allowing GMs to choose how the world has moved from the campaign setting text - we do have some plots coming down the line that have different assumptions.
By and large, though, we want GMs to make the calls about how and when the world's big changes take place. We don't want to put out some supplement that says "Oh yeah, that home campaign you've been running, we smashed its setting. Hope you weren't enjoying it." However, we do plan to advance the timeline again in the future, but that's the sort of thing that will be a big deal - not something that just sneaks by.
Creative Director
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And to build on something Wes mentioned... our Adventure Path line IS where we present big "macro events" for the world of Golarion. With a few exceptions, we don't assume the events in any AP take place in any particular order, but once they DO occur, some pretty significant changes to the Inner Sea region (and soon, to Tian Xia) will happen. ESPECIALLY if the PCs screw up and let the bad guys win.
And to build on something Wes mentioned... our Adventure Path line IS where we present big "macro events" for the world of Golarion. With a few exceptions, we don't assume the events in any AP take place in any particular order, but once they DO occur, some pretty significant changes to the Inner Sea region (and soon, to Tian Xia) will happen. ESPECIALLY if the PCs screw up and let the bad guys win.
That's really cool. I'd like to see *some* canonisation of events. Perhaps not on the scale of Greyhawk Wars, for instance, but there it was assumed that certain of the modules had happened, demon lords freed etc. And, to be honest, I doubt that ever stopped anyone giving Against the Giants another run through. But I can see how you'd have to be careful you didn't kill sales of a particular AP stone dead - 'hey, that's finished now, the bad guys won.' But yeah, it's that 'ESPECIALLY' part that intrigues me; darkness creeping forward, good struggling, is always more fertile ground for adventure than everything coming up roses.
Actually, I think what I would like to see - being just as interested in relationships and character development - would be how the npcs of Golarion change and adapt to altered circumstances, as much as the political scope provided by completed adventures.
Ok, that all makes sense, especially the AP's being the mega-events. The business end of things with the Inner Sea World Guide make sense too. Only thing I have to say is
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Creative Director
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Jade Regent was something of an experiment—a sequel to previous APs to a certain extent, but not significantly so. Reaction has been VERY positive, so we're trying something next year with the Shattered Star AP which is a FULL ON sequel to Rise of the Runelords, but also to a certain extent to Curse of the Crimson Throne and a little bit even to Second Darkness.
So in general, the assumption when dealing with sequels is that the prequel happened but was resolved in a way that didn't tear gaping wounds across terrain and continuity alike?
As a veteran of the Metaplot Years (aka the Age of TORG and WoD), I am completely okay with that. :)
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So in general, the assumption when dealing with sequels is that the prequel happened but was resolved in a way that didn't tear gaping wounds across terrain and continuity alike?
As a veteran of the Metaplot Years (aka the Age of TORG and WoD), I am completely okay with that. :)
The assumption in dealing with sequels is that the previous adventurers in your game who played the original completed that original "correctly" and did not lose.
Would you be alright if something like this happened?
Absolutely not. These types of things are entirely under the purview of the DM, AFAIC, and should never appear in print. I've never been a fan of invalidated products that do nothing more than get in the way as opposed to helping.
The assumption in dealing with sequels is that the previous adventurers in your game who played the original completed that original "correctly" and did not lose.
Aw. So we will never get a crazy, post apocalyptic AP where Liches, Runelords, and other assorted badies have conquered the world?
There go my hopes of The Road Warrior: Varisia.
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I remember reading David Edding's Belgariad as a teen and loving the books - they have a very D&D feel with niche classes and archetypes - but one thing that I didn't like was that the world never seemed to change, everything was too long-standing. Countries had been the same for a thousand years and borders hadn't shifted. There was a civil war that had been ongoing for hundreds of years without resolution. And how does technology, even in a magical world (a pretty low-magic magical world), not progress beyond the dark ages in a thousand years? But it was a minor detail so I enjoyed all 5 books, then the next 5, and then the 3 follow-up. I just chalked it up to it being an artifact of the fantasy genre. But in the last book I read, Polgara I think, he actually acknowledged this problem and offered an explanation. Whether it had been nagging him for years too or it was intentional, I don't know, but he explained it. See, there had been this mega-event in the history of the world about a thousand years ago and history had pretty much stopped. Not little events, things still happened, but no more forward progress. It was as if the whole world were stuck in kind of a Groundhog Day. Wars would be fought, but to no real resolution. People would try to change the world, but to no avail. Someone might even invent something new, but it just wouldn't catch on. The world was stuck, until of course a protagonist put things right. Anyway, a little off topic, but I always think of that when I see an RPG world where things seem too static. Maybe something has happened and the world is stuck.
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With the vastness of Avistan and Garund we have a LOT going on on the macro and micro levels. There's the Cheliax/Andoran conflict, the cold war between Taldor and Qadira, the possibility of true peace between Nex and Geb, Razmiran proselytizers, and so much more. While all of these are fantastic material for adventure, the world is static. The setting isn't actually changing much (outside of expansion into Tian Xia and elsewhere). Cheliax and Andoran are still rivals, Razmiran priests are still mucking about, the Hordes of Belkenzen remain in their mountains, etc.
Many of the nations of the Inner Sea region have a ton of potential for this, depending on where an individual GM wants to go with it (although I agree with the above statements about not wanting the canonical setting itself to get shaken up every couple of years!).
Event option 1,
'Needs must, when the devil drives' or 'Unlikely bedfellows';
The Worldwound is currently on 'slow boil,' but could explode at any moment, and if Mendev falls, a much more intriguing set of battle-lines, with Ustalav, Numeria, Belkzen and the Realms of the Mammoth Lords could take place. (The demons don't expand north, onto the Crown of the World, 'cause of hard-learned experience of A) how little there is to plunder and devour there and B) how really unfriendly Shoggoth are to those who attempt to plunder their frozen abandoned haunts...)
Sections of Ustalav could fall, only to have someone take advantage of the chaos to free Tar-Baphon (or perhaps one of his powerful servants, the 'Kas' to his 'Vecna'), and create a eternal war between undead hordes and demonic minions, with the surviving mortal population of Ustalav caught in the middle, viewed as tasty snacks and squishy playthings by one side, and a fresh supply of soon-to-be-undead recruits by the other.
In Belkzen, the orcs no more want to be devoured by rampaging demons than anyone else, and a surge of Gorumite-led orcish mercenary groups could attempt to hold the line, and create their own versions of 'warding stones' to protect their own holdings. Lacking the special advantages of some of the other lands, Belkzen might be almost overrun in short order, and troops from Lastwall (bolstered by fresh recruits from Nirmathas, Molthune, the Five Kingdoms, etc.) might ride into the heart of Belkzen, right past retreating and regrouping orcish encampments and refugee trains, to engage the approaching demons, to the shock and confusion of orc and crusader alike, as they buy the orcs time to regroup (and get their non-combatants to safety, behind *human* lines!). Tensions will be strained by orc tribes converting en masse to demon-worship, revering the strength of their conquerors, and wanting to be 'on the winning side.' On the front lines, troops of dwarves, humans and orcs will fight demonic invaders, with orcs of their own, and the occasional Five Kingdoms axe or Nirmathan arrow may find itself lodged in the wrong orcish skull, in a sort of 'friendly fire' accident...
In Numeria, the Black Sovereign and his 'techno-mages' won't give up Starmount without a fight, and big gun-equipped mecha-scorpions won't be the only surprise they are ready to bring to bear on the encroaching demon hordes. Mendevian knights forced to retreat into Numeria will be grudgingly tolerated, and wonder behind their hastily-constructed fallback redoubts, what sort of horrible alliance they have made, as drug-addicted techno-sorcerers and soulless mechanical horrors from beyond the stars fight the demons at their side.
The Realm of the Mammoth Lords seems likely to fare worse, lacking the more supernatural defenses available to Numeria, and, in the worst case, to Ustalav. Still, there's something to be said for the damage a herd of mammoths, or even a stampede of dinosaurs, could inflict, even to demons! It's also possible that agents of Baba Yaga could be drawn into the fray, intending to stop the demonic incursion before it reaches Irrisen (and, in the process, taking the Mammoth Lords lands for themselves). The Mammoth Lords may have no love for the Winter Witches (and vice-versa), but when demons are pouring over their eastern flank, better to allow winter wolf and ice troll slaves of the witches to engage them than to risk the extinction of their local mega-fauna on suicide charges.
Druma would contribute no troops, but every Drumite craftsmage would be set to pumping out arrows of demon slaying by the thousands, and they would be made available at precisely controlled prices by the Kalistocracy (single-handedly preventing wartime price-gouging, as they seize utter control of certain markets, out of 'enlightened self-interest').
Cheliax, while offering token support to the actions in Numeria and Belkzen (through Molthune, in the latter case), would buckle down and ruthlessly secure their own country and borders, erecting wardstones of their own, rumored to exist more to keep Chelish citizens in, than outside forces out.
There was gonna be an 'Option 2; Azlant Rising' and 'Option 3; The Gebbite Gambit,' but Option 1 kind of ran long...
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I love Meta plot, but I love that Golarion is having the story told through AP's.
My ultimate Campaign arc is the Fall of the House of Thrune. Crimson Throne's conclusion and my adventures after have made the PC ruler, a member of House Jaggare from Cheliax, King of Korvosa. The PC's also expanded Korvosa to include the holdings. This is Jaggare's first step in overthrowing Thrune.
I am working on Carrion Crown now, and I have a Chelaxian PC in it now to add to this meta plot (But I have nto figured out how to work it in yet).
Once a few are done, I plan on tailoring a 20+ adventure for my players using their favorite characters from the adventure paths to overthrow House Thrune. I envision this to be each player taking their Chelaxian PC from each adventure path, but one never knows.
I love how Paizo manages their novel line to not interfere with the 'world' of Golarion.
I can very well imagine if this world was owned by WOTC having a novel causing the WORLD WOUND to explode as was mentioned in a previous post.
I think the 'almost static' approach Paizo are taking is my preference. I generally assume that APs occur in the order of release, so the approach they're taking with the APs suits me too (and the 'assume the good guys won' seems like it has to be easier to tweak than the other way around).
I doubt I'd stop subscribing if they shifted, but it is what stopped me from purchasing the forgotten realms products once it became too much for me. I liked the grey box and the FR1, FR2, expansions. Once the novels and future supplements starting changing things, I didnt get upset particularly, I just stopped caring.
I'd have no objection to a mega-event every few years or so, and at the very least the APs should be canon. The "good ends" don't seem to change much on a macro-scale anyway.
One thing Paizo should avoid like the plague are mega-events that negate an AP. One of the many annoying things about the Forgotten Realms reboot is that the apocolypse was caused by the very thing players had prevented in the last 3.5 FR campaign WotC published. :-(
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I'd have no objection to a mega-event every few years or so, and at the very least the APs should be canon. The "good ends" don't seem to change much on a macro-scale anyway.
That's something we'll be tinkering with at the end of
Keeping the Mega-Events out of Golarion is a Good Thing in my opinion. That was something I did not like with Forgotten Realms and the meta-plot for the original White Wolf games. You knew the end was coming, just not when, and you also knew that they would eventually publish official material that would bring the old World of Darkness meta-plot to it's conclusion, and they did.
On the other hand, it would be neat to see published an alternate history or alternate version of the Inner Sea setting where the "good guys" lost.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Changes in the meta-world can be done, but not without a lot of effort.
Look at the Scarred Lands for example.
The first (only?) trilogy they did ended with the revival of a dead god. Bascially thowing the entire game world into little bitty pieces.
It wasn't really touched on until the Fallen and Forsaken, which dealt with the elves and (Charduni) Dwarves. There they did (I thought) a good job of integrating the resurrection of Janderos with the setting. It explained how his return (and ability to cure the Forsaken Elves) would affect the world, but also left it in the player's hands on if they wanted to play a still forsaken or a cured elf.
Of course, that was one RSE, not several.
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That's something we'll be tinkering with at the end of ** spoiler omitted **
See, that's cool, because
If, for example, a meta-plot involved Cheliax being retaken by worshipers of Iomedae and the forces of Andoran, that would invalidate practically everything that's been written about Cheliax to date. Which is much less cool.
If, for example, a meta-plot involved Cheliax being retaken by worshipers of Iomedae and the forces of Andoran, that would invalidate practically everything that's been written about Cheliax to date. Which is much less cool.
Right! And I want my PC's to overthrow House Thrune THEMSELVES!
I like my own metaplot of ultimately liberating Cheliax from the hold of Devils.
There was gonna be an 'Option 2; Azlant Rising' and 'Option 3; The Gebbite Gambit,' but Option 1 kind of ran long...
Seems like a good reason for a second and third post.. :-)
If, for example, a meta-plot involved Cheliax being retaken by worshipers of Iomedae and the forces of Andoran, that would invalidate practically everything that's been written about Cheliax to date. Which is much less cool.
Right! And I want my PC's to overthrow House Thrune THEMSELVES!
I like my own metaplot of ultimately liberating Cheliax from the hold of Devils.
NOTE: I would not be opposed to a future AP doing it. It would save me ALOT of work! ;)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually, one RSE that could be done AP style with little reprecussions (in the short term) would be the death of the ruler of Taldor.*
Even if the event puts Princess Eutropia on the throne, it's not going to result in immediate changes. She's fighting an uphill battle against a lot of inertia.
*
Anyone remember the old What IF comic that Marvel put out?
I'd love to see something like this for Golarion, jammed with loosely sketched campaign ideas...
What if the players to stop the Rise of the Runelords? What if Andoran goes to war vs. Cheliax? What if the Azlanti return in force?
With a note for the sticklers, **not official canon** of course.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Anyone remember the old What IF comic that Marvel put out?
I'd love to see something like this for Golarion, jammed with loosely sketched campaign ideas...
What if the players to stop the Rise of the Runelords? What if Andoran goes to war vs. Cheliax? What if the Azlanti return in force?
With a note for the sticklers, **not official canon** of course.
Time of the Twins did this for Dragonlance. With the interesting caveat that some of the alternate timelines were *better* than the setting.