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It is pathfinder society specific as i intend to use this character for play, hopefully at cons, as such i need PFS answers to these questions instead of the standard "ask your GM"
PS. I have no GM as of yet
What he means is that there is no deviation from the Core rules on these items and as such the 'PFS answer' is the Core Rules answer. Except that Improved Natural Attack is explicitly disallowed in Chapter 13 of the Guide to Organized Play.
I haven't had much experience with druids or the areas you are asking about to really offer much in the way of answers except that looking around in the Core Rule book it seems that Monks are proficient with both javelin and shortspear thus the answer to that question would be no.
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looking over the pathfinder society rules and stuff again i can't find any mention of it outlawing improved natural weapon, as natural weapon is part of the core feats and the only core rule feats out lawed are
i'm using using version 3.02 updated on 10-7-10 which i downloaded last night, unless i somehow downloaded the wrong version i can not find head nor tails of it stating natural improved weapons are unallowed.
I'm not aware of any 'Core' feat called Improved Natural Weapon. I believe you are referring to Improved Natural Attack yes? If not, please provide correct citation. This is a Monster Feat and expressly not allowed in Chapter 13 of the Guide on page 34 under the heading for Pathfinder RPG Bestiary.
Feats: none of the feats
are legal for play
however main question was weather they are applicable to humans, namely humans with bestial weapons. (claws, bites, etc etc)
Still going with a no on this one. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and in no way official or binding. Sorry.
Mark:
Wanting to get in touch with you via e-mail if possible.
- M. Shel
Gonna give a go at answering your questions.
1..PENDING ANSWER Wildshape: I've read in various places on the forums that supposably shamens dont gain the ability to cast wildshape till they are lvl6. However by the wording on d20pfsrd.com it seems you do get wildshape, however at lvl 6 it only functions as lvl 4 wildshape unless with the chosen creature (wolf) where it then acts as a lvl 8 wildshape. I'd like to know PFS ruling on this.
I'm guessing this was hopeful thinking, but you hit the nail on the head. Your wild shape is 2 level delayed, so you won't get it until level 6. However, when you do get wild shape it will function as normal (level 4) and wolf (level 8). Presumably this means you have 2 additional uses per day that can only be used on wolf shapes, but no clear ruling has ever been made on this to my knowledge. There's tons of debate, so feel free to do a quick search on these very forums.
2.PENDING ANSWER Animal Companion Questions
I. Druid trick: Is the bonus trick provided by this available to teach them combat training/riding all together? or can only be used to teach individual tricks at a time?
II.Feats: If they become intelligent (3 int) do they retain any previously taught tricks none the less?
III. Languages: I understand that not having any intelligence means it can't speak etc etc, however its stated that Druids can Know sylvan, the language of wild animals, do wolfs understand that? and better yet can i understand the wolf if i take sylvan?
I. If you're asking if they can learn multiple tricks at once (beyond the capacity at which they gained them), then no. Individual tricks must be learned as you acquire "slots" for them.
II. They don't need them, honestly. Creatures of INT 3+ can understand language.III. Sylvan isn't specifically the language of wild animals. It's the language of the woods- Fey are typical speakers of Sylvan. Wolves have no language, being unable to speak due to biology and intelligence, so you can't take ranks in Linguistics (Wolf). There are only three ways to communicate with a wolf: 1) Wild Empathy, which is very limited. 2) Speak with Animals, which is limited to the intelligence of the wolf. 3) Get it an intelligence score of 3+. It won't be able to talk to you (though the previous 2 may help), but it can understand you.
3.PENDING ANSWER Monster/Animal Feats and natural weapons:
I: Can druids use them? I understand their mainly only meant for wild animals etc etc, However as i intend to use a natural weapons (claws) could such things as inproved natural weapon be taken as feats?
II: If so do the bonuses they convey while not wildshaped carry over to my wildshape form?
I. Druids can use them, sure, but by RAW they're unavailable to the player since they're in the Bestiary. You will see a few specific instances in the advanced player's guide that allows players to take this feat. The shapeshift ranger is a perfect example.
II. Not entirely sure what you're asking here. If your DM allows you to take improved natural weapon (claws) it's only going to function when you qualify for the feat; as in, when you have claws. Keep in mind that Claws, Talons, Bite, and Slam are the four most common natural attacks you'll see when wild shaping.Hope any of that helps.
1. Wildshape: I've read in various places on the forums that supposably shamens dont gain the ability to cast wildshape till they are lvl6. However by the wording on d20pfsrd.com it seems you do get wildshape, however at lvl 6 it only functions as lvl 4 wildshape unless with the chosen creature (wolf) where it then acts as a lvl 8 wildshape. I'd like to know PFS ruling on this.
Regarding the Wildshape thing, i don't think they gain a late entry to Wildshape at all.
Looking at the Bear Shaman entry (which is the foundation upon which all animal shamans are built), it says the following:
Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a bear shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a bear, she instead uses her druid level + 2.
Nowhere in this entry does it say the druid doesn't get Wildshape at lvl 4. At level 4, the Animal Shaman's Wildshape functions identically to a Core Druid's. The modification comes in at lvl 6, where it says that - depending on the form chosen - the druid treats himself as a lvl 4 druid or a lvl 8 druid - giving him longer durations in the ability as well as access to more (or less) abilities in the form.
This interpretation is reinforced by the general formatting they used when writing out archetype features. They are pretty specific if an ability is changed, removed, or moved to a different level within the class. And in this entry it doesn't say that the Wildshape feature (gained at lvl 4 in Core) is removed or level changed. Take for example, the Weapon Adept Monk. Their evasion is pushed back a number of levels, and it is expressly explained so in the entry for Evasion:
Way of the Weapon Master (Ex): At 2nd level, a weapon adept gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one of his monk weapons. At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces evasion.
Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, the monk gains evasion. This ability replaces improved evasion.
Seeing how they very explicitly mention the level changes of the class feature itself, it makes sense to assume that they only thing modified by the Wildshape entry for the Animal Shaman is the variables within the class feature itslef… not the level the feature is attained.
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Nowhere in this entry does it say the druid doesn't get Wildshape at lvl 4. At level 4, the Animal Shaman's Wildshape functions identically to a Core Druid's. The modification comes in at lvl 6, where it says that - depending on the form chosen - the druid treats himself as a lvl 4 druid or a lvl 8 druid - giving him longer durations in the ability as well as access to more (or less) abilities in the form.
So you mean to say that you believe that the druid treats her wild shape level as her druid level for 4th and 5th level, but at six she suddenly becomes worse at normal animals, instead being treated again at 4th level?
I'm unaware of any place in the rules where you actively become worse at a particular ability while progressing in your levels, though I could very easily be incorrect.
It seems the most intuitive and simple explanation is that you don't get wild shape until 6th level, which is likely RAI (rules as intended). Getting this delayed access to Wild Shape is common among most of the druid archetypes.
Actually i would suggest that at lvl 4 they are treated as a regular druid until level 6, where they don't advance with any animals but their totem animal, making them a savant within their specific area of focus, but behind the curve everywhere else. This explanation is both within RAI and RAW.
Again, it's not that the druid is ever getting worse with any ability. THey just focus their ability at lvl 6, staying the same with most wildshapes but advancing dramatically with their specific animal.
Nowhere in this entry does it say the druid doesn't get Wildshape at lvl 4. At level 4, the Animal Shaman's Wildshape functions identically to a Core Druid's. The modification comes in at lvl 6, where it says that - depending on the form chosen - the druid treats himself as a lvl 4 druid or a lvl 8 druid - giving him longer durations in the ability as well as access to more (or less) abilities in the form.So you mean to say that you believe that the druid treats her wild shape level as her druid level for 4th and 5th level, but at six she suddenly becomes worse at normal animals, instead being treated again at 4th level?
I'm unaware of any place in the rules where you actively become worse at a particular ability while progressing in your levels, though I could very easily be incorrect.
I agree with Eben TheQuiet. You don't get worse at wildshape when you hit level 6, you just get better at one kind instead of all kinds.
Core Druid:
1 - No Wildshape
2 - No Wildshape
3 - No Wildshape
4 - Beastshape I
5 - Beastshape I
6 - Beastshape II
7 - Beastshape II
8 - Beastshape III
Wolf Shaman:
1 - No Wildshape
2 - No Wildshape
3 - No Wildshape
4 - Beastshape I
5 - Beastshape I
6 - Beastshape I (III for Wolves)
7 - Beastshape I (III for Wolves)
8 - Beastshape II (IV for Wolves)
So, all 4th & 5th level druids have the same shapechange ability. Core druids get better at level 6, animal shaman get much better at their chosen animal at level 6 not at any other kinds.
Also, you don't adjust the number of wildshapes per day. It's still 1 shift at 4th level, +1 every other level until 20th, when it becomes at will.
Getting this delayed access to Wild Shape is common among most of the druid archetypes.
I think my argumetn is even supported by the book in this aspect. Let's look at one of the other archetypes that gets delayed access..
Wild Shape (Su): An aquatic druid gains this ability at 6th level, except that her effective druid level for the ability is equal to her druid level – 2.
emphasis mine. See how, in this excerpt, they explicitly stated that the druid doesn't get the wildshape class feature until lvl 6. This language is not in the animal totem block at all. We can either assume this is a glaring oversight - which I don't think it is - or that it was intentionally written this way.
It seems more appropriate to me to assume it's intended, especially given the fact that the Animal Shamans have an emphasis on shapeshifting in general, so it seems odd that their class ability thta makes them able to shape-shift would be delayed til later in their career.
I see where you two are coming from, but your wild shape does get worse at 6th level, where the difference between 4th & 5th level is an hour of duration. At higher levels that won't mean much, but it's a tangible deduction in power.
If that were the intended interpretation of the rules, why wouldn't they have included the level delay in the rules block as they did with every other archetype class feature level delay in the book? The only answer to that question is that they missed it - which, again, I don't believe is the case. If it comes out in an errata that that was the case, then I'll eat my words, but for the time being, both RAW and RAI support my interpretation.
I will grant you that in that one aspect the druid gets worse at wildshaping. That their durations for wildshaping into shapes that aren't their focus are shorter. But again, this seems like an intentional change made that is supported not only by the theme of the class, but also by the way the rules are written.
I see where you two are coming from, but your wild shape does get worse at 6th level, where the difference between 4th & 5th level is an hour of duration. At higher levels that won't mean much, but it's a tangible deduction in power.
I don't think you actually reduce the duration. Just like uses per day, I'd leave duration as "druid level". I believe the only element they meant to change was "What can I turn into and how powerful is it". I could be wrong about the duration though.
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| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I will have to agree with Sean here. The ability is listed at 6th in the alternate entry. The fact that there would be an hour duration fluctuation from 5 to 6 would be rather silly and show that getting it at 4 then altering durations at 6 is clearly not the intent. It is just a matter of poor/inconsistent wording.
The pure fact of the matter is you are trading a slight delay in acquiring the wildshape ability for have a more powerful specific form. There will be no resolution on this thread until a dev comes and straightens it out. It is just not written well enough for weird loopholes to be found and used. As a GM, I like to play strictly by the book. If someone played this, they would get it at 6th, because that is when it is listed in the entry in the APG. Otherwise it would look like this:
Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a bear shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a bear, she instead uses her druid level + 2.
I will be FAQ'ing this, as should all others concerned. Hopefully, that wording gets cleared up in the next revision
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I see where you two are coming from, but your wild shape does get worse at 6th level, where the difference between 4th & 5th level is an hour of duration. At higher levels that won't mean much, but it's a tangible deduction in power.I don't think you actually reduce the duration. Just like uses per day, I'd leave duration as "druid level". I believe the only element they meant to change was "What can I turn into and how powerful is it". I could be wrong about the duration though.
That is stretching it beyond the rule being discussed. That is turning it into a house rule. It explicitly states you use the modified druid level. That effects every aspect of it.
I agree that this is FAQ-worthy, and have tagged it as such.
My problem with your interpretation, however, is that it still doesn't account for the lack of text that actually says the druid level is changed that they actually attain the Wildshape ability. All it says is that at level six, your effective druid level is altered for purposes of wildshape depending on your animal chosen... nothing else.
I'd overlook this, but a similar line is in every other archetype modification where a class feature changes the level that it's attained, indicating that the level change is, in fact, not intended.
I agree that this is FAQ-worthy, and have tagged it as such.
My problem with your interpretation, however, is that it still doesn't account for the lack of text that actually says the druid level is changed that they actually attain the Wildshape ability. All it says is that at level six, your effective druid level is altered for purposes of wildshape depending on your animal chosen... nothing else.
I'd overlook this, but a similar line is in every other archetype modification where a class feature changes the level that it's attained, indicating that the level change is, in fact, not intended.
Where-as I see it as a simple overlooking to include the line. These things go through countless revisions, and if everyone on board had the same understanding it can be really easy to simply forget to include that bit.
I find the idea of jumping around in power level to be incredibly clunky and counter-intuitive. Getting the ability at 6th level is in line with every other druid Archetype and flows well in my opinion.
But I agree, clarification is needed.
Where-as I see it as a simple overlooking to include the line. These things go through countless revisions, and if everyone on board had the same understanding it can be really easy to simply forget to include that bit.
I find the idea of jumping around in power level to be incredibly clunky and counter-intuitive. Getting the ability at 6th level is in line with every other druid Archetype and flows well in my opinion.
But I agree, clarification is needed.
Well, like i said earlier, i don't think my interpretation means the druid question would be "jumping around in power level". Nearly every aspect of their wildshaping skills would either be A) staying the same when choosing a form that is not your totem animal. Or B) Improving immensely when choosing your totem animal form. The only thing that would be gettign worse is your number of hours you would remain in the form of anything but your animal totem, and I believe that makes sense because you're choosing to focus your efforts into learning one form over the others... the others would logically suffer. That's hardly "jumping around in power level".
But yah, until we get clarification, i think we may just have to agree to disagree. Though, to be honest, if I'm right, there is no change needed because all the verbage is there.
If it gets errata'd, then i'll happily admit to being wrong.
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The main thing I see wrong in this statement...
Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a bear shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a bear, she instead uses her druid level + 2.
...is that is seems incomplete, like the idea wasn't fully put on paper. I think that is the part that makes it seem that wildshape comes at 4th still.
Not trying to be aggressive or overly persistent on this issue, but I just don't see where the ambiguity is. it seems fairly straight-forward.
Take all the variables based on Druid level and reduce it by 2 when shaping into anything but a bear. So, duration, what size/stats can be assumed, and special attacks/abilities obtainable in the chosen form. So at lvl 6, a Bear shaman can turn into a wolf for 4 hours, he can only be a small or medium wolf (if such a thing existed), will take the size/attribute modifications according to that size, and will get the special abilities/attacks listed under the level 4 Wildshape entry.
Then, if the Bear Shaman does decide to become a bear, his effective Druid level is 8, meaning he can become a Huge or Diminutive bear (or bear shape in between as allowed by the general Wildshape rules), with all the stat/size modifiers listed in Beast Shape III or lower that apply to the chosen form, and they get the much-expanded list of special abilities/attacks (again, as listed in the Beast Shape III spell).
Where does the ambiguity come in?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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If that were the intended interpretation of the rules, why wouldn't they have included the level delay in the rules block as they did with every other archetype class feature level delay in the book?
Because the different sections were written by different people, who often used slightly different phrasing for similar intended effect. Of the APG class mods, I wrote barbarians, bards, druids, fighters, and sorcerers over the span of several months. Others wrote other classes.
Everyone's text isn't going to match exactly, and unfortunately sometimes in the constant revising process of writing up rules text sometimes you misstate a thing (take, for instance, Selective Spell, in which I thought I had stated it applied only to instantaneous spells... but I didn't, and has since been errata'ed). Also, the way you write things may change over the evolution of your writing of a piece. For instance, why didn't I just use the same phrasing for animal shamans as I did for, say, plains druid or mountain druid.
Unfortunately, I have no idea. Most likely I wrote the animal shamans section at a separate time from having written the other druid section, and when I blended them I didn't notice I had phrased things differently in one section (terrain druids) than the other (animal shamans).
Hopefully inconsistencies can be eliminated in writing. On the hopefully rare occasions they aren't, hopefully they're caught during editing and development. On the now rare to the rare power occasions they aren't caught in either, stuff will slip through that ends up ambiguous or unclear.
That's the real mea culpa - mistakes happen, and in a book so densely packed with very specific rules text, a word or phrase missing means a lot more to that individual subunit of the text than in the middle of running prose.
The only answer to that question is that they missed it - which, again, I don't believe is the case.
It is the case.
If it comes out in an errata that that was the case, then I'll eat my words, but for the time being, both RAW and RAI support my interpretation.
RAW in this case, due to my ambiguous and unclear writing, is an arguable point.
RAI, however, is, was, and always has been entirely clear: animal shaman druids DO NOT GET ANY WILD SHAPE until 6th level, period, end of story. That is the Rule As Intended.
Really, animal shamans get so many extras that delayed wild shape is just about the only drawback. If they were to get wild shape at the same time as other druids, it would be pretty much all-win, and that was something I and the other authors strove hard to avoid in the APG - new class options that were clearly superior to core; more specialized, sure; neat tricks that core can't do, absolutely; but across the board better? No way.
My RAI as the author of that part of the rules, however, is not official errata and may get you nowhere with a strict RAW situation like PFS, until such time as official errata are released.
How I should have phrased the text (or if I were writing the errata) ought to have been (referring to APG, p. 102 (bear shaman, wild shape)):
"Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a bear shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level -2... "
should be
"Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a bear shaman gains the wild shape ability, which functions at her druid level -2... "
Ditto for all the other animal shamans.
Again, I am not the official errata-giver, but the RAI is absolutely plain and simple.
I will grant you that in that one aspect the druid gets worse at wildshaping. That their durations for wildshaping into shapes that aren't their focus are shorter. But again, this seems like an intentional change made that is supported not only by the theme of the class, but also by the way the rules are written.
Only because I phrased the text poorly.
I had thought saying "6th level: Wild Shape..." would be sufficient implication that 6th level was when you got wild shape; I was surprised when folks took it differently, though that meaning can be inferred.
Maybe I thought the idea that your wild shape would start at 4th level, get better at 5th, then get worse at 6th would be nonsensical, which would prevent anyone from reading it that way.
My apologies if the above sounds annoyed, but it feels like this issue has been brought up and answered numerous times in other threads. I readily cop to the crime of leaving the ambiguity in the text, but I hope this note at least clears up the RAI.
If you're playing PFS or some other RAW, you'll need to take it up with your local chapter or table GM to see how they are ruling the RAW, since it can be argued either way.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The main thing I see wrong in this statement...
Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a bear shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a bear, she instead uses her druid level + 2.
...is that is seems incomplete, like the idea wasn't fully put on paper. I think that is the part that makes it seem that wildshape comes at 4th still.
Yep. I might have been up against word count and trimmed a line like "you do not get wild shape at 4th level" because it seemed redundant.
Of course, I came up with a far clearer phrasing in the post above that uses virtually the same number of words... but sometimes you don't think of things until later. :(
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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"A wolf shaman can use wild empathy with canines as a full-round action with a +4 bonus."
can shamans not use wild empathy with other animals? or simply doesn't receive a bonus when not using empathy on non-(insert animal type)'s
RAW = ambiguous. :(
RAI = You can still use your regular wild empathy as written. 1 minute, no bonus. OR you can use your canine wild empathy, full-round, +4 bonus, canines only.
Wow. Thanks, Jason. That's very helpful.
Looks like you guys were right (Shar Tahl and and Sean FitzSimons). Consider my words eaten.
:)
The only answer to that question is that they missed it - which, again, I don't believe is the case.It is the case.
Schooled. Ouch.
No need to apologize for being frustrated. I didn't do my homework before-hand and do a search. That's my mistake. If you've answered his elsewhere, then i apologize for beating you over the head with it... if it helps any, I did it out of ignorance. Not any feelings that you or anyone who has contributed to the Paizo books are doing a poor job.
nothing to see here.. stupid needless post.
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However still leaves one question up in the air, which i know may or may nor be resolvable, but if a druid has a natural weapon (say claws via the aspect of the beast feat) can they take improved natural weapons?
If you mean Improved Natural Attack, no. Under the current rules of Pathfinder Society, no feats from the Bestiary are allowed to be taken by the PCs (Animal Companions are the exception, which they can only take those listed under druid). This may change with the next major revision, which I think they are working on now. No ETA on it though.
The only deviation from the PDF rules for Pathfinder Society is the sticky post on the general board about GM/Player credit( the 1 and 1 rule)
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I play a druid in PFS. He is up to 9 now. You can still be quite viable in combat with the current rules. Mine is build for melee combat and is mostly the primary tank in the group. Hopefully, there will be modifications to the core stuff that reflects all the new things added in the APG and bestiary 2. Some of those feats would have been good on my T-Rex! I am hoping they update it soon, but they have a lot to do with it so it's hard to say.
If the companion has 3+ int, it says they can take any feat they are capable of taking. I would say that since they have bestiary feats listed in their core set up, it could be argued they could take other bestiary feats beyond the list. But this would be up to the officials to rule on. You should check with your local venture captain on this.
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I believe the intent is using your new effective levels to determine the size and shapes.
Relative Druid Wolf Shaman Forms:
At 6th level, Huge or Diminutive Wolf as beast shape III, Small or Medium other animals as beast shape I
At 8th level, a Small elemental as elemental body I, Large or Tiny other animals as beast shape II
At 10th level, Huge or Diminutive other animals as Beast shape III, a Medium elemental as elemental body II, or a Small or Medium plant creature as plant shape I.
At 12th level, Large elemental as elemental body III or a Large plant creature as plant shape II.
At 14th level, Huge elemental as elemental body IV, Huge plant creature as plant shape III.
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Your effective level is Druid level of (Current Level +2) for canine forms.
Your effective level is Druid level of(Current level -2) for all else
The overall benefit seems to be only gaining an extra two hours on duration on canines and getting huge and diminutive canine forms 2 levels early. The cost is quite high.
It would be good if the Beast Shape moved up IV for canines and let you choose Winter Wolf as an option (Large Magical Beast) or other canine like creatures
Aye my thoughts exactly, however an official intention would be appreciated. because this further nerfs the shamen i was considering making for PFS. Or asi siad you could use it to take a "canine" elemental form as it says in various places elemntals can take what ever form they wish. i dont think the stats would overlap, you would just gain the elemental stat increases. And it says animal specificly, i've seen in various other posts that it was never intended for wildshape to take magical beasts shape,form, w/eYour effective level is Druid level of (Current Level +2) for canine forms.
Your effective level is Druid level of(Current level -2) for all else
The overall benefit seems to be only gaining an extra two hours on duration on canines and getting huge and diminutive canine forms 2 levels early. The cost is quite high.
It would be good if the Beast Shape moved up IV for canines and let you choose Winter Wolf as an option (Large Magical Beast) or other canine like creatures
Dude, it's a nerf, and very much an intentional one. The Shaman archetypes trade out the "meh" stuff a druid gets for some super cool bonuses: quick & easy polymorph that are easily divided up, free feats, access to different domains, unhindered bonuses to wild empathy, and huge boosts to summoning. What do you truly lose? You get wild shape 2 levels later, except when it pertains to your totem. Most of the other archetypes lose that (or more) for a lot less.
Don't complain. The animal shaman are easily more powerful than your base Druid, barring specific and unusual circumstances.