Ranked Sneak Attack from Behind Somone


Rules Questions


The rules state that "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"

One of our players is a ranged rogue and he uses this quote "If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC." To get sneak attacks anytime he is behind a character because if your behind someone you cannot react to their attacks.

Is this being done correctly?

I originally thought the intention of sneak attack, especially ranged sneak attacks was for it to require spending a round for stealth checks with concealment/invisibility.

Please Help, Thanks!

Shadow Lodge

There is NO FACING IN PATHFINDER! He is wrong because, essentially, everyone is flowing in circles to react to everything, and honestly, peripheral vision exists. Now, if he has cover and manages to get within sneak attack range to shoot, he can sneak attack by sniping.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Being "behind" someone is only a flavor thing in Pathfinder. Conceptually, if you are flanking your foe it can't face towards both enemies all the time and so you are behind it at some point - that could be used as the flavor description of why you get sneak attack while flanking. Similarly, if you sneak up on someone who doesn't know you're there, your surprise round sneak attack could be decribed as stabbing them in the back. Once combat starts, unless you're hidden somehow via stealth or invisibility, all opponents are assumed to be keeping an eye on each other, and changing facing as necessary, so no cheap "I get behind him" sneak attacks.


As ArmouredMonk13 points out, Pathfinder has no facing. There is no 'behind' in the game, for better or worse.

The stealth errata was recently released to update the Stealth rules on how this works. Here's the text (with the relevant portion bolded)

Stealth:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).

In other words: If the target is unaware of the Rogue, and the Rogue is at least 10 feet away, he can make a single ranged attack and get sneak attack damage to it. If he makes more than one attack, then the targets are aware of him automatically.

If he only makes the one attack, he can then roll another Stealth vs. Perception check (at a -20 penalty) to remain hidden; if he fails, then the target(s) are aware of his location. He would need to regain concealment against them and succeed at another stealth check to make them 'unaware' of him again, and regain sneak attack.


Just to add to what has been said, Pathfinder rules don't have ANY rule for being "behind" someone. Nothing. This means that you are never "behind" anyone, ever. Now, a player or GM might describe someone as being "behind" someone else, but that is just a description because, again, there is no rule anywhere that defines any kind of game mechanic for being "behind" anyone. No bonuses, no modifiers, no special abilities, nothing.

There is no concept of "behind" in the Pathfinder rules.

So, by the rules, that rogue cannot justify getting any sneak attacks by simply positioning himself to be "behind" an enemy because that concept doesn't exist as a game mechanic or rule.

In order to sneak attack, the rogue needs to flank, or needs to be invisible (in some situations using Stealth can be just as good as invisibility for this purpose), or needs to somehow disable his target to make him unable to defend himself (helpless, unconscious, etc.).

Without doing one of those things, all his enemies can spend a tiny fraction of their 6-second melee round to look around, peek over their shoulder, pay attention to their surroundings, and otherwise keep track of exactly where that rogue is so that he is never "behind" them - in fact, the game assumes that everyone does this automatically, which is why there is no "behind" rule (or any other kind of Facing rule) in Pathfinder.


Honestly, I agree with the zero facing anyways. As stated above, it only takes a fraction of a second to turn your eyes, head, and shoulder around in a circle to get very near to 360 degree vision. And you're sure to do that in combat, unless you're unable to see, hear, or detect a threat in a certain direction.

Let's be honest, even if you become incorporeal and come through a wall that the opponent is backed up to, that first attack is going to be "sneaky". The others are not. He's not going to stand still, back still against the wall, looking straight ahead unless he's paralyzed.

I think some people truly believe when it's not their turn, other characters or monsters are literally frozen still. Perhaps it's a side-effect of miniatures battles or other remnants of other rules systems with facing.


Yep, you're player is wrong, and possibly down right cheating. He needs to use stealth or invsibility to make ranged sneak attacks. He cannot flank with ranged attacks. Without greater invisibility I can think of no way he can even make more than one ranged sneak attack in a round.

Edit: Excepting maybe using Enforcer, Shatter Defenses, and blunt arrows.


It is possible to drink a vanish potion and then the following round you could take a full-round attack action and get all sneak attacks correct?


No. The invisibility spell (which vanish mimics) wears off when you attack. You'd get sneak attack on your first attack, and that's all.

Also, in the future, please post new threads instead of replying to unrelated ones.


DM_Blake wrote:
Just to add to what has been said, Pathfinder rules don't have ANY rule for being "behind" someone.

Almost true. For most things your are right, an exception exist however. See "gaze attack".


thewickedone wrote:
It is possible to drink a vanish potion and then the following round you could take a full-round attack action and get all sneak attacks correct?

No, it works like invisibility. As soon as you make a single attack invisbility breaks. Once you are no longer invisibile you longer get sneak attack. So, you could drink a potion of Vanish on 1 round and move into position. The next round you would already be invisible and your opponent would be denied their dex against your attack and you could sneak attack them. After your first attack (whether you hit or miss) you are no longer invisible and the opponent is no longer denied their dex to AC. Now, you cannot sneak attack them. You could at this point continue your attack for a full round action, but not receiving anymore sneak attacks, or you could move away, or you could drink a potion as a move action, or do anything else that you could do by using a move action or swift action (suposing you hadn't done something already to use your swift).

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