Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

The path sounds fine to me.

ADVENTURE!

I proposed a slight alteration on the path back to make sure we cover the "coasts" of the rivers, something I forgot with the original.

Also, didn't we explore the standing stones on the way south?
Before deviating from the path(regarding the old Sycamore Tree).

I follow or range ahead or something

I see a lot of lines on the map and most of them don't correspond to where we are. :)

I propose we start by exploring the hex we are in.

The standing stones hex we just passed through quickly, but I agree that we should probably explore that one further.

However, Numalar can now make wondrous items if he can get materials for them. So the question is, do we want to take time out for him to do that? We would probably have to return to Oleg's at the very least.

The plan was a full ranging expedition, because we don't know what happens in the background, so did not intend to waste time going back to Oleg every time we found something.

Are your materials needed beyond what Naleksa could provide? If so, Oleg would probably need to place an order for them, anyway.

As for the lines on the map: The dark blue one starting at Olegs was GM's suggestion, which we accepted.
The yellow one was the excursion to the bear cave after you guys buddied up with a fey telling you about it...well, not telling all and probably expecting us to get torn into pieces in a funny way.
Cyan was the original path back, allowing us to cover the remainder of the hexes on the right-hand side of the map.
Magenta fixes that path, by also tracing along the rivers properly, to make sure we don't have to backtrack or cross rivers needlessly later simply to "complete" exploring some of the hexes.

Moving this to discussion, since it is all out of character:

Numalar did act for all of us... as in, hypocrisy....

Part of why I put that in there. Gotta give you some material to work with. :) I'm actually going to throw some red herrings your way that will reinforce your "Numalar has changed" paranoia too.

But Numalar feels justified since killing the thing was the party's overall goal. So he was "speaking for the party" based on a consensus that already existed.

And he already has the experience of Alia telling him that something that was trying to kill him is not dangerous. So he knows that Alia tends to underestimate risk.

without inmediate need to do so ... but we were not in a hurry,

In or out of character, I don't agree there. We were in combat, and the Thing's turn was coming up. It was in bad shape, but it was not defeated. Nor had it surrendered. The fact that it was talking means nothing, since it was talking the entire encounter.

We were warned about the variety of abilities such creatures had by Ed. Who knows what he would have tried on his turn, at the very least teleporting again? And yes, you could have tried to interrupt that with an attack, but there's no guarantee that you would hit. Hitting him wasn't a piece of cake normally, and hiding behind the shelves gave him cover. His AC was at least 17 (Zokon missed on a 16), which means with cover you would have needed at least 21 to hit him. Maybe more.

The Thing took down Zokon in only 2 rounds. I didn't want him to get another chance.

and we knew the guy was stuck here. Not like he could have run away....

If he dimension doored again, there's no guarantee we would have found him the second time around. It was smart enough not to hide in the same spot twice. So yes, he absolutely could have run away.

... because we don't know what happens in the background, so did not intend to waste time ...

I don't remember anyone bringing this point up. It's interesting, but I don't feel like we are on any kind of timetable, or need to act as if we are. The thing about exploring is the land is still there next time you look. So I don't mind taking time to do things.

Are your materials needed beyond what Naleksa could provide? If so, Oleg would probably need to place an order for them, anyway.

Good Question.

I know Oleg might not have what we need. Which is why I said "at the very least." But I don't mind a trip back to Restov if that is what it takes. If we are going to have Oleg order things though then we need to notify him. If we do go that way we can start out on the pink/light blue routes.

As for the lines on the map...

I don't think it makes sense to have more than a general plan. Things will come up that will make us change our plans, and a lot of those lines have routes that will take ages of gametime to execute, and they still leave lots of the map unexplored.

My overall exploration desires are:
1. Standing Stones
2. The Old Sycamore
3. Nettle's Crossing
4. Kobold Rendezvous
5. Heibarr Fort

But I would like to fill in as much of the map is possible while doing that.

Edit: I note that the pink route visits a lot of hexes that are almost totally off the map. I don't think we need to explore those.

It's that time again...The Item Crafting Discussion

Ahh, Item Crafting my old enemy. Have you heard the old Klingon proverb that revenge is a dish best served cold? It is very cold in space.

Those people not in this game please go to the gym for that other assembly.

Alright, it's time to discuss Item Creation, and while abstinence is one option there are a host of others.

Item crafting is usually not that big of a deal for most of my games. Usually one or two people pick up one or two feats apiece and that's it. They either make do with the what they find in the game, or buy custom stuff from the local temple or magic shop.

This gets a whole lot more complicated in Kingmaker because of the way treasure distorts the local economy--a situation I am still trying to get a handle on. Sure Gus over their sold his 300 head of cattle to feed a nearby village with for the next 6 months, but I made this magic stick that creates impenetrable darkness and made twice as much money.... It's just not really realistic.

So, I instituted the Ideal Treasure Trove Bank, or just the Bank for short. Basically, each player could come to me with his or her requests for a specific magical item, like say a large +2 vorpal adamantine scythe or some such item that was never going to show up in the game normally. We would figure out the cost of said item, and every time treasure was divvied up in game after a successful encounter the player had the choice of taking her share of the 560 gp, 2000 sp, handy haversack, masterwork scale mail, and two masterwork daggers... or she could convert her share or part of it into 'bank'. "No one needs the mail I'll take that as bank." And basically they would just leave the armor behind. And really who wants armor that someone has bled all over the inside of any how?

Banked items are non-retrievable once banked. They fade from the campaign and become money toward the cost of the item the player wants for their character.

Down the road, and sometimes it was down a very long road, the player would accumulate enough bank (sometimes combined with actual money) to be able to pay for the item in question. When they were ready they would tell me and the next time the party uncovered a trove of treasure the item they wanted would be a part of it and they got it--period. The wealth would drain from their bank (and perhaps their pocket if necessary). The item in question would not count against their share of the rest of the trove and no one else would have the option of gaining sought after item.

The system cut down on the party being forced to cart tons of masterwork half-plate, huge giant's +2 great club, and the scraped-off decorative gold leafing from the doors of an evil temple around with them. Basically it cut down on 'looting the bodies', something that rarely happens in most fantasy novels except as a story point to facilitate gaining a disguise or the bare minimum of equipment needed to continue on (like say in a prison break scenario). And most importantly the PCs got what they wanted, in addition to whatever random treasure the scenario generated.

Bank could also be used to improve already magical items. Some characters would start small with say a +1 weapon and then build it up, 'unlocking' further powers as they grew in experience and bank, which cut down on swapping up for better items later in the campaign. "Sorry Excalibur, but you just don't cut it anymore."

The system had its downside. A character might have to wait a session or two for the item to appear (that might be exacerbated by a PbP game), but on the whole it solved more problems than it created, and while folks still paid full-price for items, they didn't have to do anything more than adventure to acquire them.

I bring this up because we are getting to the point where item creation is becoming a thing, and there are a lot of potential crafters in the party. Unlike some APs where a character goes from 1st to 17th level over the course of a long holiday weekend--Kingmaker offers a lot of down time between some of the books--years of time in fact. This is especially true between books all of the first 4 books (4-6 can be pretty tight on time depending on how things go).

Again I am not really certain how I want to handle the magical item economy in terms of the kingdom(s) as a whole but I still have a little time to figure that out.

More immediately this is a party concern. I understand the idea that taking Craft Whatever might seem a waste to the crafter when Power Attack is available, and that you might be lagging behind in "cool" feats by taking such, but truth be told being able to make your own stuff is pretty cool and when done well can make a party (or even just the crafters themselves) pretty resourceful. Sure it's not as obvious a feat as Spring Attack, but having access to cheap magic can be an even bigger boon in a party with 5 casters (and apparently, a skirmishing ranger). Regardless, you can't really have it both ways. Feats are a limited resource and if you happen to be a martial caster mix or a full on caster who wants to contribute to the battle line you'll have to decide what prioritize. After all, if everyone could craft stuff and Improved Overrun foes what would be so cool about being a fighter?

I suggest discussing what you would like to see happen here before folks start taking too many feats, and if possible divvying up the responsibilities based upon your decisions.

GGGM: can Naleksa provide materials for crafting? If so, how much?

Depends on what you need.

Marketer In the field coin isn’t always available. Camp followers inevitably gather eclectic collections of gear and trade items as payment for their services. At the GM’s discretion, a camp follower may be treated as a Thorp-sized community for determining the GP limit of trade items and mundane items she has available for sale or trade. A camp follower’s prices are 10% higher than standard due to scarcity. Any equipment purchased is limited by the follower’s carrying capacity unless she owns a mount, wagon, or other transport.

One further GM caveat--she may not have large supplies of individual items she does have in stock (like say a half-dozen 10-foot poles).

@hypocrisy: As said, I know it was the previous consensus, but that was before things changed. It was trying to hide, not fight, after having fled. So we may have gotten it to yield and barter for it's continued existance, with information. but as mentioned, that one is in-character. OOC i understand.

@needed to hurry/flee: my point was it could only have fled to someplace else in the dungeon. It is STUCK here. Not like it can pack up and move to some other ancient temple. What else are we gonna do today, move on instead of resting up in camp? Probably not. We got the whole day to find him again if need be.

@his turn coming up/hitting: Maybe I would have hit, maybe I would have missed. Regardless, it was a risk I was willing to take. Only I was threatened standing in front of it(due to melee and corner cover). *shrug* Would have been a prime chance to lecture me if I gambled and was wrong.

@time table/exploration: It was said that events are moving in the background, and other groups are out exploring other areas. I am not looking back through discussion to find it again, but the implication was that we should not needlessly travel back and forth taking our sweet time. Not exactly that we were on a deadline, but that other groups may end up with a headstart if we take too long, or events take place prematurely.

@routes: As said, simple tried to cover all the areas so that "region" of the map is fully explored. Obviously we are not visiting off-map areas if not needed, but they were included to be on the save side. I think we voted back then and choose this course.

@exploring: Technically, by the official reasoning, it's mapping for merchant purposes...roads or shipping via river. So it makes perfect sense to check the rivers and possible crossings/rapids that would present difficulties to either. It's unlikely the most optimal route for moving goods would lead through the marches, or even the forest...albeit possible, of course, but checking the flatlands first makes sense.

Call your tactic Artificial Limitation So The Game Is Not Wrecked..

Say magic item creation is limited in certain ways that you feel will not blow up your game. The feat allows the group the freedom to make specific items that may never be run across, which is awesome.

I assume we are all trusting enough in your judgement to go with this? Feel free to chime in team if you have alternate or better ideas.

@hypocrisy, @needed to hurry/flee, @his turn coming up/hitting....

Points made. Done is done. Let's move forward. Let's not beat a dead undead to death.

@time table/exploration: It was said that events are moving in the background, and other groups are out exploring other areas.

I should point out that these are two nearly separate things. There are other Brevic groups out there exploring their own individual hunks of the Stolen Land. Your group has been tasked with the Greenbelt region as shown on the Interactive Area Map. This was a staged process with the groups each starting at different times (weeks apart in some cases). Your group was the last group to start. You are not in a race against these other explorers as you are all working for the same government on parallel tasks.

That said the other explorers are not the only things moving forward in time. There's a war between the Sootscale Kobolds and "Blue Meanies" brewing, there's the Sootscales angry god, there's the farmers' planting season, there's the ever growing threat of banditry as exemplified by the Stag Lord, There are new people moving in and out of the trading post, and of course those moon radishes aren't getting any fresher....

@routes: As said, simple tried to cover all the areas so that "region" of the map is fully explored. Obviously we are not visiting off-map areas if not needed, but they were included to be on the save side. I think we voted back then and choose this course.

@exploring:....

Pink looks a bit long and complex and perhaps unmanagable in one long trip. This is actually only your second foray into the wilds, and the first where you are actually exploring to any great extent. So don't feel you need to kill yourselves. keep it manageable. I would suggest sticking to the blue paths for now as they are moderately long, intersect with most of your current map-based quests, and allow you a good look at the land around Oleg's.

You can of course go where ever you like and back to Oleg's to resupply if you feel the need to. The paths are only there as guides to facilitate movement.

@points made: I felt that Numalar wanted to discuss those more, bringing them up here. But sure, I'll stand down.

@time: thanks for clarification. If I do have time, I may look for the previous discussion and re-read it.

@routes: new attempt@magenta - the main idea originally was to completely cover the area between the two rivers, and not backtrack too much, nor leave areas here open that we need to cover in a separate expedition.

The new line ignores the partial hexes at the right-end-side of the map, and covers Sycamore and Standing stones, so we don't have to backtrack from the bear cave, but could move straight south towards silver mine before continuing to the old fort.

But honestly, it's simply that: a suggestion. I'm not skilled in geography or survival, nor in mapmaking - I don't even have a job from Brevoy, and am simply looking for an elven ruin - so it's definitely not my call to make.

@Crafting: Well, I'll say that the expectation of crafting weaponry and armor of all sorts was the basis for picking up Soul Forger Archetype.

The intent was not value generation as much as making sure everybody gets the weapon or armor they want, AND we have "wealth-by-level" to spare for more gimmicky things, spell activation items or utility wands.

Admittedly, I also considered, if I'm following my intended Feat Path, to outfit my soldiers with Masterwork Equipment, or better(for troop leaders), rather than trust another supplier.

I am quite open for different ways of handling things. But if crafting ultimately gets shafted in favor of a banking system that spits out exactly what one wants, and keeping economy in check, then I would request an opportunity to retrain archetypes, as the main draw(Master Smith(Ex)) of Soul Forger then becomes moot.

Banking would be 'in addition' to, not 'instead of' Craft Feats. There is no current plan to eliminate the Craft Feats.

Note that banking an item still means you are paying full price for it, but if anyone wants to find a sword sticking out of a big honking stone with properties that Alia cannot create (for whatever reason) this would be one way of doing that.

Note too that there will still be "random" treasure drops as normal in a Pathfinder game. For instance, I ran a game where the desert elf falchion fighter burned through his bank for a nice custom falchion only to run into an equally good, but different magical falchion at about the same time. He ended up keeping both, but the party could have banked it and split its worth among their various banks, if they wanted to.

So Alia's planning on picking up Craft Arms and Armor. Numalar has Wondrous Item. Anyone got anything else? Potions? Scrolls?

As for the Kingdom Building version I think I'll wait and see how it works first. If it does break the game I'll change it them, but there are so few examples of how Kingdom Building works that I think I want to see it before tinkering with it.

Good to hear about the crafting still being there.

As for being unable to create? Technically, I can create everything that is arms and armor. Since almost all the requirements can be bypassed with a higher check DC, it's only a matter of raw material requisitioning :)

But I know what you mean.

@GM: May I also kindly poke you regarding the topics open in PM from some while ago. I am afraid of sending another PM and being marked of as obnoxious - specifically if the obedience is not fine, I can also flat-out take Shelyn's 1:1 - and with the blade, I simply await a decision.

An Elf obnoxious ... never!!!.. oh you mean you well.. possibly.. ;o)

An Elf obnoxious ... never!!!.. oh you mean you well.. possibly.. ;o)

And I sincerely apologize.

The 'bank' reminds me of a system that the GM came up with in another game I am in.

In that game, aside from a few things seeded by the GM the players basically choose what treasure they find. But they have to keep their total wealth equal to or less than the Wealth-By-Level amounts in the CRB. It works all right once you get used to it though it eliminates any value for crafting.

This version seems like a compromise between the two. It also allows for roleplaying methods of acquiring treasure other than the murderhobo method.

Overall, I like it, with one caveat:

Right now, we are pooling our wealth and drawing money out of the central pool as we need it. Currently the amount of wealth individual characters have widely varies. Once our levels get a bit higher and the price of individual items becomes a smaller fraction of our individual total wealth this may not be necessary any more.

But until we reach that point, would it be possible for there to be a "common bank" that all players use?

-----

As far as item crafting, craft wondrous item is too good a feat not to have in the party, and for Numalar specifically, there are lots of wondrous items in Ultimate Equipment that make playing a spontaneous caster a lot more viable - the CRB items are mostly aligned towards wizards and clerics.

For roleplaying reasons I would want a lot of items to be made by Numalar even if I had to pay full price for them. Also I had always planned to make unique items not covered in the books. As long as those are possible I am fine.

Also @Bank: you mentioned that it should be stated previously what we want. Could we not also keep it as a "capital" on hand? Say I want a belt of physical perfection...but before the necessary bank has been set aside, we actually find one somewhere. Surely there would be other takes in this case, but could I freely swap towards something else before the bank is filled? Or is the choice locked in so we can't suddenly go pick up exactly what we needed in the room over there where we overlooked a chest previously.

And, more importantly: How about "upgrading"...one big deal about crafting ourselves would be the ability to make that belt+2 into a belt+4, or add another + to the weapon once we could afford that.

It would seem weird to "have" a +3 mithril chain shirt, then work from the ground up on a +4 mithril chain shirt, but equally weird to "bank" the old one to "find" the new one, or would banked capital magically vanish and the item simply grows stronger as it is more closely attuned to us?

Thats just 2 aspects that came to mind, after I had some time thinking about the concept.

While we are on the subject of loot...

Treasure! (new updated list)

Mephit Dining Room
Small mwk crossbow - Posh ?
Small mwk wavy dagger - Numalar (for now... will sell it when we return to town)
Small mwk wavy dagger - Posh ?
Oil of bless weapon - Alia
Oil of bless weapon - Scarlet
wand of enlarge person (32 charges) - Numalar ?
wand of enlarge person (2 charges) - Scarlet ?
wand of detect magic - Alia
scroll of invisibility - Alia ?
scroll of scorching ray - Numalar ?
pearl of power - Alia
masterwork breastplate - Sell (bank)
Coin: 55 gp, 12 sp
Gems: 375 gp (nobody made the appraise roll though)

Stuff from the Jelly encounter:
masterwork heavy mace - Zokon
jar with gelatinous serving - Alia (if it still paralyzes this would make a cool splash weapon!)
potion of enlarge person - Scarlet
potion of reduce person - Zokon

New Stuff From Throne Room
Masterwork Breastplate Sell (bank)
Masterwork Chainmail Sell (bank)
Masterwork Club - ? Anyone need a blunt Masterwork weapon?
Masterwork Longbow - Sell (bank) - thought this would go to Scarlet but she already got a masterwork composite bow
Oil of magic stone - ? Who uses a sling the most?
Oil of magic weapon - ?
potion of shield of faith - Scarlet ? Numalar gave Scarlet his, but Scarlet is the most likely to have an AC problem I think.
potion of touch of the sea - ? Lets you swim
potion of inflict moderate wounds - Sell (bank)
Coin: 28 gp, 12 sp, 14 cp
Miscellaneous sundry items (could go in the party pile or we could give them to Naleksa)

There are still a few unclaimed things. Have a look if you want anything.

What noooo.. not my intention or need... your character is fine... i'm gonna start shooting people if this becomes a worrying about offending people game.. as none of the behaviour is even close... I was joking as well..

Yes Numalar I agree with what you have posted .. good job

@Zokon: My character may be fine ;) But I know I, as a person, can be obnoxious, at times. ^_^ The apology was only half-serious, too ;)

@Loot distribution: Looks good to me. No more claims here.

On the points of Item creation, I have a suggestion I got from a friend of mine who created KM for 6 people. Magic Item creation is quite a pain in KM as you can end up with groups walking into book 2 with full +1 equipment if you don't police it in some way.

Houserules I had:

The 10% Magic Item Rule-(Via Alex K)

When looking for magical items for sale, if the cost of a given item is less than 10% of the cities base value (590GP at the moment), a roll is not required to find one.

100% Cost Crafting- (Via Alex K)

Crafting magical items gives no discount (except for scrolls, potions and wands).

Note: These items are the exception because they are limited use unlike others.

The Kingdom-City Ratio House Rule (thanks Nethys)

The number of cities a kingdom can support is based off its size. A kingdom may have one city for every 5 size (min. 1). A kingdom of size 9 or less may only support one city. A kingdom of size 10-14 may have two cities. A kingdom of size 15-19 may have three cities, and so on.

Of course, it's upto you which ones you want to take if any, but I hope these suggestions help :D

While we are on the subject of loot...

Treasure! (new updated list)

Mephit Dining Room
Small mwk crossbow - Posh ?
Small mwk wavy dagger - Numalar (for now... will sell it when we return to town)
Small mwk wavy dagger - Posh ?
Oil of bless weapon - Alia
Oil of bless weapon - Scarlet
wand of enlarge person (32 charges) - Numalar ?
wand of enlarge person (2 charges) - Scarlet ?
wand of detect magic - Alia
scroll of invisibility - Alia ?
scroll of scorching ray - Numalar ?
pearl of power - Alia
masterwork breastplate - Sell (bank)
Coin: 55 gp, 12 sp
Gems: 375 gp (nobody made the appraise roll though)

Stuff from the Jelly encounter:
masterwork heavy mace - Zokon
jar with gelatinous serving - Alia (if it still paralyzes this would make a cool splash weapon!)
potion of enlarge person - Scarlet
potion of reduce person - Zokon

New Stuff From Throne Room
Masterwork Breastplate Sell (bank)
Masterwork Chainmail Sell (bank)
Masterwork Club - ? Anyone need a blunt Masterwork weapon?
Masterwork Longbow - Sell (bank) - thought this would go to Scarlet but she already got a masterwork composite bow
Oil of magic stone - ? Who uses a sling the most?
Oil of magic weapon - ?
potion of shield of faith - Scarlet ? Numalar gave Scarlet his, but Scarlet is the most likely to have an AC problem I think.
potion of touch of the sea - ? Lets you swim
potion of inflict moderate wounds - Sell (bank)
Coin: 28 gp, 12 sp, 14 cp
Miscellaneous sundry items (could...

I'll go with the crossbow and dagger. Both sound good, though I often avoid combat, I'd like to have the dagger if cornered...or if given the surprise.

Also @Bank: you mentioned that it should be stated previously what we want. Could we not also keep it as a "capital" on hand? Say I want a belt of physical perfection...but before the necessary bank has been set aside, we actually find one somewhere. Surely there would be other takes in this case, but could I freely swap towards something else before the bank is filled? Or is the choice locked in so we can't suddenly go pick up exactly what we needed in the room over there where we overlooked a chest previously.

And, more importantly: How about "upgrading"...one big deal about crafting ourselves would be the ability to make that belt+2 into a belt+4, or add another + to the weapon once we could afford that.

It would seem weird to "have" a +3 mithril chain shirt, then work from the ground up on a +4 mithril chain shirt, but equally weird to "bank" the old one to "find" the new one, or would banked capital magically vanish and the item simply grows stronger as it is more closely attuned to us?

Thats just 2 aspects that came to mind, after I had some time thinking about the concept.

Usually if someone finds the stuff by chance before they spend their bank to acquire it they just change their bank purchase. So long as it is reasonable they can turn it into any sort of permanent magical item whenever they want (I'm not opposed to the occasional wand, or scroll of high end spells, but most folks use it for their big ticket items), just don't expect to find your new huge apparatus in some thief's tool belt.

The reason to let me know what you want is so I can seed it appropriately. Most big items show up in the big end of scenario trove common to d&d. Not to say everything will be Excalibur but....

As a rule you cannot convert it into mundane monetary items (like coins, gemstones or jewerly). If you want those items you'll have to haul the 20 suits of half-plate to the market, sell them and go find a jeweler.

It probably wouldn't work with crafting. If you build a suit of magical armor then you've built it and that's that. Remember that crafting items is cheaper than banking them.

Out of all the characters, because of her class and abilities, Alia probably has the least to gain by banking.

There's nothing at all wrong with creating a communal bank.

At work more later.

Just clarifying: I was not refering to "banking" crafted items, which obviously would break the system.
I meant to ask how "upgrading" would be different under this system.

In crafting, I take the item and re-work it, adding another plus.

In banking, ??? Do I need to start banking for the item all over again, or could one bank for an upgrade of existing items, too, and how would that be handled?

@Gaining stuff: Actually it would work out fine for Alia. I am locked into my blade, not using a shield, and only using a bow as backup, so the only thing I would really seriously craft for myself is armor.
At the same time, there's plenty of fancy wondrous items that she feels she needs, but can't make herself.
And, due to their IC-rivalry, would probably not go ask Numalar to make something for her, in the near future. :) So banking could actually be really interesting for her.

A few more clarifications about the "Bank:"

1. When items are sold off to the bank, are they sold for half price in the same way as if they are sold to a merchant?

I assume it would have to. If the bank buys them at full price, and then sells us new items at full price, then this is functionally the same as selling things for half price to a merchant and then crafting items for half price.

2. Is it only items that are found that can be banked?

3. Can the bank be used to buy crafting materials?

If we could "find" the stuff we need then this would make trips back to civilization less necessary.

4. Is the bank only for buying magic items?

A few more things about the loot we found:

If nobody wants the potion of touch of the sea, Numalar will take it, on account of him having the worst swim check in the party.

If we are starting the "bank" right away then Numalar would probably leave the masterwork dagger alone so it can be banked.

Celyne: do you want the masterwork club? (you might want to trade up to a morning star when you get the chance so maybe this can be "banked")

Since Alia and Scarlet got the oils of bless weapon, Zokon, do you want the oil of magic weapon? I reread the spell text and it seems you could use it on a bow.

Anyone want the oil of magic stone?

Wow, there is never anything for oracles is there? Every loot list - everyone gets several items and nothing for poor Celyne... She has like NOTHING of value... The bank system sounds like it would definitely be something beneficial to Celyne because of that alone....

Wow, there is never anything for oracles is there?

Now that Numalar is going to start crafting, is there anything you would want made?

Wow, there is never anything for oracles is there? Every loot list - everyone gets several items and nothing for poor Celyne... She has like NOTHING of value... The bank system sounds like it would definitely be something beneficial to Celyne because of that alone....

Maybe drop a hint or two for GM what you'd consider to be good for oracles?

Bank system or not, maybe if you gave RPGGM an idea of something in the current loot price range(300-1000) that would be great for Oracles to have, things could be arranged?

Depends on the sort of oracle you are. There's the bashy armored sort who have all the luck and then the druidic-type who maybe find some pet food.

Bank Examples

The Twenty Strong (currently a group of four--tough year) defeat a marauding patrol of hobgoblin shock troops. They recover the following treasure. 6 suits of masterwork banded armor, 4 masterwork halberds, 2 masterwork greatswords, and 36 gp.

The party members each decide what if anything they want out of the haul.

The dwarf barbarian in the party quite likes the idea of owning a greatsword and so takes one. The party is low on pocket change and to a person decides to divide the 36 gp among themselves evenly. No one else claims any treasure banking the majority of the spoils.

In-game this would be reflected by defeating the hobgoblins, but not bothering to loot them. The rational being that there are time constraints, moral objections, the fact that all the stuff was ruined in the battle, or some other reason.

The remaining treasure is added together and the non-monetary items are sold as usual for 50% their purchase price.

[400(6) + 310(4) + 350]/2 = [2400 + 1240 + 350]/2 = [3990]/2 = 1,995 gp

The dwarf barbarian's trophy is figured back into the total haul at full price because he is keeping it.

1,995 + 350 = 2,345

And then the total haul is divided evenly among the group members.

2,345/2 = 586.25 or 586 gp, 2 sp, 5 cp each

The cost of the kept greatsword comes out of the barbarian's share. So each of the other members of the party gain a banked amount of treasure equal to 586 gp, 2 sp, 5 cp, while the barbarian gets a new sword and 236 gp, 2 sp, 5 cp worth of bank. Everyone gets 9 gold coins.

==========

The weirdly-built cleric-monk with a pet dog decides it's time to cash in some of his bank for a pair of boots of striding and springing. He currently has 8,000 gp in the bank. The boots have a regular retail cost of 5,500 gp. Looking it over he realizes he could use a boost to his AC and decides he'd like a ring of protection +1 as well. He runs it by the GM and the GM places the items into the game. Being an evil individual the GM places them on the scenario's villainous boss, Bluto Sans Pite the Antipaladin. The big bad also has +2 plate mail armor, a +2 dirty bastard sword, and a pair of boots of levitation. Since the villain can't wear two pairs of boots the GM declares that one pair are kept in his foot locker. When Sir Bluto is defeated but before the treasure is allotted the weirdly-built cleric-monk with a pet dog gets the ring of protection +1 and boots of springing and striding. The remaining haul is divided like the example above.

If the Twenty Strong do not defeat the antipaladin or he escapes, the weirdly-built cleric-monk with a pet dog might still be able to acquire his boots from the antipaladin's foot locker, or might have to wait to acquire his treasure from Bluto the next time they cross paths or if that's not in the near-future cards some other significant encounter.

Once he has his items the weirdly-built cleric-monk with a pet dog would be left with 500 gp in his bank plus of course whatever bank was gained along the way (like for instance the antipaladin's gear).

A few more clarifications about the "Bank:"

1. When items are sold off to the bank, are they sold for half price in the same way as if they are sold to a merchant?

I assume it would have to. If the bank buys them at full price, and then sells us new items at full price, then this is functionally the same as selling things for half price to a merchant and then crafting items for half price. YES

2. Is it only items that are found that can be banked? YES

3. Can the bank be used to buy crafting materials?

If we could "find" the stuff we need then this would make trips back to civilization less necessary. USUALLY NOT - the system is meant to grant the PC an already-made item that they want and/or could not easily acquire (for instance: unique or exotic weapons or armor, something that would take too much time to craft, or require spells that a crafter might not have easy access to).

4. Is the bank only for buying magic items? PRETTY MUCH YES - most other items (masterwork items, alchemical items, kits, etc....) are easy enough to acquire. That said no one has ever used the bank system on a scroll or potion either.

Posh, don't forget to level up.

Scarlet will take the

Level 4?

And yes i'll take that there oil of magic weapon.

GM Magic Weapon spell, do I have to cast it on ammo for my shots to count as magical or is on the bow fine?

Well, heads up: I'll be travelling tonight to both my own and my SO's family in turn, over the weekend, inmediately followed by a work trip until next tuesday evening.

I should be able to post, but irregulary. I appreciate if you feel you can wait for me, but if I seem to delay a scene, do feel free to bot me.

@Zokon: Nope, several people are not leveled to 3 yet(partially or completely.)

Celyne could benefit from a headband that adds to charisma, belt that adds to dex and con... can you craft these types of things, Numalar? Also, magical barding for the cat, and or bracers of armor for her or the cat...or both... longarm bracers for the cat, ioun stones are always handy, and there are a lot of cheap (ie cracked) ones that add to skill that she could use well.

As an aside, just because there are not a lot of things that benefit a spontaneous caster incredibly well, doesn't mean she should be this far behind others in WBL... that's not exactly equitable. I mean so far, the ONLY magic items she's got in her possession is a party treasure item that she is carrying - the cure light wounds wand. That's nowhere near wbl for a 3rd lvl character.

The life of spontaneous casting is full of disappointments, as you watch prepared casting get goodies like Pearls of Power. I've seen Sorcerers and Oracles just sit on piles of money until they get a headband of Charisma +2.

Bracers of Armor don't help Oracles, right? Since you have armor already? At least Sorcerers can spend money buffing their defenses.

The life of spontaneous casting is full of disappointments, as you watch prepared casting get goodies like Pearls of Power. I've seen Sorcerers and Oracles just sit on piles of money until they get a headband of Charisma +2.

Bracers of Armor don't help Oracles, right? Since you have armor already? At least Sorcerers can spend money buffing their defenses.

Forgotten a name, but there is a equivalent I've seen. Same price I believe, but for spontaneous casters instead of prepared.

She doesn't HAVE to wear armor if she gets bracers that exceed the ac bonus of the armor she can wear.

To be fair, all the things you mentioned far exceed the value of the objects found so far. Significantly so.

I think Bracers that exceed a reasonable armors AC Bonus exceed the combined total party wealth at full value.

So you may need to be a bit more patient before banking pays off for these items.

yes I know... but cracked ioun stones are pretty cheap.. or I can wait.. but the banking system seems to be the only way Celyne might eventually get something she can use.

To be fair, all the things you mentioned far exceed the value of the objects found so far. Significantly so.

Yes, I was going to point this out. We don't really have enough cash to make those yet.

But yes, Numalar can make headbands and belts that enhance ability scores. I imagine these will be in demand for everyone. A +2 belt or headband will cost 2,000 gp in materials to make.

Yes, I can make cracked Ioun stones. They are good low cost items.

As for armor, a +5 mithral chain shirt will cost 26,100 and offer +9 to AC, while +8 bracers of armor will cost 64,000 and offer +8 to AC. The main advantage of the bracers is that they don't impede your DEX whereas the chain shirt has a max dex bonus of 6. Since you can wear armor the shirt is probably the way to go. Bracers are mainly for classes that can't wear armor, like monks and wizards.

You can also use a shield. If you get a buckler shield then you can put a weapon in your shield hand and still have a free hand to cast a spell. Then when you are done with the spell you switch hands again. If you do get a shield you may want to switch to thrown weapons for your ranged attacks, since they only require one hand.

Often oracles are second-line fighters, since they can use medium armor and shields and are 3/4 BAB. You don't really have great scores for that but you can still use the gear.

You can also think about getting stuff for Luna. BTW giving a cat an Ioun Stone would be hilarious. :)

Okay, guys... nobody wanted the oil of magic stone or the masterwork club so they are going on the sell pile.

I'm organizing this by person so it's easy to find what you are claiming:

Treasure! (final list)

Oil of bless weapon - Alia
wand of detect magic - Alia
scroll of invisibility - Alia
pearl of power - Alia
jar with gelatinous serving - Alia (if it still paralyzes this would make a cool splash weapon!)

Small mwk wavy dagger - Numalar (for now... I will sell it when we return to town)
scroll of scorching ray - Numalar
wand of enlarge person (32 charges) - Numalar
potion of touch of the sea - Numalar

Small mwk crossbow - Posh
Small mwk wavy dagger - Posh

Oil of bless weapon - Scarlet
wand of enlarge person (2 charges) - Scarlet
potion of enlarge person - Scarlet
potion of shield of faith - Scarlet

masterwork heavy mace - Zokon
potion of reduce person - Zokon
Oil of magic weapon - Zokon

To Sell or Bank
Masterwork Breastplate x 2 (sell for 350)
Masterwork Chainmail (sell for 150)
Masterwork Club (sell for 150)
Masterwork Longbow (sell for 187.5)
Oil of magic stone (sell for 25)
potion of inflict moderate wounds (sell for 25)

Coin: 83 gp, 24 sp, 14 cp
Gems: 375 gp (nobody made the appraise roll though)

Miscellaneous sundry items (could go in the party pile or we could give them to Naleksa)

One caveat: We should exclude party-use items from the distribution mechanics.

Eg. you listed the wand of enlarge person with Numalar currently, but it's hardly the way that he claimed it for himself, as a personal-use treasure.

It was given to him because it is too good to sell, and due to his riding dog, he is most likely to have a full-round action available to actually use it to buff someone.

But it would be unfair to hold this against him monetarily/personal funds-affecting.

I am only pointing this out because there may be a number of things where this becomes important...Wands of Cure Light Wounds are one aspect, other utility items may count as well, and some thing may, depending on party decision.(e.g. if I eventually get a magical smithing hammer of craftyness, thats a personal equipment decision by me, but since I plan to outfit the whole party, I may be able to afford it earlier if it's a pool item rather than reducing my personal funds singularily.)

Otherwise it looks good to me.

Okay guys, I've updated the Party Loot page.

Right now the individual wealth amounts are (not counting starting gear):

Alia: 1634
Celyne: 784
Numalar: 615
Posh: 812
Scarlet: 1652
Zokon: 1267

Party Total: 6764
Party Average: 1127.33

I thought Alia's pearl of power would put her at the top of the list but Scarlet has 4 masterwork weapons.

The discrepancies between the casters and the martials (counting Alia as a martial) is pretty normal for most games since masterwork armor and weapons are the most common permanent items at low levels.

One caveat: We should exclude party-use items from the distribution mechanics.

I absolutely agree.

We agreed before not to count the value of consumables as part of our wealth since once they are consumed they are gone (and also it is more work). So these figures do not include any of that. But a quick count of scrolls and potions and wands and magic arrows on my list gives me 2681 gp for those (between everyone). I don't have a figure for the wand of CLW because I don't know how many charges are left, but I know we have used quite a few.

We also have 1656 gp in liquid wealth (coin, etc.)
We have 911 gp in stuff that can be sold or banked.

BTW, I have no interest in counting the value of everyone's arrows and tents and trail rations and so forth; this already took a couple hours and I only have so much time. The stuff here also does not include people's starting wealth.

So the grand total of party wealth on my sheet is:
_6764 +
_2681 +
_1656 +
__911 =
12012 (or 2002 per person average). This is not counting the CLW wand.

Expected wealth for a 3rd level character is 3000 gp. So we are way behind. But crafting items allows us to "double our money" in a sense, because you can pay 500 gp for an item that is worth 1000 gp. So perhaps crafting will help address this problem. Likewise, crafting can also normalize the difference between characters.

If anyone has stuff that they no longer need and wish to sell, let me know and I'll add it to the list. Numalar's wealth includes a masterwork dagger but I'll sell that when we get to a town, for example. If I ever really need a masterwork weapon then I am screwed anyway. Scarlet: do you really need that masterwork battleaxe? You already have a masterwork longsword, shortsword, and bow.

Selling stuff for half price does mean that the value of our belongings will go down a bit if we are paying full price for stuff later on. But there is a lot of masterwork stuff that we have because it's "what we found" instead of what someone specifically wanted. A masterwork cold iron morning star is a lot more useful than a masterwork club, despite only costing 16 gp more.

If there's a potion or scroll still on the list that you know you have used already, let me know and I'll cross it off.

@ Celyne & Posh:

One item you should consider is the page of spell knowledge. Really good for a spontaneous caster, and not too expensive to make.

The runestone of power is also useful but a little more pricy.

Interesting tidbit: Runestones of power are not "once per day", but they recharge "24 hours after used"...I think it's popular to handwaive that, but technically, one would need to keep track on when they've been used :)