Sorry if I find your explanation hard to believe. Your not in any danger you couldn't easily avoid, and you were given ample warning. This is no different then a wizard with a slash spell, when he lobs it people get out of the way.
and no it makes no sense unless you character is blind because the golem has always shown independence, dismantling Byrons own crossbow, publicly embarrassing him, and even outright telling him what to do. The dynamic has been clearly displayed that the golem is the mother, so your characters beef could only be with her. If you attacked Byron you would be metaing the worst way.
your the one putting yourself at ridiculous risk. Not only by staying in the area where you would be in trap rang after the explicit warning but right by the rope, horrible tactically and aren't you a ranged combatant?
your controlling attitude also is abrasive. Your not the GM. You try to tell others how to play and that is not OK. I'm sorry if this doesn't work well with the kind of game style you like to play but it is the kind I play and the GM allowed me in knowing it was the kind of thing I would do.
refusing to get out of the way is you putting yourself needlessly in danger. I won't rewrite my plans ever single time you don't feel like giving even the slightest accommodation or you will just be railroading me the entire game like you have already tried too.
also, good luck in trying to kill me. You realize that the preistist would stop you right?
Also Zanics position was contingent on him needing to be there in order to make the check which isn't necessary, so he would be back with the rest of us. You are literally the only one placing yourself in danger. The traps won't kill you, the decending mob will.
In fact it looks like you aren't even directly in the hall or are an easy 5 foot step from being clear
Except that you have a glowing rune on your forehead that matches your eidolon's like every other summoner on Golarion. And I believe Rasim saw you fight rats where you summoned an eagle without 004B present and then re-summoned it later. Byron can think that 004B is a different person, but it's pretty obvious that it's an eidolon. The rules are set up so that summoners with their eidolons summoned are obviously that.
***
Re:The current in-game situation:
I think there's confusion about the order of events and that probably caused this whole kerfluffle.
Dolarre set up the situation here. He said you could go first, and then you said "Byron sprints forward, magically glowing torch in one hand. Hoping to get to the rope before whoever arrived at it manages to get to the bottom."
Then in this post Dolarre described you arriving back in the rope room. That's why I put you there on my drawing. That's how you saw the rope moving. That was the surprise round.
Then Round 1 begins and we go by initiative.
Initiative order:
Rasim
Graxzos
Zanac
Byron
???
Tinder
Orcen
0042B
I go before you. So I ran up to where I am before you retreated, said your warning and rearmed the trap.
In fact, Graxos and Zanac will both get to take their actions before you run back into the hallway/do the trap/warn people in round 1. So there could be up to three people in the hallway before you do that, not giving us time to get out of the way. That's why it's a problem. Especially since the ??? thing goes right after you. You could be trapping me and Zanac in there with whatever it is. Graxos declared he's waiting, but I think he also doesn't realize he acts before Byron's warning takes place, and well before 004B starts fiddling the trap.
If you were going first, and there was no one already in the hallway and you said that, it would be different. That would be providing a warning, not endangering other PCs.
But then there's this post, which confuses me. Did it take Rasim's round one action to run up to the rope room, or not? If not, did Byron's running back to the tapestry room take place pre-Round 1? If that's the case then the whole thing is moot because Rasim wouldn't advance past the tapestry room if Byron's trap/warning thing went off before Rasim acted in round 1. It would be a good plan then, because no one would be in the hallway. It also appears several players have different ideas of where they are than Dolarre did in that post. What's the situation, DM?
Class rules are not Neccicarally widely known by PC's, especially Level 1 combatants gathered from foreign lands. And even if you did know the rules you can plainly see that mine is more independent and is in charge. This is a shocking amount of meta knowledge that you are pouring into your in character, especially for someone with absolutely no knowledge arcana, or any other spell-casting related knowledge. You should have no idea the difference between people who use magic, much less the in depth mechanics that most summoners would never share. The setting doesn't even have a description for Summoners showing how rare they are to the area.
No matter how you cut it you are using meta knowledge to justify an in game action. If you wanted your character to be knowledgeable on the subject then you should have invested skill points to know it, not just assume you can import any knowledge you want.
My action was contingent. I did state that if he saw anything that he would change action. The GM made it clear that we could see the rope swaying, this followed my action to change course. I was going to rearm the trap but the GM stated how hard that would be so I opted for hiding instead. My golem who was one round behind me (like the rest of you) was going to immediately set the trap, and give the warning using the knowledge that we share via mind link.
If you read the descriptions of the perception checks it is clear that we did not need to be close to the rope to make them, in fact none of them include a description for looking up the hole, inferring that even the GM thought that none of us ran directly up to it.
I'm not trying to justify any in character actions. I didn't take any in character actions against Byron, and I won't. None of my in-character actions have been meta in any way, and they never will be.
The situation is anything but clear. But, if you're not rearming the trap, then there is nothing to argue about. I think that if 004B could rearm the trap, before any of us went into the hallway, that would actually be great. If that's the situation let's try it. If not and Byron and 004B are going to hide, that's also great. I have no problem with that (not trying infer that you need my approval). Rasim is trying to hide too. If no PCs are hurting PCs, then everything is 100% kosher with me and I'd suggest again that we let it rest and move on.
0042B still is rearming the trap, nothing has changed.
You will not dictate action, that is for the GM. We don't even know the results of the rearming or how long it will take.
You are claiming that you character would understand the mechanics of how summoners work and would blame Byron if something happened. This is a passive aggressive threat, one which you cannot justify in-game. I was simply pointing that out.
Technically it was more than just Rasim who asked about shifting character build but when you said you didn't want to we said "as you wish lol."
If you read the descriptions of the perception checks it is clear that we did not need to be close to the rope to make them, in fact none of them include a description for looking up the hole, inferring that even the GM thought that none of us ran directly up to it.
As for this, it doesn't really matter to me if the DM said it was "required" or not. There was simply no way in-game to see the hole (unless the hallway slopped in a way I didn't know about) without being in the doorway or in the next room. Unless the DM says otherwise of course. Zanac was in the doorway at first but then he saw/heard about the trap so he's staying where he is. Out of the line of fire of the darts but hidden in the room. With any luck someone can bait the creature into the hallway, trigger the trap, and then I can come in behind it for sneak attacks. That's the plan anyways assuming the beastie doesn't spot me.
And technically speaking, Byron is correct. Without, perhaps, a Knowledge Arcana check or a previous background in the arcane arts Rasim (nor Zanac, Graxos, etc) would have any idea what's special about a summoner other than he summons things. As far as Zanac is concerned, the golem is closer to Byron's familiar than summoned being and so for in-game purposes he's treating them as individuals with the ability to think separately since that's what they've been acting out.
I said whoa!!!
Pause.
Stop posting.
This is getting out of hand. Both Byron and Rasim are talking past each other. I will give clear guidelines about some norms in a bit, but constantly re-explaining the same reasons for your actions, followed by ascribing motives to the other, followed by personal attacks may be normal for message boards, BUT I WILL NOT HAVE IT IN MY GAME.
I expect someone to be called Hitler in a moment . . .
If there is a problem between characters, at the first sign it is becoming heated - STOP POSTING - and bring it to me. That is partly what I'm for.
Now give me a moment to swim through the misunderstandings and growing bad blood and figure out where I did not communicate my expectations clearly enough.
Blame me for this cluster-something and sit on you hands for a bit, until I sort it out.
Okay. First order of business - no one post anything else here or in the gamethread until I give the go ahead. If you disagree with something I post strongly enough that you must be heard, send it to me by private message.
The rest will be in no particular order of importance.
Rasim,
Much of this could have been avoided if I had a good map to show folks. I don't know how to do that. In fact, I wasn't sure it was possible until you posted your example. Could you send me a tutorial on how it was done by private message? I think it will help in a lot of things and be a boon to the game as a whole. I'm a quick study. Thanks in advance.
The word meta is an insult. At least it is being used as one or being perceived as one, probably both. Don't use it any more. It stirred up what should have been just a disagreement.
In fact, under no circumstances should anyone correct someone for playing their character or the game incorrectly. An occasional rules reminder is okay, but nothing more substantial. No one should say a build is incorrect, no one should say 'don't do that or say that because you are using player knowledge not character knowledge.' I will correct such behavior if needed. If it impacts you, PM me and bring it to my attention. Accusing the other players of 'wrong fun' is the only wrong fun I recognize.
Interparty conflict will not be tolerated. If you cause hp damage to another party member on purpose, or take an action you know will cause them damage, you are done. I don't care how much it is what your character would do. The damage will never be applied and the offending character will be killed messily in as creative a way as I can come up with. If you control multiple characters, all will fall into the grain thresher; I don't care which character did it.
All betrayals will come through NPCs <smile>
Now, accidents happen. Mind control happens. Bad rolls which affect other characters happen. And if someone says, "Hit me! I can take it!" That is all well and good. But one person's fun cannot come at the expense of someone else in a collaborative game. Not if I am running it.
And for that matter, check your alignments. I don't see any evil. Sacrificing a comrade, for whatever reason, is an evil act, even to save someone else. Chaotic neutral is not amoral or crazy, and neutral in front of good does not mean good except when its inconvenient.
Now sometimes your character will say "I'm going to kill you" That is fine. Just throw in an ooc (not really) so I will put down the lightning strike.
The sequence of events
Byron gets the alarm, rushes forward and gives warning
He gets there one round ahead and gets an action, which was to stop and turn back
Everyone else arrives in initiative order. This was all happening relatively simultaneously. There were enough lights moving around that I assumed their was light to see the shaft chamber at some point to make the perception checks, plus the stampede ended with a thrown torch into the room from Orcen. Basically I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt on light. Declare your location when I open posting back up.
In the shaft room
Just inside the trapped hallway
halfway into the trapped hallway
Just outside the trapped hallway (in the tapestry room)
Fully in the Tapestry room - this is where Sebti is.
We will rewind to this point and take actions in initiative order from here. 0042B has yet to touch the trap, though it has warned its intent so people can move (talking is a free action). Rasim has expressed his dissent for this plan. 0042B will not pull the trigger on the trap with people in the crossfire - It would be such a bad example for her baby - BUT messing with it might make it go off anyway. Everyone is aware of this, so go ahead and dive for cover or risk darts. Orcen has just chucked a lit torch into the shaft room as the last bit of his last round.
Rasim, in fact anyone, can be pissed at Byron for 0042B's actions. "That fool gnome has got to learn to control his golem." While they might not know the specifics of summoners, assuming the construct should be controlled by the PC race gnome is an easy assumption to make. If that is not the case for Byron - so be it - it is still what most people would assume.
Okay. My lunch hour is over . . . not what I wanted to do the entire time . . . more possibly later.
Alright, almost done.
Zanac is right, you needed to be at least halfway down the hallway to make the perception check.
I think that is the last adjudication I need to make. Tinder and Graxzos' statements to Byron stand (assumed free action response to 0042B's statements). Any actions beyond that please post in blocks.
A new round has begun.
Rasim, Graxzos, Zanac, Byron post in any order you like. Everyone hold off until ??? gets to go.
It should go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway. The previous conversation about who is playing wrong/poorly/meta/unfairly/etc. is OVER.
Let's get back to something fun.
Post away.
[edit] Oh, missed one . . . rounds to rearm trap for 0042B miss the roll by more than 5 and it goes off hitting those in the hallway which will include 0042B (must be in the hallway to disarm)
Thanks Zanac for the google docs suggestion! In campaign info is now a map!
That is all.
Totally can't edit the doc from my end.
And let the dice roll!
Map looks good. Only suggestion I have would be to allow people to move their icons independently. I think if you open the doc for editing by everyone it should work out well enough.
Also, do we get another action or are we simply redoing the old action? Because Zanac would do the same thing: hide in the shadows. Only thing I might change would be climbing 20' up the wall since he has a climb speed and I assume the walls are climbable since that bug thing just climbed in xD. Correct me if I'm wrong, however xD
I'll wait on Orcen's action until his turn, then, though does this reset negate his thrown torch? And he'll be just outside the trapped hallway (in the tapestry room).
Replay the action please.
Orcen, your torch was thrown at the end of your arrival action.
The sequence of events
Byron gets the alarm, rushes forward and gives warning
He gets there one round ahead and gets an action, which was to stop and turn back
Everyone else arrives in initiative order. This was all happening relatively simultaneously. There were enough lights moving around that I assumed their was light to see the shaft chamber at some point to make the perception checks, plus the stampede ended with a thrown torch into the room from Orcen. Basically I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt on light. Declare your location when I open posting back up.
In the shaft room
Just inside the trapped hallway
halfway into the trapped hallway
Just outside the trapped hallway (in the tapestry room)
Fully in the Tapestry room - this is where Sebti is.We will rewind to this point and take actions in initiative order from here. 0042B has yet to touch the trap, though it has warned its intent so people can move (talking is a free action). Rasim has expressed his dissent for this plan. 0042B will not pull the trigger on the trap with people in the crossfire - It would be such a bad example for her baby - BUT messing with it might make it go off anyway. Everyone is aware of this, so go ahead and dive for cover or risk darts. Orcen has just chucked a lit torch into the shaft room as the last bit of his last round.
This is where we are starting from.
Rasim,
Much of this could have been avoided if I had a good map to show folks. I don't know how to do that. In fact, I wasn't sure it was possible until you posted your example. Could you send me a tutorial on how it was done by private message? I think it will help in a lot of things and be a boon to the game as a whole. I'm a quick study. Thanks in advance.
Certainly. I could make much much prettier maps without needing to draw them on my tablet if I had access to the PDFs. But I'll teach you how to do it. It's not difficult, though there might be a small learning curve at first. I don't have time today, but I will write something tonight or tomorrow for you.
Edit: Looks like you figured it out already :)
Actually, I think I can help enhance our map experience a bit more. If you download the free software MapTool, you can use it to add coordinates to the map.
Download the software, install it, open it. Screenshot the map from the PDF like you would for google maps. Then go into MapTool and go to Map->New Map. Set the background to black or white, and then hit the map button and browse to the image you clipped from the PDF. Then hit ok.
Now go to Map->Adjust Grid and roll your mouse wheel to change the grid size to match that on the image. Then go to View->show coordinates. Then drag the edges of the whole MapTool Windows window so you can only see the part of the map you want us to see. Then File->Export->Screenshot As. Pick player view, and current view and then export it somewhere. Don't make it too big though. You can only upload images less than 2 MB to google drive.
Here's an example of a final product from one of my games. Except I put visible line blocking in the walls. They can all see the same thing right now so there is only one map. If they had different views there would be different maps for each PC. Thus their name labels on the side.
That's probably the coolest thing you can do with MapTool, the lighting and individual PC vision. But that takes more work. I taught myself using Youtube tutorials. Once you learn it, it's an invaluable GMing tool. My real life group uses it with a projector to have a giant full color battlemap on the wall while we're playing. Never need to worry about having the right mini, or minis at all. Just google an image of the right monster and plop it in there.
Since we are now following initiative I will wait to post until after you post ???'s actions, correct?
-.- I take it even when not in combat I have to explicitly state I'm taking 10s. Bleh. Old habit of assuming mutual understanding is a bad habit. Also because I have a climb speed I maintain Dex even while on a wall
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.
Also I assume it managed to break a 23 stealth check at some point? I was using the old rolls from the first post for perception and stealth.
Zanac, i assumed that you didnt take ten because you would have only gotten a 19, not enought to climb a smooth stone vertical wall. When you ran to the room, i assumed you broke stealth. If not, you will arrive in a round or two because you are moving half speed. Plus your chosen place to climb was in the direct path of the scorpion. Stealth only goes so far. You bump into a guy, he knows you're there - even if its a bug.
Missed the dex to ac for climb speed though . . . Thanks. Ill try to remember that for later.
Ah, see that's one reason why I usually ask many questions before posting. I didn't know it was smooth, I assumed it was hewn rock not smoothed. If I missed that description that's my fault and thus made a wrong assumption. Oh well.
And you're right stealth would only go so far, however I didn't attempt to hide until the beastie crawled into the room so I would have entered the room at the same time as the bug. As you say, however, running into each other defeats the effect xD.
Stealth in PF doesn't work like stealth in World of Warcraft or many other video games like a lot of people assume it does.
Unless you have cover or concealment stealth does nothing but make you quiet. The only way you would have had cover or concealment while clinging to a wall is if the room was dark and no one in it had darkvision. Otherwise, as soon as you enter something's line of sight it sees you automatically. Same goes for me of course. I did roll stealth on the off chance that whatever it was couldn't see in the dark, but I have no expectation of actually being hidden.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
I presume you'll be taking Vanishing Trick ASAP, Zanac?
That is the plan, yes. I also know the stealth rules are different in tabletop gaming vs video gaming cause that's where I plan on taking this character xD. Also the wall I attempted to hide against I thought was covered in shadow which would have counted as concealment. However looking at the map again I realized that a torch thrown into the center of the room as was done would be able to cast light to all corners of the room, rending the point moot xD.
Yarp. Zanac will be super badass once he gets that sweet swift action invis though. I've seen ninjas like him do sick amounts of damage two hand power attacking with a katana from invis. Or are you planning on a shuriken flurry build or something?
Shuriken flurry. I'm still attempting to figure out if when attacking from invisibility all attacks thrown count as sneak attacks. The way I perceive it they would but obviously most people (and RAW if I'm not mistaken) disagree so i have to work around that.
My plan is to acquire a ring of blinking (or some other way of reliably casting blink on myself) so that my opponent is denied his Dex against more than just my first attack, thus sneak attacks on everything xD
Correction: Old blinking rules vs PF blinking rules. Apparently they get to maintain Dex to AC...bleh. Gonna need a new plan xD.
Edit: Oooo. Apparently edge cases of fog/smoke means I can stealth up to edge of the fog/smoke and throw without having to face concealment issues due to the ability to sort of stick one's head outta the fog long enough to throw before ducking back in. Convenient xD.
I normally run it that all your attacks in the round you come out of invisibility count as you being invisible. However I think technically by RAW, it should only be the first attack in the chain.
That's always been my preference as well considering the fact that by the time the first attack hits the others are most likely right behind so the defender wouldn't have much of a chance to defend. But ah well RAW says otherwise.
For the record GM: I did try retconning and saying I was going to be staying out with Tinder to prevent him from being the truly only target there. If that's not OK then I'll keep that in mind for future reference I just wanted to make sure you noticed xD
Also: Tinder is out of the way of the darts, correct? He was in the shaft room as far as I was aware lol.
Let me look back at the posts again.
Done, last post in gameplay edited.
Yay! Thank you GM :D
Lol, glad I didn't see your original post. I bet it was ugly, haha. Sorry to leave you hanging Zanac. I recommend GTFO. :)
Yeah the two hits that I managed to dodge hit you xD. You'd be right at 0 I think. And no worries I'd planned on staying around until you got out anyways. I'm pretty good at escaping :). And I think I get to move before the beasties do anyways so it's all good.
Send those scorpions on down to me! I can take 'em! :P
...out of curiosity, I assume that the darts fire rapidly enough that I would still risk getting hit if I set off the trap by running over the plate and through the doors? Usually that's how this kind of thing works.
Depends on if the GM rules if you're "ready" for them you can dive out of the way or something similar.
I act right after them, so I think my activating the trap using Mage Hand is the best way if we set them up properly.
Sorry guys. Brutal last couple of days, still a few to go. Will post as able.
Rasim did anything ever come of your linnorm kings campaign? That was a very interesting recruitment thread, it would be a shame for all of that work to go to waste.
Rasim did anything ever come of your linnorm kings campaign? That was a very interesting recruitment thread, it would be a shame for all of that work to go to waste.
Well, I did narrow it down to one player. But she never finished all the backstory work. Haven't heard from her in a few weeks.
Guess it was too much pre-game work to create a character that epic. Might as well just write a novel.
Ah, that's unfortunate. It amazes me how much time and effort people on these boards put into chargen/recruitment only to have the game completely fizzle in the first week. That's what happened to my first campaign. We didn't make it through the first combat. This is my only active campaign.
Another thing that boggles my mind is how many campaigns some players simultaneously participate in. I just couldn't keep all of those worlds and characters straight.
I really do enjoy the ability to prepare what you want your character to say rather than having to RP on the fly. One huge advantage of pbp over f2f.
I'm actually starting my first f2f campaign as a player as opposed to GM this Saturday. I'm playing an archery cavalier in kingmaker. Very exciting!
I'm currently running another game for people who didn't make the cut on a carrion crown game. My game was supposed to exist in the same world as the first game but my players would be doing adventurer stuff that sets up the events for the other players. But now the other game collapsed and I have to not only try and take on those other players but try to get them all to meet up.
I think that when you join a group you should speak ahead of time for who should take over if you can't continue.
I’m currently running 5 pbps (4 hombrews and a Carrion Crown) and playing in around 8 or 10. Recently I’ve had several games I was in die out. I’ve been PBPing here for about two years and have 60some aliases. Meaning I’ve been in 50+ failed PBPs (some of the aliases never saw play or are/were NPCs). The longest running I’m curretly involved in are one of my homebrews and my Carrion Crown. Third is probably the Rappan Athuk game I’m in, but it’s quite slow.
Sadly the majority of PBPs die eventually.
Running 5 and playing in 8 or 10!? That's simply amazing.
I've had to limit myself to simply participating in 2 PbPs because I have a full-time job and I'm a full-time student in my senior year of college so it gets time consuming. If I start too many PbPs I won't do my schoolwork xD
I'm back! Though my ability to post has been cut back. They blocked Paizo at my workplace, so I can't post on my lunch hour anymore.
New post (though short) in gameplay.