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If a character's Intelligence modifier improves, either through ability score increases every four levels or through a permanent bonus from a Headband of Vast Intelligence, does it result in the sudden and mysterious learning of a new language?
I'm not much interested in an argument about this, and I'm pretty sure I understand how this works, but I need an official (and specific) response from a Paizo staffer in order to either 1) get Hero Lab fixed to reflect the way I believe this works, or 2) add additional languages to many of my PFS characters.
Please mark this post for FAQ inclusion, so we can lay this years-old issue to rest!
Maybe I'm missing out on something, but the intelligence section fairly clearly states:
I didn't follow this up anywhere else though, so perhaps it's contradicted later.You may apply your character's intelligence modifier to:
- The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game...
I think I see Benn Roe's point. What constitutes the start of the game? Does that mean "at 1st level", or "at the time of character creation"?
A level 1 character with a 12 INT is going to have 1 bonus language.
Now let's say you start the game at 10th level. Your character has a 'natural' 20 INT, but that includes the additional ability points you got for 4th and 8th level, as well as a +2 INT bonus from a magic item.
So technically at 1st level he had a 16 INT. Does he start with 3 bonus languages (because he had a 16 INT at 1st level), or does he have 5 (because he 'started the game' with an INT 20)?
If it's the latter, then the assumption would be that adding to INT after the fact actually grants you additional bonus languages - if not immediately, then at the start of a given adventure. But that's not really spelled-out in the rules.
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Knowing more languages is an "other bonus" of having an increased Int bonus. I'll hit FAQ though, since it isn't super clear.
I thought this had been settled already, but as I can't find it I will also mark this a FAQ.
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I am also going to mark this as FAQ, but since I just recently had this same discussion with my DM, I'll put my two cents in.
After my character died I had to make a new one. When I did I was told to start at the current party level (29) and 3,000,000gp for starting wealth. (Long story behind those two outrageous numbers) anyway, when I rolled the new character I found myself perplexed as to which of these things I was supposed to use to determine my languages. Was it my starting stat roll of 18, my adjusted stat of 24 for being lvl 29, or my final stat of 36 after all the gear and tomes I bought was implemented. I talked with my DM and we settled on 24 because it was simply a roleplaying/character background issue. We said that all the "extra" languages were a really learned through prior experiences that theoretically would have been roleplayed during his life between level 1 and level 29. We could say he studied these languages for x amount of time with so and so to learn x language.
This was how we solved it in our game. But it makes sense to me as anything prior to the first character/DM interaction is subject to the players invention of their background.
We did however rule that increasing int. With items would not add languages because magically becoming smarter wouldn't instantly teach you a language, it would be more like increasing mental capacity to comprehend and understand.
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I remember one of the devs (I think it was James Jacobs) stating that every stat block should be the same no matter when that creature got an Int increase.
Say a PC starts with Int 13 at 1st level, and increases it to 14 at 4th. If the bonuses were not retroactive you could tell the difference between this PC and an identical PC who started with 14 Int, and had increased a different stat at 4th. JJ said no, there should be no difference. No-one should have to reverse engineer a high-level PC and try to work out exactly when the stat increased.
@Malachi: I think the thread you're referring to is in regards to uh, a magic item (headband maybe?) that grants INT and skill points. JJ basically said that they changed it so that any benefits derived from a stat increase were all retroactive.
The actual thread was asking if you got additional skill points not only from the INT increase but also from what was listed on the item.
@Malachi: I think the thread you're referring to is in regards to uh, a magic item (headband maybe?) that grants INT and skill points. JJ basically said that they changed it so that any benefits derived from a stat increase were all retroactive.
The actual thread was asking if you got additional skill points not only from the INT increase but also from what was listed on the item.
when it is skill points or hit points or things like that then there is not argument because it is clearly stated in the rules that all increases are retroactive, but languages are different because it is a mater of how proficient you are at doing "x", its a matter of education over time. there are only two ways to learn a language, practice and instruction, and my magic. and since a stat increase is neither, its a grey area.
the number of languages you know at the beginning of the game is basically a mathematical representation in the rules of what your character spent time doing prior to the point at which he decided to become an adventurer.
a rogue with dex 18 and int 11 didn't spend his youth talking to lots of people in multiple languages or sitting in a schoolhouse learning it from a book. he spent it pick pocketing people and hiding in bushes. a wizard with dex 11 and int 18 on the other hand DID spend his youth talking to many people in many languages and learning others from books.
this is the logic behind the math that is represented in the core rulebook, although it is a mere flavor/fluff description, it clearly defines what is meant by the wording of "At the start of the game" and thus why a character can have more languages known than what his int score would allow because they can be added via things like being a druid or growing up in a specific region or city.
languages are part of the story of how your character decided to become an adventurer. its all about back story. if i as a GM asked a player with an int of 18 how he came to speak 4 different languages and he said "i was born with them", i'd probably kick him off my table. but if i asked a player with 13 int why he knew 6 languages and he had a good story behind it, i'd let him keep them all.
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If a character's Intelligence modifier improves, either through ability score increases every four levels or through a permanent bonus from a Headband of Vast Intelligence, does it result in the sudden and mysterious learning of a new language?
I'm pretty sure the "languages you start with" bit at the start of the book is another copy/paste from the two previous editions (3.0 & 3.5) ... sort of like how the write-up for heavy armor implies characters who get it as a class armor proficiency get it as a bonus feat (which lead to some confusion about the fighter ability to retrain feats).
The new, definitely Pathfinder description of gaining a permanent bonus to a stat is pretty inclusive in what it covers. I've bolded the relevant part:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
The word "statistics" is used in the context of the PRD to cover pretty much every notation on a character sheet, ranging from combat statistics to vital statistics like height and age. In fact, if you type "statistics" into the PRD all the hits you get are monster/character stat blocks, which include "languages spoken".
So while the rules don't specifically list bonus languages as a bonus affected by a permanent ability increase, it does end with a general "...and other bonuses" and it does fall under the general heading of "statistics".
Plus, I don't think a couple languages that you can only speak when you're wearing your magical headband is really that gamebreaking.
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Learning an extra language when your Int bonus increases is no more silly than learning a new language when you level up and spend a skill point on Linguistics without having studied at all or even encountering the language in question.
To add emphasis to what Malachi is saying here: do you role-play how your character learned new skills, feats, and spells? If so, great, go ahead and do the same for learning new languages when your int is high enough to gain new languages.
If you don't role-play all that other stuff, and just hand wave it when characters gain a new level, then do the same for languages. Assume the same time they spent learning skills, spells, fighting techniques, etc, they also spent some time learning a new language.
Learning an extra language when your Int bonus increases is no more silly than learning a new language when you level up and spend a skill point on Linguistics without having studied at all or even encountering the language in question.
while i agree with what you said, i disagree only from a roleplaying perspective. while the rules are the rules and that's that, the game is still a roleplaying game and thus the ability to learn a new language after character creation should only occur by means of roleplaying. otherwise there would be no logical purpose for things like the comprehend languages spell. otherwise when someone used said spell, they could argue that after having used it to understand what someone said, they kept that knowledge of that language and from that point on could on some level understand and speak said language without having to cast the spell again. however, if a character actually roleplays sitting down and learning the language from an npc or book, they actually DO retain that knowledge and CAN actually speak it again at a later point. if simply putting on a magical item (that doesn't specifically state it teaches you a new language or lets you comprehend one) gives you the ability to speak another language because your int score goes up, it ultimately defeats the purpose of overcoming an obstacle via roleplaying. Comprehend Languages exists specifically for this purpose, to allow players the ability to get past these obstacles is a timely manner. a party without a spell caster capable of using this spell is forced to do this the hard way, which is why party cohesion exists.
from a strictly rules point of view i suppose that, yes, increasing your INT modifier gives you a new language, but given that the rules exist in order to facilitate the gameplay in both combat and roleplaying, the rules as stated above in the thread should only apply to statistics dealing with combat. and since there is no combat related use to language while in combat except to communicate with your friends in a language you all know and the baddies don't, learning a new language from an increase after initial build seems inappropriate.
Learning an extra language when your Int bonus increases is no more silly than learning a new language when you level up and spend a skill point on Linguistics without having studied at all or even encountering the language in question.To add emphasis to what Malachi is saying here: do you role-play how your character learned new skills, feats, and spells? If so, great, go ahead and do the same for learning new languages when your int is high enough to gain new languages.
If you don't role-play all that other stuff, and just hand wave it when characters gain a new level, then do the same for languages. Assume the same time they spent learning skills, spells, fighting techniques, etc, they also spent some time learning a new language.
i see your point, but the book only states "languages known ... at the start of the game". nowhere else is languages referenced in regards to leveling up as feats/skills/spells/hp/etc are. this can be interpreted as pretty much the same way your height and weight are, in that they don't change unless you roleplay it, or unless it is altered by magical means.
and on a side note, typically the "roleplaying" of learning new skills, feats, and spells when you level is the actual gameplay/combat you do. you learn a new feat because after all that fighting you did, you realized that this new technique you thought about might work, so you (out of game) add it to your skillset and then use it next encounter. as far as spells go, a sorcerer more or less learns his new spells by imagining them up in his head much the same way as i stated with feats. the exception is when he wants to learn one he sees in a book or scroll, in which case, yes, he actually does have to roleplay learning it this way as the rules specifically call for this. a wizard has a spellbook with all these spells in it, and simply has to study them the night prior to using them. he cant cast 9th level spells at level one because his "mana" or magical power isn't high enough, but he has them. and he also can add spells to his spellbook via roleplaying the copying of a spell into his spellbook in a similar manner as the sorcerer and this is also described in the rules.
all of this points back to my point about how the rules are there to facilitate both the combat AND the roleplaying, and those two are not necessarily identical.
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Learning any kind of skill - including linguistics - happens gradually in between levels, and is properly "recognised" when you level up.
exactly what i said, but far simpler wording. thank you Avatar.
while i agree with what you said, i disagree only from a roleplaying perspective. while the rules are the rules and that's that, the game is still a roleplaying game and thus the ability to learn a new language after character creation should only occur by means of roleplaying. otherwise there would be no logical purpose for things like the comprehend languages spell. otherwise when someone used said spell, they could argue that after having used it to understand what someone said, they kept that knowledge of that language and from that point on could on some level understand and speak said language without having to cast the spell again. however, if a character actually roleplays sitting down and learning the language from an npc or book, they actually DO retain that knowledge and CAN actually speak it again at a later point. if simply putting on a magical item (that doesn't specifically state it teaches you a new language or lets you comprehend one) gives you the ability to speak another language because your int score goes up, it ultimately defeats the purpose of overcoming an obstacle via roleplaying. Comprehend Languages exists specifically for this purpose, to allow players the ability to get past these obstacles is a timely manner. a party without a spell caster capable of using this spell is forced to do this the hard way, which is why party cohesion exists.
I'd argue that comprehend languages is for use when the characters don't know some language - there are a lot of languages after all, and it would take half a dozen characters focusing on linguistics skill to cover every language in a party. Even then a DM could throw in a archaic form of a language, or add new languages.
Given that a headband of vast intellect automatically gives a character max skill ranks in a predefined skill - magicall so - not based on any character training - I'm not sure how this is different if a magic item grants a character the ability to understand and speak a new language using - you know... magic :).
from a strictly rules point of view i suppose that, yes, increasing your INT modifier gives you a new language, but given that the rules exist in order to facilitate the gameplay in both combat and roleplaying, the rules as stated above in the thread should only apply to statistics dealing with combat. and since there is no combat related use to language while in combat...
While the game has a heavy combat emphasis, it is not strictly a combat game. Many rules are there for things that exist outside of combat. Many skills (those which as mentioned are granted by a magical headband) are not combat related - but roleplay related. The rules support both aspects. The increases to ability scores increasing both combat and role-playing activities.
Now as I mentioned in my previous post, if you want to role-play the learning of those things, great, more power to you. But from a strict rules basis gaining additional languages is part of the statistics that ability score increases include.
Learning any kind of skill - including linguistics - happens gradually in between levels, and is properly "recognised" when you level up.exactly what i said, but far simpler wording. thank you Avatar.
Which really is what most of us are saying. Most don't role-play those aspects out. It just gets hand waved on the level up.
and on a side note, typically the "roleplaying" of learning new skills, feats, and spells when you level is the actual gameplay/combat you do. you learn a new feat because after all that fighting you did, you realized that this new technique you thought about might work, so you (out of game) add it to your skillset and then use it next encounter. as far as spells go, a sorcerer more or less learns his new spells by imagining them up in his head much the same way as i stated with feats. the exception is when he wants to learn one he sees in a book or scroll, in which case, yes, he actually does have to roleplay learning it this way as the rules specifically call for this. a wizard has a spellbook with all these spells in it, and simply has to study them the night prior to using them. he cant cast 9th level spells at level one because his "mana" or...
This works to a point for verisimilitude, but if I spend a week clearing an ancient crypt of undead horrors, gain a level, and take the feat 'Childlike' or 'Cooperative Crafting' (or any of dozens of other feats not related to fighting, spell casting, undead, or religion) then that makes no sense from a pure story line perspective.
Do you in those cases tell a player, sorry, the time you spent in the crypt doesn't lend itself to gaining that feat, you will have to pick something else?
3.5 (or maybe 3.0) had a section about an optional training rule. Maybe it's still in the CRB. Anyway, it basically required PCs to spend a week or two training before they could apply a new level, even if they had reached the required XP. Instead of just leveling up in the middle of a dungeon, they had to return to town and spend some downtime practicing to earn that new level.
Edit: I bring this up because it might appeal to the OP. I've always handwaved it.
I'd argue that comprehend languages is for use when the characters don't know some language - there are a lot of languages after all, and it would take half a dozen characters focusing on linguistics skill to cover every language in a party. Even then a DM could throw in a archaic form of a language, or add new languages.
you and i are in agreement on this part. i guess i just worded my example poorly.
While the game as a heavy combat emphasis, it is not strictly a combat game. Many rules are there for things that exist outside of combat. Many skills (those which as mentioned are granted by a magical headband) are not combat related - but roleplay related. The rules support both aspects. The increases to ability scores increasing both combat and role-playing activities.
again, completely agreed.
Now as I mentioned in my previous post, if you want to role-play the learning of those things, great, more power to you. But from a strict rules basis gaining additional languages is part of the statistics that ability score increases include.
here however i disagree. this is because, as i said, languages known is more like a characters height and weight then their feats or HP or skills. its not something that you gradually get better at over time unless you are actively doing it (just like skills and fighting), and unless you as a GM and players are actually saying in the game, that you are using "x" language while having idle conversations with each other or npc's how are you gradually increasing it? that would be like saying that a character is getting fatter or shorter simply because time has passed. no, they change in size based on A) a spell effect; or B) they actually roleplayed something that changed their height/weight such as a character always carrying too much weight around or overeating constantly, not not ever eating.
see my point?
and on a side note, typically the "roleplaying" of learning new skills, feats, and spells when you level is the actual gameplay/combat you do. you learn a new feat because after all that fighting you did, you realized that this new technique you thought about might work, so you (out of game) add it to your skillset and then use it next encounter. as far as spells go, a sorcerer more or less learns his new spells by imagining them up in his head much the same way as i stated with feats. the exception is when he wants to learn one he sees in a book or scroll, in which case, yes, he actually does have to roleplay learning it this way as the rules specifically call for this. a wizard has a spellbook with all these spells in it, and simply has to study them the night prior to using them. he cant cast 9th level spells at level one because his "mana" or...This works to a point for verisimilitude, but if I spend a week clearing an ancient crypt of undead horrors, gain a level, and take the feat 'Childlike' or 'Cooperative Crafting' (or any of dozens of other feats not related to fighting, spell casting, undead, or religion) then that makes no sense from a pure story line perspective.
Do you in those cases tell a player, sorry, the time you spent in the crypt doesn't lend itself to gaining that feat, you will have to pick something else?
in all fairness to the fairness to the campaign world as a player i actually would tell my players that if they wanted to take something like 'Craft Magical Arms and Armor' that they would not be able to take it unless they were in a setting that allowed the learning of such a feat. and if they leveled up in the middle of a dungeon crawl i'd tell them that they could add it to their feats list, but that until they returned to town they could not use it. its a fair compromise to both what the player wants, and to not ruining the releplaying aspect of the game.
would you let a player learn Draconic if they had neither heard nor attempted to speak it before in their life simply because they leveled up? i wouldn't, because as far as that player knows, that language doesn't even exist.
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here however i disagree. this is because, as i said, languages known is more like a characters height and weight then their feats or HP or skills. its not something that you gradually get better at over time unless you are actively doing it (just like skills and fighting), and unless you as a GM and players are actually saying in the game, that you are using "x" language while having idle conversations with each other or npc's how are you gradually increasing it? that would be like saying that a character is getting fatter or shorter simply because time has passed. no, they change in size based on A) a spell effect; or B) they actually roleplayed something that changed their height/weight such as a character always carrying too much weight around or overeating constantly, not not ever eating.
see my point?
I see your point, but what you're stating is essentially a house rule. As someone whose first tabletop system was White Wolf's Storyteller, I definitely understand what you're saying - but as far as I'm aware, there is no equivalent mechanical requirement in Pathfinder\D&D. Pathfinder does not require you to 'justify' spending points in a particular area; a GM may enforce such a rule, but then that's a table rule.
As it stands, I also don't see this as a wholly valid argument for a specific reason: You're comparing a natural increase through training and progression with something that can easily result from a magical enhancement. You put on a headband and suddenly your IQ jumps 75 points; there's no real-world equivalent.
would you let a player learn Draconic if they had neither heard nor attempted to speak it before in their life simply because they leveled up? i wouldn't, because as far as that player knows, that language doesn't even exist.
If I were running a game by strict RAW? Yes, I would, because it's a benefit included with the act of leveling up, and the rules for increasing Linguistics (or learning a new language) do not include a prerequisite of "You must state that your character is spending X amount of time in the evening studying Draconic".
Even if I were running by a house rule, I would err on the side of the player even if I were asking him to justify increases simply because the system asks that when you level, you spend your allotment of ability points, skill points, and feats; the rules don't offer an option to save them up.
If Pathfinder were a system like Storyteller, where you didn't "level up" but instead could bank experience and then spend as you naturally justify increases to ability, I might view it differently, but that's not the way Pathfinder was designed to work.
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I actually don't have any really compelling fluff reasons for believing languages aren't gained by increased Intelligence. I'm more of a crunch guy.
I don't think it makes any sense that a magical headband that makes you smarter would also cause you to suddenly know a new language, whereas I'm perfectly happy to accept that it gives you the capacity to be more skillful, just as I happily accept that a belt of magical strength will make you hit harder and a belt of magical health will make you harder to kill. On the other hand, I've always viewed ranks in linguistics as representational of time spent learning the language off-screen, since leveling is meant to be the manifestation of experience (as differentiated from putting magical clothes on).
Despite all that, I'm more interested in the rules, which seem (albeit ambiguously) to me to state that languages known only check Intelligence at character creation. And I'm most interested in this because the Hero Lab developers disagree with my reading, which means all my characters have these super annoying "add more languages" errors, which make me feel like I'm cheating when if I try to silence them.
I know all the arguments for and against the additional languages, and I know where I stand and how I would rule for a game, but I want a Paizo staffer to say "it's this way" so I can either fix my character sheets or direct the Hero Lab developers to an official source that shows them I'm right. It's an interesting, but ultimately pointless argument otherwise. The truth is that the rules just aren't clear. Otherwise we'd all agree.
Thanks for all the FAQ flags, everyone!
From a game design stand point alone, I'd have to say yes. It'd be weird if there was a single attribute thing that wasn't retroactive. They set up a rule of thumb concerning stats, and to defy it on a single case is poor form, in my opinion.
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I guess I just find it strange how many people view it as the same thing, because there's a huge difference in my mind between something that is "based on" a stat (like hp, skill points, AC, saves, etc.) and something that is merely determined by a stat (like languages known at character creation, or how high you were able to jump last Thursday). The former implies an updating relationship, the latter only cares about a screen capture. I'm an intuitive thinker and I'm having a hard time enunciating how I feel, but there's a very clear distinction in my head.
Benn, what if someone puts on a headband of intelligence, and for their skill chooses linguistics to max out? Suddenly that magic headband has taught them a bunch of languages.
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Languages are by no means the only thing that gets officially 'handwaved' by RAW. Feats, skills, class abilities, spells....
At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.
The wizard's player doesn't have to tell the DM which spells he's researching during play, so that the spells he is studying are the two that gets added to his spellbook when he levels up. What happens is the wizard levels up, and at that point chooses two spells to add to his spellbook (half the time these are spells he couldn't even cast before the level up). These may be spells the player has just seen in the latest splatbook he bought after the last gaming session where he earned the XPs to level up.
It's the same with skills. We'll be encountering a lot of demons on our next mission (given to us 30 seconds ago), so I'll say my PC has been studying Knowledge(the Planes) the whole time.
It's like a game-approved ret-con every level for every character. Now, you may not like it, but it's RAW. You may even be tempted to houserule, but if you do it would be hypocritical to single out languages as requiring advanced notice before being able to acquire, while still allowing spells, skills, feats and class abilities to be gained without the same logic being applied.
Given the all-or-nothing choice, I believe your game will be happier with the handwaving. The alternative is players who become dissatisfied with being unable to make the choices for their own PC, leaving adventures half done to go and (*yawn*) train, all sense of urgency lost because no player wants to essentially give up the benefits of levelling up.
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1) In Pathfinder the developers have tried to keep bookkeeping of the character development to a minimum, so it would be a bit strange to have to record the number of languages know at character generation and have that as a different number from the number of extra languages allowed by your intelligence.
On the other hand the CRB clearly say "at the stat of the
game".
2) Food for thoughts from Ultimate Campaign
NEW LANGUAGE
You can spend time to learn an additional language.
It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.
The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks).
You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.
Here it say that "your maximum number of languages" is "(racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks)".
If the bonus languages from Intelligence is a fixed number generated at character creation and non influenced by later increases in intelligence that formula is wrong.As one of my players pointed out this rule greatly benefits character with high intelligence as they will get even more languages.
I don't think there is a definitive reply to the OP question in the rules, so I have FAQued his question.
I think bonus languages from high intelligence are determined at first level, and those languages are to be chosen from the subset of languages listed in the description of a character's race. All other languages are gained through the Linguistics skill or other specific methods, whether you choose to role play it or not.
Bonus languages, in my opinion, represent the languages a smart individual of a particular race could possibly pick up simply from exposure, meaning they aren't required to spend skill points to know them. All of the races in the core rulebook conveniently have enough languages listed to account for any possible intelligence score at first level.
Given that a character with high intelligence chooses languages from the subset listed in the description of their race, then what languages could possibly be chosen for a halfling with an intelligence of 20 created at 10th level? Halflings only have four languages listed. Would a halfling character created at 10th level simply not have a fifth language to choose? Or, are bonus languages from high intelligence at the start of the game not required to be chosen from the subset of languages listed in the description of a character's race? I would say a halfling character can only gain a fifth language (aside from common and the halfling racial language) through ranks in the Linguistics skill or other specific methods.
I think that I may be a rather odd point of view, but none the less makes perfect sense as described exactly how lakesidefantacy wrote it. If it were meant to increase as you increased the base stat, then why would each race have a set limited number of languages that could be learned? That in my opinion is as good as the rules stating "this is all you can get. Anything else is a bonus language gained in another manner"
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I think that I may be a rather odd point of view, but none the less makes perfect sense as described exactly how lakesidefantacy wrote it. If it were meant to increase as you increased the base stat, then why would each race have a set limited number of languages that could be learned? That in my opinion is as good as the rules stating "this is all you can get. Anything else is a bonus language gained in another manner"
That rule doesn't pan out when you look at the Tengu, whose "bonus languages" are literally every language in the game.
That puts a limit on the total number of languages they can learn through INT bonus alone. You may be right when you say, "This is all you can get..." - but if anything that doesn't imply a rider of, "...with your INT bonus at first level." It implies, "Once you've got an INT bonus equal to the number of bonus languages your race\class offers, you have to start taking Linguistics to learn others.
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"Bonus languages from Intelligence"
The bonus languages you get from your intelligence score are called a bonus because they are a bonus. When you permanently increase an ability score, you modify all the bonuses connected to that score ... including the bonus languages you got as a bonus for having a high intelligence (and you'd lose bonus languages if your intelligence score drops).
The confusing language in the character creation part of the book is probably just another artifact that was copy/pasted from 3.5 and/or it is intended to be context specific (it's in the "getting started" chapter, so it refers to languages at the point of character creation).
As a side note, I'm pretty sure that the ability score increase that you gain every 4 levels is never described in the rulebook. The experience chart shows you gain an increase periodically, but there's no description of how much you gain or how it works ... because it's a copy/paste from the previous edition but not everything was copied.
Also, this question was basically answered back in 2010
All bonuses are retroactive when an ability score increases, be they bonuses to damage, to skill ranks, to hit points, to saves, to skill checks... all of them. Skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game because it was a weird exception to the rule, and since now there are no exceptions to this rule, there's no need to specifically state that skill ranks are retroactively granted if your Intelligence goes up.
There are no exceptions to the general rule that the stuff connected to abilities scores is retroactively affected when the scores permanently increase. So bonuses to skill checks, bonuses to damage, bonus spells, and bonus languages are all retroactively affected.
Since languages are a small part of the game that tend to be hand-waved away by some groups in light of there being a "common" language (and groups that take languages super-seriously tend to have houserules anyway) my guess is that this never ranked high enough on the "stuff we have to do" list for the game designers to really pay much attention to it.
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Again, I didn't make this thread to argue. I know all the arguments on both sides of this issue. I just want Paizo to issue an official ruling. James Jacobs's clarifications on bonuses have never explicitly mentioned languages, and the language with regard to languages in the rules differs from every other type of benefit based on stats. It bears FAQing. I know the "but it's a bonus!" crowd feels every bit as strongly about their interpretation as I do about mine. I just want an official ruling.
Most of my characters affected by this are PFS characters, so there's no GM to just make a call for me.
It does bear consideration, though, that the vast majority of (if not all) statblocks in Paizo products don't seem to grant bonus languages for headbands of Intelligence. Who knows if they're granting them for ability bonuses every four levels? The statblocks don't provide enough breakdown of information to know for sure.
I suppose the headband of intelligence need an errata, to prevent people from gaining the language(s) they need every 24 hours (the same way it is handled for skills).
For example : headband of vast intelligence +2 of knowledge (plane) and Abyssal.
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What I would NOT do, is allow the PC to allow it to be variable, otherwise they could take it off, wait, put it back on and now know the language needed.
Because the alternative is to just cast tongues? Seriously, most of the time language will not be an issue. I don't see how letting them get a needed language after 24 hours due to magic is more game breaking than the wizard going, "Oh, hold on, I have a scroll for that, just a moment... *blah blah blah* there we go, can you hear me now?"
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It does bear consideration, though, that the vast majority of (if not all) statblocks in Paizo products don't seem to grant bonus languages for headbands of Intelligence.
This statement doesn't appear to be true. I haven't gone through every Paizo product but I did search through the NPC Codex & NPC Guide and all of the characters there DO gain bonuses from their headbands (since the bonus from the headband is included in the stat block for the character). The only exceptions in the Codex are:
*The Blade Lord on page 159 is missing his language block entirely
*The Fate Bound Mage on page 176 has no skill ranks in linguistics and a 14 Intelligence, but speaks 4 extra languages. Which fits if you add two from his headband, which apparently isn't included in his stat block. Actually, there seems to be a few errors with this character. Specifically his spell DCs seem too high.
*The Dwarf Invoker has an 18 Intelligence but only speaks 3 additional languages (common and dwarf are free).
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...So consider that most, if not all statblocks in the two published collections of character statblocks (including the Pre-Generated Ezren character sheet) give bonus languages for the permanent adjustments granted by magical headbands and the like.
The issue is with the wording "...at the start of the game" because nowhere else is anything related to stats worded as such. If this was not there, then I'd have to agree with you, but because it IS there, it begs the question of weather increasing stats was ever supposed to grant extra languages.
The NPC codex is not useful as a valid argument because they can easily be given "free" stats, feats, languages, anything simply to make them fit into their given scenario. The languages most NPCs have is usually just there to facilitate communication with NPCs based on where they are in the world
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The issue is with the wording "...at the start of the game" because nowhere else is anything related to stats worded as such. If this was not there, then I'd have to agree with you, but because it IS there, it begs the question of weather increasing stats was ever supposed to grant extra languages.
So each week when you start playing, you get to add up any languages you were missing from int increases since last game start. I mean, it doesn't say "at character creation" but "at the start of the game" which happens each time you meet, right?
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Surely, 'at the start of the game' is a phrase which reflects that this chapter is about character creation, rather than limiting languages to those known at first level.
You roll stats at the start of the game, and calculate the bonuses from your rolls (and race adjustments), but it doesn't limit your bonuses to the precise 1st level number no matter how your scores improve later.
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The NPC codex is not useful as a valid argument because they can easily be given "free" stats, feats, languages, anything simply to make them fit into their given scenario. The languages most NPCs have is usually just there to facilitate communication with NPCs based on where they are in the world
The characters in the NPC Codex/Guide don't HAVE a scenario. They're general, multi-purpose stat blocks you can plug into any adventure you want. Plus, the NPC Guide includes the pregens for Pathfinder Society play. The Ezen pregen has a magical headband and the appropriate number of languages for his boosted intelligence. Doesn't that answer the question of "is this legal in society play"?
I guess you could do a pdf search for headbands in all the published books so far to find some examples of characters who don't get bonus languages for their permanently boosted intelligence. I found ... three ... in the entirety of the two fairly recent books dedicated entirely to random plug-and-play stat blocks and all three look to be minor editing mistakes. Or heck, maybe they do work out and I just missed something in those three cases. Either way, I'd say the evidence is pretty overwhelming that bonus languages are affected by permanent intelligence gain/loss.
Also, +1 to what Malachi just said. "At the start of the game" is contextual to the chapter in which the sentence appears.
Not to mention that "at the start of the game" doesn't mean "at level 1". A GM can start a group of characters at 20th if he wants - which would mean they get bonus languages for their 20th level INT, including all the level-based ability additions and magical items.