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From the title, has Pathfinder 2e reached the point where it would benefit from it's own Strategy Guide for onboarding new players?
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The Pathfinder [1st Edition] Roleplaying Game Strategy Guide includes:
Illustrated, step-by-step guides to creating, advancing, and playing characters of all 11 core classes, with specific tips and tactics for 26 different classic character themes, such as the archer, the trickster, the crusader, the conjurer, and more!
A clear and user-friendly introduction to the basics of combat and narrative play, with easy-to- understand explanations of Pathfinder RPG terminology, systems, and core concepts.
Advice for getting the most out of game sessions, collaborating with other players, and succeeding both on and off the battlefield.
An overview of how to get started in the Pathfinder Society organized play program.
AND MUCH, MUCH MORE!Written by Wolfgang Baur, Jason Bulmahn, John Compton, Jessica Price, Sean K Reynolds, and Russ Taylor.
I think that the Player Core has an adequate explanation of how to create, advance, and play characters, but the build strategy and combat tactics of Pathfinder 2nd Edition differ from those of Pathfinder 1st Edition and Dungeons & Dragons, and they are less obvious, too. Some players could benefit from being told that Pathfinder 2nd Edition characters have a tight cap on their power for any given level. The key to winning against hostile opponents and other challenges is making good use of that power rather than increasing that power.
I made plans about a year ago to write a Tactical Guide online document. Alas, the year has been busy and I made little progress (For example, I am flying out to Portland, Oregon, tomorrow).
The Pathfinder [1st Edition] Roleplaying Game Strategy Guide includes:
Illustrated, step-by-step guides to creating, advancing, and playing characters of all 11 core classes, with specific tips and tactics for 26 different classic character themes, such as the archer, the trickster, the crusader, the conjurer, and more!
A clear and user-friendly introduction to the basics of combat and narrative play, with easy-to- understand explanations of Pathfinder RPG terminology, systems, and core concepts.
Advice for getting the most out of game sessions, collaborating with other players, and succeeding both on and off the battlefield.
An overview of how to get started in the Pathfinder Society organized play program.
AND MUCH, MUCH MORE!Written by Wolfgang Baur, Jason Bulmahn, John Compton, Jessica Price, Sean K Reynolds, and Russ Taylor.
I think that the Player Core has an adequate explanation of how to create, advance, and play characters, but the build strategy and combat tactics of Pathfinder 2nd Edition differ from those of Pathfinder 1st Edition and Dungeons & Dragons, and they are less obvious, too. Some players could benefit from being told that Pathfinder 2nd Edition characters have a tight cap on their power for any given level. The key to winning against hostile opponents and other challenges is making good use of that power rather than increasing that power.
I made plans about a year ago to write a Tactical Guide online document. Alas, the year has been busy and I made little progress (For example, I am flying out to Portland, Oregon, tomorrow).
One of the strengths of Pathfinder 2e is that two different fighters could end up with two radically different builds based on the selection of class feats - same with Rogues, Clerics, or Wizards. So like the Pathfinder 1e Strategy Guide, some guidance on how to realize different character concepts across those classes might be very helpful for a newbie.
Add to this, the Core classes and races are now spread over two books - with three of the Beginner's Box classes coming from Player Core 2. New players may be confused about why Barbarians, Monks, or Sorcerers aren't in the Player Core.
For these two reasons, I feel that Pathfinder 2e has reached the point of needing a guide to help new players transition from the Beginner's Box to the full game.
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I think any value of the guide would be incredibly influenced by the quality of the author.
If they could get somebody like Gortle to write it, then yes it could be awesome. But I'm not at all sure that every Paizo author would be able to do a decent job of this.
It would have to be much much more than "Flank is good. Focus fire is good" to be worth anything.
I think any value of the guide would be incredibly influenced by the quality of the author.
If they could get somebody like Gortle to write it, then yes it could be awesome. But I'm not at all sure that every Paizo author would be able to do a decent job of this.
It would have to be much much more than "Flank is good. Focus fire is good" to be worth anything.
Truth. But, perhaps like the 1e version, a collection of authors might be better.
Given the terrible encounter design and spell lists I see in published modules, I think a community created strategy guide would be far better.
Something that was both player strategies with DM counter strategies.
I think then it would be a help to both players and GMs rather than a strategy guide that helps only players or DMs.
Truth. But, perhaps like the 1e version, a collection of authors might be better.I think any value of the guide would be incredibly influenced by the quality of the author.
If they could get somebody like Gortle to write it, then yes it could be awesome. But I'm not at all sure that every Paizo author would be able to do a decent job of this.
It would have to be much much more than "Flank is good. Focus fire is good" to be worth anything.
Yep a team is better. At the moment I'm barely keeping the spell guide up to date and I'm not really across the new classes. I'm too busy playing the game.
Given the terrible encounter design and spell lists I see in published modules, I think a community created strategy guide would be far better.
Something that was both player strategies with DM counter strategies.
I think then it would be a help to both players and GMs rather than a strategy guide that helps only players or DMs.
I wonder what all the player strategies are.
Front Line and Back Line is common. Melee characters who can withstand Strikes form a protective line in front of ranged characters who are vulnerable.
Divide and Conquer is a classic and describes a form of battlefield control.
Skirmish was used by my Iron Gods players. Everyone keeps moving and attacking at range. Especially fun if a few party members can fly.
Defend and Neutralize is the favorite tactic of my current party. Figure out the tactics of the enemy (creatures have fewer tactics than player characters) and switch to an approach that makes them less effective, such as taking cover against a ranged attack. Observing tactics takes a little time, so start with a good defense.
What are examples of terrible encounter design? The encounters that bug me are the ones that do not fit the setting or plot (Order of the Stick: Displaced Persons). Some maps in modules are smaller than I like, but that is understandable given the page limits.
I wonder what all the player strategies are.Given the terrible encounter design and spell lists I see in published modules, I think a community created strategy guide would be far better.
Something that was both player strategies with DM counter strategies.
I think then it would be a help to both players and GMs rather than a strategy guide that helps only players or DMs.
Ah, no.
I mean something closer to the Pathfinder 1e Strategy Guide. Literally examples of how to make different characters using the same class.
For example, the 1e Strategy Guide had examples for a Fighter with Sword & Board vs. Two Handed Weapon. This would include all the appropriate Class, Skill, & General feats required for a 1-20 build for both options.
Another example was the Sorcerer, with builds for a Celestial, Blue Dragon, and Elemental Fire bloodlines.
While the examples need not be the same , they should be varied enough to help inspire ideas for a PC.
Likewise, by using all 16 Core classes it should help a new player. Remember the goal of a Pathfinder 2e Strategy Guide is to help the transition from the Beginner Box to the full game.
Yep a team is better. At the moment I'm barely keeping the spell guide up to date and I'm not really across the new classes. I'm too busy playing the game.Truth. But, perhaps like the 1e version, a collection of authors might be better.I think any value of the guide would be incredibly influenced by the quality of the author.
If they could get somebody like Gortle to write it, then yes it could be awesome. But I'm not at all sure that every Paizo author would be able to do a decent job of this.
It would have to be much much more than "Flank is good. Focus fire is good" to be worth anything.
Again A PF2 Strategy Guide only includes Player Core & Player Core 2 - just like the PF1 Strategy Guide only dealt with the Core Rulebook. The new classes from Impossible Magic, etc. are not addressed at all. The spells & feats introduced from the numerous splat books are also ignored.
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Honestly, at this stage, I don’t think character creation and feat selection is difficult or unintuitive enough in PF2 to justify a book like this, especially if it was limiting itself to the two player core books because there are a lot of options for core classes elsewhere now.
I think a strategy guide for GMs, helping them navigate encounters and adventure design, aware of the additional GM resources in later books would probably be more helpful to more tables, but probably wouldn’t sell all that well. Covering things like making creatures, awarding treasure, using subsystems (more help for that), understanding the rarity system and how to use it to reward and not punish players, etc. also talking through when to use big full dungeon maps for playing through exploration mode and how to avoid that using infiltration style subsystems would be interesting coming from some of the longest running GMs in the company.
Given the terrible encounter design and spell lists I see in published modules, I think a community created strategy guide would be far better.
Something that was both player strategies with DM counter strategies.
I think then it would be a help to both players and GMs rather than a strategy guide that helps only players or DMs.I wonder what all the player strategies are.
Front Line and Back Line is common. Melee characters who can withstand Strikes form a protective line in front of ranged characters who are vulnerable.
Divide and Conquer is a classic and describes a form of battlefield control.
Skirmish was used by my Iron Gods players. Everyone keeps moving and attacking at range. Especially fun if a few party members can fly.
Defend and Neutralize is the favorite tactic of my current party. Figure out the tactics of the enemy (creatures have fewer tactics than player characters) and switch to an approach that makes them less effective, such as taking cover against a ranged attack. Observing tactics takes a little time, so start with a good defense.What are examples of terrible encounter design? The encounters that bug me are the ones that do not fit the setting or plot (Order of the Stick: Displaced Persons). Some maps in modules are smaller than I like, but that is understandable given the page limits.
Spell lists with weak spells that won't accomplish much against a PC party.
Putting huge creatures in overly small rooms.
Putting fliers or highly mobile creatures in rooms where they can't use flight or mobility very well. This is often done with dragons, which is just terrible. A dragon that can't move around the battlefield using that immense flight and reach is in a terrible position.
Putting caster enemies in small areas that make them easy targets for trip, slow, and destroy tactics.
Not bothering to build NPC enemy parties with strategic abilities to work together like tossing in a champion that works in tandem with another martial to work off each other.
Very little action advantage thinking tossing in a big monster alone that is using 3 actions against often 12 or more actions.
No counters to powerful, common maneuvers like trip even at high level where even monsters should have something like Kip Up like nearly every player takes to makes sure trip isn't a no brainer massive advantage.
Encounter design like the above that makes it so PC parties own the encounter because it's designed in such a bog standard way that gives massive advantage to parties that don't even have to try to use good tactics much less letting parties that use good tactics absolutely destroy the encounter.
That's why groups like mine, Unicore, gesalts, Gortle, your group, and probably so many others easily wreck encounters, especially if run as designed.
It's definitely not as bad as PF1 or 5E. I still have to redo a lot of spell lists, account for the common strategies of players, and build important encounters to ensure they aren't a cakewalk. I hate it when main monsters get easily wrecked because there was so little thought put into what a PC party at the higher levels can do.
I have to break the rules a bit to do this. I wish higher level encounter or monster design took into account the action advantage of a PC group and how they use a lot of action denial on monsters that really makes the encounters pretty easy. Action control is the new power gaming of PF2 rather than complete nullification like PF1.
Honestly, at this stage, I don’t think character creation and feat selection is difficult or unintuitive enough in PF2 to justify a book like this, especially if it was limiting itself to the two player core books because there are a lot of options for core classes elsewhere now.
I think a strategy guide for GMs, helping them navigate encounters and adventure design, aware of the additional GM resources in later books would probably be more helpful to more tables, but probably wouldn’t sell all that well. Covering things like making creatures, awarding treasure, using subsystems (more help for that), understanding the rarity system and how to use it to reward and not punish players, etc. also talking through when to use big full dungeon maps for playing through exploration mode and how to avoid that using infiltration style subsystems would be interesting coming from some of the longest running GMs in the company.
Wasn't this what GM Core was supposed to do?
What you are describing is the Pathfinder 1e Gamemastery Guide. So, GM Core 2?