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Archetypes can be hit or miss, even when their respective base class is amazing.
What are you hoping to see in the new necromancer multiclass archetype? What do you expect to we will see?
For me, I'm hoping they get thrall creation right out of the gate with Necromancer Dedication, since that's their whole identity. Perhaps on a 1 thrall for 1 action basis, which then increases to 2 once per round with another feat.
I hope it's not limited to one per round or per ten minutes or anything lame like that.
I believe we were told during PaizoCon that it does get thrall creation out of the gate.
Additionally, because the Puppeteer/Reaper subclasses of Necromancer give Create Thrall better action economy instead of that coming from cantrip scaling, it seems easier to include in the archetype without modification.
My expectation is that it will be the slighty-too-good-on-Int-casters baseline option of "one thrall and command it or two thralls and no command" that makes it into a one-action damage cantrip with upside. The thralls will be the base version without subclass benefits like healing, better movement, etc.
Does that still need a nerf? Well, it does feel like the best Wizard dedication option available. Easiest option to nerf it into the ground is making it one thrall with no auto-command, but I'd be a little surprised by that.
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I think we will get the Create Thrall and Command as is, maybe with Command usable only when you Create a Thrall in the dedication and a 4th-level feat that gives you the ability to do it anytime.
And now I have this image of a Wood Kineticist MC Necromancer spamming Timber Sentinels and Thralls all over the battlefield.
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I think we will get the Create Thrall and Command as is, maybe with Command usable only when you Create a Thrall in the dedication and a 4th-level feat that gives you the ability to do it anytime.
And now I have this image of a Wood Kineticist MC Necromancer spamming Timber Sentinels and Thralls all over the battlefield.
We did actually have Wood Kineticist and Necromancer together in the playtest, and let's just say it's a good thing thralls are only difficult terrain now!
Its really hard to predict multiclass archetypes with Paizo because they either make them really busted or totally useless lol. I'm inclined to think the dedication should have the basic Create Thrall action unmodified since the necromancer's subclasses already improve it, but we could have a guardian situation where we need to take like 3 feats to get a worse version of a basic feature of the class at like 8th level too.
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It pretty much has to have Create Thrall otherwise it's a waste of time to even print it, TBH. What's the point of the Archetype if it doesn't do the thing that defines the class?
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I would assume the Dedication gives us a Dirge with 2 known cantrip and the ability to prepare one of them per day. Anything else would break the spellcaster archetype mold, and I don't see that happening. It will also give us training in Occultism, of course.
On top of that, I strongly assume it will come with Create Thrall as a focus Cantrip and the Command a Thrall action/cantrip. We won't get the action compress of the Fatal Methods, so no third thrall or free action Strike.
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My guess is:
Create thrall focus cantrip (baseline as printed)
2 Cantrips and one prep slot for a cantrip
Occultism trained
I think Command Thrall will be a lvl 4 or 6 feat.
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I pray they don't do like they did the Magus and take it's primary feature (spellstrike in that case, create thrall in this one) and lock it behind a feat. In fact, I hope they change the Magus multi-class in this reprint to fix that.
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It pretty much has to have Create Thrall otherwise it's a waste of time to even print it, TBH. What's the point of the Archetype if it doesn't do the thing that defines the class?
Show me on this character sheet where the animist archetype hurt you.
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I think Command Thrall will be a lvl 4 or 6 feat.
That would be terrible since you need Command Thrall to have your thralls do anything at all.
I think Command Thrall will be a lvl 4 or 6 feat.That would be terrible since you need Command Thrall to have your thralls do anything at all.
You mean besides imposing difficult terrain? :P
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I think Command Thrall will be a lvl 4 or 6 feat.That would be terrible since you need Command Thrall to have your thralls do anything at all.
I haven't seen the wording of the new Create Thrall focus spell. I was under the impression that having it attack was baked in as an option in Create Thrall (either attack with one, or create 2). If the wording specifically says you can, as a free action, use Command Thrall, then i stand corrwc5wd and agree.
Upon re-reading the Know Direction article it isn't listed, but it heavily implies it os a co.pressed 1 action for both abilities, so likely yes, we'd need that too
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I think we will get the Create Thrall and Command as is, maybe with Command usable only when you Create a Thrall in the dedication and a 4th-level feat that gives you the ability to do it anytime.
And now I have this image of a Wood Kineticist MC Necromancer spamming Timber Sentinels and Thralls all over the battlefield.
Since necros = thrall casters it seems like they would need to be able to produce them. I am guessing their action economy and ability to use them is going to be what is limited.
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Now I'm picturing a whole party of multiclass Necros scrambling to find identifiable miniss/tokens/pawns to distinguish whose thralls are whose.
"For the third time, the blue mancala beads are my zombies, your ghosts are the clear mancala beads!"
Presumably the Grim Fascination bonuses to thralls won't be included, which leaves it a bit of an open question how to flavor multiclass thralls -- can you really say these are spirits if they don't get any benefits to being spirits?
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Presumably the Grim Fascination bonuses to thralls won't be included, which leaves it a bit of an open question how to flavor multiclass thralls -- can you really say these are spirits if they don't get any benefits to being spirits?
Yes, you can. You can already make skeletons as a spirit specialist, they're just slower skeletons.
necromancer dedication with create thrall but no mechanics to utilize them at all you just get to create a square of difficult terrain with an action. No cantrip, maybe a skill. You have to spend another feat to get command but it's also nerfed in some way.
Look, actually I'm curious about the Runesmith archetype; I'm just waiting for that to choose between a conjuring or martial Necromancer. I want to see if I can get runes for myself and my allies, and who knows, maybe even for my servants!
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The preview pages for Impossible Magic are now up on the store page. We have the Table of Contents, The Magus and Necromancer Archetype, some of the Fulu items.
Not having the actual create thrall cantrip is interesting. The dedication feat is pretty good but doesn't seem op. Definitely a tad bit of power creep on a spellcaster dedication but I don't really mind, it doesn't look like a "must take".
I had to use the browser debug tools to read that preview because the window it's in is so tiny on a 4k monitor.
Not having the actual create thrall cantrip is interesting. The dedication feat is pretty good but doesn't seem op. Definitely a tad bit of power creep on a spellcaster dedication but I don't really mind, it doesn't look like a "must take".
I noticed that. I wonder if that means there are feats that the archetype won't be able to take because it requires the class only version?
Suuuper happy about the archetype. I figured it would get create thrall but limited to one thrall, and a skill. Having that and two cantrips is wicked!
Bah! They limited it to one thrall per round!
I'd rather give up one of the cantrips for a little bit more freedom with the thralls.
Color me a little surprised by "one thrall, no command" like I said, but getting two prepared occult cantrips on top of that really helps take the sting out of it. Getting a cantrip version of Phantasmal Minion is pretty nice!
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I noticed that. I wonder if that means there are feats that the archetype won't be able to take because it requires the class only version?
Reminded of the int to medicine feat commanders have written so commanders can pick it up immediately but it's level 10+ for anyone with the archetype.
An instant flanking buddy sounds great for martials, especially since the action doesn't even have the manipulate trait (which I seriously hope is also true for the Create Thrall cantrip of the full class).
It's also interesting that it's not a spell at all, so it's unaffected by things like stupefy, doesn't require you to speak and might not even have any obvious signs of magic happening. You can just make zombies pop up with a glance.
That being said, I'm not sure I'd ever fit the poor action economy of the Necro archetype into a caster, though.
EDIT: The acion not being a spell also means no heightening and thus, no scaling. I wonder where the base damage of a thrall Strike and its scaling is defined. Probably in the thrall trait.
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EDIT: The acion not being a spell also means no heightening and thus, no scaling. I wonder where the base damage of a thrall Strike and its scaling is defined. Probably in the thrall trait.
The damage is in the Comand Thrall focus cantrip. That does scale and looks like the archetype gets regular access to it. It just doesnt get the action compression of the full Necromancer, which is fair.
The damage is in the Comand Thrall focus cantrip. That does scale and looks like the archetype gets regular access to it. It just doesnt get the action compression of the full Necromancer, which is fair.EDIT: The acion not being a spell also means no heightening and thus, no scaling. I wonder where the base damage of a thrall Strike and its scaling is defined. Probably in the thrall trait.
I don't think Command a Thrall is a cantrip. The Necro Dedication says it's an action that's described in the thrall trait.
An instant flanking buddy sounds great for martials, especially since the action doesn't even have the manipulate trait (which I seriously hope is also true for the Create Thrall cantrip of the full class).
Oddly enough, the necromancer dedictation itself has the manipulate trait. I thought that was just a typo, but is it possible that's a lost trait meant to be in the description?
Oddly enough, the necromancer dedictation itself has the manipulate trait. I thought that was just a typo, but is it possible that's a lost trait meant to be in the description?
Didn't notice that. I guess it's possible that the trait should be on the action? Let's hope for a day 1 errata to clear that up.
I don't think Command a Thrall is a cantrip. The Necro Dedication says it's an action that's described in the thrall trait.The damage is in the Comand Thrall focus cantrip. That does scale and looks like the archetype gets regular access to it. It just doesnt get the action compression of the full Necromancer, which is fair.EDIT: The acion not being a spell also means no heightening and thus, no scaling. I wonder where the base damage of a thrall Strike and its scaling is defined. Probably in the thrall trait.
Command a Thrall is the action that lets a Thrall do one of several actions. One of those is a Strike that is d6 and scales up another d6 every four levels, maxing at 5d6 at level 17.
Additionally, Necromancers get the Thrall Charge cantrip (archetype can take it with a feat at level 4), which is 2a to combine a Stride and a Strike, adds 1d6-4d6 extra damage to the above damage, and if you sacrifice the thrall adds spell rank in additional damage.