I think they should change the names of the classes

[Justnobodyfqwl]

Hi everyone, every time there's a playtest thread, for some reason, someone gets really specifically annoyed at the names of the classes. They insist that there's something horribly wrong with the name, and insist on an interchangable synonym that sounds slightly worse.

I thought I'd get ahead of that by making this thread. It was going to happen eventually, so I thought I'd save everyone the trouble and do it now. Truth be told, I like the names! But I figure since this happens every playtest, it's good to get it out of the way.

[Perpdepog]

Prepare your shots, everybody. The drinking game is back on!

[Zoken44]

honestly, Daredevil could just be renamed Jackie Chan: the class (yes, I know I used this joke elsewhere, I like it).

[TheTownsend]

Well done! Henceforth the classes shall be renamed (checks a thesaurus) Exhibitionist and Murderess (gendered).

[Perpdepog]

TheTownsend wrote:

Well done! Henceforth the classes shall be renamed (checks a thesaurus) Exhibitionist and Murderess (gendered).

It sounded for a second like my screen reader pronounced "murderess" as "murderist" and, if I'm honest, that name does go kinda hard.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

TheTownsend wrote:

Well done! Henceforth the classes shall be renamed (checks a thesaurus) Exhibitionist and Murderess (gendered).

I don't know about YOU guys, but if I see an RPG with a class named "The Exhibitionist", I'm picking that every time. I suppose that's one way to Create A Distraction!

[JiCi]

One BIG issue is that the previous Slayer class was renamed the Avenger, and is now an archetype.

The Slayer was a pseudo-assassin in P1E and now it's a monster hunter in P2E... but it' snot the SAME Hunter class as P1E...

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

What classes?!? All I see are feats and abilities to give to Fighters. Maaaaybe Thaumaturges have had some abilities reskinned and re-presented.

[QuidEst]

JiCi wrote:

One BIG issue is that the previous Slayer class was renamed the Avenger, and is now an archetype.

The Slayer was a pseudo-assassin in P1E and now it's a monster hunter in P2E... but it' snot the SAME Hunter class as P1E...

That sounds more like a little issue.

Avenger covers the old iconic Slayer- a religious individual carrying out violence on behalf of their faith, through single-target precision damage.

That leaves "Slayer" open. Are folks going to be confused? Probably not? I only ever thought about Slayer's Ankou's Shadow archetype. It wasn't a very memorable class, and Ranger picked up the action-to-target-for-precision bit years ago.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

Yeah, if we had to take every slapdash naming and design decision that PF1E made like religious gospel, then we'd be carrying a huge burden for the rest of time. You gotta remember that we're at a point where there's a massive chunk of PF2E players that have never even played Pre-Remaster PF2E, much less PF1E.

[A Drifting Shoebox]

While I don't have much of a problem with Daredevil as a name, I do look at it and kinda wonder why they didn't give it a native d6 lethal fist and call it "Brawler", given that it's... Definitely very much filling that "open handed, lightly armored maneuver focused combatant" class that 1e brawler definitely wanted to be (to kinda dubious result). I can only assume they wanted to avoid "monk 2" callouts, but I don't think they really dodge that as much as try to hide it behind a thin curtain.

[Squiggit]

I also think these threads get a bit silly but OP feels kind of bad faith idk if we really need to try to dunk on people who don't like certain class names.

[exequiel759]

Yeah, I think brawler would been much appropiate as a name for daredevil. Just replace the (fairly weird) Diehard feat it gains at 1st level with the monk's powerful fist and it would be enough. There's at least one feat that interacts with handrwraps of mightly blows in the class, plus the class clearly borrows heavily from the wrestler archetype which has powerful fist as well.

With slayer I think I got used to it already, but I would have prefered hunter personally.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

Squiggit wrote:

I also think these threads get a bit silly but OP feels kind of bad faith idk if we really need to try to dunk on people who don't like certain class names.

I feel like "every time, people insist that Paizo needs to change the names during the playtest, which is something they've never done and never matters" is the most gentle and good-faith ribbing I could possibly do. I think it's silly and is tilting against windmills, but I don't hold it against anyone. I've seen people on these forums say nastier things about people's intelligence and moral character over disagreements about how to interpret rules interactions.

[Red Griffyn]

Zoken44 wrote:

honestly, Daredevil could just be renamed Jackie Chan: the class (yes, I know I used this joke elsewhere, I like it).

Saw the thread title and came here say:

Jackie Chan and Witcher... glad someone beat me to it.

[Teridax]

I honestly don't know what could be done with the Slayer, as their identity and mechanics are inherently derivative on a number of levels (I suppose you could call them the Witcher 3: The Wild Hunter), but I do agree with A Drifting Shoebox and exequiel759 that there's value in calling the Daredevil the Brawler instead, and generally altering their flavor a little. A lot of the comparisons to the Swashbuckler could have been avoided in my opinion if the class had been presented more as a scrappy adrenaline junkie than as a daring show-off. Although the topic of naming has come up before for other classes, here I think it is salient because there have been an unprecedented number of unfavorable comparisons to existing classes, in part because of the classes' names and the way in which they were presented.

[moosher12]

One thing I feel gives Daredevil more credence to the name is that it did get at least one feet to establish it as a capable stunt driver. Which is frankly, stuntwork is not really something I'd associate with a brawler.

Plus, Brawler existed in 1E, and was very much not what this class is trying to be. As the brawler was more of a hybrid fighter/monk, with very little closeness to the swashbuckler that the daredevil gets compared to.

Brawler was a pugilist with lethal unarmed strikes. And daredevil doesn't even get lethal unarmed strikes.

[Castilliano]

As I wrote elsewhere, if you can't make Matt Murdock & Buffy with these classes, their names are failures. :-) (But I do kinda mean it, since that's the zeitgeist behind the names.)

More like Stuntman and Obsessed Murderer (though Murderist does tickle my sensibilities). Maybe the latter's name should focus more on the tokens/totems than the slaying part?

ETA: Leaning more toward Hunter (or Trophy Hunter or similar), much like Kraven, looking to take on tougher and tougher creatures, collect and grow strong from the effort (or stolen essence, ingredients, etc.). Time to pull out some hearts and consume your enemy's strength.

[Teridax]

moosher12 wrote:

One thing I feel gives Daredevil more credence to the name is that it did get at least one feet to establish it as a capable stunt driver. Which is frankly, stuntwork is not really something I'd associate with a brawler.

Plus, Brawler existed in 1E, and was very much not what this class is trying to be. As the brawler was more of a hybrid fighter/monk, with very little closeness to the swashbuckler that the daredevil gets compared to.

Brawler was a pugilist with lethal unarmed strikes. And daredevil doesn't even get lethal unarmed strikes.

And the Slayer from 1e is the Avenger in 2e, whereas the Slayer we have now has little to do with either. While I agree that we could do with a separate Brawler that aims more for the original 1e fantasy, I do think right now it's important to make sure the Daredevil steers clear of the Swash's thematic space (Pugilist would also be a fine name for a class archetype IMO).

[exequiel759]

Most PF2e classes that have a direct equivalent in PF1e aren't really the same. The 1e investigator was a rogue with alchemy, while the 2e investigator is more like a detective. The 2e ranger more closely resembles the 1e slayer than it does the 1e ranger, and the swashbuckler was a re-skinned gunslinger.

The daredevil in a ton of ways directly borrows from the 1e brawler, like how prevalent Athletics maneuvers are and the fact that you have an extra feat that you can retrain everyday (the 1e brawler's version was more on the fly, but the concept is there). The reduction of MAP for press actions can also be seen as analogous to brawler's fury in 1e, which itself is similar to the flurry ranger and the 1e ranger's combat styles.

[moosher12]

Teridax wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

One thing I feel gives Daredevil more credence to the name is that it did get at least one feet to establish it as a capable stunt driver. Which is frankly, stuntwork is not really something I'd associate with a brawler.

Plus, Brawler existed in 1E, and was very much not what this class is trying to be. As the brawler was more of a hybrid fighter/monk, with very little closeness to the swashbuckler that the daredevil gets compared to.

Brawler was a pugilist with lethal unarmed strikes. And daredevil doesn't even get lethal unarmed strikes.

And the Slayer from 1e is the Avenger in 2e, whereas the Slayer we have now has little to do with either. While I agree that we could do with a separate Brawler that aims more for the original 1e fantasy, I do think right now it's important to make sure the Daredevil steers clear of the Swash's thematic space (Pugilist would also be a fine name for a class archetype IMO).

My problem with the Brawler name is that to me, Brawlers don't really do stunts. You'd have to rename a lot of abilities in the Daredevil to rename it to brawler. When I think of a brawler, I think of a martial artist, not a stuntsman. A brawler would have to lose the term "stunt" because that's just not brawler. They brawl. They apply fists and knees to the face, and sometimes stab people, but a brawler hardly invokes the idea of being a "risktaker." who performs stunts. Nor does a brawler do flashy, inefficient things

Basically, if you switched Daredevil as it is to Brawler, I think the case would be fair to make that the class just doesn't look like a brawler, either. And the base of it would need to be retuned to be a brawler theme.

I'd rather a brawler be what it was in 1E, a hybrid between fighter and monk, and potentially operative.

[Perpdepog]

Castilliano wrote:

As I wrote elsewhere, if you can't make Matt Murdock & Buffy with these classes, their names are failures. :-)

I don't see how you can't make Matt Murdock with the daredevil class. Heightened Senses is even better for blind characters than Blind Fight is, for one thing. That felt like a pretty clear nod to Daredevil to me. One I was dreading seeing as soon as I heard the classes name, but was expecting.

[Teridax]

moosher12 wrote:

My problem with the Brawler name is that to me, Brawlers don't really do stunts. You'd have to rename a lot of abilities in the Daredevil to rename it to brawler. When I think of a brawler, I think of a martial artist, not a stuntsman. A brawler would have to lose the term "stunt" because that's just not brawler. They brawl. They apply fists and knees to the face, and sometimes stab people, but a brawler hardly invokes the idea of being a "risktaker." who performs stunts. Nor does a brawler do flashy, inefficient things

I don't think brawlers really are martial artists, but yes, I very much agree that the names and flavoring of their feats ought to change, that's kind of the whole point. Adrenaline I think makes makes sense on a scrappy, combatant, as does risk-taking as well. By contrast, stunts are flashy things you do for show, and props are things you use as part of a performance, which is why the class registered as the Swashbuckler 2.0 to many.

[NoxiousMiasma]

My silly persnickety opinion is that "adrenaline" feels too modern as a term. Like, IRL the hormone itself was first isolated in 1897, and then the drug name adrenalin is from about 1901, which feels a little late for where Golarion's general tech level is.

Maybe "rush" or something?

[_shredder_]

It's not a huge deal, but to me the name daredevil just feels kinda off in a high fantasy setting like golarion. Daredevil comes from "one who dares the devil", which is a big deal if you are in the real world and religious. But in a world where countless dangerous, magical beings from other planes of reality walk around, there really isn't anything that makes daring a devil so incredibly special and impressive.

[Castilliano]

_shredder_ wrote:

It's not a huge deal, but to me the name daredevil just feels kinda off in a high fantasy setting like golarion. Daredevil comes from "one who dares the devil", which is a big deal if you are in the real world and religious. But in a world where countless dangerous, magical beings from other planes of reality walk around, there really isn't anything that makes daring a devil so incredibly special and impressive.

Yeah, it probably carries the same vibe as "devil-darer" or even "demon-darer" would to us (back when those felt real). Daredevil would lack all the stuntwork/extreme sports connotations it's accumulated. On the other hand, Golarion isn't using English, so daredevil is our translation of whatever they're called in Taldane which likely carries no connotations of devils, only daring. It could be "bounce-a-lot" for all we know, which would sound silly in English, but might have the weight of many sagas strengthening it in Golarion.

So yeah, if Daredevil works for us, it works just as well as it's comparable non-diabolic versions on Golarion. (Not that there won't be future wordplay completely undermining this.)

[Roadlocator]

_shredder_ wrote:

It's not a huge deal, but to me the name daredevil just feels kinda off in a high fantasy setting like golarion. Daredevil comes from "one who dares the devil", which is a big deal if you are in the real world and religious. But in a world where countless dangerous, magical beings from other planes of reality walk around, there really isn't anything that makes daring a devil so incredibly special and impressive.

I can certainly see where you're coming from, but in world, very few people would be referred to by class names, especially martial characters, its just a term for the benefit of those at the table

[moosher12]

_shredder_ wrote:

It's not a huge deal, but to me the name daredevil just feels kinda off in a high fantasy setting like golarion. Daredevil comes from "one who dares the devil", which is a big deal if you are in the real world and religious. But in a world where countless dangerous, magical beings from other planes of reality walk around, there really isn't anything that makes daring a devil so incredibly special and impressive.

One who dares the devil does sound apt when there is a whole faction where a recruit must kill a devil as a right of passage, and countless other factions who see devils as enemies, and a whole country that takes pride in learning to outsmart devils. Especially when many of the freedom-fighting risk-takers, ahem, the Firebrands, take especial umbrage with said devil factions.

Though that leads to the other possibility. Why not just call Daredevils Firebrands. Firebrand as an archetype is still stuck in Legacy, so the name is up for grabs. Heck, the Firebrand archetype was all about showmanship and high-risk, high reward maneuvers. Just like the daredevil.

Other note, Golarion is high fantasy, but it is also victorian steampunk in places. Stunt Drivers have been an archetype for almost 5 years now. And the art of Alkenstar places it as a well-established magic-less steampunk haven. A term like daredevil, even in a stunt-man sense can easily have come out of a place like that, or more cosmopolitan areas like Absalom. Someone did some fishing and said that Daredevil was coined in the 1600s, and while it is beyond the Rennaisance area some of the lower tech areas of Golarion observe, i.e. the boonies, The actual tech level of Golarion, especially in tech havens like The Mana Wastes and Absalom, is much closer to the 1840s.

[moosher12]

Roadlocator wrote:

_shredder_ wrote:

It's not a huge deal, but to me the name daredevil just feels kinda off in a high fantasy setting like golarion. Daredevil comes from "one who dares the devil", which is a big deal if you are in the real world and religious. But in a world where countless dangerous, magical beings from other planes of reality walk around, there really isn't anything that makes daring a devil so incredibly special and impressive.

I can certainly see where you're coming from, but in world, very few people would be referred to by class names, especially martial characters, its just a term for the benefit of those at the table

This one is dubious. Because I always see conflicting information on it, so I don't rely on that point. I've read in Pathfinder books where people do refer to people's class. Or make assumptions of it. Winter Witch has its leading girl being referred to as a barbarian when she is closer to a rogue. But she's assumed to be a barbarian due to her ethnicity. Whereas its leading guy is referred to as a wizard. And I recall in a passage for Sandpoint, a daughter of a baker would openly advertise herself as a "rogue looking for adventure." It varies by writer, as some writers actually do have characters refer to the existence of classes. But because Paizo uses different writers, it's not rule that can really be kept a hard rule, as it's a rule that's constantly broken by the writers.

[Perpdepog]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

My silly persnickety opinion is that "adrenaline" feels too modern as a term. Like, IRL the hormone itself was first isolated in 1897, and then the drug name adrenalin is from about 1901, which feels a little late for where Golarion's general tech level is.

Maybe "rush" or something?

The one I've heard that I quite liked, assuming name changes were on the table, is Momentum. I'd argue it even connotes the feeling of wanting to do something Risky for a greater advantage every turn more than adrenaline does.

[Castilliano]

Momentum better suits what's actually happening in most instances. Building up momentum, losing it in an instant, regaining it an instant later, having few if any physiological or weightlifting effects, more circumstantial ones re: placement or maneuvering. Yeah, it's Momentum.
And let's not forget Poppets and other non-biological entities!

[Perpdepog]

Castilliano wrote:

Momentum better suits what's actually happening in most instances. Building up momentum, losing it in an instant, regaining it an instant later, having few if any physiological or weightlifting effects, more circumstantial ones re: placement or maneuvering. Yeah, it's Momentum.

And let's not forget Poppets and other non-biological entities!

This is a bit of a reach, because it relies on knowledge of the game, but Momentum as a mechanic name also gives a very different feel from the swashbuckler, who daredevil keeps getting compared to. Swashies use up their Panache in one burst with their finishers, waiting for the right time to make that stylish strike. Momentum, in contrast, connotes something you want to keep building, keep going, never stop, never slow down, which it sounds like daredevil wants to do.

The more I think about it the more I'm liking it, and I'm trying to not get too attached because I'm suspecting it won't be changing.

[WatersLethe]

I also like Momentum. It's got some latin old timey vibes going for it.

Daredevil is pitch perfect for a Starfinder class, so it's kind of a shame to see it used here. Don't see a great alternative. Maybe Madcap. Either way, it's probably fine.

Slayer is spot on. I wouldn't want to to change it at all.

[moosher12]

Waterslethe kind of put into words what I was starting to feel, but couldn't put my finger on. Daredevil does feel more like it belongs in Starfinder than Pathfinder.

[glass]

Add me to the list of "Slayer does not seem to have any resemblance to the PF1 Slayer, so should probably be called something else". Either that or make it more like the PF1 Slayer.

Daredevil is fine as by me, though.

[QuidEst]

Slayer and Daredevil are both fine as names, they should just be swapped between the two classes.

[Optic_TH]

I like Renegade or Vandal instead of Daredevil, Slayer works fine imo, though it does create weird expectations if you played 1e.

Momentum seems more fitting than Adrenaline too.

[Unicore]

I think the book these classes comes out in is going to feature a lot of rules related to vehicles and skill feats, and I think that alone is probably going to mean the daredevil keeps its name. I don't see a Brawler class coming out in any book short of one that really digs into the various unarmed martial practices of the people of Golarion, and I don't think this book will be that.

[Mathmuse]

Unicore wrote:

I think the book these classes comes out in is going to feature a lot of rules related to vehicles and skill feats, and I think that alone is probably going to mean the daredevil keeps its name. I don't see a Brawler class coming out in any book short of one that really digs into the various unarmed martial practices of the people of Golarion, and I don't think this book will be that.

Interesting speculation.

When I ran the PF1 Iron Gods adventure path, I pulled heavily from the Downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign for running a business. The players set up three businesses to hide their technological crafting, contraband sales, and sheltering of refugees. And for the fun of it, too. Establishing a business would qualify as Risks & Rewards.

[BishopMcQ]

I think the Daredevil could also be a bit of a Bravo. Though, to be fair, I don't know how many people still think of that word as a noun for a person and not the channel to watch housewives behaving badly.

Desperado would be a good fit for a Daredevil/gunslinger multiclass

[The-Magic-Sword]

glass wrote:

Add me to the list of "Slayer does not seem to have any resemblance to the PF1 Slayer, so should probably be called something else". Either that or make it more like the PF1 Slayer.

Daredevil is fine as by me, though.

We should just issue a retcon of the PF1e slayer to be more like the pf2e Slayer, so that way it resembles the pf1e Slayer better.

[Squiggit]

The PF2 Slayer doesn't need to be more like the PF1 slayer because the PF2 ranger is already the pf1 slayer.