Rogue can make such a diverse range of PCs, that we'd need to know what kind of character do you like playing. Do you have an RPing concept? Would you like to recreate a Barbarian-like PC, just with more skills? etc.
Then, who are your teammates, and what are their tactics?
For instance, if you have a Dirge of Doom Bard, then Dread Striker makes life quite simple for you. If there's a Champion, you're a lot safer flanking enemies. Can they cover enemies immune to Precision damage (mostly oozes, swarms, & incorporeal enemies) alone or do you need maybe to use your Archetype to help there? Is there a lot of magic? It'd be quite unfortunate if you were the only front-liner for example (but manageable w/ investments). IMO this plays different from Barbarian who kinda doesn't need to factor in others as much. Like most of PF2, trying to do it all within your own build can tax you too much (and have feebler results than you'd prefer), so check in with your co-players.
The nature of the campaign matters too re: Thievery, enemy-types, etc. and what roles the party would prefer to cover. Like will Deception ever be necessary? Is there a face-PC already?
All Rogues have the advantage that they can do 2-handed weapon damage with one hand (and likely an Agile weapon at that). So what do you want to do with your free hand? Sounds like Athletics, but a shield would do nice if the party lacks tough PCs or in-combat healing; or a second weapon might help w/ damage diversity or provide ranged options (ex. for that Dirge of Doom setup).
And there's Opportune Backstab, an 8th level game-changer that hopefully syncs with your squad. If so, build to endure front-line damage (and yes, Gang Up can help you by keeping you on your team's side of the battle.)
What can help you find a fun Racket might be the 10th level feats for specific Rackets that add Debilitation effects. Which do you like best or cover Conditions allies can't inflict?
Honestly though, Ruffian & Thief feel like the only games in town unless you have specific concepts in mind. A Ruffian Rogue has the advantage they can switch to a big weapon if Sneak Attack doesn't work (i.e. Katana switching to two-hand), plus upgrade their armor & as you mentioned, can emphasize Athletics. But that's quite redundant if a Fighter's providing Combat Grab or Slam Down. I like Champion MCD myself, if that's not stepping on anybody's toes theme-wise.
Meanwhile a Thief Rogue essentially has bonus stat points because they're the martial that can ignore Str (which can open up opportunities with your Archetype, like a 16 casting stat) and being Dex-based makes them solid at ranged combat (say if the campaign's often in the wilderness). Might even want Eldritch Archer and if the front line's too crowded, Archer Archetype has Parting Shot to ensure you get at least one good Sneak Attack attempt per round (at least until you can position yourself in melee, taking advantage of a Rogue's flexibility, maybe with a Free Hand weapon & Blazons of Shared Power). Another positive for Thief is how some high-level Rogue abilities tie into Dex/Stealth (plus it'll expand your horizons after playing Barbarian).
Maybe gave you more questions that answer, but hopefully they'll guide you toward a fun experience. Cheers.
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Another fun fact about the Rogue Ruffien
if you somehow get a natural weapon with a decent attack
he makes a great wrestler
grabbing makes the enemy off-guard, which means you can make a suplex - as a sneak-attack
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The Thief rogue is generally regarded as the most straightforward and powerful racket. Dex to damage is very good. That said, the benefits of Thief rogue are at their peak at low level when that bonus from Dex is a big part of your total damage. At later levels Striking runes, extra Sneak Attack and weapon specialization also start adding up, and the Dex part of the pie is relatively smaller.
Also important is that the rogue overall is a really solid class, so all of the rackets are still playable.
One key feat is Gang Up (level 6). If you have 1-2 other melee characters in the party it makes flanking much much easier, which I think steals a bit of thunder from scoundrel. But shutting down enemy reactions can be a game-changer particularly for the casters in the party.
Rogues aren't the very best class for Athletics/Trip although it's not totally off the table. The obvious way is ruffian and go hard on strength. But ruffian weapon options aren't really better than the weapons all rogues can use anyway. And dexterity + light armor is overall nicer than medium armor, because you end up with better reflex saves and thievery/stealth skills.
So another option could be to go scoundrel, go mainly dexterity but also invest from your 4 boosts at level 1,5,10 into strength. You won't be the absolute best at athletics but you'll still be solid at it, and keep more of the traditional good rogue stuff (skills, defenses). You could use for example a kukri (finesse agile trip) and a shield and be really obnoxious to enemies.
I've played a thief rogue with bastion archetype to get more shield reactions and it was pretty effective, I was really hard to hurt.
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I realized if I really wanted to Trip I dont even need to be a Ruffian or have any STR. Couldn't I just take Slamdown at 12 as a Thief or Scoundrel and be good? Essentially could Trip with my free hand while wielding a Rapier or something?
Crashing Slam
Yes, there are some archetypes that offer it, Mauler, Thlipit Contestant, Rivethun Invoker.I played an unarmed ruffian focused on grapple and trip, it was a lot of fun to control the battlefield, and the damage (stumbling stance) was comparable to our barbarian.
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Another fun fact about the Rogue Ruffien
if you somehow get a natural weapon with a decent attack
he makes a great wrestler
grabbing makes the enemy off-guard, which means you can make a suplex - as a sneak-attack
To be fair who really expects to be suplexed from the shadows?
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To be fair who really expects to be suplexed from the shadows?Another fun fact about the Rogue Ruffien
if you somehow get a natural weapon with a decent attack
he makes a great wrestler
grabbing makes the enemy off-guard, which means you can make a suplex - as a sneak-attack
How about an RKO out of nowhere!
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There are some corner cases to think about.
What if you go ahead of you flanking buddy, but after the enemy; how to achieve off-guard? The first level feat Twin Feint (requires dual weapon weilding) does this. Regardless of whether the first strike hits or not, the second swing is against off-guard.
Creatures that cannot be flanked (rare, but they still exist). Gang-up fails against this. Twin Feint works against this, but so does the tenth level Thief-Racket feat: Precise Debilitations. This either gives you +2d6 precision damage _or_ makes the enemy off-guard until the end of your next turn.
Again, the difficulty of obtaining off-guard is going to depend on circumstances & party composition. The advice above may be unnecessary.
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He appears to be geared towards Intimidation in order to Off-Guard, which isn't great IMO as that can only last 1 round unless there was a FA that could automatically extend the duration of that Frightened by another round. The other issue is that Demoralizing takes an action, Gang Up for a 6th level feat appears to be a must have and would help avoid Intimidation, however if I am ever in the situation where I cant get a flanking buddy then I would be forced to spend an action trying to Denoralize which may have a 50% of succeeding.
I know I'm a little late to the party, but bear with me.
First, the primary method of getting foes Off Guard for ALL Rogue Rackets is flanking. This will be your bread and butter, the other options are just nice backups for when you can't flank. And yes, Gang Up makes this a thousand times easier, so is even better.
Having said that, when you need another option Demoralize and Feint are pretty good options. As a few people have said, you could just trip your opponent and then they're off guard to everyone - as well as taking a -2 to hit, needing to take an action to stand before they can move, and that stand action provoking reactions based on movements - so it's honestly a great action anyway. And honestly, Rogues have so many skills and skill feats that any Rogue can reasonably attempt a trip.
However one thing to note is that the TRIP ACTION, along with all Athletics maneuvers, has the Attaack trait. So if you trip an enemy and then attack them you'll be attacking with the Multiple Attack Penalty. Yes they'll be flat footed, and yes you're probably using an agile weapon so you're only attacking with an effective -2 compared to your first attack, but it's still a penalty.
Meanwhile the FEINT action does NOT have the Attack trait. So when you feint an enemy they're flat footed and your next attack doesn't come with that -4 penalty, meaning you're attacking with an effective +2 instead of an effective -2, which is 4 points better than it would be on a trip.
If you go the Intimidation route and take DREAD STRIKER then not only does DEMORALIZE not have the Attack trait, but the enemy becomes Frightened as well. This means you don't take the -4 on your next attack, and the enemy's AC goes down by 3 thanks to Flat-Footed and Frightened, meaning you attack with an effective +3 , which is 5 higher than if you had tripped the enemy.
All those "effective bonuses" to hit mean you're more likely to hit, and to land a crit, and remember Sneak Attack doubles on a crit in PF2E. Your Damage, your Debilitating Strike and your Critical Specializations on your weapons all rely on landing Sneak Attacks, so getting those hits in makes a big difference.
I'm playing a 15th level Scoundrel Rogue in PREY FOR DEATH and I'm using an Intimidate build. I'm dual-wielding Sawtooth Sabres , and I can, as 3 actions, Demoralize a target from afar and then use DUAL-WEAPON BLITZ to get in, deal some damage, and get back out of the melee if I want to. I've taken feats like BATTLE CRY and YOU'RE NEXT to give myself more opportunities to Demoralize enemies in case I want to spend my actions on other things, and I wear a Moderate DREAD RUNE on my armour to keep some enemies Frightened. Obviously this isn't exactly the build you'd use, but you can see how it can work.
Now it's worth noting after all that that this is a Team game. Just because you'll do more damage using Demoralize or Feint doesn't mean they're actually better than Trip. If you can trip an enemy who's standing between the Fighter and the Barbarian, you're not just giving yourself a bonus and the enemy a penalty, you're also giving your teammates a free attack with Reactive Strike. You're also preventing the enemy from charging the Wizard since they'd first have to spend an action standing up. Maybe Trip IS the best option for your character .
But here's the really great thing about Rogues, You CAN do it all. You get twice as many skill upgrades and skill feats as other classes, so if you want to invest in Intimidation, Deception and Athletics there's really no reason you can't do all 3. By level 11 you can be an expert in 5 skills and a master in 4, even without any multiclassing or other feats that give extra proficiency upgrades. As you said, by level 10 it also doesn't matter as much if you're dependant on multiple attributes, you could have a good STR, DEX, CON and CHA all at once if you want to.
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Gang Up is over-rated. It makes flanking marginally easier. Its real strength is allowing the odd man out to benefit from flanking as well. That's nice, but it's only about as good as the opportunity cost of other options. If you have a party that is actively working with you, you might not even notice the lack of the feat.
I'm playing a Large awakened giant spider rogue that skipped the feat in favor of Light Step. It allows me to squeeze down 5 foot hallways or squeeze past allies in small combat areas. That would normally be treated as difficult terrain, but Light Step allows me to ignore it entirely. And I'm still almost always able to get flanking with most of my allies. It also pairs well with Swift Sneak, allowing to to Sneak through thick underbrush and the like at full speed.
I never looked back.
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Gang Up is over-rated. It makes flanking marginally easier. Its real strength is allowing the odd man out to benefit from flanking as well. That's nice, but it's only about as good as the opportunity cost of other options. If you have a party that is actively working with you, you might not even notice the lack of the feat.
I'm playing a Large awakened giant spider rogue that skipped the feat in favor of Light Step. It allows me to squeeze down 5 foot hallways or squeeze past allies in small combat areas. That would normally be treated as difficult terrain, but Light Step allows me to ignore it entirely. And I'm still almost always able to get flanking with most of my allies. It also pairs well with Swift Sneak, allowing to to Sneak through thick underbrush and the like at full speed.
I never looked back.
Gang up is not overrated. It lets the Rogue stand in range of the Champion/Guardian while still providing everyone with flanking against big enemies, instead of having to be off on their own out of range of their defensive buddies aid where they can readily get shredded (and a lot farther away from the healer who is behind the tanks, too).
The fact that they buffed it in the remaster is utterly baffling (just like the fort save buff that Rogues got).
Why is the champion or guardian not flanking with the rogue in the first place? Seems like a failing of basic teamwork, unless you're fighting very large creatures (at which point I do admit that's a win for Gang Up).
The rogues I've played have never been in the same parry as a champion or guardian, so that was not something I had considered.
I still think people glow up the feat more than it's worth.
The fact that they buffed it in the remaster is utterly baffling (just like the fort save buff that Rogues got).
Well, we can agree on that point at least.
Another fun fact about the Rogue Ruffien
if you somehow get a natural weapon with a decent attack
he makes a great wrestler
grabbing makes the enemy off-guard, which means you can make a suplex - as a sneak-attack
That can be very good, but it's always important to remember that there's no such thing as a natural weapon, and the racket ability does not apply to unarmed attacks. They specifically need a decent Agile or Finesse Unarmed Attack.
Why is the champion or guardian not flanking with the rogue in the first place? Seems like a failing of basic teamwork, unless you're fighting very large creatures (at which point I do admit that's a win for Gang Up).
The rogues I've played have never been in the same parry as a champion or guardian, so that was not something I had considered.
This is about huge/gargantuan creatures, yes. Technically also large ones if you're flanking on the diagonal corners, but that case can be avoided with positioning. There is no avoiding it with huge+ creatures.
Considering those are often "boss" enemies that can smash a Rogue very hard, being in range of your ally's defensive reactions is a big win. I've GMd groups where they had a Shield of Reckoning Champion and it stops huge amounts of damage in higher level play and makes the Rogue a LOT harder to take out.
If your encounters are primarily against medium/large enemies it will rarely come up, same as if you never have someone with tank reactions. Though being able to have everyone grouped up closer to your healer is also nice given they may not be able to get around the enemy safely to Battle Medicine and with Gang Up letting you stand next to the Fighter, the healer can just stay on that side of the enemy and not have to. :)
It just removes positioning as an issue in helpful ways.
Well, we can agree on that point at least.
Yeah, for sure. This was a good feat when it gave the Rogue flat footed, but maybe not worth it depending on party composition. Now you're also giving it to potentially several allies at the same time. I do not understand the rationale behind the buff at all.
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Gang Up is over-rated.
Gang up with a normal weapon is quite good but not incredibly so.
Gang up with a reach weapon is very, very, very good. Suddenly the rogue is in a nice protected spot in the middle of the party and just about everybody has flank and there are no Conga Lines Of DOOM.
With the downside that the entire group can be easily hit by AoEs :-(
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The fact that they buffed it in the remaster is utterly baffling (just like the fort save buff that Rogues got).
Three options spring to mind
1) Everybody "Knew" how underpowered and deficient the poor rogue was so they obviously needed a buff2) Somebody at Paizo has the same love of rogues that James Jacobs has for dinosaurs and managed to sneak it past review
3) The local Thieves Guild of Seattle made Paizo an "Offer they couldn't refuse"
Gang up with a reach weapon is very, very, very good.
So good that it's worth giving up sneak attack? There's only, like, two common weapons that rogues are proficient with and that qualify for sneak attack.
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Gang up with a reach weapon is very, very, very good.So good that it's worth giving up sneak attack? There's only, like, two common weapons that rogues are proficient with and that qualify for sneak attack.
Fortunately the good uncommon ones like the bladed scarf have trivial access conditions that anyone in the party can fulfill for you if you don't fulfill them yourself.
Also dancer's spear is both common and a great weapon for rogues
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Gang up with a reach weapon is very, very, very good.So good that it's worth giving up sneak attack? There's only, like, two common weapons that rogues are proficient with and that qualify for sneak attack.
Absolutely not. I use Dancers spear unless some other option is available in a particular campaign
Oh, the campaign we will be playing is Spore War. This was important I think. Still waiting on party composition though.
Spoiler free based on the AP name & players guide: Expect demons and expect diseases. Plan appropriately.
This is also an "Elf" AP, so if you are an Elf or have a strong connection to Kyonin, it's going to help tie you into the plot more easily. Some of the AP backgrounds are quite good.
More info below speaking as a player in this AP right now, skip over if you don't want to learn anything not in the players guide. I won't spoil the plot, but it will spoil the kinds of threats you'll face.
Alchemy is REALLY good due to all the diseases and how many things have weaknesses. If someone can fit it in, Alchemist archetype and Advanced Alchemy will let you make things like Antiplague, which last all day and provide bonuses against some very nasty effects. (Antifungal Salves are also from this AP and they're likewise relevant for the same reasons.)
A Medicine user is recommended for the same reasons. Robust Recovery is a good skill feat in this AP because what it treats comes up frequently and some of those are quite nasty.
Something like Fungus Lore and Survival will come up frequently as well. It's a good idea for someone in the party to be good at that, speaking as someone in a party where no one is good at Survival.
Thanks very helpful! Would a Wildwood Halfing be a good choice for this AP? Or something else?"You hail from deep within a jungle or forest, and you've learned how to use your small size to wriggle through undergrowth and other obstacles. You ignore any difficult terrain caused by plants and fungi, such as bushes, vines, and undergrowth."
You'd have to ask your GM if they can integrate it into the story and such, but that ability will definitely come up.
3) The local Thieves Guild of Seattle made Paizo an "Offer they couldn't refuse"
Rumor has it, the urchins of the Pike Place Pickpockets are not the only thieves in the city. They have been seen taking a portion of their weekly earnings into the Underground late at night to pay off a much more shadowy organization.
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Gang Up is over-rated.
I'm playing a Large awakened giant spider rogue that skipped the feat in favor of Light Step.
I never looked back.
Gang up is not overrated. It lets the Rogue stand in range of the Champion/Guardian while still providing everyone with flanking against big enemies, instead of having to be off on their own out of range of their defensive buddies aid where they can readily get shredded (and a lot farther away from the healer who is behind the tanks, too).
I think like everything it's an opportunity cost. If you're reliably getting flanks safely without it then it's not the feat for you. There are other things that might make more of a difference. But it does make positioning easier for you, and for your party, and that can be a powerful effect.
I'm currently playing a 5-player game where 2 of us have Outflank. This means that of the 10 possible flanking pairs , 7 of them don't have to worry about being in the correct flanking position. It's also often possible for the 2 "Outflankers" to position ourselves so that the entire party can take advantage of this regardless of who they attack. So 2 players taking a feat allows for a LOT of flexibility for the whole party, allowing us to use reactions on one another and set up AoE effect areas on the enemy more easily.
That said, the other 3 party members don't have it. In fact it would be pretty pointless for them to get it, even if we had another Rogue in the party.
I'm currently playing a 5-player game where 2 of us have Outflank. This means that of the 10 possible flanking pairs , 7 of them don't have to worry about being in the correct flanking position. It's also often possible for the 2 "Outflankers" to position ourselves so that the entire party can take advantage of this regardless of who they attack. So 2 players taking a feat allows for a LOT of flexibility for the whole party, allowing us to use reactions on one another and set up AoE effect areas on the enemy more easily.
Is Outflank in PF2? I use it in PF1 on my Rogue (along with Butterfly's Sting) with a Warpriest that has a Scythe and it works great, but I wasn't aware it existed in PF2.
Gang Up in PF1 was itself significantly weaker, needing 13 INT, Combat Expertise, and two allies threatening it just to give flanking to you (and Outflank existed as competition). In PF2 it's a single class feat that only needs one ally and also gives flanking to the ally. Being able to stand next to the Guardian while giving both yourself and the Guardian flanking is really good.
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Gang up is often though as an offensive feat.
But imo it really isn't, it's either a defensive feat or an action economy feat:
In the majority of occasions, people can stride and gain flanking, so the thing that Gang up offers is either defensive:
"Get flanking while staying near the people who can guard and heal you and not 20ft away"
Or action economy: "get flanking without spending the action to move".
In general you’re right. But it becomes offensive when normal flanking isn’t available ( choke point, opponent flying, opponent with back to wall, etc). These happen a reasonable amount of the time IME
Is Outflank in PF2?
Sorry I meant GANG UP, I just had a brain fart and typed "Outflank". That whole paragraph was talking about Gang Up for PF2E, not Outflank for PF1E =P
If we just consider the feats available at 6th level, while there are some interesting ones, the ones I found equally or more interesting appear to be tied to specific APs.
What other feat options would someone really consider besides Gang Up?
For non-AP related feats, for me, it's only Light Step. But I'm also looking at this through the lens of playing a Thief Rogue. If I were playing a Mastermind rogue (for some reason I can't really fathom) then I might consider Analyze weakness.
I don't know how I forgot about Skirmish strike. It's another good option, though I wouldn't necessarily say it's better or worse than Gang Up.
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I don't know how I forgot about Skirmish strike. It's another good option, though I wouldn't necessarily say it's better or worse than Gang Up.
The main issue a rogue has on a turn to turn basis is “how will I get my sneak attack”.
Gang up is essentially “you will have flat footed + sneak attack 90%+ of the time if you have another melee character in the party”. It solves your biggest rogue problem at ~no action cost, with few limitations, and even buffs your buddy. If you have another melee character in the party, you take gang up 100% of the time and it’s an outright misplay not to.
Skirmish strike is a good feat, a solid metastrike that lets you close some ground or force an enemy to spend actions to chase you (though enemy reach is a serious problem especially if you’re not a ruffian). What it doesn’t do is solve your main problem.
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As i said earlier, I find Gang-up mostly to be used defensively: i.e. keep the rogue close to the party to be protected instead of him being on the other side of the mob and probably out of range (and also probably surrounded).
But while Gang-up is an extremely strong feat, I do not think it's on the level of mandatory that many people elevate it to.
Usually, you won't be spending 3 actions attacking, and so, one action CAN be used to gain off-guard through different means (move across, tumble, feints, etc depending on how your rogue is built).
Except with Gang Up you can use that third action to do something else like Dirty Trick/Demoralize/Battle Medicine/etc because you don't need to work your way around the huge creature to get flank. You get it automatically because the Fighter showed up.
As it happens, in my 3 current campaigns (2 where I am a player and 1 I GM) we have a healthy spread of 1 gang-up rogue (spore wars) 1 skirmish strike rogue (KM) and 1 dedication feat (homebrew campaign) and all 3 rogues can definately sneak attack every round.
I mean... yeah? Gang Up Rogue is giving everyone else sneak attack all the time as long as they're attacking the same target with no effort.