Disappointed and bored with my Thaumaturge. Any ideas?

[Harles]

I've got interesting roleplaying potential and I like the character personality, but I'm not finding him very interesting from a play perspective. We've been playing weekly for about a year and just reached 9th level. I'm finding that most encounters go about the same, my turns are very quick and don't seem especially impactful, and my increases in level are pretty flat and boring.

Round 1: Exploit vulnerability, raise shield, move toward target.
Round 2: Raise shield, move into position to flank, attack.

My turns take about 30 seconds to complete while I wait for 10+ minutes for my turn to come around again, just to do the same thing.

My 9th level abilities? I can spend an action to get +2 to hit on one target until the start of my next turn. While the casters are getting 5th rank spells.

There's gotta be something more, right?

I'm a mirror/weapon thaumaturge. I try my best to use the mirror to set up flanks, transport myself to hard-to-reach locations, etc. But those opportunities just don't come up often.

[QuidEst]

Not sure how you're raising a shield with a mirror/weapon Thaumaturge, unless you're forgoing the Implement's Empowerment bonus.

I'd probably drop the shield anyway. You're spending a lot of actions on it when you're using a class that's already eating up an Exploit Vulnerability action. Or, maybe grab the new Shield Implement- then you can combine Exploit and Raise into one action, freeing yourself up some.

Weapon is kind of the "Fighter Lite" implement, and a bit... dry. Maybe consider one of the others that would fit your character better?

What I did with my Thaumaturges:
- Used Sorcerer multiclass (pre-remaster) to get a bite attack with temp HP, combined with Mirror and Amulet for somebody who oppressively outlasted enemies.
- Used Undead Master to direct meat shields around combat while causing suffering as a Kuthite scorpion whip user.
- Used Swarmkeeper to deploy a swarm of rats at problems out of reach or groups of weak enemies on a Chalice user.
- Just leaned into the roleplay side of things on a Bell user.

Even without Free Archetype, it's a class that can very easily afford to take an archetype with their class feats.

[Tridus]

Yeah I'm not sure how you're using the mirror and a weapon when one hand is full of shield, unless you're using a buckler and that really isn't worth the actions. The only time a shield is worth using on Thaumaturge is if its the Shield implement in Battlecry.

You need to give yourself something else to do. My weapon/tome Thaumaturge was really good at Athletics, and I'd go around tripping things (standing up provokes, and the ranged Rogue really loved the prone enemies). Could do it at reach with a Whip, and that had a Shifting rune on it so if I needed some other weapon type I could easily have it.

That's not the only option, but it sounds like all you're doing is raising shield and striking. Use some skill boosts or an archetype to diversify your options somewhat.

[Harles]

I took a shield dedication or something that lets me manipulate objects (implements) while holding a shield.
I'm as close as it comes to a frontline warrior, so that extra AC has been important.

[Red Griffyn]

Can you give a little more context:

1.) What feats have you taken?

2.) Are you willing to rebuild the entire thing? What build rules are you following?

3.) What ancestry do you have?

4.) What would be an exciting play-style for you? Do you like doing lots of damage, do you like support via buff/debuff, do you like ranged vs. melee, etc.

5.) What is your party composition?

We can suggest some better ideas after you answer those questions. However, some general thoughts:

Thaumaturges are a fairly action constrained class and have a reduced attack bonus for half their levels in exchange for great CHA based skills/Recall Knowledge and really big static damage numbers. It sounds like you've picked some implements that exasperate that (e.g., mirror requiring actions to use or weapons that don't really do that much since the reaction is limited to the target of your exploit vulnerabilities) and a playstyle that makes it worse (e.g., raising shield).

Seeking action compression via attack style (e.g., ranged vs. melee), feats (e.g., spirit warrior giving a pseudo flurry of blows or a mature animal companion from beastmaster/cavalier giving a free move), passive implements that don't push you towards burning actions (e.g., regalia/tome), or seeking other '1 action/third actions' other than raise shield that you find more satisfying (e.g., intimidation to demoralize enemies, which everyone can benefit from).

In class you should also pick up sympathetic vulnerabilities at L6 to reduce the number of times you need to exploit vulnerability.

Consider an example playstyle change:

- Take Cavalier at L2, Animal Upgrades at L4/L8, Sympathetic Vulnerabilities at L6. Now you effectively have a free move once per round while mounted (essentially what you would have spent 1 action on the mirror implement to do), one-two actions to strike, and 1 free action for a demoralize. If it is a FA game you could also add in Spirit Warrior since cavalier has skill feats so you could exit by L4, and pick up the spirit warrior dedication/L6 feat Cutting Heaven, Crushing Earth with a ancestry with a ranged unarmed strike to be a switch hitter. That build would get a free stride via the companion, a 1 action 2xstrike action compression, and still have 2 actions left over to do w/e (cast a spell, bon mot + demoralize, etc.). Swap mirror to something else like tome that you don't really care about having in hand and is more passive.

Ultimately, you also have to keep in mind that a good chunk of the classes power budget is put into being a skill monkey/Face type CHA based martial. So they aren't supposed to be some kind of combat powerhouse because they can be really good out of combat. They are more just a solid/reliable contributor.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

I was disappointed by the weapon implement as well, i retrained it as soon as i got reactive strike from my free archetype (marshal).

The mirror is also the only implement that actively gets worse when reaching adept level, something you could maybe ask your DM about to fix.

What i really liked was intensify vulnerability with the tome implement, sure strike for an action each turn. The other tome benefits are also quite nice, flexible skills can cover a lot of things in a campaign. We were stranded in a desert, master survival the next day saved us quite often.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Yep, I played a Thaumaturge with a Weapon Implement. I…retired the character. Had lots of role playing potential, and the character was fun in terms of personality but the “schtick”…didn’t….stick.

Interesting to see that folx are mentioning lots of things that just aren’t anything to do with being a Thaumaturge to make the Thaumaturge more… interesting or make it *shine*. Even to the point of asking what *ancestry* you are.

And if the Thaumaturge can afford to use their feats to do anything *but* lean further into Thaumaturgyness its no wonder I dropped out.

It *seems* like a really interesting class, but in the end, I found it to be a skillful beatstick looking for a party elsewhere. It had a lot of *narrative* potential to be sure, but nothing particularly cinematic or wowing.

By all means take any of the ideas offered here, to wrap around your central Thaumaturge - Beastmasters, Swarmkeepers, Undead mooks, mounted shenanigans - its just a shame you can’t rely on the actual chassis to make the theme pop.

I love that when the casters are getting their 5th rank spells, you can do +2 damage, for the whole turn! If you spend an Action! Awesome!

[Deriven Firelion]

This is why I play casters. Martials get so boring level after level of doing the same thing. The rogue is one of the only martial classes I enjoy because they have skills to play with and interesting combat abilities that help the party and you.

Thaumaturge looked like a class starving for actions, like a weaker, less powerful version of the magus. Very convoluted playstyle for not much bang for the buck.

[Harles]

I'll try to give some more context, but I don't have access to the character sheet at the moment (he's stuck on my GM's Foundry server).

I'm human. Took mirror as my first implement, weapon as my second. (It helped to be able to have reactive strike - no one else in the party had it. Mirror seemed to give interesting options - like cloning myself into a difficult to reach location, moving out of a grapple, etc.)

I'm the only frontline character. The rest of the party is a witch, gunslinger, and rogue.

I won't remember the exact names, but my free archetype was based around shield use.

I do have sympathetic vulnerabilities so I can exploit weakness on as many enemies as possible.

The GM said we could houserule more interesting abilities for 9th level, because they seem underwhelming to him too. He'd probably be up for a rebuild as well.

[QuidEst]

To me, Thaumaturge is a class that has all its core elements in its features rather than needing to use it's feats to flesh them out. It's not like Fighter or Ranger where you need to get most of the class from the feats. But, you always want to come in with your own explanation, because generic Thaumaturge flavor is about as vague and bland as Wizard.

The Sorcerer multiclass got his powers from Abadar and Lamashtu, two opposed deities that he worshipped. Every class feature, implement, and feat was flavored as coming from one or the other. The archetype just provided an upgrade to the ancestry bite attack.

The Undead Master used a ritual to get his Esoteric Lore knowledge from the secrets of the stones he worked on, linking them through occult magic to his hammer. Those secrets gave him his Exploit Vulnerability and knowledge of undead rituals. Undead Master just provided better undead than the in-class rituals.

The Swarmkeeper used his ability to talk to rats to form an information network. Esoteric Lore was "rat consultation", with the rats providing secret weaknesses of enemies. Implements were various minor blessed relics he won off priests in games he cheated at. Swarmkeeper just provided more rats mechanically than the in-class familiar.

The unarchetyped one used a song of all that was in the world to glean knowledge she couldn't otherwise know, and mis-sang parts of that song to disrupt enemies and make false weaknesses real for a short time.

[Harles]

I like my character concept. Each time he duplicates himself from the mirror, a different reflection comes out, each with a slightly different history and personality.

So if I end up rebuilding him, that will just be a bigger deviation from the previous incarnation.

[Easl]

Harles wrote:

I'm the only frontline character. The rest of the party is a witch, gunslinger, and rogue.

This could be part of the problem. As the only tanky character, the repetition of '(1) EV, stride, raise shield, (2) step, strike, raise shield' is not really being caused by your class, it's being caused by your role in the party. You have to move because you want to stop the melee enemies from moving to reach your ranged friends. You have to raise shield because you're probably the only target for a lot of melee attacks, and you could go down quick from being ganged up on without the shield's AC and DR.

So I'm not sure there's a "build" way out of that, but a couple of minor things spring to mind here. The first is that witch: maybe with the right change of spells, they could combo with you to make your turns more fun. Maybe give you a cool buff or control the battlefield in a way that frees up your move or shield actions to be used for Thaumaturgy stuff like mirror tricks or even just RK. The second one is a more party-centered riff of the same; are there tactics the party can try which don't force you into tank role? Maybe let the enemy come and instead set up some sort of tactical trap for them? I know this is somewhat vague and general, but the overall point is that if you're unhappy with your party role as tank, then try to fix that rather than messing with class feats etc.

Having said all that, EV + IE + strike IS pretty much kinda the way the class is supposed to function. There's wand if you no longer want to be melee, but IIRC it's considered somewhat weak.

[John R.]

Easl wrote:

This could be part of the problem. As the only tanky character, the repetition of '(1) EV, stride, raise shield, (2) step, strike, raise shield' is not really being caused by your class, it's being caused by your role in the party.

This is a great point. Thaumaturge is generally not a tank. It's another rogue-type of class. If you do want it to act as a tank, you don't even have the right implement, being the amulet or shield. You probably need to either re-build your character or just not tank anymore. You're likely no more suited to tank than the party rogue....or even the gunslinger. In fact, the rogue can actually wield a shield without it being a detriment to their class's functionality.

[Dragonchess Player]

+1 on trying to use the thaumaturge to "tank" without the amulet or shield implement will probably be disappointing. Heck, a Remastered swashbuckler with Elegant Buckler (and eventually Buckler Dance) can probably "tank" better than a basic thaumaturge (while also providing several options, depending on the style)...

[Red Griffyn]

So it sounds like the mirror implement is sort of a fixed concept in your build. One alternative option to consider is you can pick up the mirror implement via a Thaumaturge MC at L6 and skip the entire thaumaturge chassis if there is another classes play pattern that you would like more?

You could be a rogue, monk, champion, fighter, etc. that would benefit from a 15ft teleport, have more action compression for your shield, have more generically applicable reactions, improved AC scaling, etc. It won't necessarily be a better skill monkey though.

Otherwise I think a thaumaturge MC champion can actually be relatively good for you. The champion archetype provides scaling heavy armor, focus point options for domain spells/lay on hands, champion reactions (e.g., obedience to punish people that hit you as the front liner if you need a more selfish champion reaction), and a free rune (great with a switch hitter thrown weapon so you have a ranged option to avoid having to move), and a L1/L2 feat that gives a stride + raise shield + strike action compression. I would ditch the weapon implement and switch to regalia (which can be a weapon) and gives a lot of passive bonuses to skills and damage as well. If you can get scaling proficiency/access to the Tamchal Chakram it is a great switch hit finesse thrown weapon (With deadly d6 and agile as well).

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Using a shield (without it being the shield implement) is a costly descision as it reduces your damage quite a lot - implements empowerment does not allow a shield in the other hand.

Likewise using thaumaturge archetype on a class like champion, which usually has either 1h+shield or 2h weapon, does not work - you have to handle your implement (need a hand).

[Red Griffyn]

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

Using a shield (without it being the shield implement) is a costly descision as it reduces your damage quite a lot - implements empowerment does not allow a shield in the other hand.

Likewise using thaumaturge archetype on a class like champion, which usually has either 1h+shield or 2h weapon, does not work - you have to handle your implement (need a hand).

It works perfectly well when your shield is the mirror implement.

The requirements for a mirror implement are:

Quote:

Mirror implements represent misdirection, illusion, and sleight of hand, bending and shifting a perspective and the way you look at things. While larger mirrors hold the same mystic connotations, thaumaturges always choose small, portable, handheld mirrors as implements so they can use them easily while adventuring. Mirror implements are associated with the harrow suit of keys, and the astrological signs of the stranger and the swallow.

So we have 3 properties to qualify:

- Small -> this is a relative word whose size should be framed by the 'can use them easily while adventuring'. A shield qualifies. A Large mirror, for me, would be like a massive hallway mirror/bedroom mirror and the guidance for 'small' is just to avoid picking something immobile like an entire hallway mirrored wall to set-up a trap.

- Portable -> a shield is portable.

- Handheld -> A shield is handheld (strapped and handheld to be specific) AND this is not a "H"eld Item rule reference so it doesn't have to be specifically in the "H"eld magic item category to count.

Therefore a shield CAN qualify as a mirror so long as it can preform the function of a mirror.

Turns out they can as evidenced in the system which explicitly has 3 mirror shields all made out of silver and or mithral and at least 16-17 other instances of mirror items across a variety of item categories. Here are the shield ones:

- Turnabout Shield has a mirror like finish and is level appropriate and you can throw a shield rune onto it if you want to block with it.

- Reflecting Shield

- Evil-Reflecting shield

(FYI Mithral/Dawnsilver in the system is described as a slightly different hue of silver).

Historically mirrors in REAL LIFE were just polished pieces of silver and the game clearly acknowledges that across armor, weapons, shields, and items.

If this all sounds familiar to you, its because we had a lengthy debate about it HERE. I don't think anyone made any logically consistent and sound arguments against my position that were not thoroughly rebutted. I'd suggest you go re-open that debate there instead of derailing this thread if you have an interest in further debating the topic.

Since the shield can be an implement it qualifies as holding an 'other' implement for the purposes of Implement Empowerment and there is no conflict. This is also true for multiclasses into thaumaturge since you can have your favourite choices of 1D8 1H weapon to pick from.

TLDR: Harles you can have a L2 silver shield that is polished to a mirror like finish (or use the turnabout shield if your GM requires an explicit item to enable it vs. polishing your own). As your mirror implement, your shield will not reduce your implement empowerment damage or do any other things suggested by others in this thread to your DPR output or introduce additional hand issues (beyond you having to hold it).

[Harles]

So - on top of everything else - I shouldn't have been getting implement's empowerment anyway?

This is just the worst.

Honestly, we're almost done with this adventure, midway in the AP. I think I'll just retire the character at the end of this adventure and create something else.

[Red Griffyn]

Harles wrote:

So - on top of everything else - I shouldn't have been getting implement's empowerment anyway?

This is just the worst.

Honestly, we're almost done with this adventure, midway in the AP. I think I'll just retire the character at the end of this adventure and create something else.

Implements empowerment works in the following situations:

1.) An implement (any that could be a weapon)
2.) 1x1H weapon + an implement (non-weapon)
3.) 1x1H weapon + an implement (any that could be a weapon)
4.) 2 Implements (any that could be a weapon or not)

You just can't hold more than 1x1H non-implement weapon.

So mirror shield + any 1H weapon is fine. If you were using a shield, weapon, and 'mirror implement' you would have been 'outside of RAW' or should have been spending actions to swap hands. Just make it a silver mirror polished shield and move on with life.

[Claxon]

Harles wrote:

I'm the only frontline character. The rest of the party is a witch, gunslinger, and rogue.

I won't remember the exact names, but my free archetype was based around shield use.

You're sacrificing stuff to be a "front line" character on a chassis that isn't really meant to do it at all. I suspect that is part of your dissatisfaction and you don't realize it. A thaumaturge simply isn't meant to play defense. You need another character to actual be the front line meat wall taking hits, or at least to be another class.

And sinking more options into archetype or free archetype really only exacerbates the problem. You're spending resources trying to be good at something the class just isn't good at.

The thaumaturge is less a frontliner than even a rogue is.

[Tridus]

Red Griffyn wrote:

It works perfectly well when your shield is the mirror implement.

No it doesn't, especially not now that there is an actual shield implement. Don't confuse them by starting this up again.

[Red Griffyn]

Tridus wrote:

Red Griffyn wrote:

It works perfectly well when your shield is the mirror implement.

No it doesn't, especially not now that there is an actual shield implement. Don't confuse them by starting this up again.

Yes it does. Implements have specific language that define what they can be or not. They DO NOT have language that says "and... because another implement can also be a shield you cannot pick a shield".

You're inventing a rule out of thin air.

Don't confuse the community by pretending there is RAW that doesn't exist.

[Tridus]

"You can polish a shield so it functions as a perfect mirror that somehow never gets impacted by being used as a shield in combat". And you say other people are inventing things that don't exist?

You're doing some classic rules lawyering to create an interaction that doesn't work and clearly isn't intended to. It absolutely doesn't work. We've already been through this ad nauseum.

[Northern Spotted Owl]

There are a bunch of two-in-one implements that are logically consistent. Any implement could also be regalia. You could have a tome with mirrored cover. A spiked shield could be both a shield and a weapon.

But those are all too-clever bits of rules lawyering that only a particularly accommodating DM would accept. The Thaumaturge is designed to require holding one implement in each hand.

In the topic at hand, I’d suggest a champion archetype for a Thaumaturge in a front-liner role. The combination of of lay-on-hands and shield reaction are great additions. Plus, you get access to heavy armor.

[Claxon]

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

There are a bunch of two-in-one implements that are logically consistent. Any implement could also be regalia. You could have a tome with mirrored cover. A spiked shield could be both a shield and a weapon.

But those are all too-clever bits of rules lawyering that only a particularly accommodating DM would accept. The Thaumaturge is designed to require holding one implement in each hand.

In the topic at hand, I’d suggest a champion archetype for a Thaumaturge in a front-liner role. The combination of of lay-on-hands and shield reaction are great additions. Plus, you get access to heavy armor.

Agree with everything you just said.

While there are implements or ways an item could fit into two implement categories, the class is not intended to actually function that way and as a GM I absolutely rule that each item can only function as one implement.

As to whether a shield could be a mirror implement, there was an argument for it prior to shield being its own implement category. Now since the release of that, I again as a GM wouldn't allow it to be anything else.

Anyways, I agree with the idea that if you want to be a frontliner taking the champion dedication for heavy armor, lay on hands, and some shield reaction feats could be helpful. But the actions spent on using the shield will harm you ability to output damage. The main thing you'd want to grab from champion (IMO) is quick shield block, but it's going to be high level to grab. You might actually be better off with going Bastion archetype if you want shield related stuff, to get earlier access to quick shield block.

[Easl]

Claxon wrote:

Anyways, I agree with the idea that if you want to be a frontliner taking the champion dedication for heavy armor, lay on hands, and some shield reaction feats could be helpful.

It sounded to me like Harles was bored with that exact sort of setup though (i.e. move, raise shield, strike). Frankly I'd recommend to them that they not go champion for their next PC, if their current combat rotation is boring to them. I'd also probably say "don't be a magus" since that also has a somewhat 'I feel obligated to...' action rotation.

If they're still interested in playing a martial, but one that gets away from that rotation, I'd probably suggest swash, barbarian, ranger. Maybe fighter that avoids sword and board (there are plenty of other ways to build one). Or pretty much any caster will get you a different combat rotation. Thaumaturge built very differently is also an option if you like the class features just not the tank role.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I think that one's satisfaction with a thaumaturge all depends on what fantasy you're fulfilling. For me, the thaumaturge is the martial bard I have always wanted.

◈ Great Social Skills
◈ Good Combat Damage no matter what implement I'm using
◈ Great Monster Identification via Esoteric and Diverse Lore
◈ An Okay Smattering of other skills including the magic skills
◈ Mediocre class feats - allowing me to dive deeply into Archetypes in PFS.

And there are so many cool tricks! With Mirror, I've often bypassed things like locked doors or climbing checks if there is a convenient window or ledge within 15 feet. With the Lantern, all becomes visible. With the Tome, I have great knowledge skills. With Regalia, I can easily have the party follow the expert with me (especially when combined with tome!) And I like that with Shield Implement at 5th level, I can raise a shield as a free action when I exploit vulnerability - awesome action economy.

Am I mostly doing the same thing every combat of Exploiting Vulnerability and hitting things? Yeah. But most martials do certain things over and over in combat.

For me, where the Thaumaturge shines is out of combat. And yet, I can still be decent in combat, contributing damage and the like. I have loved the thaumaturge so much that I keep making them, trying out new archetypes and implements. Each one plays differently, but each one is super fun for me.

[Jinglemane]

"Hello, everyone, I'm Jinglemane, lead reporter and publisher of the Mane Event: Your Guide to Lairs, Dares and Hair Cares!"

Jinglemane is perhaps my favorite PFS character to roleplay. He's a poppet who has come to life, and is still adventuring with the child (now a grown up) who wished him to life.

He's a weapon and mirror thaumaturge who often uses his mirror not to flank with himself, but to flank with other members of the party so that they can hit. Jinglemane bounds everywhere with joyful abandon, and while he's absolutely the vainest poppet you'll ever meet, he's also got a huge heart. Because he's a poppet with floppy felt teeth, he 'bites' people with his leiomano, a club covered in shark teeth.

What do I love about him? I love his roleplay energy and the fact that the whole table laughs constantly when I play him. I love how the mirror keeps being a fun trick, and I love the tactical considerations of when and where I use it.

And I love playing up the reporter aspect of his personality... I interview NPCs and fellow players alike for my ridiculous fashion magazine, which sometimes even gets a real story or two. I was lucky enough to win the 'Venture-Gossip Archetype' in the charity auction at GenCon, and that has given me even more out-of-combat investigative potential.

You can see Jinglemane's build if you click on his avatar.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

The other characters that I've created as Thaumaturges are:

◈ Big Jig - A sprite that is a finesse thaumaturge build, leaning deeply into both the tome and regalia implements. He punches from 20 feet away with his Sprite's Spark for frankly disappointing damage, but he's also an incredibly skilled character with a large investment in intelligence as well as charisma. For his archetype, I invested deeply in the Bard Archetype and Versatile Performance. I also went with the Ancestry feat 'Catchy Tune' which makes everyone dance.

◈ Tourist - A Kashrishi who is a natural weapon thaumaturge, always traveling with his tome (aka his tourist guidebook) and his brand new shield implement. He loves to see the world, help people and smack bad guys with his FACE. His archetype is Champion.

◈ Yum Yum Sourpickle - Yum Yum is a goblin who is a simple soul. She bites things, she cooks alchemical foods with the Wandering Chef Archetype and then she bites things again. With her I once again leaned into natural attacks.

★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★

They all have different personalities, implement combinations, archetypes. They're all scrappy in a fight, and yet also good at Skill Challenges and Social Encounters. I've made four thaumaturges so far, and I will likely keep making them because they're the class that is easiest to pair with an archetype, since most thaum class feats aren't essential to making a good thaumaturge.

You just have to have it match your class fantasy. It sounds like your own class fantasy might have been happier with a straight up fighter or even a monk who uses combat maneuvers. Every class is not for every person. I just know that thaumaturge is the martial class that most fits me, just the way that bard is the caster class that most fits me.

Hmm

[Claxon]

Easl wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Anyways, I agree with the idea that if you want to be a frontliner taking the champion dedication for heavy armor, lay on hands, and some shield reaction feats could be helpful.

It sounded to me like Harles was bored with that exact sort of setup though (i.e. move, raise shield, strike). Frankly I'd recommend to them that they not go champion for their next PC, if their current combat rotation is boring to them. I'd also probably say "don't be a magus" since that also has a somewhat 'I feel obligated to...' action rotation.

If they're still interested in playing a martial, but one that gets away from that rotation, I'd probably suggest swash, barbarian, ranger. Maybe fighter that avoids sword and board (there are plenty of other ways to build one). Or pretty much any caster will get you a different combat rotation. Thaumaturge built very differently is also an option if you like the class features just not the tank role.

That's fair.

I would agree the OP doesn't like being the tank, and that Thaumaturge isn't a great chassis for it. Though if they're the only "martial" character changing into any other martial class we still leave them as the one taking the lion's share of damage and changing to a caster would leave the party without a martial. Realistically, it would have been nice for the party if there were a secondary martial, like a rogue to split the enemy focus.

[Red Griffyn]

Tridus wrote:

"You can polish a shield so it functions as a perfect mirror that somehow never gets impacted by being used as a shield in combat". And you say other people are inventing things that don't exist?

You're doing some classic rules lawyering to create an interaction that doesn't work and clearly isn't intended to. It absolutely doesn't work. We've already been through this ad nauseum.

'Classic Rules Lawyering' lol. Its called structuring an argument. You just state things with now reference to RAW and proclaim your interpretation to be correct. Incredulity Fallacies are not 'evidence'.

What is a mirror defined as in game?
- Mirror implement has a few qualifiers but there is not "M"irror definition in the game.

What is a mirror defined as out of game?
- One of many applicable ones include: a reflecting surface, originally of polished metal

What is that metal in historical reference?
- Typically silver, bronze, and copper alloys

Does that metal exist in the System:
- Yes, silver and by extension dawnsilver

Does the game acknowledge that historical fact:
- Yes, it has a number of mirror/reflection themed objects made of silver and dawnsilver.

What is a mirror implement?
- Small, portable, handheld mirrors as implements so they can use them easily while adventuring

Can one of those objects qualify as a mirror?
- Yes, they even use mirrorlike in their descriptions

Is the mirror function intrinsic to the magic of the item or material
- Material

Can we make a non-magic version
- Yes because a polished silver shield literally is equivalent in every way to a small handheld, portable, mirror which would be made of ... POLISHED SILVER.

Is this balanced?
- YES! Further evidenced by the NOW existence of a shield implement proving it was never the intent for 'shields' to somehow be excluded from being implements.

Is this fun?
- Yes the player gets to keep their main character concept focal point of a mirror and can build their layout differently to hopefully enjoy playing the game despite community member RAI homebrew deviations.

Stop derailing the thread and go take it to the other thread where lots of discussion has happened already.

What objects in the game qualifies for those definitions?
Is there precedent in the system for those objects?

[Tactical Drongo]

yeah, the whole party needs a change up of tactics or they need to somehow add a frontliner of sorts

letting the thaumaturge tank is a mediocre idea on a good day
subpar on an average

the new shield implement *can* offset that to *some* degree
but I see it more as additional survivability for a frontliner, not as straightup tank qualifier

of course, one can build around it but as many martials have better life, less MAD and potentially more armor class (the champion and the new guardian sporting all three of those) it is not exactly a big focus core

especiall since OP obviously is no big fan of tank rotation

[Red Griffyn]

Claxon wrote:

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

There are a bunch of two-in-one implements that are logically consistent. Any implement could also be regalia. You could have a tome with mirrored cover. A spiked shield could be both a shield and a weapon.

But those are all too-clever bits of rules lawyering that only a particularly accommodating DM would accept. The Thaumaturge is designed to require holding one implement in each hand.

In the topic at hand, I’d suggest a champion archetype for a Thaumaturge in a front-liner role. The combination of of lay-on-hands and shield reaction are great additions. Plus, you get access to heavy armor.

Agree with everything you just said.

While there are implements or ways an item could fit into two implement categories, the class is not intended to actually function that way and as a GM I absolutely rule that each item can only function as one implement.

As to whether a shield could be a mirror implement, there was an argument for it prior to shield being its own implement category. Now since the release of that, I again as a GM wouldn't allow it to be anything else.

Anyways, I agree with the idea that if you want to be a frontliner taking the champion dedication for heavy armor, lay on hands, and some shield reaction feats could be helpful. But the actions spent on using the shield will harm you ability to output damage. The main thing you'd want to grab from champion (IMO) is quick shield block, but it's going to be high level to grab. You might actually be better off with going Bastion archetype if you want shield related stuff, to get earlier access to quick shield block.

No one is advocating that they have a 2 in 1 implement. I'm stating that some implements can be multiple types of objects. A shield could be a mirror, could be a weapon with shield spikes, could be a shield for blocking I'm not saying it can be multiple implements in one item to free up a hand, but that they CAN have a shield that is a mirror implement OR a shield that is also a weapon implement or a shield that is also a regalia implement.

Implements have a list of permissive/exclusive requirements. Any object that qualifies should be allowed. Just because there is a shield implement doesn't mean ALL shields have to be shield implements. The current design specifically gives you the ability to select higher level magic items that are necessarily dual purpose (not dual implement purpose) so you can keep upgrading/improving your implements (otherwise you couldn't possibly have magic items that are both category x and implement category y). They also clearly made very flexible form factor implements like Regalia that can be almost anything. If anything the designers have clearly pointed out that the intention is for flexibility, NOT, hyper restrictive siloed implement functional form factors. The point of view that implement definitions are highly restrictive is a perversion of the class design that is so careful about allowing all kinds of weird esoteric objects to be implements.

Before there was a shield implement the argument I saw from others was ... shield can't possibly be an option for any implement because there is no shield implement and so thaumaturges were never allowed to have shields at all because: 1.) they can't be an implement and 2.) it would drop implement empowerment as having another 1H weapon via shield bash. Now that there is a shield implement the goal posts are shifting to say it must be that and only that. The community can't have it both ways.

Again, take this discussion to the other thread linked in a previous post of mine please.

[Ascalaphus]

Harles wrote:

I'm the only frontline character. The rest of the party is a witch, gunslinger, and rogue.

Once upon a time I was in a Starfinder campaign and our party was a ranged operative, ranged envoy, ranged mystic and my ranged mechanic.

Things weren't going well for us. Just about every fight, monsters would harass us in melee and we'd be spending sooo much of our actions just trying to get out of trouble.

One day we were all a bit gloomy and feeling down about the campaign because fights were really frustrating, and the GM said he was totally fine with it if someone wanted to refurbish their character. So I did; my character walked out into the night a frustrated dude with a rifle, and came back the next morning looking very muscular and a solarian with a flaming sword.

But, his personality and backstory stayed the same. He was still the android who was deeply disgusted by any organic looking food. The sort of person who takes "doesn't want to think about how cute the lamb was that's now a stew" to "doesn't want vegetables where you can still guess what plant they're from". As it turns out, character story and personality are more important for group-feel than precisely what kind of mechanics that character is using.

---

That said, you are the only melee character in this group. Even if you were a super tanky class, that would still be a hard life. But if you switch to something else, your party needs to go make some adjustments too.

I'm curious, which of these sounds appealing to you?

* Maybe someone else in your party is open to switching to a more melee role as well? With two melee characters things can be more fun because you can also teamwork more. One of you could be more the "anvil", tanky, and the other more the "hammer" focused on hitting hard and using the anvil for protection. A champion/thaumaturge team for example can work nicely.

* Maybe you just don't want to play melee anymore? Someone else may have to step up to the plate then though, otherwise your party is going to be in trouble.

* Maybe you do want to play melee, but with a different class. You're high enough level now that you could still mix in the mirror implement by taking a thaumaturge multiclass.

* Maybe you wanna play a different class completely?

* Maybe you want to just streamline your thaumaturge build so you're more free in action economy?

[Squiggit]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You just have to have it match your class fantasy.

TBH I think the class itself has some issues with fantasy.

Like at first read the Thaumaturge sounds very technical, a weird scrappy occultist martial with a collection of esoteric gimmicks, but in practice it's still just very much a kind of standard PF2 martial.

I've had more than a few players like the OP jump on the class with some wild ideas and then get frustrated by how much they end up being just a regular martial striking things.

It's a good class but I think there ends up being some mismatched expectations with the way it sort of looks on the surface.

[Claxon]

Squiggit wrote:

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You just have to have it match your class fantasy.

TBH I think the class itself has some issues with fantasy.

Like at first read the Thaumaturge sounds very technical, a weird scrappy occultist martial with a collection of esoteric gimmicks, but in practice it's still just very much a kind of standard PF2 martial.

I've had more than a few players like the OP jump on the class with some wild ideas and then get frustrated by how much they end up being just a regular martial striking things.

It's a good class but I think there ends up being some mismatched expectations with the way it sort of looks on the surface.

I agree thaumaturges are mostly a martial class. Outside of being able to identify creatures well using one skill, and some flexibility via scrolls if you choose that route (you should because its great), the class is still primarily about striking and half your main class features are about how you can enhance your damage while using sub-par weapons. The implements themselves vary a fair bit in what they can do, but are still mostly about utility or help you at being a martial character.

So Thaumaturge's are really about monster identification, and martial stuff, with a fair dash of utility thrown in depending on how you decide to build. But even though it's martial stuff, it's a sub-par class for being a tank due to the innate lack of heavy armor and 8 hp per level. And unless you choose shield implement, doesn't have innate access to shield stuff.