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Yep, it's a little undertuned. Not to the point of unusability, but enough that the class feels... off. Even at level one, solarians seem to lag behind the other martials despite allegedly being melee specialists. I've noticed a couple of my SFS players (but not all!) walking away from the table feeling a bit disappointed in their characters.
I was the one who checked the math in that one Discord server, so there are numbers to back up my feelings: the class comes close, but it's not quite enough. An extra starting power and slightly more damage would likely close the gap.
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It's really in a rough place, yeah. Extremely low damage but it lacks much in the way of secondary gimmicks either like other low damage martials (i.e. close quarter soldiers, exemplars, etc).
The higher your level, the better they feel because you can start buying new powers, but the lack of any baseline tricks makes the class one of the worst in the game at low levels. It doesn't help that one of your key features, Flare, is something you have to go out of your way to make work effectively.
While the "only str guy in a ranged party" does help make your relative damage look better, that kind of setup also leaves you extremely liable to get mobbed down. The Solarian isn't notably tanky and it's kind of something that doesn't come up in theorycrafting much.
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I agree that the core book version LOOKS under tuned, but works decently on the table top. This is from my admittedly limited experience playing at level 1.
Solar shot is actually good when you are in range (which is more than you'd expect from the talk about "ranged meta"). A +3 attack instead of +4 isn't a big difference in most low level fights, and a flat +4 to damage (from +4 strength) makes that an unusually effective ranged attack. Maybe my guy just rolls well and has only faced soft targets, but I basically ripped through a target a turn in every fight we have had... except one that was a (somewhat scripted) TPK.
I think the bigger issue is that it is very MAD. You need the +4 str and +3 dex to do that, which doesn't leave much for putting on other stats. You'll be locked in on being good at str and dex skills, and maybe have a +2 in a decent mental stat if you play a 3 stat race.
Also so many of it's special "solar effect" only apply on crit, which seems like a "win more" feature that doesn't actually help in hard situations.
I'm told it feels even better at higher levels, though I have my doubts. Getting the multiple crystal sets to upgrade your solar weapon(s) and solar flare as well as armor (and likely a shield, you'll need it not to get mobbed down as a solo front liner) to stay at level, seems like it would strain and surpass typical wealth. And the effects gained from orbital crystals seem both weaker and less reliable than those from mods, often being tied to one attunement.
As to fixes, I do think they could use ... something more. Possible ideas:
- Solar Crystals should apply to ALL solar attacks, so you don't need to keep up on 2/3 sets of them.
- Solarian gets choice of increased proficiency with either one attunement or the solar weapon / solar flare as class feature. This gives "sub classes" that are more proficient with one attunement or with melee / ranged fighting, brings those crit effects into play more often, and is a simple way to give the 10-20% damage boost people say the class needs. It is especially appropriate to a class that will often be striking in melee without any aid from allies for flanking.
- All Solar Attacks should have Boost as an option (d10 for weapon, d8 for flare). It is SILLY that (all else equal) using a Painglave can easily be more effective than using your solar weapon.
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I think this is definitely a side-effect of discord discussions vs play experience.
Not to hurl dueling anecdotes at you or anything, but the only reason I checked the math is because I noticed a handful of solarian players struggling. I wanted to confirm that I wasn't imagining things.
Again, I don't think it's so undertuned that it's unplayable--and the playstyle it enables is legitimately fun and flashy and cool--but there is a problem, enough that I want to experiment with some homebrew tune-ups to see if I can nail the feel.
It's awesome that you're having fun with the class as-is. I've personally had some great times with "bad" classes myself (to the point that I legitimately had no idea what the community's problem was), but I still think solarians could use a little boost, preferably an official one for my SFS players' sakes.
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I think this is definitely a side-effect of discord discussions vs play experience.
I was pretty unhappy with the playtest version, but when I saw it in play, it just kind of ripped through enemies like hot butter- the player had a great time. And now, the final release version is even more fun.
Even tho it has a smaller flat damage boost than most PF2E martials, the comparison would probably be more like the Exemplar- another "stance dance" class that doesn't have their damage boost always on.
But there is a damage boost that you're taking for granted- the rarity of your strength modifier damage in SF2E. I noticed that the Solarian really feels good at a Starfinder 2e table when you're just consistently putting out higher flat damage than everyone else.
They also offer so much more battlefield control, through both natural athletic maneuvers as well as the graviton rider. Even a melee soldier inflicting suppressed and tripping targets can't pin people down like you.
I'm sure they may not feel as good at a table with a Fighter+Barbarian+Exemplar, but I think they make a lot of sense in the context they were made for.
Agreed with this assessment - I just got done with my first Society game as one with a Solar Shield, and even when my dice weren't hot, I was consistently dealing damage to enemies while soaking up attacks/damage from them so my squishier allies didn't have to.
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Yes, and this was noted in the playtest as well. Making the class more like a Fighter and stripping their core features of their more unique powers I think compounded the issue by making feel them even less unique until they pick up a few feats. The class in my opinion still struggles with ranged opponents, still struggles to tank, and pales in comparison to Pathfinder classes when it comes to melee-grade damage output. I'm not really certain why I'd pick a Solarian over a Soldier at the moment.
The thing about the exemplar comparison is that the exemplar gives up raw damage in order to pick a handful of sometimes extremely powerful ikon abilities instead (some of which you can even use to make yourself a better damage dealer if you want).
The Solarian has nothing like that. You have zero special powers in your base kit. You get a couple okayish weapons and reactive strike. Oh and your damage gimmick is worse until level 8 too.
I think the bigger issue is that it is very MAD. You need the +4 str and +3 dex to do that, which doesn't leave much for putting on other stats. You'll be locked in on being good at str and dex skills, and maybe have a +2 in a decent mental stat if you play a 3 stat race.
a 4 str/3 dex solarian is also going to have pretty low con and wis, which is potentially a lot of trouble for a class that needs to be kind of a tank.
You can do like 4/3/2/1 if you're a shobhad or kasatha with the right background but that's decimating your ancestry and background options, which is not great either.
The other alternative is leaning on your armor so you can get away with +1/+0 Dex and more Con/Wis, but then you've thrown Solar Flare right out the window, which also feels awful. Brutal trait where, Paizo?
Beg your GM to let you take Starlit Sentinel for ranged attacks with your solar weapon maybe.
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I'm not really certain why I'd pick a Solarian over a Soldier at the moment.
The following is theory crafting and not experience (I haven't actually played the Solarion in question, jut built it) but here is my answer for L1 (I'm playing in SFS and at the moment only L1 and L2 characters are playing).
1) The Str +4 with a D10 reach or D12 weapon vs everybody elses +3 or the operatives dinky little finesse weapon (I'm not using the silly Solar Weapon, of course, which is disappointing but an actual 2 handed weapon is just way better).
2) Stellar Rush, especially with a creature with a fly speed, gives INSANE mobility. Ranged combat you say? I am my own weapon :-). 70 feet at level 1 for a Dragonborn with 2 actions
3) The insanely cool Graviton attuned pull. As far as I can see there is nothing stopping me dragging them into the air and just dropping them.
4) Reactive Strike at L1 is great.
I'm not sure that it beats out a Pathfinder 2 fighter (or other martial) but I don't think that comparison matters. In most campaigns I won't have the option of playing a Pathfinder 2 fighter. It certainly compares just fine with an Operative or Soldier.
As for comparing with the Envoy, if you're going to spend 2 actions it is best to just boost your weapon.
I quite dislike that my planned character is ignoring his Solar Weapon and almost completely ignoring his Solar Flare, But I think a flying Stellar Rushing melee sort is quite viable and fun. He doesn't need much Dex so he can spend some stat points on having something to do outside of combat.
I'm not really certain why I'd pick a Solarian over a Soldier at the moment.The following is theory crafting and not experience (I haven't actually played the Solarion in question) but here is my answer for L1 (I'm playing in SFS and at the moment only L1 and L2 characters are playing).
1) The Str +4 with a D10 reach or D12 weapon vs everybody elses +3 or the operatives dinky little finesse weapon (I'm not using the silly Solar Weapon, of course, which is disappointing but an actual 2 handed weapon is just way better).
2) Stellar Rush, especially with a creature with a fly speed, gives INSANE mobility. Ranged combat you say? I am my own weapon :-). 70 feet at level 1 for a Dragonborn with 2 actions
3) The insanely cool Graviton attuned pull. As far as I can see there is nothing stopping me dragging them into the air and just dropping them.
4) Reactive Strike at L1 is great.I'm not sure that it beats out a Pathfinder 2 fighter (or other martial) but I don't think that comparison matters. In most campaigns I won't have the option of playing a Pathfinder 2 fighter. It certainly compares just fine with an Operative or Soldier.
As for comparing with the Envoy, if you're going to spend 2 actions it is best to just boost your weapon.
I quite dislike that my planned character is ignoring his Solar Weapon and almost completely ignoring his Solar Flare, But I think a flying Stellar Rushing melee sort is quite viable and fun. He doesn't need much Dex so he can spend some stat points on having something to do outside of combat.
How are you pulling enemies at level 1? Black Hole is a level 4 feat.
Also, Stellar Rush is certainly very good at closing gaps, but contrast this with the Fighter's Sudden Charge, which lets you Strike an enemy if you get in reach of them. Reactive Strike is good, but similarly a Fighter can do that with a +2 to their attack roll. If you're going to be ditching your solar weapon and relying on Reactive Strike and a gapcloser feat to do the heavy lifting, you might as well just pick a Pathfinder Fighter at that point.
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If you're going to be ditching your solar weapon and relying on Reactive Strike and a gapcloser feat to do the heavy lifting, you might as well just pick a Pathfinder Fighter at that point
As I said, that isn't an option in SFS and won't be an option in many campaigns (certainly won't be in any campaign I run).
As to Stellar Rush, I see no limitation on the Graviton pull that restrict it from pulling somebody vertically up into the air. Admittedly, I can imagine some GMs not allowing it but it seems to be RAW as far as I can tell.
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I had a player use Stellar Rush this weekend, and not knowing it, they totally bypassed the creature's special attack by pulling it closer, and unlike a fighter charging to make an attack, pulling the creature closer made it easier for the rest of the party to attack it.
I personally can't say how it compares to the playtest version, but locally, people are having fun with the class.
As to Stellar Rush, I see no limitation on the Graviton pull that restrict it from pulling somebody vertically up into the air. Admittedly, I can imagine some GMs not allowing it but it seems to be RAW as far as I can tell.
The target is pulled directly towards you with Stellar Rush, so pulling them to a space above you is unlikely to be that unless they were already vertically above you. This isn’t a free unlimited Reposition, and I wouldn’t bank on that expectation.
As to Stellar Rush, I see no limitation on the Graviton pull that restrict it from pulling somebody vertically up into the air. Admittedly, I can imagine some GMs not allowing it but it seems to be RAW as far as I can tell.The target is pulled directly towards you with Stellar Rush, so pulling them to a space above you is unlikely to be that unless they were already vertically above you. This isn’t a free unlimited Reposition, and I wouldn’t bank on that expectation.
While that would be generally true, Pauljathome had mentioned that he would be using Flying on a Dragonborn, so IMO at least, he could, indeed, pull creatures up and then drop them.
While that would be generally true, Pauljathome had mentioned that he would be using Flying on a Dragonborn, so IMO at least, he could, indeed, pull creatures up and then drop them.
What, 10 feet? You’re only pulling enemies within 15 feet of you, so you’re not exactly dropping them much farther than they already are in the near-totality of cases.
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Alright, so trying to summarize everyone's gripes so far: damage is a little too low, weapon traits are a little too stingy, and special moves (locked behind class feats) are spread a bit too thinly to make up for either shortcoming. So we're left with a kit that could be great if at least one of those things were better, but all aspects being just slightly undertuned makes for an underwhelming package. Does that sound right?
This is for the people complaining, mind you; it looks like plenty of folk are satisfied with the kit as-is.
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This mught be a bit rambly because I'm going to be working out my thoughts here, but the issue I see is that solar manifestations take up a lot of page space while not actually doing a lot. Let's use Guardian, Barbarian, and Fighter as points of comparison at 1st level. Aside from standard martial abilities like two good saves, proficiency with martial weapons, medium armor, and a 1st level class feat
-Guardian gets 2 extra HP, heavy armor, Reistance to damage, Shield block, two abilities to protect allies, and ever-ready to ensure those abilities are always available.
-Fighter gets expert in perception and weapons, heavy armor proficiency, reaxtivr strike. and shield block.
-Barbarian is expert in perception, gets Rage (A damage boost and source of temporary HP with a generally negligible drawback), and their subclass ability (increasing the damage further or providing a different benefit like an unarmed artack that's better than any one-handed weapon)
A Solarion gets one additional skill, is expert in perception, and gets their solar manifestations. What do they do? Well... not a lot individually
-Solar Weapon: A solar weapon is marginally better than a martial weapon one handed, but it's not great as an advanced weapon equivalent because they don't let you get damage boosts like deadly, fatal, or even just forceful. You can get the mediocre twin ability with a feat, but as someone playing a Red Mantis Assassin believe me when I say Twin very rarely goes off at low levels. Things die in one hit or you miss one of your attacks. The attunement abilities are... situational. Photon's damage bonus is very weak early on. While it reaches an exemplar's damage bonus by level 7 and keeps up afterwords, at the levels many people are playing SF2 at right now, it's a joke. Graviton is better, but situational- It's great for protecting your backline or bullying ranged enemies in combination with solar flare, but doesn't do anything visible if the enemy stays and fights you or if your party is the type to stay bogged down in a melee.
-Solar Flare: It's... an acceptable thrown weapon. One that doesn't take a hand and has an alternative critical effect, but that's it. You could carry around a javelin and a trident and get more or less the same effect.
-Solar Nimbus: A weird reactive strike. But the powerful ability to disrupt spells and reloading is replaced with a saving throw against a condition (which your critical specialization might just give the enemy anyway after 5th level if you made your solar weapon a spear).
That's a page and a half to be essentially a weaker fighter with a weird returning trident. Now, you can point to class feats to try and make up for this, but the thing is all martials get class feats, and Solarion's feats aren't really any better than other class's feats.
The class is still performing somewhat at low levels because Strenght Martials are arguably overpowered at the lowest levels where the extra damage they do allows them to kill enemies before they get a turn, but if you allow PF2 classes into Starfinder, or Vanguard returns and is in line with Fighter or Barbarian... Solarion's flaws are going to be very obvious.
I had a player use Stellar Rush this weekend, and not knowing it, they totally bypassed the creature's special attack by pulling it closer, and unlike a fighter charging to make an attack, pulling the creature closer made it easier for the rest of the party to attack it.
I personally can't say how it compares to the playtest version, but locally, people are having fun with the class.
Also with more things trying to be in cover in starfinder being able to stellar rush and just yoink everybody out of cover makes all your guys shooting at them have easier shots.
I think my main complaints would be the reach/1d10 options for their weapons should either be one selection cost instead of two or they should have three selection options for their weapons as the recommended builds seems to indicate. The later means you can either have a d8 reach or a d10 weapon and then still have an ability to choose some other boost for it.
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While that would be generally true, Pauljathome had mentioned that he would be using Flying on a Dragonborn, so IMO at least, he could, indeed, pull creatures up and then drop them.What, 10 feet? You’re only pulling enemies within 15 feet of you, so you’re not exactly dropping them much farther than they already are in the near-totality of cases.
So, I pull them up `10 or 15 feet and drop them. Absent them having cat fall, flying or the like they then take 5-7 points of damage (no save) and land prone.
Seems pretty darn good to me.
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Giving the solar weapon keyword soup isn't the answer. It won't adress the numbers issue, and would probably just lead to every solar weapon having reach.
Honestly I'd prefer if they just let Solarions choose any martial melee weapon they have access to as a solar weapon, and let them choose advanced weapons with a feat (Probably with the caveat that thr appearance of your solar weapon doesn't have to perfectly match your chosen weapon's stats. Let the Gnomish Flickmace Solar Weapon be an actual yo-yo of death, for example). Let a Vesk Solarion's Doshko solar weapon actually be a Doshko. That would save page space for more interesting attunement effects for the solar weapon.
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This is for the people complaining, mind you; it looks like plenty of folk are satisfied with the kit as-is.
While I'm quite satisfied with the kit as it is, I'd prefer it if Solar Weapon was improved just enough so that I actually used it instead of a normal weapon. As it currently is it is great if you want to do a sword and board build (D8 reach weapon rocks). But if you're doing a 2 handed build the existing weapons are just so much better.
I'm not asking for it to be much better than a normal weapon. The attunement features are worth something (not a lot, but something).
So, at L1 for no investment in feats I'd be quite happy if I get 1d8 and one of the following:
Modular AND Reach
1d10 Parry
Boost 1d8 reach
(yeah, I obviously chose the best martial weapons and just dropped the damage die one step). With something like the above, you're slightly behind in damage at L1-3, equal with Photon damage at L4-5, and slightly ahead at L6+.
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I've mentioned it before but I think it deserves a post of its own.
When evaluating the Solarion I think whether or not you consider Starfinder its own game or just an add on to Pathfinder (or think all of Pathfinder is an add on to Starfinder) is going to greatly influence things. This alone may be responsible for nearly all the differences of opinion on this thread.
Right now NOBODY has a clue what percentage of games will be pure Starfinder, what percentage will be "Mix and match totally freely, go wild" and what percentage will be "Starfinder but some Pathfinder stuff can creep in as well". Except all 3 of those types of games WILL exist.
Personally, I strongly believe that we should be evaluating the operative ONLY in terms of Starfinder options. Starfinder is its own game with its own assumptions. So, in that context the Pathfinder 2 fighter is as irrelevant as the Starfinder 1 Operative or the Mutants and Masterminds PL10 Superhero (spoiler, the Mutants and Masterminds superhero kicks all the others asses).
But if we ARE going to bring in all of Pathfinder 2 surely its a little unfair to compare it against what is considered pretty much universally the best Martial class in Pathfinder 2e in terms of doing damage, the Fighter. Yeah, it might well lose in that comparison. But so do most Pathfinder 2e martials.
And you can't just do a straight single target damage comparison because the Solarion does a fair bit more (or can, at least) with its feats. Its got decent AoE, decent control, etc.
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1) Should SF2 classes becompared to PF2 classes? When it comes to the basic math, yes, because creature design uses the same numbers. If a class is failing to meet previously established benchmarks, it needs to make up for that elsewhere.
As for why I picked Fighter, Barbarian, and Guardian? I did so because their core class features largely don't do things besides fight. Rangers can get pets and hunt prey has out of combat utility, Champions can get a heal, rogues are skill monkeys, etc. The Base solarion also does nothing but hit things, so I compared like to like.
I don't factor class feats into this analysis because they should be of equal value given that archetypes exist, so a fighter feat should be worth as much to a fighter as a solarion feat of the same level is to a solarion, or an operative feat of the same level to an operative. In practice that's not entirely true, and some classes like Psychic and Wizard have notriously poor feats, but a class having most of its power in its feats is dangerous given multiclass archetypes exist.
I also don't think Solarion is intended to be weaker in melee than PF2 classes because if that were the case they'd mention as much in the compatibility chapter of GM Core. For that matter, the high end melee weapons in SF2 are actually somewhat above the curve (Boost on the Fangblade and Pain Glaive is amazing, and PF2 has never allowed the parry trait onto a d10 weapon, much less a d12, so the Doshko is also ahead of the curve). And my experiences with a whirling swipe soldier suggest they'd fit nicely into a Pathfinder 2e party, so the issue seems to specifically be with the Solarion.
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So, I pull them up `10 or 15 feet and drop them. Absent them having cat fall, flying or the like they then take 5-7 points of damage (no save) and land prone.Seems pretty darn good to me.
That would be pretty amazing, but Stellar Rush gives a fort save.
So, in that context the Pathfinder 2 fighter is as irrelevant as the Starfinder 1 Operative or the Mutants and Masterminds PL10 Superhero (spoiler, the Mutants and Masterminds superhero kicks all the others asses).
That's a bit of a leap. M&M is a completely different and entirely incompatible game. PF2 and SF2 are literally the same core system with interoperability being part of the marketing.
That said, I don't think PF2 makes the Solarian look bad specifically, SF2 in general is pretty high power after all, the PF2 comparisons are just useful because some of the most directly comparable classes in terms of design.
When evaluating the Solarion I think whether or not you consider Starfinder its own game or just an add on to Pathfinder (or think all of Pathfinder is an add on to Starfinder) is going to greatly influence things. This alone may be responsible for nearly all the differences of opinion on this thread.
I also feel like the constant demurring to these hypotheticals is a bit obnoxious... like several people have come in mentioning Solarians doing low damage or being squishy or otherwise struggling at actual tables. To come back with "well the only reason you don't like it is you're looking at PF2" or "this is the difference between discord chat and table play" is just pretending those experiences don't exist. You can like the Solarian without pretending anyone who disagrees is just ignorant of how the game works or only speaking in hypotheticals.
And you can't just do a straight single target damage comparison because the Solarion does a fair bit more
Not baseline it doesn't. Out of the box you get reactive strike, your unique weapon options, and your choice of a damage modifier or a limited form of difficult terrain. A Solarian in photon mode has no more utility than a barbarian.
So, I pull them up `10 or 15 feet and drop them. Absent them having cat fall, flying or the like they then take 5-7 points of damage (no save) and land prone.
Seems pretty darn good to me.
The pull itself requires a Fort save, though, and unlike most save effects it does nothing on a success. Again, compare to Sudden Charge, which lets you make a Strike that can deal far more damage.
Honestly I'd prefer if they just let Solarions choose any martial melee weapon they have access to as a solar weapon, and let them choose advanced weapons with a feat (Probably with the caveat that thr appearance of your solar weapon doesn't have to perfectly match your chosen weapon's stats. Let the Gnomish Flickmace Solar Weapon be an actual yo-yo of death, for example). Let a Vesk Solarion's Doshko solar weapon actually be a Doshko. That would save page space for more interesting attunement effects for the solar weapon.
This is the way, in my opinion. I fully agree that the Solarian's solar manifestations take up a huge amount of text space to essentially just work as free starting weapons, when in my opinion it would be a lot more economical and more conducive to diversity to let the Solarian choose from existing weapons. In addition to this, I think the class would be a lot better off if it just offered a fly Speed from level 1 (or a bonus to an existing fly Speed if you have one), and that simple set of changes and additions would in my opinion allow the class to become much more functional from the start.
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I also feel like the constant demurring to these hypotheticals is a bit obnoxious... like several people have come in mentioning Solarians doing low damage or being squishy or otherwise struggling at actual tables. To come back with "well the only reason you don't like it is you're looking at PF2" or "this is the difference between discord chat and table play" is just pretending those experiences don't exist. You can like the Solarian without pretending anyone who disagrees is just ignorant of how the game works or only speaking in hypotheticals.
This is an extremely unfair criticism. I just went back and reread this entire thread. There is exactly one person (HolyFlamingol) who is explicitly basing their somewhat negative opinion on actual play experience. There are 5 people (justnobodyfqwl, Wendy_Go, Gazragar, Driftbourne. thisteldown) who are explicitly basing their positive opinion on actual play experience.
For everybody else it is totally unclear whether their opinion is based on play experience or just theory crafting. And while I could very, very definitely be wrong some peoples posts certainly seem to me to be based on theory crafting more than on actual play experience (note, I explicitly stated that my hypothetical Solarion IS based on theory crafting. I'm NOT trying to take any high ground here).
All I was claiming in my post is that theory crafting is quite likely to come to different conclusions depending on whether or not you are comparing just within Starfinder 2e or whether you're comparing with Pathfinder 2e as well.
I don't factor class feats into this analysis because they should be of equal value given that archetypes exist
That is a position that I vehemently disagree with. Some classes (in both PF2 and SF2) very definitely get more out of their class feats than do others. And while it is true that most of a classes low level feats can eventually be poached higher level ones cannot and there is a substantial difference between paying 3 feats to get an archetypes L4 class feat at L8 and getting it for 1 class feat at L4.
As an aside, I just glanced at the Solarian Dedication. Man, that is an awful Dedication. You get nothing at all from it of any value from it. So clearly Paizo thinks the feats the Archetype makes valuable are worth what is essentially a feat tax
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So, I pull them up `10 or 15 feet and drop them. Absent them having cat fall, flying or the like they then take 5-7 points of damage (no save) and land prone.
Seems pretty darn good to me.
The pull itself requires a Fort save, though, and unlike most save effects it does nothing on a success. Again, compare to Sudden Charge, which lets you make a Strike that can deal far more damage.
For 2 actions I think the results reasonably comparable. One does more damage to a single target on a hit, the other can move you an extra 20 ft and potentially affects several targets (more than 2 is unlikely, but possible. 2 is quite likely) if they fail a Fort Save.
But I think that Stellar Rush definitely wins when you can afford to spend 3 actions on it plus strike as opposed to Sudden Charge + Strike (and this will be a great deal of the time. The entire purpose of both feats is to let you get into the battle). I'd much rather have the graviton effect than a Map-5 attack.
Now I've admittedly taken a possibly unintended use case that some GMs may disallow. But, RAW I'm pretty sure it works. Which means that I think I can rely on it in SFS which is where most of my play will be coming from for the forseeable future.
That's fair, sorry, just between that comment and justnobodyfqwl's earlier one about 'discord chat' it felt like there was a strong undercurrent of implying certain people don't know what they're talking about.
I think the class feat discussion is a tricky one. Class feats are absolutely important to a character's growth and some classes have really impactful feats. Solarian is definitely one here that derives a lot of identity and power from feat choice.
But at the same time I think we need to be able to evaluate classes in a somewhat feat agnostic way too because there are lots of feat choices and if we narrow our description down to "this specific feat utilized in this way is strong" then we're talking less about the health of the class overall and more about this one specific quirky build being good, which is materially different to me and suggests there are lot of traps and fail states you could accidentally stumble into.
For 2 actions I think the results reasonably comparable. One does more damage to a single target on a hit, the other can move you an extra 20 ft and potentially affects several targets (more than 2 is unlikely, but possible. 2 is quite likely) if they fail a Fort Save.
But I think that Stellar Rush definitely wins when you can afford to spend 3 actions on it plus strike as opposed to Sudden Charge + Strike (and this will be a great deal of the time. The entire purpose of both feats is to let you get into the battle). I'd much rather have the graviton effect than a Map-5 attack.
Now I've admittedly taken a possibly unintended use case that some GMs may disallow. But, RAW I'm pretty sure it works. Which means that I think I can rely on it in SFS which is where most of my play will be coming from for the forseeable future.
I'd say the reverse is more true in practice -- the chances of you affecting even one target, let alone several at a time, are not that great, and often the extra Speed is overkill. A MAP-5 Strike I'd say is still generally preferable to a Fort save to deal potentially 5 extra damage, particularly as the Strike scales in damage, whereas this strategy of yours does not. Make no mistake, Stellar Rush does have its uses -- being able to pull enemies towards you can be quite useful and comboes well with a Soldier or Witchwarper -- but I don't think that level 1 feat makes up for what the core class lacks.
This is an extremely unfair criticism.
I do think Squiggit has a point, though. My own negative experience with the Solarian is based not only upon comparisons to PF2e, but upon my own play experience of the class. I posted an extensive write-up of my playtests of the class outlining my issues with it specific to Starfinder, and playing the release version of the class hasn't made me feel like any of the major criticisms have really been addressed. The class is effectively taxed to go for a flying ancestry and Stellar Rush at level 1 to be able to close gaps consistently, and even when they do get in range, they still struggle from their lack of durability and anemic core chassis. As noted by HolyFlamingo!'s own assessments, I'm not the only one basing my opinion on play experience either. Acting like comparisons to Pathfinder are the sole foundation of criticisms being made of the Solarian here is dismissive of these play experiences, and is made all the more obnoxious by the fact that you're basing your own opinion off of theorycrafting and wishful thinking.
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That's fair, sorry, just between that comment and justnobodyfqwl's earlier one about 'discord chat' it felt like there was a strong undercurrent of implying certain people don't know what they're talking about.
Thank you for that.
To the extent that I was contributing to that undercurrent I apologize, It was unintentional.
I think the class feat discussion is a tricky one. Class feats are absolutely important to a character's growth and some classes have really impactful feats. Solarian is definitely one here that derives a lot of identity and power from feat choice.But at the same time I think we need to be able to evaluate classes in a somewhat feat agnostic way too because there are lots of feat choices and if we narrow our description down to "this specific feat utilized in this way is strong" then we're talking less about the health of the class overall and more about this one specific quirky build being good, which is materially different to me and suggests there are lot of traps and fail states you could accidentally stumble into.
Oh, fine. Make perfectly reasonable and fair and correct points :-).
You've left me with nothing to say :-). I think we're pretty much in agreement.
In fact, this entire thread is largely arguing around the edges. I think we all pretty much agree that the Solarian is at least functional and at least most of us think it could use some improvements.
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I do think Squiggit has a point, though. My own negative experience with the Solarian is based not only upon comparisons to PF2e, but upon my own play experience of the class. I posted an extensive write-up of my playtests of the class outlining my issues with it specific to Starfinder, and playing the release version of the class hasn't made me feel like any of the major criticisms have really been addressed
I sympathize. That is INCREDIBLY frustrating. One of the main reasons that I've pretty much given up on playtesting. Rightly or wrongly from my point of view it very much seems like Paizo just ignores lots and lots of feedback and I'm just wasting my time.
In my defence, I had no clue that your opinion was based on actual experience. You did not state that in this thread. In fact, from the tone of your comments you are one of the people who I suspected was theory crafting.
a 4 str/3 dex solarian is also going to have pretty low con and wis, which is potentially a lot of trouble for a class that needs to be kind of a tank.
I think the bigger issue is that it is very MAD. You need the +4 str and +3 dex to do that, which doesn't leave much for putting on other stats. You'll be locked in on being good at str and dex skills, and maybe have a +2 in a decent mental stat if you play a 3 stat race.
Yes, that's why it is a big issue. That and having limited skill options. It's not so much that this makes for BAD builds, as there's a pretty narrow range of good ones since your 2 best stats are fixed.
As I recall, for mine I went Android with 4 str, 3 dex, 0 con, 1 int, 2 wis, -1 chr. His fortitude save is pretty bad, but perception and reflex are fine. I use a Phase Shield to good effect to keep my AC up so the HP hit isn't awful, and will probably go heavy armor at level 2 if I keep playing them past "Murder in Metal City". My initiative is actually quite decent because I'm a Disciple of Triune. Obviously I keep my mouth shut when there's talking to be done...
-Solar Weapon: A solar weapon is marginally better than a martial weapon one handed, but it's not great as an advanced weapon equivalent because they don't let you get damage boosts like deadly, fatal, or even just forceful....<snip>
-Solar Flare: It's... an acceptable thrown weapon. One that doesn't take a hand and has an alternative critical effect, but that's it. You could carry around a javelin and a trident and get more or less the same effect.
The Solar weapon can be a d8 one hand reach weapon, which is something you can't do any other way I know of. That's nice in combination with Solar Nimbus, for obvious reasons. Yes, there are better two hand weapons but...
The Solar Flare doesn't require a hand and doesn't need to be readied or retrieved. That makes it VERY good thrown weapon, on par with one that has a built in returning rune and quickdraw feat and free hand trait.
You can combine the two items above with a worn shield. I use a phase shield so I even STILL have a free hand for spell ampules or battle medicine.
So yeah, the Solar Manifestations are actually pretty good, though there are obviously things they can't do as well as conventional weapons. If you play a Solarian, you are heavily incentivized to stick with what they do uniquely well, which depends on using a lot of small benefits in combination, not making MAX POWA from any one feature.
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But at the same time I think we need to be able to evaluate classes in a somewhat feat agnostic way too because there are lots of feat choices and if we narrow our description down to "this specific feat utilized in this way is strong" then we're talking less about the health of the class overall and more about this one specific quirky build being good, which is materially different to me and suggests there are lot of traps and fail states you could accidentally stumble into.
I think "there are lot of traps and fail states you could accidentally stumble into" actually describes the Solarian class balance pretty well. It can do quite well or very badly depending on build choice and play style, and it is not always obvious which choices will give which result. Making it especially bad is that it is a "cool vibes" class that LOOKS easy to build and play, so appeals to a lot of new players.
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I sympathize. That is INCREDIBLY frustrating. One of the main reasons that I've pretty much given up on playtesting. Rightly or wrongly from my point of view it very much seems like Paizo just ignores lots and lots of feedback and I'm just wasting my time.
In my defence, I had no clue that your opinion was based on actual experience. You did not state that in this thread. In fact, from the tone of your comments you are one of the people who I suspected was theory crafting.
I think the lesson to learn here is to give people the benefit of the doubt, at least to begin with, and not make judgments based on uncharitable assumptions.
As for Paizo's playtesting process, I personally disagree: I think that in general, at least when it comes to Pathfinder, Paizo is really good at taking feedback. The recent Guardian class is proof of this, as the developers took what was quite possibly the worst-balanced and designed playtest class in 2e history, incorporated player feedback, and released a thoroughly fun and robust end product. I do feel, however, that much less player feedback was incorporated into SF2e's final release: despite over a year's worth of fairly consistent player feedback, the game has released with most of the core flaws that were pointed out from the very beginning, and that includes the flaws with many of its classes like the Solarian. I'm not sure what went wrong, but at the moment I'm hesitant to recommend the game to my friends who have been waiting a long time for a good sci-fi TTRPG, despite personally being really excited for this edition's release.
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I wouldn't call standard martial progression on a martial class "rock solid" so much as part of the bare minimum. Basic stat progression, even one with proficiency bumps on the earlier side of the standard, isn't really the main selling point of a martial class so much as the foundation upon which one lays the actual features that make the class special, and if those bits were missing then the class would be truly dysfunctional. This is also why I generally don't think calling a class "playable" or "functional" really helps evaluate their balance, because it's such a low bar: unless you miss essential bits of the class's core stat progression, which even most homebrewers manage to avoid but which did happen with a few classes in the playtest, your class is always going to be playable in 2e; that doesn't mean it can't be weak. In fact, a class with nothing but this basic progression would be extremely weak, and while the Solarian does have a bit more than that in their core features, it's not actually all that much more on balance.
I do agree with oimandibloons however that the release version of the Solarian presents a quirk that didn't exist in the playtest, which is that the Solarian's feats make them a class with surprisingly good access to AoE, except that AoE is nowhere to be found in their core class features. With the original stellar arrangement features being made into feats, there are quite a few options for AoE damage and crowd control, which in my opinion were one of the selling points of the playtest class, yet the base class basically just Strikes. It doesn't help that the class is quite feat-taxed too, as Solar Rampart is an important pick for AC and they're missing Shield Block by default as well, while needing Stellar Rush for gapclosing, so it's difficult to access those big boom feats when the class is busy getting the basic stuff needed to get off the ground.
I think errata so that the solar weapons actually work like their samples seem to indicate should put them into a pretty reasonable place. It is pretty clear from those samples they were going back and forth on it during their final iterations so I don't think it would be a huge ask to get it to match the sample.
I don't think after letting the solar weapon scale to legendary prof they will give it brutal although possibly with a feat. Honestly could be neat if they add brutal to the feat that unlocks heavy armor. Feat point to go all in on str and toss dex out the window.
I don't think after letting the solar weapon scale to legendary prof
The problem is that's kind of a red herring. Like it's cool, but you're not actually on the legendary track like an operative or fighter, you just kind of get a weird extra bump at the very end of the game.
I would hate to think Paizo is making significant balancing decisions that negatively impact the class across 20 levels because of a feature that only matters at the very end of very certain campaigns. Were that the case I'd rather Solarian just lose legendary prof entirely because it doesn't really fit with their progression and won't matter in the overwhelming majority of play.
I think it’s worth mentioning that a lot of other SF2e classes get major power boosts at 19th level in a way that goes above and beyond the Pathfinder standard: the Solarian gets legendary Strikes, but then the Mystic gets their perfect harmony, the Witchwarper gets their battlefield-wide Quantum Field, and the Operative gets reduced MAP on their Strikes a bit earlier at 17th level. It’s not very consistent or balanced, but it seems to be part of the designers’ intent to have Starfinder’s classes become extra-strong at top levels in a way that doesn’t necessarily relate to their early-game profile. I suspect those top-level power boosts weren’t really factored into the classes’ power budget, and I would rather classes were balanced at both ends of the level spectrum rather than the opposite.
How does the Solarian compare to the Ranger?
A lot of people consider the Ranger Class to pretty much be exactly at the middle of the pack for Martials. The very definition of not exciting but perfectly usuable in all but the most hyper-optimzed campaigns.
If a class is as strong as it or stronger it's probably fine. If it's weaker it needs some help.
So where does the Solarian stand. On par? Above? Or Below?
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So where does the Solarian stand. On par? Above? Or Below?
Definitely below in my opinion, and so for two reasons: the class's starting package isn't amazing, and it gets a lot less as it progresses. At level 1, the Ranger gets Hunt Prey and a hunter's edge, which isn't quite as strong as the features really powerful martials get, but is still at least decent. The Solarian by contrast starts out as a Fighter that trades off their Strength/Dex KAS flexibility, +2 to attacks, Shield Block, and heavy armor proficiency, all of which make a huge difference, for essentially two free starting weapons and Attune, none of which I think really hold up to what gets lost. To compare directly to the Ranger, the class deals less damage than a melee Flurry Ranger due to accuracy differences, doesn't have the range or damage output of a Precision Ranger, and in both cases is a lot less flexible in how they can build.
Over time, the Ranger also gets a lot of nifty core class features, including legendary Perception, legendary Reflex saves, nature's edge, unimpeded journey, free-action Hunt Prey, and their masterful hunter upgrade, all while similarly getting medium armor expertise at 11th level and improvements to their class/spell DC at levels 9 and 17. The Solarian, meanwhile, gets a situational free-action attune on Stellar Resilience, the initiative bonus on Stellar Senses, legendary solar manifestation Strikes at 19th level, master armor prof at level 17... and that's it. Although legendary Strikes is a big upgrade, it's too little, too late in my opinion, and until then the class gets peanuts when they already don't get that much to begin with.
And to be clear: this isn't to say that the Solarian is a worse Fighter in space, because ultimately their feats make the two classes quite different, or at least have the potential to do so. However, I'd say the feats are at best on par with those on other martial classes (and some, like Defy Gravity, are terrible), which means I don't think they really help make up for what the core class lacks. Really, it wouldn't have sent the class anywhere near over the edge to give them a few free AoE feats, nor even to give them what I'd consider essential benefits like starting heavy armor proficiency and Shield Block.