Dark Archive Remaster Speculation

[moosher12]

Offshoot of the Dark Archive Psychic thread, but for all Dark Archive content.

Was making an archer animist, that circumstances made me had to switch to a thaumaturge, and it made me realize, would be nice to see Thaumaturge have an avenue toward two-handed weapons. Or at the very least 1+ handed weapons.

What sort of things do you predict or hope for in the Dark Archive Remastered Edition?

[Mangaholic13]

I've got a couple:

I'm hoping they either clarify whether bows count or not regarding the 1-handed empowerment (maybe also something regarding Weapon Implement and handedness too). They should also clarify about how Ammunition Thaumaturgy reacts when using your Weapon Implement.
I'd also like for the Wand Implement to be a little beefed up.

I hope they make the language regarding Psychic Dueling and the Psychic Duelist Archetype clearer. I like the nature of Psychic Dueling, and I want to see more people use it.
Especially on how to HAVE a psychic duel.

Also, kind of hoping Imaginary Weapon doesn't include the Manipulate trait (but I doubt that will happen).

[NorrKnekten]

I wouldn't get my hopes up on an issue thats already been clarified previously.

A 1+ weapon is always a +1 weapon.
But it fills the requirement of a character wielding a two-handed weapon when used, And the requirements of a one-handed weapon for intrinsic applications and permanent adjustments to it.

It may be possible that some of the requirements in thaumaturge are rewritten but.. as said I dont expect it.

--------

But regardless of your stance on the viability of a bow weapon implement, the main issue really when it comes to any +1 weapon, atleast for thaumaturge. Is that the feat meant to let thaumaturges ignore the free-hand requirement for handling shots, bullet, bolts and arrows while holding their implement. Doesn't help a thaumaturge to handle arrows of any kind as it only allows interact to reload. And I hope this changes.

I'm also guessing we might see Deviant and Aftermath fleshed out a bit more, Those are such a neat and almost entirely forgotten part of the game that it wouldn't suprise me if they made changes to it.

[BotBrain]

I think i've said it before but I'm wondering what will happen to the stuff that's already got a reprint in divine mysteries. Reprinting it again is the obvious choice but there's the tantalising possibility that the space gets used for something else.

Also I say this every time but don't forget these books are special errata, not true remasters. The best we're going to get are numbers tweaks, as with gunslinger and inventor.

[Mangaholic13]

BotBrain wrote:

I think i've said it before but I'm wondering what will happen to the stuff that's already got a reprint in divine mysteries. Reprinting it again is the obvious choice but there's the tantalising possibility that the space gets used for something else.

Also I say this every time but don't forget these books are special errata, not true remasters. The best we're going to get are numbers tweaks, as with gunslinger and inventor.

Fair point, BotBrain. After all, if it was a true remaster, they likely wouldn't care about page count.

[Captain Morgan]

I mean they are book publishers, they always care about page count. But they would certainly have more flexibility if this was a player core style new book instead of glorified errata.

[QuidEst]

"Two-handed Thaumaturge" feels a bit like "armored Monk" to me, but even more so. It's taking the class about holding weird stuff and turning it into the class that doesn't hold weird stuff.

The feat that allows reloading with an implement is fine because it's enabling an already weak style- reload and fire burns a lot of actions. Letting Thaumaturge take its large amounts of flat damage and dump them on a long-range weapon with no action cost and a d8 damage die is just too good. See also: Barbarian not having a way to get rage damage on bows, Rogues needing special setup, and Investigators and precision Rangers both being limited to bonus damage on one attack per round.

Thaumaturge is already more lenient than the other classes. If you're willing to pay the extra actions for what you want to do, you can exploit vulnerability and then put your implement away or drop it for later retrieval. At that point, you've got a custom weakness for your bow against the target. Tome implement is a good choice, since it provides you with most of its benefits while you're not holding it.

If what you actually want is a d12-equivalent (or d10-equivalent without volley) long-range weapon with no action cost using implement's empowerment, with exploit vulnerability on top... we all know that's not balanced, right?

---

Anyway, what I'm hoping for is mainly an extra slot on psychic. I think we might be getting the additional deviant feats we saw in the player's guide remaster for the X-Files AP?

[NorrKnekten]

I don't think anyone's arguing for Implement's Empowerment to be usable with a bow. A bow isn't a one-handed weapon for the purposes of ability requirements as you need both hands to strike with them.

Bringing up how balanced it is does sound like a good point though, Is a reduction in die size equal to deadly d10?

What about the feat cost of needing to invest into weapon familiarity of the repeating hand crossbow vs the single level 1 feat that would let the shortbow be easily usable.

[Squiggit]

I'm normally in the camp "enable every option" because in general enabling fantasies is better than disabling them-

But like, idk, bow is basically the game's default ranged weapon and that makes me not super enthused about 'what if thaumaturge used the same weapons everyone else does' especially when we're talking about a reprint with extremely limited room to make changes both in terms of page count and developer bandwidth.

Maybe a feat in some future splat book.

My big wishes for thaumaturge are improvements to action economy with multiple passive implements, and buffs to some of the dodgier implements and adepts. I hardly ever seen Lantern, Chalice, Wand, or Bell as compared to the other implements in their categories.

Wand especially could use a serious overhaul, imo, it's very weak for a core class feature, especially considering it competes against your inbuilt martial features.

[YuriP]

I'm not against the thaumas being able to use a 1+ or 2-handed weapons but if it do this it also have to be unable to use a second implement without use an action to draw and an action to regrip the weapon (for 2-handed).

[Dubious Scholar]

You get some edge cases with "can a bastard sword be a weapon implement", though that's kind of pointless because Empowerment gives the same damage bonus as two-handing it anyways. But I suppose you could free swap to a 2h grip in that case (I'd allow it anyways)

Whether bows can be a weapon implement is a gray area. They definitely don't work with Empowerment though, which is greatly limiting on them. Shuriken give the same damage output without hitting grey areas because of that (just use a thrower's bandolier), if not the same range. Rotary Bows are also interesting - d8 1h crossbow so it has very good damage at the cost of reload actions.

There's definitely room to buff a few of the weaker implements (bell could use it, for instance). Mirror's Adept tier having friendly fire is awkward for society play, even if the actual damage is negligible (if the implement wasn't already pretty good I'd suggest the shards should trigger Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis, but)

[YuriP]

Wand could be improved to be a better implement too.

[exequiel759]

I would be really happy if we had a "spell attack-like" action for the wand too. It would ideally require 1 action to use and it would nice to pair with the fling magic action for a nice 2A+1A routine. It would also be really cool for a "wandslinger" feeling which I think is what people wanted the wand to be.

[Dubious Scholar]

exequiel759 wrote:

I would be really happy if we had a "spell attack-like" action for the wand too. It would ideally require 1 action to use and it would nice to pair with the fling magic action for a nice 2A+1A routine. It would also be really cool for a "wandslinger" feeling which I think is what people wanted the wand to be.

Would also allow the wand to proc weaknesses. Always seemed odd it didn't really interact with that.

Edit: Actually, would that be enough of a buff to the wand if it just got to trigger the weaknesses from Exploit Vulnerability? (Especially as that damage would be added after halving on successful saves)

[Dragonchess Player]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

exequiel759 wrote:

I would be really happy if we had a "spell attack-like" action for the wand too. It would ideally require 1 action to use and it would nice to pair with the fling magic action for a nice 2A+1A routine. It would also be really cool for a "wandslinger" feeling which I think is what people wanted the wand to be.

Would also allow the wand to proc weaknesses. Always seemed odd it didn't really interact with that.

Edit: Actually, would that be enough of a buff to the wand if it just got to trigger the weaknesses from Exploit Vulnerability? (Especially as that damage would be added after halving on successful saves)

I think the idea with the wand is to use the adept benefit of choosing the damage type with Fling Magic to avoid a resistance/immunity or target a vulnerability; with the extra damage from intensify vulnerability adding a little more oomph. I've tinkered with a concept of a wand thaumature with a multiclassed Cha-caster archetype and using an actual magical wand as the implement. It's an OK ranged option to pair with a weapon.

A tome thaumature with the multiclassed bard archetype (Polymath muse) also works pretty well if you take Basic Muse's Whispers (Esoteric Polymath) to write additional bard spells in the tome and Advanced Muse's Whispers (Versatile Signature) for some extra options with the limited archetype spell repertoire.

Too bad the tome and wand implements don't really have any synergy...

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

I’ve never really thought of the Thaumaturge as “the class that holds weird stuff”. Though that is a pretty succinct description of what they *generally* look like. So I totally understand it. Strangely enough, I always felt Implements kinda…tacked on to give Thaumaturge’s a kind of sub-classy schtick they didn’t really need thematically. I kinda more dug the “bend and warp causality with your weird-ass take on myths, “histories” and superstition that is so strong it makes reality adjust just for you….and whoever you hit”.

Ultimately I found that all pretty boring and so being more about Implements seems much more interesting.

Except the bit about you having to hold them. :p

[Powers128]

I like the idea of the wand being able to trigger weaknesses via exploit vulnerability. It would be pretty strong as a base ability. Sounds more like adept or an intensify effect.

[Squiggit]

Powers128 wrote:

I like the idea of the wand being able to trigger weaknesses via exploit vulnerability. It would be pretty strong as a base ability. Sounds more like adept or an intensify effect.

Pushing it back to adept or intensify means we aren't fixing the problem of baseline wand being terrible though.

Proccing exploit is strong, but it's also something thaumaturges are already expected to be able to do by default and the fact that you're trading away your damage mechanic is one of the reasons the wand is in such an awkward place.

[exequiel759]

Let's assume the wand now has a non-save attack, how could it work? Could it work as a Strike that scales using the runes in your weapon, or instead it should be a spell attack that uses your thaumaturge class DC -10 for the modifier? How could the damage scale in that case?

[Powers128]

Squiggit wrote:

Powers128 wrote:

I like the idea of the wand being able to trigger weaknesses via exploit vulnerability. It would be pretty strong as a base ability. Sounds more like adept or an intensify effect.

Pushing it back to adept or intensify means we aren't fixing the problem of baseline wand being terrible though.

Proccing exploit is strong, but it's also something thaumaturges are already expected to be able to do by default and the fact that you're trading away your damage mechanic is one of the reasons the wand is in such an awkward place.

Idk. I've gotten decent use out of it. I like that it's 60 feet. Maybe just make it d6s and forget about the optional boost.

What's funny is that it might end up nerfed to make it in line with the remastered cantrips.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

I’ve never really thought of the Thaumaturge as “the class that holds weird stuff”. Though that is a pretty succinct description of what they *generally* look like. So I totally understand it. Strangely enough, I always felt Implements kinda…tacked on to give Thaumaturge’s a kind of sub-classy schtick they didn’t really need thematically. I kinda more dug the “bend and warp causality with your weird-ass take on myths, “histories” and superstition that is so strong it makes reality adjust just for you….and whoever you hit”.

Ultimately I found that all pretty boring and so being more about Implements seems much more interesting.

Except the bit about you having to hold them. :p

I think this is basically the exact opposite of what the Devs intended.

I think the Thaumaturge has the exact same problem as the 1e Kineticist: it is going for a very specific and unconventional class fantasy, with ties to pop culture and real myth. However, that meaning is entirely lost, and the entire class really feels like it's built around something it's not.

The 1e Kineticist was supposed to be Carrie or Firestarter, where psychic powers cause elemental force at great cost to the body. However, when the end result is "this is the class that controls all the elements", the class ended up being known pretty exclusively as "y'know, Avatar Benders". And 2e rightfully doubled down on that, instead of trying to pull the class back into "Psychic Trauma Kids".

I used to have a really hard time understanding the Thaumaturge, because I basically agreed with you: it felt like the class was "The Esoteric Secrets And Weakness" Class. The class description paints this really vivid picture of a lot of pop culture characters: Hellsing, Witcher, etc.

And then when you try reading the class, it's...Charisma? And there's all these Implements? And there's a bunch of rules about hands? And I guess the weakness stuff is just a damage rider?

And this is all because it took me like, several years to realize what the Thaumaturge WAS going for. The class is built to be a "Innate Magic Of Everyday Objects" class. It's charisma based, because that's the stat for innate magic. It's so focused on impliments, because it gives you thematic abilities based on the symbolic ideas of everyday objects. And the fact that "symbolic ideas of everyday objects" includes traditional folklore monster weaknesses is, in actuality, a pretty small part of the class and its fantasy.

This is 100% internally consistent, and logical! ....it's also NOT INTUITIVE AT ALL! There are a lot more pop culture monster hunters with a million tricks, than there are pop culture stories about the meaning we assign to objects in our life making them magical. And of course, Pathfinder inherits the old idea that Charisma is the "force of will, innate magic" stat- which has never exactly been intuitive to players.

I think it's actually a VERY unique class fantasy, and one I like a lot. They just made it more oblique than it already was. I would say a VAST majority of people I've seen online have mutually made up an entire idea that it's the "whacky makeup weaknesses b$&@*~#~" class, entirely because it's hard to explain to them "no, it's like, the idea of objects having spirits in classical Japanese myths, but kinda not".

[Squiggit]

I don't really agree at all. I'd say the part you're dismissing is a major component of the class fantasy and represented well (like one look at the iconic and it's pretty clear that monster hunter with a bag of tricks is clearly a big part of the fantasy). There are some hiccups with the implementation, but that's true of everything in PF2.

[exequiel759]

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

It's charisma based, because that's the stat for innate magic.

The thaumaturge is Charisma-based because Charisma is the attribute that represents force of will, and the thaumaturge quite literally changes reality around them by making otherwise mundane objects into powerful implements through their will. This is also why they can create a weakness to exploit, because they are forcing reality into believing "yeah, this guy surely is weak to this". This is also why innate spells and sorcerers are Charima-based as well, because the act of using magic is chaging reality through force of will. This doesn't apply to wizards because they learn through study how to use magic, or in the case of clerics or druids its because a greater power bestows that power into them so its relies more on intuition.

[eachtoxicwolf]

I always justify the Thaumaturgist as that fricking guy down at the drinking hole who knows a bit about everything and is so charismatic he can get everyone talking. It's not a class I would run by default, as I kinda like classes where I can have a bit more free choice of weapon, not just 1h stuff. Or spellcasters, because there's always a use for a spellcaster somewhere