
NorrKnekten |
So, From what I can see there are two counteract checks that are done. Usual counteract rules but remember that Hidden Mind's rank is +1 for this purpose.
First, you should roll a Counteract check against the enemy's Truesight because Hidden Mind tries to counteract the Truesight.
Second, If your Hidden Mind fails to counteract, Then the enemy's rolls a counteract check to see if their Truesight can see through Dissapearance.
If the Hidden Mind succeeds, or the enemy's Truesight fails the counteract check against dissaperance, then Truesight does not function against Dissaperance, but may still function against other effects.
They will only be able to see you if your hidden mind failed, and their Truesight succeeded to counteract their targeted effects.

Teridax |
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I'd say the order is reversed: first, the GM rolls truesight's counteract check to determine whether the creature detects you at all through disappearance, as the effect could very well fail. Only if truesight succeeds does hidden mind then need to try to counteract the effect, potentially causing it to fail to detect you. In both instances, if either check goes your way, then truesight will fail to detect you.

NorrKnekten |
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Yeah, Pretty much. The order does not matter in the grand scheme of things, you know if the second roll is irrelevant in either case.
I just prefer doing it in an order where it does not reveal the result of the secret check and thus would need to roll the second roll regardless if I began with the secret check.

Teridax |

I don't think you should be revealing the result of the secret check until all checks around it are completed, though. Hidden mind doesn't work by saying "you spot something with your revelation spell... [*rolls dice*] oh, wait, no you don't", it messes with the spell before that spell can give you information. Thus, it should similarly not matter for this purpose whether your make the secret counteract check first or second. I also don't see why this would even need to be argued in the first place, either, as the creature with truesight here is a NPC under the GM's control.

NorrKnekten |
Thats not what i'm saying though?
I'm saying that it matters when the GM stops rolling dice if the outcome is determined before all checks are complete, A rather common occurance from my own experience and also as was presented in my original example; That you don't need to roll if Hidden Mind is successful.
By ignoring the second check you give away information about the first. Which has implications if the result of that check isn't open information as the player isn't supposed to be aware of the truesight's result.
I cannot edit my old example, but I can say that the example gives away information a player shouldnt have if the order in the example is reversed, And thus both checks needs to be done regardless of relevance.

Teridax |

Thats not what i'm saying though?
Okay, so could you then please clarify what you meant by this?
I just prefer doing it in an order where it does not reveal the result of the secret check and thus would need to roll the second roll regardless if I began with the secret check.
Because if you're not saying that doing the secret check first would reveal the result, what are you saying here, exactly?
I'm saying that it matters when the GM stops rolling dice if the outcome is determined before all checks are complete, A rather common occurance from my own experience and also as was presented in my original example; That you don't need to roll if Hidden Mind is successful.
By ignoring the second check you give away information about the first. Which has implications if the result of that check isn't open information as the player isn't supposed to be aware of the truesight's result.
I think this continues to miss the point, which is that the order in which you do the checks has no bearing on what you're saying. If you don't roll twice in either case, then you're giving away the fact that the creature has failed to detect you. The monster detects you only if truesight's counteract check succeeds and hidden mind's counteract check fails, which requires both checks to be performed regardless of order.
And thus both checks needs to be done regardless of relevance.
I'm confused, who here is claiming otherwise?

NorrKnekten |
I mean, I'm saying that following the example I gave reveals the result of the secret check if you change the order. Not that the order of the checks themselves reveals it in general or that the GM themselves give this information. It is purely the behavior of the example itself.
My example didn't perform the Secret Truesight check if Hidden Mind succeeded, Since at that point Truesight can't reveal anything regardless of its degree of success.
Most tables I have played at are very open wether a non-secret check succeeded or failed, So the players know if Hidden Mind succeeds, and that at that point Truesight can't see through Dissapearance regardless of its own success, so it is ignored without consequences.
A similar, but unwanted behavior applies if you reverse.
If you only ever ask for Hidden Mind's Check if the secret check was a success, Then you are revealing that the secret check was infact successful. And since Hidden Mind's result isn't secret the players will become aware if they are seen when the dice result is visible, Instead of when the monster begins acting upon seeing them. The way you avoid this behavior is to ask for Hidden Mind's even when you as the GM the secret check failed.
This matters only if you share my preference of not revealing anything about secret checks at all. Which is why I called it just that, a preference.
Had I given a different example such as "Roll both checks, only if Truesight succeeds and Hidden Mind fails does the creature see through Dissapearance" Then order has no impact. That would also be a much cleaner way of handling it, especially if there's multiple effects for Truesight to counteract, but that is hindsight.

Teridax |

Right, but all this ultimately says is that your example is flawed, that your preferences could do with accommodating some exceptions under certain circumstances, and that good sense dictates that in this extremely specific scenario, the better practice would be to roll both checks in secret regardless of outcome, and only at the end of those checks say whether or not the monster detects you.
Independently of this, I do think it is good practice to also follow the order of checks logically, even if it's not of great consequence here: truesight is a counter to disappearance, whereas hidden mind is a counter to truesight. It therefore makes sense to roll the check for the counter only after the effect it's trying to counter has attempted to do its thing, in this case truesight having rolled its counteract check. Once that happens and succeeds, it's up to hidden mind to roll its own counteract check to try once more to make it fail, and because the original check is secret, I'd rule that both checks ought to be rolled in secret and regardless of outcome to not give anything away until the very end.